Good Guy Lucifer Is An Underrated Meme in General Forum

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tkthafm		#661	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 701 01/28/12 10:18 PM	The point of my post wasn't to prove God's existence, but rather to refute the article. Faith aside, the empirical evidence for the Qur'an being perfectly preserved is on my side. Hence claiming a non-human moral authority can't exist because all religious texts are human-created is mere opinion. Claiming all religious texts were human edited is an unsupported assumption. So as you said, we're back to square one. As for the evidence, if you are interested I can refer you to why I personally believe the Qur'an is in fact from God. Accepting/rejecting is of course up to you. Civilize the mind but make savage the body
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Boys Noize		#662	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 3819 01/28/12 10:25 PM	Please post whatever you would like to support your claim. I'm obviously skeptical but let's see it. Keep in mind, I'm operating under the assumption that the evidence to be provided is pretty spectacular stuff given the spectacular claim. I hope we're operating under a similar working definition of what empirical evidence actually is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_research MANCHESTER UNITED FC tumblr / portfolio
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tkthafm		#663	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 702 01/29/12 1:03 AM	Note that I said empirical evidence when talking about the preservation of the Qur'an. As for that, there is plenty, even from secular scholars. This debate is informative/also entertaining: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWK1xv0Bt-A (entire channel has plenty of nice vids) Now, more importantly, as for why I personally believe... there are many angles to look at it from. The literary/linguistic perfection and miracles of the Qur'an (Ofc. knowing Arabic helps but not essential): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaS5NsvZ4yM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWFIS0LCKy0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIOUo0u8eaw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNu3huTMFmA http://www.linguisticmiracle.com/ The scientific... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5h6CNhtVls http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoNEfuEWtXc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiLBGHwX_4c http://quranandscience.com/quran-a-science.html http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html The historical/prophetic... http://www.quranmiracles.com/category/archaeology/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKcsgnoKKTI The Prophet's character/biography... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8UmErRVZk misc... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgj6p3JTLg http://thedeenshow.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2sa5ymA8SE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Hr1_LB3Io http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSI4LyIlNIQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rOn4vYwa0w http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOwA0v026wY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3eJKDmyXrk&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktq_Nz_ABI8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pESXwJYYcGo&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVdkdjzY2Xs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zor1et-rT8c These are just some aspects (tried to choose vids/shorter writings rather than books), and along with the overall message (ofc reading the entire Qur'an http://quran.com/ for yourself is important)/personal experiences are some of the reasons I personally believe. I can't fathom how it would have been possible for an illiterate man 1400+ years ago to have produced the Qur'an (or copied/stole it etc as some falsely claim) and yet it is free from any errors/contradictions... literally sets the standard for the Arabic language, and in fact fixes the errors in other religious texts, and contains various scientific/historical information that was unknown at the time etc. This illiterate man single-handedly changes his entire society in just 23 years (and soon after, much of the world) and Islam continues to have tremendous growth (as prophesized) until this day where it is the fastest growing religion and the only religion where millions have memorized the holy book word for word (God himself stated he would make it easily memorized) and the only holy book that was perfectly preserved (again, God himself stated he would protect the book from human changes). No societies on Earth matched the fairness/justice seen under the first four Caliphs. Also, the beauty of the religion itself. Nothing, no other religion is comparable. For example, Hajj is unparalleled anywhere else in humanity. Literally millions from every country in the world gather together in peace in one place regardless of race/language etc to worship one God, as they do in their respective homes 5 times a day everyday. All the elements of practice/worship are perfection to me and vastly superior to any other religion/methodology, even the simple/overlooked things like the importance of manners & hygiene etc. I don't think this is all coincidence, or the fact that Muslims are THE most religious/faithful/pious of any other group on Earth...http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/03/conflict-theology-and-history-make-muslims-more-religious-than-others-experts-say/. I very actively seek out all alternative explanations/criticisms/attacks/refutations etc and I find absolutely nothing that changes my mind, but my faith only increases. If there is any religion from God, it must clearly be Islam. It covers every aspect of life from the very simple to theology to political/social structure etc. I don't see how a human/humans could have formed the Qur'an/Islam. Ofc there will always be an element of faith, but view/read these materials with an open mind/heart/sincerity and reflect deeply on things, look for errors/contradictions and do your own research (as the Qur'an itself commands us to do so in numerous instances) compare Islam to all other faiths/systems (including secular ones) and come to your own conclusions, however long it takes you. Civilize the mind but make savage the body Last Edited By: tkthafm 01/29/12 1:14 AM. Edited 1 time.
