The Thing was originally not that tall 6'0 range.
I think we're talking about at different parts of the movie. Cuz Superman flying Zod to the moon or Titan is enough of a prison itself before we even get in to having enough time to build a prison or going to his ship (before it's gone and getting a solution on how to stop Zod and contain him).
Like I said there's still deep space. There are black holes in the solar system, in the galaxy that Supes can throw Zod in to. Plus he could've just strand him on Pluto.
No it's not all new to him. Clark spent over 2 decades with his powers. He wasn't testing his limits but he sure as hell knew how to look at somebody without looking through their clothes or setting them on fire.
When did Zod show the ability to fly? He was leaping around like the Hulk when he got the hang of his super strength, speed and heat vision. Maybe I missed the part where he was just straight zooming around in the sky wasting Superman. Last I recall in the end, Supes flight was one of the last advantages he had in the fight.
No. The movie doesn't last forever if you write it so that it ends with Superman not killing Zod but paralyzing him or stranding him off in space. Stop pretending it couldn't.
That's cuz in the comics they reboot every decade. How many times has Supes killed on a public stage in the comics and not been viewed as murder? I hope you aint gonna cite the times he kills monster looking dudes like Darkseid, Doomsday and whats his name with the huge spaceship and yellow skin. When they're not rebooting, they're lessening the murder. They're never justifying it by saying Superman couldn't do anything else. They always have an escape to excuse his actions if need be and most of the time that's a Superman that isn't a noob and may have actually exhausted the laundry list of ways to stop an opponent before giving up and killing.
But is there a precedence of Superman willing to and in fact, taking a life in certain situations. You might be surprised to learn that there are more than a few irrefutable examples of Superman taking a life. Superman has actually shown a decidedly fickle approach to the sanctity of life on more than a few separate examples taken from his long history.
Let's start at the very beginning, the golden age. Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster were the masterminds behind Superman so if anyone has any veracity on what comprises the 'essence' of Superman, it's undoubtedly these two guys. They wrote Superman's original adventures and they defined his characteristics. In Superman #1 we see Superman throw a man who was questioning some soldiers off a cliff and destroy an enemy plane. They were enemy combatants but Superman was still a far cry from the 'every life is sacred' attitude he would later develop.
Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster would continue to highlight Superman's willingness to take emphatic and life ending action in Superman #2. Here Superman blows up a munitions factory in broad daylight, there had to be dozens of workers in there if not more. Next we see Clark Kent put three criminals on trial and he even takes the stand against them in Court to secure the death sentence for all three of them. Superman is apparently pro death penalty and he does it all to impress Lois Lane, not from any burning desire to see justice done.
Next we see Superman allowing a domestic terrorist to die by his own toxic creation while he begs for help and Superman stands by and actually torments the would be terrorist as he is choking to death. Now I don't care who you are, that's cold, even for someone like The Punisher or Rorschach.
Let's fast forward to Superman #4, here we see Superman catching a bomb dropped by an aircraft, that's certainly heroic enough. Until he throws the bomb back at the aircraft, destroying it. And in the next panel we see Superman sabotage a criminals brake system while they're driving down a mountain. Superman then escapes with Lois while the two occupants plummet to their deaths.
Superman's vehicular heroics continue in Superman #6 when two cars fall off a mountain, one works for The Daily Planet and the other is a car full of criminals. It's an easy guess who Superman saves but he is not the least bit conflicted by the criminals deaths, Superman even says "A well deserved fate!" while scanning the fiery wreckage. The next panel is an especially interesting one.
A cunning citizen discovers Superman's identity and tries to blackmail Superman. What was Superman's response you might be wondering, "Hasn't it occurred to you that I could snap your neck with these fingers and I'd never have to worry about being exposed!". Needless to say, the citizen is terrified and he runs for his life with Clark Kent in pursuit. The citizen gets to a flight of stairs and declares that he knows Superman's identity but Clark Kent manages to get in front of the man and then the man mysteriously tumbles down the stairs and dies before he can spill Clark Kent's secret. Whether Clark Kent pushed him down the stairs or not is not clear so it's up to you to decide but it is an extremely convenient accident.
Here, a would be assassins bullet ricochets off a wall and kills himself and the ever altruistic Superman quips "A murderer's fate!". When Superman rushes to a building it is blown up by a demolition crew yet for some inexplicable reason, Superman catches some falling steel and throws it directly on top of some innocent bystanders. The caption says that Superman threw the debris in an empty lot but you can clearly see it squashes two civilians. The civilians are even screaming "NO, NO!".
