Keeping Witnesses Off Stand to Keep Them Safe (Scared Silent)

834
10
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
witnessless600.jpg


The strategy sounds almost illogical: Detectives in New Jersey are being urged to build criminal cases with as few witnesses as possible. Or with none at all.

In cities struggling with gang-related crimes, like Trenton and Newark, detectives said that even on the infrequent occasions when they find civilian witnesses who might be willing to testify, investigators are wary about pressuring them to appear in court. That reluctance is based on a fear that the authorities might not be able to protect witnesses from retaliation.

In the New Jersey State Police gang unit, the approach is so common that detectives have made hundreds of cases during the past five years, but used civilian testimony fewer than a dozen times, investigators said.

Even Gov. Jon S. Corzine has directed police agencies in the state to use witnesses more sparingly in cases involving street gangs.

Detective Sgt. Ronald Hampton of the State Police, who has worked in the gang unit since 2002, said the testimony of civilian witnesses was considered evidence of last resort.

"It used to be that when someone gave information, the first words out of a detective's mouth were, 'Are you willing to testify to that?'" Detective Hampton said.

But no more.

"If you push someone and they agree to testify, now they're your responsibility," he said. "You've got to keep them from disappearing or getting hurt. Can we protect them? Maybe. But God forbid that two years later you have to tell someone their husband or father got killed. I don't want to have to live with that."

No one much disputes that the strategy amounts to something of a retreat for law enforcement in New Jersey.

Deciding whether to pressure a witness to testify has always been one of the most precarious parts of detective work, and investigators still make cases by turning one gang member against another. But as murders have climbed across the state - and with more than a dozen witnesses having been killed in the last five years - building witnessless cases is seen as necessary.

"People in law enforcement have to make ugly, practical decisions every day," said the Camden County prosecutor, Joshua M. Ottenberg, who added that he urged his investigators to find and use as many witnesses as they can. "It may not be pretty."

Instead, cases are made using video surveillance or sting operations or police testimony. But the cases that can be made without witnesses - often drug sales or gun possession cases - tend to carry shorter sentences than the more serious crimes, those that the authorities would most like to prosecute: murder, kidnapping and assault.

Critics said that by resorting to methods that allow gang members to reduce, or avoid, punishment for their crimes, the police are essentially rewarding them.

Vincent C. Scocca, a defense lawyer in Essex County who has defended gang members, said the approach sent a "scary message."

One example came in 2006, when the Newark police investigated a murder outside of Toby's Lounge. They found a man who had told friends that he had seen everything and could identify the killer, but detectives did not try to strong-arm the reluctant and frightened witness into testifying. The case remains unsolved, but the suspect was later arrested on a weapons charge by federal investigators.

And in August 2006, when Trenton detectives found a minor drug dealer who was willing to help them secretly record conversations with a gang leader suspected of running a major heroin ring and ordering the murder or a rival, they turned down the offer.

Detective Daniel Pagnotta, the lead investigator in that case, said the gang leader had such a reputation for violence, and the options available to relocate the witness were so limited, that it was simply too risky. The police instead set up a sting operation that led to the arrest of the gang leader on narcotics charges.

They have not charged him in connection with the killing.

"We knew we could have gotten evidence to link him to the murder," said Detective Pagnotta, who retired in June. "But it was pretty obvious that if we did, our witness would end up dead. So we took what we could get."

Under the best of circumstances, the effort to spare civilians the ordeal of appearing in court can push the authorities to strengthen their cases by finding sturdier evidence.

When the Trenton police investigated a gang shooting outside the Jet Wine and Liquor Store in May 2005, detectives found a witness who was willing to help them, but he was extremely uneasy. Rather than put his name on a report that could be turned over to the suspect's lawyers, or pushing him to testify before a grand jury, detectives looked for other options and struck gold: a videotape that showed the suspect with a gun. It led to an indictment for murder without the need for the witness to testify.

"They can't intimidate a videotape," Detective Pagnotta said.