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AntonLaVey		#664	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 19345 01/29/12 4:37 AM	tkthafm wrote: Note that I said empirical evidence when talking about the preservation of the Qur'an. As for that, there is plenty, even from secular scholars. This debate is informative/also entertaining: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWK1xv0Bt-A (entire channel has plenty of nice vids) Now, more importantly, as for why I personally believe... there are many angles to look at it from. The literary/linguistic perfection and miracles of the Qur'an (Ofc. knowing Arabic helps but not essential): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaS5NsvZ4yM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWFIS0LCKy0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIOUo0u8eaw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNu3huTMFmA http://www.linguisticmiracle.com/ The scientific... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5h6CNhtVls http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoNEfuEWtXc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiLBGHwX_4c http://quranandscience.com/quran-a-science.html http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html The historical/prophetic... http://www.quranmiracles.com/category/archaeology/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKcsgnoKKTI The Prophet's character/biography... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8UmErRVZk misc... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgj6p3JTLg http://thedeenshow.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2sa5ymA8SE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Hr1_LB3Io http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSI4LyIlNIQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rOn4vYwa0w http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOwA0v026wY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3eJKDmyXrk&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktq_Nz_ABI8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pESXwJYYcGo&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVdkdjzY2Xs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zor1et-rT8c These are just some aspects (tried to choose vids/shorter writings rather than books), and along with the overall message (ofc reading the entire Qur'an http://quran.com/ for yourself is important)/personal experiences are some of the reasons I personally believe. I can't fathom how it would have been possible for an illiterate man 1400+ years ago to have produced the Qur'an (or copied/stole it etc as some falsely claim) and yet it is free from any errors/contradictions... literally sets the standard for the Arabic language, and in fact fixes the errors in other religious texts, and contains various scientific/historical information that was unknown at the time etc. This illiterate man single-handedly changes his entire society in just 23 years (and soon after, much of the world) and Islam continues to have tremendous growth (as prophesized) until this day where it is the fastest growing religion and the only religion where millions have memorized the holy book word for word (God himself stated he would make it easily memorized) and the only holy book that was perfectly preserved (again, God himself stated he would protect the book from human changes). No societies on Earth matched the fairness/justice seen under the first four Caliphs. Also, the beauty of the religion itself. Nothing, no other religion is comparable. For example, Hajj is unparalleled anywhere else in humanity. Literally millions from every country in the world gather together in peace in one place regardless of race/language etc to worship one God, as they do in their respective homes 5 times a day everyday. All the elements of practice/worship are perfection to me and vastly superior to any other religion/methodology, even the simple/overlooked things like the importance of manners & hygiene etc. I don't think this is all coincidence, or the fact that Muslims are THE most religious/faithful/pious of any other group on Earth...http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/03/conflict-theology-and-history-make-muslims-more-religious-than-others-experts-say/. I very actively seek out all alternative explanations/criticisms/attacks/refutations etc and I find absolutely nothing that changes my mind, but my faith only increases. If there is any religion from God, it must clearly be Islam. It covers every aspect of life from the very simple to theology to political/social structure etc. I don't see how a human/humans could have formed the Qur'an/Islam. Ofc there will always be an element of faith, but view/read these materials with an open mind/heart/sincerity and reflect deeply on things, look for errors/contradictions and do your own research (as the Qur'an itself commands us to do so in numerous instances) compare Islam to all other faiths/systems (including secular ones) and come to your own conclusions, however long it takes you. What do I have to lose by not being Muslim? This is gonna be good TEAM METALHEADS TEAM NIGERIA "This God that I worship, this demon I blame. Conspiring as one, it's exactly the same, it's exactly the same."
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FIREPOWER23		#665	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 2841 01/29/12 7:10 AM	tkthafm wrote: There's no proof the Qur'an was human created or edited.. There's no proof it was created or edited by a deity.
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Mycoldyourdone		#666	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 6676 01/29/12 8:05 AM	40 virgins, duh. cause when we die, where ever we go to we'll still be in human form. do women get male virgins? srs question. what if youre gay? do squirrels get 40 squirrel virgins? not srs question. wait till you see my dick tracy comic book collection
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sillyputty		#667	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 3034 01/29/12 2:13 PM	RKO2004 wrote: sillyputty wrote: Lets be honest here. If you all have a problem with me faking being religious, for a moment, when my life is being threatened, how is that ANY different from you thinking you can believe, for a lifetime, because you don't want to go to hell or be punished? Do you think you can fool an all-knowing god by believing in it, only to avoid punishment? ...unless you're not a total believer...� ...This is why Pascal's Wager (i.e. "better to believe than to not") fails. Putty it doesn't work like that for anyone. Oh really? Where is your proof to back up this claim? �Believer or not. God judges your heart. How do you KNOW this? And if this is true, then I don't go to hell since I think I'm a pretty good person without believing in god. You can say in your last minute of life "Jesus is my lord and savior and I have 100% faith in God!" and I don't think it will change much.