Moving on to Superman #8. We see Superman scout out a hidden army consisting of at least two platoons, so Superman takes it upon himself to kill every living person he found there. Superman even says that there's "Not a soul left alive - except for myself!".
Now this is probably the most famous example of Superman murdering some one or some three to be more precise. Superman took it upon himself to execute General Zod, Quex-Ul and Faora, who were completely powerless at the time. This unfolded in Superman #22.
General Zod and Superman are once again at the forefront of Superman's life ending proclivities, this time in Action Comics #805. Superman breaks Zod's neck again although apparently not quite enough to kill him but Zod charges straight back into battle and Superman viciously elbows Zod in his stomach and Zod literally drops dead.
In Superman #03, In an attempt to free a hostage from an alien sentience, Superman unleashes the full power of his heat vision upon her alien form expecting to kill her, Superman even begs for forgiveness as he does it and while he ultimately doesn't kill her, Superman did fully intend to end her life for the greater good.
Wait what? I'm not talking about being an expert on kryptonian weaknesses. I didn't say anything about kryptonite or the rays of the red sun or magic. I'm still simply talking about damaging his spine. I'm talking about all the years of Clark knowing what he's capable of and what Zod would be capable of, seeing him get the hang of it the more they fought and at that moment of despair when he know he's about to kill more ppl, simply heat vision his frontal lobe or vertebrae. You don't need to read a book to have it in mind to want to cripple someone. Has Clark never watched tv or a movie? C'mon, at least read the paper. If so this even poorer Pa Kent parenting.
What do you mean not within his knowledge? Does he not know of Earth's solar system? Are you trying to suggest he was super dumb in school and doesn't know about the other planets? He knows he's an alien but he's not aware of Mars? Uranus? Maybe not knowing Pluto is a moon now is one thing but c'mon. I'm not at all sure what you're saying he doesn't know or can't know. You don't need to be super smart to know this stuff. 8 yr olds know these things.
He could fly near the end of the fight. He wasn't flying during the entirety of the fight. Every moment before then he could've done what I've said. Stop pretending he was flying the whole time or that you don't know I'm talking about before he learned how to fly.
This is false. Superman isn't some infant. You're just assuming this. Paralyzing Zod would be the same as a regular human paralyzing another human. Now for Supes when you add in the super powers I'm not sure why you're saying he wouldn't know other than assuming it's not an option to support the idea he had no other choice but to kill him.
It wasn't to no avail. He simply stopped and gave up when they got back down to Earth. He could've easily slammed in to him once more back out in to space for another go around. It would've at the very least lessened the human death toll. I mean really, he killed him cuz they wanted it to happen not cuz there weren't any other options. I mean how silly it is alone that they fly all the way in to space and then land back in Metropolis for the end?
Again Supes could've done everything I said before Zod learned how to fly. He wasn't flying from the beginning of the fight but instead he wasted time to destroying the city.
I'm saying the scene was not written so that there were no options. Just portrayed in that way so that he did kill him. You saying the movie would go on forever if he didn't want to kill him is just baseless.
It's not about forgiveness. At this point Superman can be viewed as a monster since he's the same damn race as Zod. All it'd take is one bad day for things to change. That's besides the other point that I'm not talking about in movie ramifications. I'm talking about Superman the ideal and the essence of the hero in the media. He isn't a murderer. That the huge movie debut depicts this perverted version of Superman completely misses the mark.
The golden age doesn't count because as far as continuity goes none of that happened in realityOk well I am guessing the Golden Age should count being written and created by Siegel and Schuster and if anyone is going to know how Superman is suppose to be and what is "essence" is as it stated, it's got to be original creators, right?
But is there a precedence of Superman willing to and in fact, taking a life in certain situations. You might be surprised to learn that there are more than a few irrefutable examples of Superman taking a life. Superman has actually shown a decidedly fickle approach to the sanctity of life on more than a few separate examples taken from his long history.
Let's start at the very beginning, the golden age. Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster were the masterminds behind Superman so if anyone has any veracity on what comprises the 'essence' of Superman, it's undoubtedly these two guys. They wrote Superman's original adventures and they defined his characteristics. In Superman #1 we see Superman throw a man who was questioning some soldiers off a cliff and destroy an enemy plane. They were enemy combatants but Superman was still a far cry from the 'every life is sacred' attitude he would later develop.
Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster would continue to highlight Superman's willingness to take emphatic and life ending action in Superman #2. Here Superman blows up a munitions factory in broad daylight, there had to be dozens of workers in there if not more. Next we see Clark Kent put three criminals on trial and he even takes the stand against them in Court to secure the death sentence for all three of them. Superman is apparently pro death penalty and he does it all to impress Lois Lane, not from any burning desire to see justice done.
Next we see Superman allowing a domestic terrorist to die by his own toxic creation while he begs for help and Superman stands by and actually torments the would be terrorist as he is choking to death. Now I don't care who you are, that's cold, even for someone like The Punisher or Rorschach.
Let's fast forward to Superman #4, here we see Superman catching a bomb dropped by an aircraft, that's certainly heroic enough. Until he throws the bomb back at the aircraft, destroying it. And in the next panel we see Superman sabotage a criminals brake system while they're driving down a mountain. Superman then escapes with Lois while the two occupants plummet to their deaths.
Superman's vehicular heroics continue in Superman #6 when two cars fall off a mountain, one works for The Daily Planet and the other is a car full of criminals. It's an easy guess who Superman saves but he is not the least bit conflicted by the criminals deaths, Superman even says "A well deserved fate!" while scanning the fiery wreckage. The next panel is an especially interesting one.
A cunning citizen discovers Superman's identity and tries to blackmail Superman. What was Superman's response you might be wondering, "Hasn't it occurred to you that I could snap your neck with these fingers and I'd never have to worry about being exposed!". Needless to say, the citizen is terrified and he runs for his life with Clark Kent in pursuit. The citizen gets to a flight of stairs and declares that he knows Superman's identity but Clark Kent manages to get in front of the man and then the man mysteriously tumbles down the stairs and dies before he can spill Clark Kent's secret. Whether Clark Kent pushed him down the stairs or not is not clear so it's up to you to decide but it is an extremely convenient accident.
Here, a would be assassins bullet ricochets off a wall and kills himself and the ever altruistic Superman quips "A murderer's fate!". When Superman rushes to a building it is blown up by a demolition crew yet for some inexplicable reason, Superman catches some falling steel and throws it directly on top of some innocent bystanders. The caption says that Superman threw the debris in an empty lot but you can clearly see it squashes two civilians. The civilians are even screaming "NO, NO!".
Moving on to Superman #8. We see Superman scout out a hidden army consisting of at least two platoons, so Superman takes it upon himself to kill every living person he found there. Superman even says that there's "Not a soul left alive - except for myself!".
General Zod and Superman are once again at the forefront of Superman's life ending proclivities, this time in Action Comics #805. Superman breaks Zod's neck again although apparently not quite enough to kill him but Zod charges straight back into battle and Superman viciously elbows Zod in his stomach and Zod literally drops dead.
I'm pretty sure you saw me bring up the golden age before as far as Superman goes with him being a jerk and reckless. All of I think got regulated to being comics about Superman the real hero in the comics right around the silver age and superheroes were making money again.So like I thought they gave Superman an out like they usually do like I just said. This recent example just proves my point. He intended to kill her and doesn't. He thinks he has no other choice so instead of him actually killing her he just asks for forgiveness but doesn't become a murderer.Here's a more recent example an dprobably the best example of killing as a last resort.
In Superman #03, In an attempt to free a hostage from an alien sentience, Superman unleashes the full power of his heat vision upon her alien form expecting to kill her, Superman even begs for forgiveness as he does it and while he ultimately doesn't kill her, Superman did fully intend to end her life for the greater good.
And those examples are just of Supermans killings on humans, doesn't even count the monsters or armies of aliens he has killed and destroyed. That also excludes him killing via mind control or other cop outs as you say.
In the end, Superman has killed and even for the original creator of the character, it is the norm.
ITS NOT THE NORM.
don't play dumb in order to win an arguemnt.
You know as well as I that if superman killed someone in a comic tomorrow it will be met with a fire storm of critiscm.
picking through 70 years of superan stories is pointless exercise because we know that killing is a taboo part of the character.
my critques aren't new
the movie faces massive amounts of critism upon its release:
the movie reviewed poorly. Criticized by notable comic people. joe qusada, mark waid (writer of many of the elements that are in MOS).
the mere fact that were sitting here arguing about superman killing subverts your argument, we all know that the mythos of superman is he doesn't kill
Mark Waid confirming what I suspected all along.