Vernon J. Geberth, whose textbook "Practical Homicide Investigation" is used to train detectives in hundreds of police departments, cautioned that whatever forensic evidence or police testimony prosecutors may present at trial, there is no substitute for the power of a credible civilian witness.

"With witnesses, I always say the more the merrier," said Mr. Geberth, who retired from the New York Police Department after serving as commander of the Bronx Homicide Task Force.

In Camden, attempts to build trust with residents has had mixed results. In 2004, when the police were making arrests in just 14 percent of all shootings, they formed a special response team to flood crime scenes with investigators and to canvass for witnesses. Today, the police solve more than 40 percent of all shootings, according to city statistics.

Last November, however, a 19-year-old gang member named Fred Morton was questioned by the response team's detectives about a murder he had witnessed. Twelve days later, he was found dead in a city park. He had been strangled, and his throat was slit.

Prosecutors said there was no evidence that his murder was related to his discussions with the police, and they pointed out that Mr. Morton had many potential enemies because he had carried out several robberies and at least one fatal shooting in the week before his death. But Mr. Morton's relatives and many of his neighbors are convinced that he was killed because word had spread on the street that he had been talking to the detectives.

Mr. Ottenberg acknowledged that while the effort had helped solve more cases, it had not eased the sense among city residents that the police view witnesses as "little more than cannon fodder."

State officials are now considering measures to deter gang members and to convince members of the public that witnesses will be protected. Attorney General Anne Milgram said Mr. Corzine's administration was pushing for stricter sentences for intimidation and for more money to relocate those whose testimony puts them in danger.

In the interim, though, the governor has called for the police to use civilian witnesses sparingly, especially in gun possession cases in which surveillance, search warrants and police testimony can help them win convictions.

Some state officials who support Mr. Corzine's proposals said that New Jersey's witness intimidation problem had grown so complex and severe that it would take a broader effort, from both government and community leaders, to combat it.

"The bad guys are willing to use tactics that the good guys haven't yet figured out how to deal with," said State Senator John H. Adler, chairman of the Judiciary Committee.
 
word...I've been up all night. But this is nothing knew. I've seen more "witnesses" at raids in ski mask, than in court. Ofcourse I don'tgoto alot of big drug charge cases, but they usually get a "snitch" to testify behind closed doors so they can get a warrant issued, and then useevidence from a raid to nail somebody.
 
i dont get it. if your willing to testify against a gang member or violent person they should know that they might be in danger of retaliation
 
Can we protect them? Maybe
Maybe?Thats not a good enough answer,Im not saying have secret service type of protection but if I put my life on the line "Maybe"isn't good enough.People are scared,they have every right to be and if they dont testify I wont hold that against them anyways with how things are going inthis day and age.
 
Bottom line....criminals are out there b/c the stop snitching motto creates a hostile environment for anyone who cooperates with the police...and could lead todire consequences
 
Originally Posted by Thecoldest343

Can we protect them? Maybe
Maybe?Thats not a good enough answer,Im not saying have secret service type of protection but if I put my life on the line "Maybe" isn't good enough.People are scared,they have every right to be and if they dont testify I wont hold that against them anyways with how things are going in this day and age.


Did you read the article? They said that because of this they are not asking people to testify unless they have no other options,
 
Did you read the article? They said that because of this they are not asking people to testify unless they have no other options,
Yes 25% of it I didn't need to read the rest to see where this is headed,every other week theres a writeup about "Stop snitching".

tired.gif
"Stop snitching" has spread like a virus and you have alot ofpeople who aren't or probably will never be in that type of situation voicing their opinions on "stop snitching"and I think thatss part of theproblem.Adding to the hype of it all,using it out of context,giving it a whole new meaning...ect,playing into it(criminals & everyday folks,both).

If you live around it,some will say other wise,people are telling,no doubt about it and maybe not for every single thing that happens but more so,so that theycan save their own@#@!.
 
Dont %*@%$@@ snitch. Thats the way @@%$ works. I seen ppl get robbed n @+*%@% up all the time, u just keep it moving.
 