� Why not? Hitler was a christian, so does he go to heaven? On top of that, how do you KNOW this will work or not? Its not in your hands is it? And why do you talk on behalf of "god?" Its like if you were a rapper. Some of your friends tail off and stop believing in your ability to make it. Then one day you get your big break and they all come running back around. You're going to ask them where they were during the times where you were down and could have used their support. Well God hasn't dropped a hot christian oriented song in 2000+ years, its time for ya'll to give it up and go back to school and get a degree in communications. Meanwhile god somehow managed to convince the muslims that Muhammed was the right prophet and everyone should follow him...then joseph smith came along with the same thing... God knows who you are through the smiles and sad faces. How do you know what god knows? Are you saying you know as much as god knows? He sees through your works and your words. How do you know this? Or is this just pedantic and obligatory christian poetry that gets drilled into you before you can think of what it really means. if god sees my works and my words then god doesn't have to worry whether or not I believe in it. If your are truly about that life. He'll know. A fair amount of people will not enter the his kingdom. But what about those that kill in god's name? A fair amount of those people may be lifetime church goers. Just like a Husband can spend 50 years with his wife and cheat on her and not sell out to her. Sell out to his wife? What? So can a 50 year church goer cheat on God so to speak. Cheating on god? I was never in a relationship with god...the hell would I "cheat" on it for? You stay with these weird metaphors...�...the christian influence is strong in you, young padwan. RKO2004 wrote: AntonLaVey wrote: RKO2004 wrote: Putty it doesn't work like that for anyone. Believer or not. God judges your heart. You can say in your last minute of life "Jesus is my lord and savior and I have 100% faith in God!" and I don't think it will change much.� Its like if you were a rapper. Some of your friends tail off and stop believing in your ability to make it. Then one day you get your big break and they all come running back around. You're going to ask them where they were during the times where you were down and could have used their support. God knows who you are through the smiles and sad faces. He sees through your works and your words. If your are truly about that life. He'll know. A fair amount of people will not enter the his kingdom. A fair amount of those people may be lifetime church goers. Just like a Husband can spend 50 years with his wife and cheat on her and not sell out to her. So can a 50 year church goer cheat on God so to speak. If God judges your heart you then most Christians are burning in hell for all eternity like Putty and I, FACT Without fear, Christianity would lose most of its followers, you can deny it all you want but it's the truth Quick tid bit about myself. I don't believe because I don't want to go to hell. Hold up. Don't lie now. You said earlier in this thread that you didn't want to go to hell. So if god sent you to hell, would you have a problem with that? �I believe because I feel there is something greater for us all beyond what we see and live. Such as? Feeling something doesn't make it so. You have to be able to talk about, what you mean to talk about. Otherwise you're just rambling. Don't expect others to believe you if you can't express yourself. No I wouldn't want to be without God, so I try to form a greater bond with him and continue to work on obeying his laws. Do you beat your slaves and stone women? So yeah, I fear God and fear being outside of his presence in the afterlife. So you ARE afraid of god. You just said you weren't. Its the fear I had for my mother and grandparents. Its a respect fear. Without respect, where would we be? Respect is not fear. Don't equate the two. Thats the sort of mental delusion that allows abused people to stay in unhealthy relationships...kinda like the one god has over your mind. Its like a pimp controlling the mind of his women. Without the fear of going to jail and being punished, how many more criminals would we have? Fear of prison is different from fear of a consequence that has never been shown to exist or even alluded to. On top of that, most criminals just think god will forgive them anyways, so there is clearly no "fear" in their hearts. What if we just taught people to not be complete buttholes to others? It is what it is in terms of how I'm viewed and depicted. No, thats partially your fault. But I really do love God and have faith that there is something greater awaiting after this world. This is a very dark world no matter how bright that sun is. That sounds really poetic... ...but it doesn't mean anything. Its just more liner notes from the church bulletin that you stole to make yourself sound better without actually saying anything. Do what you say your god does and cut through the superficiality and start answering these questions a little more honestly. tkthafm wrote: Go easy on the Christians.... It's been near two thousand years and they still can't reconcile the concept of God supposedly being 3 yet 1 at the same time� inb4 1+1+1 = 1 � Aren't a muslim? How does it feel knowing that the god of the quran messed up TWICE in�delivering�his "universal truth" by giving it to the jews, then the christians, and then you. Theres a parable about something and throwing stones and glass houses...do you know it? OnTheNephs wrote: *No one benefits anything from these threads,* as it has been said a hundred times, �I do enjoy them though.� My personal inbox says otherwise. Putty why do YOU, or atheists in general, dislike religion?� It can not be wars considering the wars caused by greed, corruption, social systems, faaar outweigh any of the "battles" regarding religion. Not that I will ever condone war, but fighting over tangible presentations of ideas, as opposed to empty and vapid ones, does legitimize one over the other. The idea that religion is the cause of all these wars is purely manipulated by the media. I am sure you are smart enough to know this, or not "smart" but at least resourceful enough to find out that this is the case. Does that make religion more beneficial? The pope has probably led to the birth of millions of babies AND the spread of STDs because of his stance on prophylactics and safe sex practices. Thats just ONE example The state of Kentucky recently cut 50M in education only to give 45M to the "Creationist Theme Park" Religion hinders our collective impact of STEM fields because of their bronze-age ideology that does not allow for new information to be introduced. This can NOT be a serious question. Is it that religious people are bad people? Inherently bad? No. However, when commanded to by your religion, you will do bad things and no question your actions. Your religion makes decisions for you, instead of the other way around. I mean, am I bad because i believe in ALLAH? No. Its what that belief commands you to do VERBATIM that calls into question what you would do when asked. .. but yet you have no concept of bad. Not believing in god doesn't mean I have no concept of morality. This is a flawed concept. There have been religious AND moral codes that predated islam and it would be incredibly ignorant of you to assert this. Morality is defined in the absence of religion and always has been. So what am I? why would i cause some sort of discomfort to you? Islam�justifies�the death of people who don't follow islam. If you disagree with that sentiment, then you're not a muslim. If you do agree with that sentiment, then at least you're being consistent with the teachings of the koran. On one hand you either make things up. On the other hand, you are a blind believer with no sense of empathy or common good. Is it that you think humans can achieve more than what we already have? Yes. Surely religion does not de motivate individuals nor does it kill