The Official Anime & Manga Thread Vol: 三

[lexlieno]

pretty much. Jiraiya was trained by the toads, I doubt Hiruzen taught tsunade medical ninjutsu, and oro well he was in his own bag. If anything, it was just the arrogance of Hanzo being the reason them being known as the sannin
and yes oro perfected ET, but also he made the edos mindless. That weakens them. Also they acted as bodyguards for most of the fight so Hiruzen couldnt get close to Oro. They didnt really do much else. Those are facts

He was their teacher.  If you think he didn't have an impact on them you're crazy. But, you're right.  He didn't do much even though he instructed and trained them to become competent ninja.

 

[blakep267]

He was their teacher.  If you think he didn't have an impact on them you're crazy. But, you're right.  He didn't do much even though he instructed and trained them to become competent ninja.

as I said. They were trained by others also. Do you think Kakashi, Jiraiya, or the toads had the biggest impact on Naruto? If not for sage mode, naruto would be dead. What was jiraiya's main focus? Summon toads, and his incomplete sage mode.

 

[2sappy]

pretty much. Jiraiya was trained by the toads, I doubt Hiruzen taught tsunade medical ninjutsu, and oro well he was in his own bag. If anything, it was just the arrogance of Hanzo being the reason them being known as the sannin
and yes oro perfected ET, but also he made the edos mindless. That weakens them. Also they acted as bodyguards for most of the fight so Hiruzen couldnt get close to Oro. They didnt really do much else. Those are facts

• hanzo's arrogance and the fact that they were the only ninja to have survived a fight against him to that point were probably the leading factors to them getting the sannin title.
• you can also say that kabuto perfected the combination of Edo Tensei and the mind control talisman. That would also be a fact.

 

[blakep267]

• hanzo's arrogance and the fact that they were the only ninja to have survived a fight against him to that point were probably the leading factors to them getting the sannin title.
• you can also say that kabuto perfected the combination of Edo Tensei and the mind control talisman. That would also be a fact.

When I say hanzo's arrogance, I mean it as he wasnt even the strongest ninja around at the time. Not taking anything away from the sannin. I could see if he was the best, but for all we know he was just some strong dude who beat alot of ninja

But when it comes to the strongest for me, you cant go off 10 year old quotes, when new info has been added. I ask for feats. What on paper has hiruzen done that was better than what Shodai or him by extension.

 

[2sappy]

But when it comes to the strongest for me, you cant go off 10 year old quotes, when new info has been added. I ask for feats. What on paper has hiruzen done that was better than what Shodai or him by extension.

here's what the wiki says about the third:

Spoiler: Pretty Long Read

Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi in history, so much so that he was admired as the God of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime and was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha ever had.[1][18][19] Even in his old age, he also said to be the strongest of all the five Kage at the time of his death.[2 Enma commented on his battle with Orochimaru, saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime, even though he had clearly been able to hold his own against Orochimaru and two former Hokage without losing his composure. Even in his old age, his chakra was noted for being very strong, causing a dense effect on the atmosphere when released;[21] furthermore, he was known for having immense reserves of chakra in his youth.[22] He was also the longest living and longest reigning Hokage. Hiruzen also had keen senses, being able to track down the former Hokage under Hashirama Senju's Bringer-of-Darkness Technique.[23]
Ninjutsu Edit
Hiruzen using the Dead Demon Consuming Seal.

Hiruzen was also called The Professor (プロフェッサー, Purofessā), due to his mastery of all forms of shinobi combat, and his vast knowledge of techniques, purportedly knowing all the techniques within Konoha.[24] In the anime, even Danzō, Hiruzen's life-long rival, openly acknowledged the Hokage's sheer prowess in utilising any technique as unsurpassed.[25] His title also came from creating a considerable arsenal of original techniques; one of which was the Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique. With this technique, he could create a thousand clones of a single thrown shuriken in an instant to overwhelm the opponent with the extreme difficultly in evading them all. This method also meant that he didn't have stock up on a lot of shuriken. To watch over the village, he would use the Telescope Technique, allowing him to observe others through his crystal ball over long distances.[26] Despite his diminished reserves of chakra in his old age, he also showed great chakra control, needing only the minimum amount of chakra to use each technique.
Nature Transformation Edit
Hiruzen using Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet.

Sarutobi was highly skilled in elemental ninjutsu, using Fire Release and Earth Release. Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet allowed him to exhale a stream of fire from his mouth. Earth Release: Earth Flow River created a river of mud beneath the opponent to throw them off balance, and he could use the mud with Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet, which creates a dragon's head that launches mud balls at an opponent. He had also been shown to be adept in combining elemental techniques, as seen when he ignited the mud ball projectiles with Fire Release: Fire Dragon Bullet, creating a stream of lava that can melt nearly anything. Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall allowed Hiruzen to spit a stream of mud that solidifies into a protective shield.
Summoning Technique Edit
A young Hiruzen with Enma.