How about we just shoot convicted gang members. Simple solution, then we charge their family for the price of the bullet.
 
Originally Posted by ThrowedInDaGame

Dont %*@%$@@ snitch. Thats the way @@%$ works. I seen ppl get robbed n @+*%@% up all the time, u just keep it moving.

Hey, check out the tough guy.
 
Word. My girlfriends Mom witnessed a near death beating on a bum. She was one of the witnesses that went on the stand. Guy memorized her name, and 15 yearlaters comes hunting for her and my g/f family. Guy even went to my girls middle school, to try and pick up my girlfriend and her younger sister.
 
Sometimes it's just safer to keep quiet

this guy got killed at a grocery store by my house. A lady living in the apartments saw it and talked to the police.
A few days later she and her daughters are loading their car to move because they already knew it wasn't safe to stay, while they were packing the mothergets shot in the head and killed
 
Bottom line....criminals are out there b/c the stop snitching motto creates a hostile environment for anyone who cooperates with the police...and could lead to dire consequences
Bottom line thats incorrect criminals are out cause like the cops said "maybe" we can protect you. Who is going to risk their life for"maybe" just so some stupid criminal can get right out to do them are their family harm? Stop snitching please this stuff has been going onlooooooooonnnnnnnnggggggggg before the rappers, media, etc wanna make this the scapegoat phrase it is now.
 
Its sad that you can't even talk to authorities anymore based on fear of retaliation..a man I used to know ended up doing some dumb stuff and gettingkilled. Witness across the street told the family what happened, but wouldn't go to the cops/testify. This is in RI...I can only imagine the fear thatbigger states come with..
 
Originally Posted by Peteweezy

Bottom line....criminals are out there b/c the stop snitching motto creates a hostile environment for anyone who cooperates with the police...and could lead to dire consequences
Bottom line thats incorrect criminals are out cause like the cops said "maybe" we can protect you. Who is going to risk their life for "maybe" just so some stupid criminal can get right out to do them are their family harm? Stop snitching please this stuff has been going on looooooooonnnnnnnnggggggggg before the rappers, media, etc wanna make this the scapegoat phrase it is now.

EXACTLY


And im a pretty friendly person...but if i commited a crime and someone "snitched" on me...

OF COURSE IMA GO RETALIATE ON EM
laugh.gif


OR ID HAVE ONE OF MY BOYS ICE THEM B4 TRIAL
pimp.gif
 
Originally Posted by vdubsta

Word. My girlfriends Mom witnessed a near death beating on a bum. She was one of the witnesses that went on the stand. Guy memorized her name, and 15 year laters comes hunting for her and my g/f family. Guy even went to my girls middle school, to try and pick up my girlfriend and her younger sister.

and what happened?
 
Stop snitching please this stuff has been going on looooooooonnnnnnnnggggggggg before the rappers, media, etc wanna make this the scapegoat phrase it is now.
True...Since like the Prohibition Era. Anyways, theres a difference between a snitch and someone who isdoing the "right" thing. I have way more respect for a person who witnesses a crime and feels it's the right thing to do to go tell, than aperson who commits crimes and then cooperates with police, but most people believe snitching is snitching, so if you snitch you finna get banged either way itgoes.
 
Dont %*@%$@@ snitch. Thats the way @@%$ works. I seen ppl get robbed n @+*%@% up all the time, u just keep it moving.
Is it that your scared? So if god forbid something happend to your family and you knew someone had info. would you want them to snitch or justhide in fear? I personally dont give a F__ cuz if someone does something to harm someone who is defenseless then they are the B__ and they deserve to bepunished. Other crimes that don't involve people getting hurt are an exception and then you shouldn't tell.
 
Originally Posted by bbanks707

How about we just shoot convicted gang members. Simple solution, then we charge their family for the price of the bullet.

Didn't you say you wanted to become a cop in another thread?
smh.gif


?
 
Back
Top Bottom