ambition. *Au-contraire* You can achieve just as much being an aethist doctor, as one named Muhammed, correct? Issac Newton, as brilliant as he was, stopped his research when he found that it too closely challenged the existence of god. Imagine if he didnt have that mental barrier of BS to hold him back. If it is because religion shapes outlooks and those outlooks do not generally approve of yours, there are conservatives, liberals, republicans, democrats, socialism, capitalism (killed way more than religion) and they are all ways of life. Sure. They are all ways of life. But don't impose your way of life on my dollar bill, or my pledge of�allegiance, or force it on a diverse group of people or hold it over the heads of poor people in exchange for food and shelter. People generally use these terms to describe much more than just their political views but also their personal views. And just like there are anarchists who believe those systems are at fault, there are atheists who disprove god. People who talk about political views can actually debunk something. They have problems with actual entities. Anarchists talk about things that actually exist. Religious people...well you get the idea. �So the exploitation of WHOLE continents, people and resources of the earth that Capitalism/Merchantilism caused, yet people still follow them blindly and agree with the system whats your view on that? Nice non-sequitur and red-herring. How does any of this have to do with the existence of your islamic god? Why are you not out there professing your disgust and clear failures with in a system? Because this isn't the topic of discussion. If you want to talk about politics and economics, make a thread on that. MY POINT IS, why is religion given �so much attention when the factors that really affect day to day life for all societies has nothing to do with religion? � � OnTheNephs wrote: There are many reasons not to like religion. Religious bigotry, how religion tries to influence our secular nation, how religion tries to influence the education system, how religion persecutes certain minority groups due to their archaic laws, etc. Come on. Over looking the fact that your nation is not secular, have you literally seen this any where? The church and the gays. Do the actual math and you will realize the gays have much more power than the church in USA, they are neither the minority nor are they persecuted in the birds eye view of things. What else is there? the political and judicial system imposes more on your free rights as a human being than religion ever has. Whats your problem with gay people?� You really don't believe this non-sense do you? Religion helped to justify slavery, then justify the lack of women's rights, then justify the lack of civil rights. Religion stiffled birth control, stem cell research, scientific understanding of the universe, genetics, vaccinations, public finance, government creed Come on man. Religion is used as a pretense for a lot of bigotry and hatred in this country. Don't be so blind to overlook that obvious history. I can't believe you'd try and shift the blame like that. Religion is a cancer. The US is a secular nation that should give no preference to any religion over another. ...In fact, when it comes down to it... I don't CARE what the founding fathers said...Why should one religion or ANY religion take precedent over any other and force it on others?� And the concept of bad. Typical human�behavior�is to associate bad with feelings of guilt, the implicatioin that you can commit actions feeling no guilt, to me, signifies that your understanding of bad is different than mine or the mainstream. Hence why i say you don't believe in the concept of bad. No. Just call it "YOUR" concept of bad. You can't define things only in terms of how YOU define them and then assign them as a complete definition to which we are all responsible to adhere to.� Morality is subjective. And you know this, thats why you don't even follow the entire Quran, but you're smart enough to know what to pick and choose. So much for your "absolute" morality in religion. � tkthafm wrote: The article falls apart right from the start: "Every religious book is written, edited, and printed by humans. All moral opinions, interpretations, and proclamations are human opinions. If there were a huge, glowing set of tablets with commandments engraved on them that descended from the sky accompanied by angels blowing trumpets, and the choice was between following those or making up moral laws on our own, we'd be having a very different debate; but there is no such thing. All moral laws are humanly produced. The question is which set of human-created laws we should follow and why." Simply: No.� Hold up...are you saying that the Quran is any different? The author might as well have written "I personally deem all religious books as being human-created". Better yet, you can summarize his entire "article" as: I don't believe in God, therefore he doesn't exist. I don't believe in god because there is no evidence....much like your faith in the lochness monster. It doesn't mean that the loch ness doesn't exist. There's no proof the Qur'an was human created or edited.. in fact all proof points to the opposite. (unlike all other religious texts). If you want to ignore this and assume it was human created so you can group it together with other texts in one giant clump and write a boring/irrelevant article about churches changing their mind, that's on you; but don't be so pompous/arrogant as to assume you just proved the lack of a moral authority. *Hol' Up!...What?!��* Who wrote the Quran, buddy? Humans? or God?� tkthafm wrote: The point of my post wasn't to prove God's existence, but rather to refute the article. Faith aside, the empirical evidence for the Qur'an being perfectly preserved is on my side. The quran is written in arabic and was limited to a period of time apart from the rest of the world...AND its newer... On top of that, we have preserved chinese texts PREDATING even jewish religions by THOUSANDS of years...does that make theirs more valid? AND other version of the quran were eliminated early in the beginning of the history of the religion by a guy whose name started with a "U" or something. I don't remember, but I know you know EXACTLY who i'm talking about. He burned all the other copies once a new leader came in power. Its well known and don't front like you don't know what i'm talking about.� Oh yeah, it also took TWENTY TWO YEARS to write.� What did muslims do for the first 21 years? Did they just read up until the most recently added sura?� � Hence claiming a non-human moral authority can't exist because all religious texts are human-created is mere opinion. They ARE all human created. Claiming all religious texts were human edited is an unsupported assumption. THEY WERE. So as you said, we're back to square one. As for the evidence, if you are interested I can refer you to why I personally believe the Qur'an is in fact from God. Accepting/rejecting is of course up to you. What you "believe" doesn't make it more factual, true, valid, or real. It either is, or it is not. You need to step out of this circle of logic you always present:� TKTHAFM, you can't post stuff from people who say the Quran is proven to be from god when they already believe the quran is from god. They can't be convinced otherwise. Thats illogical. "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY." --Herman Goering at the Nuremberg Trials Last Edited By: sillyputty 01/29/12 2:16 PM. Edited 1 time.