:x
What you're saying here doesn't even make sense. MOS ending was what an homage to Supes' creator having Superman kill but in all sequels it'll be updated to modern day sensibilities?
ITS NOT THE NORM.
don't play dumb in order to win an arguemnt.
You know as well as I that if superman killed someone in a comic tomorrow it will be met with a fire storm of critiscm.
picking through 70 years of superan stories is pointless exercise because we know that killing is a taboo part of the character.
my critques aren't new
the movie faces massive amounts of critism upon its release:
the movie reviewed poorly. Criticized by notable comic people. joe qusada, mark waid (writer of many of the elements that are in MOS).
the mere fact that were sitting here arguing about superman killing subverts your argument, we all know that the mythos of superman is he doesn't kill
Read what I wrote again please.
To the creators, TO THE CREATORS! That is clear by the comics scans I posted.
It isn't the norm today, that is evident and why I keep saying Supes isn't going to be a murderer from now on. He has to learn the consequence of killing someone but to you, Supes just doesn't kill, plain and simple.
This is a Superman misconception and mostly, people just hate Superman to hate on Superman.
If Superman's creator was really seeing murder as a natural solution for Superman, Lex Luthor would be dead, and every other villain would be dead. He'd be a GOD amongst men and rule as one. The golden age is filled with a bunch of stupid silly ideas for a comic to meet deadlines. Referencing the comics in this way isn't really addressing the topic when it comes to the image of Superman on a local, national, or global scale. All of those issues by the creator don't even rate. If this was the accepted Superman he'd be a villain. He'd kill all of his foes and be done with it. It'd be worse than injustice or the justice lords or the crime syndicate versions.
I mean at the end of the day we can both create an ending there or not create one if we do not follow or accept the movies ending. Based off of what happened in the film and Supes not being a super genius and brand new at what he is doing, it'll take forever to for him to come up with a solution if he could at all. They'd have to be punching each other until the whole planet is destroyed.
Let me rudely interrupt this discussion with some possible news....
Could thing be the THING?
What you're saying here doesn't even make sense. MOS ending was what an homage to Supes' creator having Superman kill but in all sequels it'll be updated to modern day sensibilities?
ITS NOT THE NORM.
don't play dumb in order to win an arguemnt.
You know as well as I that if superman killed someone in a comic tomorrow it will be met with a fire storm of critiscm.
picking through 70 years of superan stories is pointless exercise because we know that killing is a taboo part of the character.
my critques aren't new
the movie faces massive amounts of critism upon its release:
the movie reviewed poorly. Criticized by notable comic people. joe qusada, mark waid (writer of many of the elements that are in MOS).
the mere fact that were sitting here arguing about superman killing subverts your argument, we all know that the mythos of superman is he doesn't kill
Read what I wrote again please.
To the creators, TO THE CREATORS! That is clear by the comics scans I posted.
It isn't the norm today, that is evident and why I keep saying Supes isn't going to be a murderer from now on. He has to learn the consequence of killing someone but to you, Supes just doesn't kill, plain and simple.
This is a Superman misconception and mostly, people just hate Superman to hate on Superman.
I mean really c'mon
I mean keep in mind these are stories written during World War 2 where Supes would at times kill communists, nazis, and the Japanese for America with Supes power set being relatively different or inconsistent.
No. I think you missed what I explicitly said about him killing in general in the comics compared to what was done in his origin movie. To go along with my other reply referencing he has killed in the comics isn't even addressing what this discussion actually is. Nobody has said Superman hasn't killed in the comics.
It doesn't count cuz those same creators and editors retconned those stories out of continuity. They count if you're specifically discussing golden age but that's not what this is about. I kinda feel you didn't read what I originally said about the golden age Superman. To be even clearer golden age Superman isn't the essence or full ideal of Superman. Not if you actually read these nonsensical stories; Superman fakes his death cuz he thinks Lois wants him to propose, Superman decides cars should be banned after somebody dies in a car accident and begins to start throwing cars with ppl off the streets, etc.
No It's not baseless. The movie LITERALLY could not go on forever from a logistical stand point to a logical stand point. There is literally no basis you could come up with to say the movie would go on forever if Superman doesn't kill Zod.
