2nd best Designer behind Tinker Hatfield? Opinions?

RockDeep wrote:
Yeah.. Im glad to see there are real Sneaker Enthusiasts here and not just Sneaker Heads.

Tinker has Jordan as his backdrop. I am not a fan of many Jordans.... but Tinker is cool.. but as mentioned his kicks arent that functional.

Eric Avar is FAR better than Tinker in my opinion. Dont let the Hype of Jordan and Tinker together cloud that Eric brings not only Form but function.


I think along the lines of the better up and comings who's work some will never see due to the shoes never being released.

Tate Kuerbis - This dude does things with kicks. Your new to kicks if you dont know his name
Micheal DiTullo - Formerly with Jordan Brand now with Converse
Jason Petrie - All I can say is the VII is the tip of the Ice Berg from this dude
Tony Hardman - I know he just got there, but you have seen his work here on NT and I wish he were in the Kitchen where his skills would be unleased..

Guys you just dont know who do some major work other than Kenzo.

Jonathan Griffin - Designer of the Super Bad II
Marc Dolce - Designer of the Penny Half Cent
E Scott Morris- Use to be the Design Director for Nike Football before Kenzo took over. Worked in Nike Basketball back in the hey day of CB34 et al
Jason Mayden - Say what you will about some things from Jordan Brand... this guys stuff is functional and performs like a beast on the court.

Google these names and check their patents out. I agree if people knew the Designer behind the Shoe.. you would be much more well informed. Thats why its hard for me to really critique a shoe without saying why. I can't do what they do, and yet I understand what most of you all see is NOT the concept they first started with.

They are hired off of the talent but when that talent is unleashed it's reeled back in due to constraints and costs of making a shoe. If each of the above designers were told. Design what you want and it will not be changed thru out the entire design process that would be some of the greatest stuff you have ever seen. I think only the Kitchen gets that REAL leeway. I wish I could be a PLM for the Kitchen designers.

As a matter of fact if the all the above dudes were in the kitchen Nike would be on some BRAND new #%@ working under Eric Avar...

For real.

I must say, I'm still relatively new to going further and deeper than the finished product (as it was always about whats on the shelf and its price ratherthan all the minute intricacies involved) and knowing about the designers and their processes etc...but to answer the OP's question, I'll be inclinedto say Eric Avar is 2nd best as well....but to echo what some have said and Rock here, forgetting about the Jordan reference/link (also with the defense ofless technically enhanced kicks back in the day), Tinker is a boss...but from a functionality and performace standpoint Avar is definitely a beast and couldpush that argument further that maybe he is the best.

Nice to get some enlightenment again from you Rock, much info and insight there. I'm sure with budgets and all, a lot of the original concepts put down onpaper, there would've been loads of booms and possible busts for sure...but you just have to imagine huh...

Nice topic OP
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Originally Posted by swingshot




I've long since thought that NT needs some sort of record of who designed what shoes.

Yes, we all know what Tinker designed, who designed the rest of the Jordans, but there are a bunch of others
where the designers aren't so well known.

I've always wondered for instance who designed Barkley's shoes... Esp the Air Max2 CB.
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That.

I need this. I'm so interested in the process behind the sneakers.

I hope this thread will go further, i'd love to learn more.
 
Has anyone ever looked at the XI? Its an evolution of the X which wasnt MJs favorite at all.... but hold them up to each other and see the simularites. I dogive him credit for making one hated shoe a most loved one. Other than the Gimmicks.... altho beauty of the Cement/Elephant is nice...The Straps of the VIII.....The VI and the VII resemble each other What is there?

The XII is very simplistic yet Classic.. but was the XIV and XVI even designed by Tinker? IPS was a sham and Air is outdated. What do you have after all thatother than Classics made so by the man who wore them? Look at What Eric Avar has done without Signature Athletes...and have stood timeless as well. With MUCHmore function added with the Style.

Again..just my thoughts...

I will say when many of the Designers have a huge project.. they get Eric Avar's advice on it...

When he takes a look you see that Outrigger he created which I love.
 
Originally Posted by never wear them

take away the III, IV, V, the XI,.... what can Tinker look back at?.... excluding trainers..... I admire Tinker for what he has created but eric is impressive...
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The classic Nike Air Flight Huaraches! These shoes seem to always fly under the radar.
 
Originally Posted by ElijahDukes

take away the III, IV, V, the XI,.... what can Tinker look back at?.... excluding trainers..... I admire Tinker for what he has created but eric is impressive...
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VI, XII, XIII
lol %%@ typa logic? take away Michael Jordan's rings and what do you have?! lol be real fam, Tinker is a beast, Avar is too, just a matter ofpreference imo.
 
Originally Posted by Ruxxx

^^^^^^^^^Swing,where can I find the concept art for the Penny 4?
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reviewavarsketchpenny9gd.jpg



Since there's a few designer enthusiasts here, and one or two people who may have insider knowledge, i'm throwing this theory out.

I've often wondered if the Garnett 3 was a reworked Penny V.

Sounds farfetched? Maybe, but hear me out.

Reportedly, Garnett rejected the original Garnett 3, saying he wanted Tuned Air.

The shoes already made as the Garnett 3 were apparently then shuffled off to the Outlets, and they started making him a new shoe.

Nike designers tend to work far ahead enough such that when a sig shoe drops, it's successor, if there is one, is usually already well in progress.

So when the Penny Line was scrubbed, Avar probably already had some fairly well developed ideas for the Penny V.