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tkthafm		#668	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 703 01/29/12 2:24 PM	FIREPOWER23 wrote: tkthafm wrote: There's no proof the Qur'an was human created or edited.. There's no proof it was created or edited by a deity. Refer back to my post. There are mountains of evidence (I even broke it down by category) that show no human (no matter how smart/where he plagiarized from/how many people helped him etc) could have written it. The position that it was human created is ironically the one making the more extreme claim. If it's not from God, then who wrote it ? Muhammad was illiterate, but yet the Qur'an becomes the gold standard for the Arabic language for its beauty, it contains countless scientific/historical facts with not a single mistake (including corrections of the mistakes of previous religious texts). Someone claiming a book is from God is a making a very bold statement, so it would only make sense that the book in question would stand the test of time and be perfect in every form, which the Qur'an is (again, refer back to my post). Civilize the mind but make savage the body
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sillyputty		#669	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 3036 01/29/12 2:41 PM	tkthafm wrote: FIREPOWER23 wrote: tkthafm wrote: There's no proof the Qur'an was human created or edited.. There's no proof it was created or edited by a deity. Refer back to my post. There are mountains of evidence (I even broke it down by category) that show no human (no matter how smart/where he plagiarized from/how many people helped him etc) could have written it. Books... got... written... by... human... hands... before... the... invention... of... the... printing... press... in... Germany... 600... years... after... islam... was... created... The position that it was human created is ironically the one making the more extreme claim. What is the most succinct and direct evidence that "god" wrote it? Don't forget that Arabic is still spoken, unlike the greek, Aramaic, and latin of the early bibles. But dont forget that ancient chinese works are OLDER by thousands of years far better preserved than even some arabic texts. If it's not from God, then who wrote it ? Muhammad was illiterate, but yet the Qur'an becomes the gold standard for the Arabic language for its beauty, Homer composed the Iliad and the Odyssey, is it hard to believe that its said he was BLIND?! ...maybe Zeus helped in write those...or MAYBE someone wrote them for him... But wait...didn't those texts become hallmark works in our understanding of Greco-Roman culture? Or didn't "Shakespeare" plagiarize some of his works? ...good thing he didn't become a hallmark of period English...oh wait, he DID. I wonder where concepts of hell arose before Dante...oh wait, there weren't any! Your answer is, "Well since I don't know who wrote it...then God wrote it!" Bingo! Case solved. Court adjourned. Home before five to see the wife and kids. it contains countless scientific/historical facts with not a single mistake (including corrections of the mistakes of previous religious texts). No. It doesn't. I already showed you in a previous thread how the math it uses to calculate the ratio of the surface area of land to water was off by several orders of magnitude using the numbers YOU provided. Don't be so quick to forget. And thats just one example. Someone claiming a book is from God is a making a very bold statement, and yet you believe it... so it would only make sense that the book in question would stand the test of time and be perfect in every form, which the Qur'an is (again, refer back to my post). Sans the fact it took 22 years to write and has countless revisions and updates to be incorporated through additional texts like the hadiths and other complementary texts. "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY." --Herman Goering at the Nuremberg Trials Last Edited By: sillyputty 01/29/12 2:59 PM. Edited 3 times.
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Peep Game		#670	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 7444 01/29/12 2:52 PM	*Houston Texans Seattle Seahawks Houston* *Rockets* Spurs Supersonics @MegaWuBanga RIDING WITH LEINART
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tkthafm		#671	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 704 01/29/12 3:01 PM	Hopefully some will actually look at the evidence posted. ~~sillyputty wrote:~~ ~~tkthafm wrote:~~ ~~FIREPOWER23 wrote:~~ ~~There's no proof it was created or edited by a deity.~~ Refer back to my post. There are mountains of evidence (I even broke it down by category) that show no human (no matter how smart/where he plagiarized from/how many people helped him etc) could have written it. ~~Books... got... written... by... human... hands... before... the... invention... of... the... printing... press... in... Germany... 600... years... after... islam... was... created...~~ I don't think you understand what the Qur'an is or it's significance in the daily life of a Muslim (IE: how many times a day we recite Quranic verses in congregation, going back to the very first revelation). The Qur'an was meant to be recited and thus memorized immediately by hundreds. To this day millions have memorized the exact same book. This is documented fact. ~~The position that it was human created is ironically the one making the more extreme claim.~~ What is the most succinct and direct evidence that "god" wrote it? Don't forget that Arabic is still spoken, unlike the greek, Aramaic, and latin of the early bibles. But dont forget that ancient chinese works are OLDER by thousands of years far better preserved than even some arabic texts. No other religious text of comparable age is perfectly preserved. Prove otherwise. ~~If it's not from God, then who wrote it ? Muhammad was illiterate, but yet the Qur'an becomes the gold standard for the Arabic language for its beauty,~~ Homer composed the Iliad and the Odyssey, is it hard to believe that its said he was BLIND?! ...maybe Zeus helped in write those...or MAYBE someone wrote them for him... But wait...didn't those texts become hallmark works in our understanding of Greco-Roman culture? Or didn't "Shakespeare" plagiarize some of his works? ...good thing he didn't become a hallmark of period English...oh wait, he DID. I wonder where concepts of hell arose before Dante...oh wait, there weren't any! Your answer is, "Well since I don't know who wrote it...then God wrote it!" Bingo! Case solved. Court adjourned. Home before five to see the wife and kids. Notice how you dodged the question. Who wrote it then ? and where is the proof ? How did he/they/them get the vast amount of knowledge needed to compose this perfect book (IE: Not a single error/contradiction) ? No alternative explanation makes any sense or has a shred of evidence to support it. "Qur'an is a religious book ? God doesn't exist. I'll just ignore all evidence. Case solved. Court adjourned. " ~~it contains countless scientific/historical facts with not a single mistake (including corrections of the mistakes of previous religious texts).~~ No. It doesn't. I already showed you in a previous thread how the math it uses to calculate the ratio of the surface area of land to water was off by several orders of magnitude using the numbers YOU provided. Don't be so quick to forget. And thats just one example. and if you went back to the thread you would have seen how you were wrong and the numbers were correct. The water/land ratio is just one minor example. I posted countless more in this thread. Many confirmed by leading experts in their respective fields (see: Dr. Keith Moore, just one example) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_L._Moore In his article, A Scientist’s Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Qur’an, Moore asserts that "statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Qur'an", and that "the interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago."^[12] Moore affirms that Qur'anic statements regarding human development make it clear that the book is of divine origin, concluding: "This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God or Allah."^{[13] - wikipedia} ~~Someone claiming a book is from God is a making a very bold statement,~~ ~~and yet you believe it...~~ ~~so it would only make sense that the book in question would stand the test of time and be perfect in every form, which the Qur'an is (again, refer back to my post).~~ ~~Sans the fact it took 22 years to write and has countless revisions and updates to be incorporated through additional texts like the hadiths and other complementary texts.~~ Your ignorance is showing. I already provided you with an entire series documenting exactly how the Qur'an was sent down over the 23 (not 22) years. Then immediately memorized/implemented with absolutely no changes. (see debate I posted above) If you are interested in how the Hadith was compiled, you can look into the research of Johnathan Brown, a Hadith scholar who became so impressed with the process/accuracy of Hadith compilation that he later became Muslim at the end of the day, the evidence if never addressed because no one can refute it. No alternative explanations hold water. The Qur'an is undeniably divine. Civilize the mind but make savage the body Last Edited By: tkthafm 01/29/12 3:35 PM. Edited 2 times.