It's as baseless as you saying it won't.
If Zod could fly the entire time during the fight why didn't he? Cuz at this point you're just ignoring what happened in the movie. He couldn't fly the entire time and you seem to be purposely ignoring that when addressing my alternative options despite me specifically telling you what I'm talking about and when.
I didn't say that and no I'm not acting like that. It'd take time to do but it'd be faster than spaceship.
Who said he'd spot it just by looking up? Who said he'd spot it out of nowhere millions of lightyears away?
It's not even these days. Those issues are from the damn 30s and 40s during the war
I've said this countless of times, the only thing we disagreed on is his options. I feel they showed he had no other options, you obviously see it differently but I am sure you've read me write that countless of times.
I don't think it depict Supes as a murderer in the media either, he had reason to do it and it was for the better of the humanity in the film.
What you're saying here doesn't even make sense. MOS ending was what an homage to Supes' creator having Superman kill but in all sequels it'll be updated to modern day sensibilities?
ITS NOT THE NORM.
don't play dumb in order to win an arguemnt.
You know as well as I that if superman killed someone in a comic tomorrow it will be met with a fire storm of critiscm.
picking through 70 years of superan stories is pointless exercise because we know that killing is a taboo part of the character.
my critques aren't new
the movie faces massive amounts of critism upon its release:
the movie reviewed poorly. Criticized by notable comic people. joe qusada, mark waid (writer of many of the elements that are in MOS).
the mere fact that were sitting here arguing about superman killing subverts your argument, we all know that the mythos of superman is he doesn't kill
Read what I wrote again please.
To the creators, TO THE CREATORS! That is clear by the comics scans I posted.
It isn't the norm today, that is evident and why I keep saying Supes isn't going to be a murderer from now on. He has to learn the consequence of killing someone but to you, Supes just doesn't kill, plain and simple.
This is a Superman misconception and mostly, people just hate Superman to hate on Superman.
I mean really c'mon
I mean keep in mind these are stories written during World War 2 where Supes would at times kill communists, nazis, and the Japanese for America with Supes power set being relatively different or inconsistent.
Look at the comics, they made Supes do it in every issue. You admitted it yourself, he was killing let and right.
These days, that wouldn't fly. But again, why can't dude just experience and learn from it? It's like you guys just choose to ignore that Superman can't be perfect and should be perfect. Why is this so hard for people to understand.
I never said killing was a homage to the creators, where did that come from? Osh Kosh was saying its not "Superman" to kill, it never was who he is but Golden Age or not, it was and he did. He kept saying it was never his "essence" but as proof, it was at one point that he was not against killing. That was the point I was trying to prove there with those scans. Silly ideas or not, whether it would fly now or not, Supes killed and right off of the creators pens and it was part of their vision. Now they aren't portraying as a serial killer or mass murderer, he killed those who he deemed justified by it. The creators didn't write him as a serial killer but he did kill to stop crime or major threats. That is a fact.
I'll end my end of the argument on this here because no matter what I say, admit it or not but there are Superman hate sipping through some of these posts and just there to pick apart something. Some will always find a reason to hate on WB or Superman no matter what. (not pointing any fingers but it happens) Plus I just typed and wrote stuff that apparently will be disregarded anyways because they aren't relevant or canon even though it still proved that "Superman Killed" based off of the original creators pages themselves, which was the main argument to begin with. Everything will just be interpreted the other way around anyways.
Back to comic con news now... PLEASE!
Last on the subject I promise. Come on now. Who would take that literally? I thought it was obvious it just meant it'll take a long time for the movie the way they set up that ending and with Supes having almost no options left. I mean in the end, you can say "he should paralyze him" but Movie writer (like stupid Goyer) could easily say "Zod can't be paralyzed or Supes wouldn't know how to" then you'd present another option and Goyer could shot that down again and that could continue on for a long time. Like I've said before, their endgame is to have Supes kill Zod and to do it with no other options. They obviously felt there weren't any valid options there and they killed Zod when they did. Others may not feel the same way and could keep creating options but if the writer truly just wants to kill Zod, there is almost nothing you can say where he or other can't counter it with another scenario to deliver the audience Zods death. 
If they're cherry picking what type of Supes they want to portray then it's no wonder how we got what we got.
Let me rudely interrupt this discussion with some possible news....
Could thing be the THING?
Looks like stone dude from the planet hulk cartoon movie