Also bear in mind that Nike *may* have been a little short on time, so it's possible they went to an unused design.

I think there are some elements in the Garnett 3 which are reminiscent of Pennys, the way the midsole seems to wrap up into the forefoot,
the stitching pattern, The Garnett 3 also has excellent lockdown, which is something the Penny IV was also about.

Oh, and a pokey toebox like the Pennys 2 through 4.

(The Retro Penny IV fits true to big in the toe area, but the OGs dont)

Perhaps i'm reaching though.
 
Originally Posted by misterHalfCabs

Originally Posted by ElijahDukes

take away the III, IV, V, the XI,.... what can Tinker look back at?.... excluding trainers..... I admire Tinker for what he has created but eric is impressive...
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VI, XII, XIII
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lol %%@ typa logic? take away Michael Jordan's rings and what do you have?! lol be real fam, Tinker is a beast, Avar is too, just a matter of preference imo.




your sense of thought is sooooo limited..... Smh.... So those 3 shoes you mentioned, would make Tinker the goat designers? W/o the exclusions that Imentioned... Tinker would be like Robert horry for the lakers.... Some memorable moments, and that's bout it... Some of the designers that Rock mentioned,very interesting.
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Originally Posted by HK Feet 27

Originally Posted by never wear them

take away the III, IV, V, the XI,.... what can Tinker look back at?.... excluding trainers..... I admire Tinker for what he has created but eric is impressive...
Click to expand...

The classic Nike Air Flight Huaraches! These shoes seem to always fly under the radar.
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awww Ricky Ricky Ricky...... Heading to eBay for another pair.....
 
^^^Thanks Swing.
I actually have seen that before,but I don't think I paid attention to the fact that the drawing didn't have Air Max cushioning.I honestly like thatone a little better!
 
Originally Posted by Ruxxx

......but I don't think I paid attention to the fact that the drawing didn't have Air Max cushioning.....!
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My *guess* is that the concept was shot down because Nike wanted to play it safe with the IV after Penny's injuries.

Less radical design, cheaper tooling costs, and a visible air max unit, so they can keep the suggested retail price up there, even though the Air Max2 unit in
the shoe wasn't exactly big, and the technology behind it was well well established by then. (ie relatively cheap to make)



Remember how the Pippen 1 was an Air Max shoe, but Pippen was reportedly 'too busy' to sit in on the whole development process, and later opted
for a Zoom version. Funny thing is, his PE Pippen IV had a zoom heel, and the retail version.. Air Max unit. Was he too busy then to take part in thedevelopment process?

Doubt it. More likely Marketing decided an Air Max unit would be more profitable and switched things around.... I'm guessing that's what happened withthe Penny IV.
In fact, the heel in the Penny IV is VERY low to the ground, like they originally intended to put a more responsive cushioning system in the heel than an AirMax2 unit, but changed their mind relatively late in the day.

For a more recent example, see the Windmill Flights. The retail version and the concept, very different shoes reportedly.... bean counters/marketing struck andthe shoe got cut down.
 
For those that dont think TInker is the best due to his "lack of functionality", isn't there more to it than that? He put the elephant print onthe 3, patent leather on the 11, and the 23 is such a beautiful shoe. He sees things a little different. Lets not forget he created a whole category (crosstraining), it didn't even exist until he created it. Thats got to account for something. Eric Avar is the best right now but overall I gotta go withTinker.

As time goes on we will look at Tinkers shoes and think wow whats the big deal? No flywire, no foam, no cushlon, whats the big deal? But for the most part hecouldn't work with those things because they didn't exist. Its like the Legend of Zelda for the Nintendo, today its a piece of junk but it is widelyconsidered the best video game of all time, for what it was when it was released.

I guess this is why its so hard to compare things/people from different eras. Who is better Tiger or Jack, Michael or Kobe, Federer or Sampras. Hard to proveyet fun to discuss.
 
Ken Link simply for getting me excited about shoes again.

Also, I like Leo Chang's performance shoes... f.e. Zoom BB line (let's forget about the Hyperize mishap
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).

I've always enjoyed Alpha's shoes. Apart from the old stuff... I like the new LeBrons (of course), but I alsoenjoy the Zoom Flight Club.... very much.

As for Avar.. everything has been said already.

btw... Tinker has legacy but he's no longer no.1.
 
I don't know if there would be one without the other but in this day and age I'd give it up to Avar.
 
Man, we need more threads like this on NT. I love coming on here and learning a thing or two about sneaker tech or history or whatever. Thanks for droppingsome real knowledge Rock, Swingshot, etc.

I think it's true what has been said about comparing people from different generations. Tinker made some unbelievable stuff for that day and age, and Avardoes some ridiculous stuff now. Imo it's difficult to compare them when considering what they have to work with.
 
Originally Posted by 3onPar5

......But for the most part he couldn't work with those things because they didn't exist. ......
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Indeed. It's a cumulative process... Tinker was a big part of Nike's success, which in turn gave them the resources to push ideas by other designers.

Although i know very little about the technologies involved in designing and testing athletic footwear, i'd be inclined to think there have been massivedevelopments
in those technologies over the years, which means (in theory at least) they can do things that probably weren't possible when the Jordan 3 was on thesketchboard.

We all know the manufacturing technologies have progressed a lot too.

More recently... i'd agree that some 'innovations' aren't nearly as innovative as Nike want us to think they are. In that respect, we'repaying the price of their
aggressive marketing and innovation in the 90s, they really don't have any competition any more, and i can't help but think the market has suffered forit.
 
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