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RKO2004		#672	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 14289 01/29/12 3:39 PM	Putty, I'm not going back and forth with you. I have faith in God. I'm not going to argue and debate with you over that. You can continue to believe what you please. You won. ONLY IN CINCINNATI DOES 14 + 18 = 6
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ATGD7154xBBxMZ		#673	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 6710 01/29/12 3:39 PM	That is probably the quote of this thread. Son thinks it's more likely a being that has not been prove to exist wrote the Quran than human beings who actually do exist Occam's Razor man. Then he has the nerve to claim he posted evidence of it. RKO2004 wrote: Putty, I'm not going back and forth with you. I have faith in God. I'm not going to argue and debate with you over that. You can continue to believe what you please. You won. What's the difference between faith and gullibility?
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sillyputty		#674	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 3040 01/29/12 3:41 PM	tkthafm wrote: Hopefully some will actually look at the evidence posted. ~~sillyputty wrote:~~ ~~tkthafm wrote:~~ Refer back to my post. There are mountains of evidence (I even broke it down by category) that show no human (no matter how smart/where he plagiarized from/how many people helped him etc) could have written it. ~~Books... got... written... by... human... hands... before... the... invention... of... the... printing... press... in... Germany... 600... years... after... islam... was... created...~~ I don't think you understand what the Qur'an is or it's significance in the daily life of a Muslim (IE: how many times a day we recite Quranic verses in congregation, going back to the very first revelation). The Qur'an was meant to be recited and thus memorized immediately by hundreds. To this day millions have memorized the exact same book. This is documented fact. ...SO? I personally don't care what it means to you. I'm being honest. Its like asking if I honestly care what that cast iron pot in your oven means to you. I could care less if its from your great-great-great grandmother or not. To me its a pot thats really old. Now, it would be nice of me to respect it, but no one is obligated to "cherish" things the same way you do. There is also a difference between culture and religion that you're neglecting to address. I only care if what the Quran says is TRUE or FALSE. The amount of people doing something, doesn't make it "True" or not. Tradition does not make certain things valid...otherwise civil rights would have never passed. ~~The position that it was human created is ironically the one making the more extreme claim.~~ What is the most succinct and direct evidence that "god" wrote it? Don't forget that Arabic is still spoken, unlike the greek, Aramaic, and latin of the early bibles. But dont forget that ancient chinese works are OLDER by thousands of years far better preserved than even some arabic texts. No other religious text of comparable age is perfectly preserved. Prove otherwise. Just one?...ok... The code of Hammurabi...the Vedas? Bruh, they've been using these things for THOUSANDS of years. Anything else? ~~If it's not from God, then who wrote it ? Muhammad was illiterate, but yet the Qur'an becomes the gold standard for the Arabic language for its beauty,~~ Homer composed the Iliad and the Odyssey, is it hard to believe that its said he was BLIND?! ...maybe Zeus helped in write those...or MAYBE someone wrote them for him... But wait...didn't those texts become hallmark works in our understanding of Greco-Roman culture? Or didn't "Shakespeare" plagiarize some of his works? ...good thing he didn't become a hallmark of period English...oh wait, he DID. I wonder where concepts of hell arose before Dante...oh wait, there weren't any! Your answer is, "Well since I don't know who wrote it...then God wrote it!" Bingo! Case solved. Court adjourned. Home before five to see the wife and kids. Notice how you dodged the question. Who wrote it then ? and where is the proof ? How did he/they/them get the vast amount of knowledge needed to compose this perfect book (IE: Not a single error/contradiction) ? No alternative explanation makes any sense or has a shred of evidence to support it. "Qur'an is a religious book ? God doesn't exist. I'll just ignore all evidence. Case solved. Court adjourned. " I dodged the question? I don't know who wrote it. I don't claim to know and I don't care. I only care if the claims in it are true or not. Is that something that not important to you? But are you saying that a book that took 22 years to write *didn't* get written by a human? I might be able to get a large amount of information to fit into a book if I wasn't stealing from christianity AND taking TWO DECADES to write a book WITHOUT modern distractions. I didn't say "god doesnt exist" I said that your proof doesn't support the islamic version of "god" to exist. ~~it contains countless scientific/historical facts with not a single mistake (including corrections of the mistakes of previous religious texts).~~ No. It doesn't. I already showed you in a previous thread how the math it uses to calculate the ratio of the surface area of land to water was off by several orders of magnitude using the numbers YOU provided. Don't be so quick to forget. And thats just one example. and if you went back to the thread you would have seen how you were wrong and the numbers were correct. The water/land ratio is just one minor example. I posted countless more in this thread. Many confirmed by leading experts in their respective fields (see: Dr. Keith Moore) Post them. Try me. I already did your calculations for you. I used YOUR numbers and your math was still wrong. Let me find out that you don't know your order of operations. Please. Excuse. My. Dear. Aunt. Sally. ~~Someone claiming a book is from God is a making a very bold statement,~~ ~~and yet you believe it...~~ ~~so it would only make sense that the book in question would stand the test of time and be perfect in every form, which the Qur'an is (again, refer back to my post).~~ ~~Sans the fact it took 22 years to write and has countless revisions and updates to be incorporated through additional texts like the hadiths and other complementary texts.~~ Your ignorance is showing. I already provided you with an entire series documenting exactly how the Qur'an was sent down over the 23 (not 22) years. That actually makes your argument look weaker... God took 23 years to write a holy book. Why would it take god ANY amount of time to write a holy book? How is a book "sent down?" You mean, a guy says "god talked to him over 23 years?" or do you mean "god took 23 years to write a book?" How is this common sense evading you? God created the universe in six days...but took 22...excuse me, 23 years to "write" the Quran...Seems legit. ...because god loves the written version of *Arabic* over all other languages in the world at the time 1400 years ago and forms of communication. Why didn't he write it in the sky? or on the side of a mountain? Why not just TELL everyone? On top of that, why did god mess up in revealing the "final word" to the jews, then the christians, and FINALLY the muslims? Did god make two mistakes?...and why did he wait so long? Then immediately memorized/implemented with absolutely no changes. If it takes you 23 years to write something, you better know whats in it and have all your proofreading done. (see debate I posted above) If you are interested in how the Hadith was compiled, you can look into the research of Johnathan Brown, a Hadith scholar who became so impressed with the process/accuracy of Hadith compilation that he later became Muslim A hadith scholar that became a muslim. ...seems...legit... at the end of the day, the evidence if never addressed because no one can refute it. I'm addressing your evidence AND refuting it. What are you talking about? No alternative explanations hold water. Yeah...they actually do. The quran wasn't written by god and you can't prove it was either. Its more likely that they stole from other religions (can you explain why Jesus is in there? ...maybe to steer all the christians away by throwing him in line with the "rest" of the story...) than it is that they created something completely new. The Qur'an is undeniably divine. No. Just no. Based on your justification, if the Qu'ran is divine so is this: RKO2004 wrote: Putty, I'm not going back and forth with you. I have faith in God. I'm not going to argue and debate with you over that. You can continue to believe what you please. You won. Why do you keep doing this? You keep asking questions and when I respond to you then you just clam up. Like...jeez dude at least TRY to be consistent. I take the time to reply to EACH and EVERY thing you ever say... You're free to espouse YOUR views but when I challenge what you say, then you have nothing to say. At all. You know what god thinks, but when I respond to that, god apparently has *nothing* else to say. Where is the reciprocity and general respect for the rules of the debate? Sidenote: I'm not even legitimately upset with anyone or slamming my keyboard , despite the size of my font. I'm just trying to get a point across. I enjoy these debates. Its good fun...just don't say something, then REFUSE to reply. Its not upsetting, just more annoying than anything. "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY." --Herman Goering at the Nuremberg Trials Last Edited By: sillyputty 01/29/12 3:54 PM. Edited 4 times.
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ATGD7154xBBxMZ		#675	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 6711 01/29/12 3:45 PM	tkthafm wrote: Hopefully some will actually look at the evidence posted. at the end of the day, the evidence if never addressed because no one can refute it. No alternative explanations hold water. The Qur'an is undeniably divine.
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tkthafm		#676	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 705 01/29/12 4:00 PM	The Hammurabi code is missing sections, and does not even establish the framework for a complete religion. Various Hindu texts have had countless changes made to them (and contain many contradictions/scientific/historical errors) and ironically, some texts even talk of the Prophet Muhammad himself (just as the Bible/Old Testament) - one of the vids I posted previously discusses this in much further detail. As for the rest, at least you admitted you cannot explain/have no evidence to show who else could have possibly written the Qur'an. The problem is you don't bother to look at the things I posted and continue to claim "there is no evidence to support an Islamic God" ... Of course there is no evidence if YOU don't want there to be any. How ridiculous of a discussion is this ? There's at least a few days worth of material that I posted; the material is completely ignored as if it's not there, no alternative explanations are given, and the claim of "no evidence" continues to get thrown out. Amazing. Civilize the mind but make savage the body
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RKO2004		#677	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 14290 01/29/12 4:01 PM	ATGD7154xBBxMZ wrote: RKO2004 wrote: Putty, I'm not going back and forth with you. I have faith in God. I'm not going to argue and debate with you over that. You can continue to believe what you please. You won. What's the difference between faith and gullibility? I don't know if this will answer your question. But I'm far from gullible in my opinion. I choose to have faith. For the me, belief in God does wonders in day to day living. It puts me at piece with a lot of things. Also this world can be very evil and defeating at times. I can only hope and pray that someone has our backs at the end of everything. With so much evil there has to be a polar opposite that represents good. That's just me though. ONLY IN CINCINNATI DOES 14 + 18 = 6
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AntonLaVey		#678	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 19346 01/29/12 4:07 PM	um yea im working on creating a new religion thats a spin off of islam, if you kill 20 christians and burn churches in nigeria u get a mansion, a yacht and 2 white women TEAM METALHEADS TEAM NIGERIA "This God that I worship, this demon I blame. Conspiring as one, it's exactly the same, it's exactly the same."
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ATGD7154xBBxMZ		#679	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 6714 01/29/12 4:19 PM	RKO2004 wrote: ATGD7154xBBxMZ wrote: RKO2004 wrote: Putty, I'm not going back and forth with you. I have faith in God. I'm not going to argue and debate with you over that. You can continue to believe what you please. You won. What's the difference between faith and gullibility? I don't know if this will answer your question. But I'm far from gullible in my opinion. I choose to have faith. For the me, belief in God does wonders in day to day living. It puts me at piece with a lot of things. Also this world can be very evil and defeating at times. I can only hope and pray that someone has our backs at the end of everything. With so much evil there has to be a polar opposite that represents good. That's just me though. Yeah you were right, you didn't answer my question. What's the difference between the two? You just stated why you chose faith and other reasons for liking it. With this response it seems like there isn't a difference, just after being gullible you just have to be convicted, stick to w/e your gullible about and then call it faith. I'm sure a person can be gullible about something and being gullible can then do wonders for their day to day living, puts them at peace with a lot of things, gives them reassurance in w/e they're gullible about has their backs in this world that can be defeating and very evil, etc.
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sillyputty		#680	[url]	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 3041 01/29/12 4:22 PM	RKO2004 wrote: ATGD7154xBBxMZ wrote: RKO2004 wrote: Putty, I'm not going back and forth with you. I have faith in God. I'm not going to argue and debate with you over that. You can continue to believe what you please. You won. What's the difference between faith and gullibility? I don't know if this will answer your question. But I'm far from gullible in my opinion. You ignored every question I asked you. Literally. Thats just not fair man. Lets make a deal. You dont ask me anything or address me unless you respond to what I ask you. Cause its just getting ridiculous... I could understand you responding and me still not being satisfied, but just ignoring everything? Thats foul. I choose to have faith. As in ignoring the contradictions? For the me, belief in God does wonders in day to day living. Tebow's touchdowns or feeding starving christian kids? It puts me at piece with a lot of things. Peace =/= Piece But that aside, how can you be at peace knowing that there are those who are possible MORE pious than you that live in far worse conditions? Does god not hear their cries? This reeks of selfishness and narcissism. God is great to "ME, MYSELF, and I" Also this world can be very evil and defeating at times. Evil is subjective, at best. But the universe does not owe anyone, anything. Its a harsh reality, but the most we can do is to improve the lives of others that are less fortunate. Prayer alone won't solve that, and you know it. I can only hope and pray that someone has our backs at the end of everything. Lets do an experiment. Pray for a million dollars instead of working for it. With so much evil there has to be a polar opposite that represents good. That's just me though. But god, is not the opposite of evil. The god of the bible has done some really nasty things. You can't ignore that, no matter how much you try. tkthafm wrote: The Hammurabi code is missing sections, and does not even establish the framework for a complete religion. What qualifies as a "complete religion," to you? Let me guess, anything thats NOT Islam? ...how predictable. Various Hindu texts have had countless changes made to them (and contain many contradictions/scientific/historical errors) The Quran doesn't have contradictions? http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ http://www.islamic.org.uk/internalc.html http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions_in_the_Qur'an http://carm.org/contradictions-quran http://www.answering-isla...Quran/Contra/ashraf.html Get to work on resolving those. Don't blame it on a "translation error," either. Those are DIRECT contradictions within your "perfect" text. and ironically, some texts even talk of the Prophet Muhammad himself (just as the Bible/Old Testament) - one of the vids I posted previously discusses this in much further detail. Foretelling a messiah is hardly a new concept at all. Claiming that prophet or messiah was Muhammad, a name thats not explicitly listed, is dishonest of you. Thats my mom saying, "one day you will have a daughter" and me magically thinking that my mom has magical powers when the statistics show its a 51% probability that this will occur. As for the rest, at least you admitted you cannot explain/have no evidence to show who else could have possibly written the Qur'an. What do you mean "who else could have possibly written the quran" ??? The answer to "I don't know" is not "god" Get that through your head already. The problem is you don't bother to look at the things I posted and continue to claim "there is no evidence to support an Islamic God" You haven't posted anything new. I have looked through everything you've ever posted for months now and nothing stands on its own. All of your math is wrong. All of your premises are flawed. All of your "facts" are skewed... Nothing you say is objective. Thats like me asking a priest if he believes the bible is true or not...well duh, hes a priest! At least a scientist will show me the holes in his theory and the work of his critics and work towards making a more cogent argument in the future. . Of course there is no evidence if YOU don't want there to be any. Simple. Prove the Quran was written by god. Prove it. One thing. Prove it. How ridiculous of a discussion is this ? You tell me. Your answer to everything is "god" There's at least a few days worth of material that I posted; the material is completely ignored as if it's not there, Your material doesn't prove anything. Its made by muslims with a severe case of confirmation bias no alternative explanations are given, Everything I say is an alternative explanation and its far more plausible because it applies to every other religion beyond islam. and the claim of "no evidence" continues to get thrown out. Amazing. Providing "evidence" for the sake of saying things DOESNT PROVE ANYTHING. I can go to court and say "judge I wasn't there, I was at my GF's house" and that isn't enough to PROVE I wasn't elsewhere committing a crime. Evidence must support the claims being asserted. Being evidence in and of itself is not enough. Saying this "came from the quran"...does NOT prove the quran. TKTHAFM, address this PLEASE: God took 23 years to write a holy book. Why would it take god ANY amount of time to write a holy book? How is a book "sent down?" You mean, a guy says "god talked to him over 23 years?" or do you mean "god took 23 years to write a book?" How is this common sense evading you? God created the universe in six days...but took 22...excuse me, 23years to "write" the Quran...Seems legit. ...because god loves the written version ofArabic over all other languages in the world at the time 1400 years ago and forms of communication. Why didn't he write it in the sky? or on the side of a mountain? Why not just TELL everyone? On top of that, why did god mess up in revealing the "final word" to the jews, then the christians, and FINALLY the muslims? Did god make two mistakes?...and why did he wait so long? "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY." --Herman Goering at the Nuremberg Trials Last Edited By: sillyputty 01/29/12 4:39 PM. Edited 2 times.
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