Hiruzen also had a personal summon: Monkey King: Enma, who was capable of turning into a diamond-hard staff, which could alter its length and width at will, or become a cage to protect the summoner. The staff was Hiruzen's weapon of choice as he showed great proficiency in wielding it; he successfully pushed back Kurama with it during its attack on Konoha.[27] Enma could also manifest parts of his body and attack an enemy with his claws and fangs, which added an element of surprise.
Taijutsu Edit

In terms of taijutsu, Hiruzen displayed a very high level of it in old age. He was able to counter Tobirama and Hashirama in close combat, despite them being in their prime in the Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation. He could lay an explosive tag on each of them without them or Orochimaru who was controlling them even knowing. After summoning Enma, he could break Hashirama's Wood Release branches with ease.

Even when robbed of his sight from the genjutsu Bringer-of-Darkness Technique, he could still defend himself from Hashirama's and Tobirama's assaults, blocking all their attacks to prepare for his Dead Demon Consuming Seal. After sealing both former Hokage, he faced Orochimaru in single combat. Despite his sealing parts of his soul away in the Shinigami, as well as fighting for a prolonged amount of time before he engaged Orochimaru one on one, he effortlessly disarmed him of his sword.

Here's what it says about the first:

Spoiler: Also Semi Long Read

Hashirama is reputed as the most powerful shinobi of his era, having been called the strongest shinobi even by his enemy Madara Uchiha.[11][12] His strength was so greatly respected by the shinobi world that Madara himself claimed Hashirama was the one person whom they most admired and detested.[13] Kabuto claimed that Hashirama's might was so vast, there aren't any living shinobi in the current era that could match his level of power. It was such that many considered his prowess to be a mere fairy tale much like the existence of the Sage of the Six Paths.[14] The most common example was his ability to not only fight on equal footing with Madara despite his power of the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan and control over Kurama but even gained victory in and survived the battle. As a further testament of Hashirama's prowess, Madara mentioned that fighting all five of the current Kage was trivial compared to his battle with Hashirama, and that with only one of them alive, the landscape would not change as drastically — a reference to the battle that created an entire valley.[15]

As the leader of the Senju clan, Hashirama held tremendous proficiency in many shinobi skills and possessed a considerable understanding of those he did not. He held advanced ability in taijutsu with prodigious speed and strength. In addition, he was well-versed in genjutsu and could perform powerful illusions such as the Bringer-of-Darkness Technique.[16] In the anime he showed proficiency with both kenjutsu and fūinjutsu, carrying a scroll which he used to store a number of large swords for the former and in the latter, his use of the Contract Seal to break Madara's control over Kurama.[17]
Ninjutsu Edit
Medical Ninjutsu Edit

According to Madara, Hashirama was also able to use medical ninjutsu. His skill with which were such that he could heal himself without forming seals, and from the medical ninjutsu that his descendant Tsunade — who is considered to be the greatest medical-nin in the world as it is — has displayed, Madara surmised that his medical techniques were also on an entirely different level.[18] The fact that he could use medical ninjutsu demonstrates that Hashirama likely had excellent chakra control.[12]
Nature Transformation Edit
Hashirama using Wood Release.

He was most famous for his unique Wood Release techniques, a kekkei genkai that is a mixture of earth and water-natured chakra that creates this new element. By converting chakra into the source of life, he was able to create trees, causing them to grow to great sizes and manipulate them to diverse shapes and battle uses at will. It was said that this ability was used to create the very landscape and foundation that Konoha is built upon. This ability appeared to be exclusively his, as no other known member of his clan has ever displayed its use. Even those who obtained this power through unorthodox means, such as Yamato, stated that his use of Wood Release was much weaker in terms of raw power.[19] He could create clones of himself, massive forests, or create gigantic flowering trees which were able to put targets to sleep. In an instant, he could shape the entire battlefield for his own uses. Madara later stated that he was the only one who could tell the difference between Hashirama and his wood clones with his ocular powers.[2

Along with his kekkei genkai, Orochimaru also coveted Hashirama's unique ability to control tailed beasts.[21] Of all his considerable talents, it was this ability in particular that made Hashirama unparalleled in the shinobi world, so much so that he is regarded as one of the few people capable of completely controlling a tailed beast.[22] At one time, he had many of the beasts in his possession.[8] This ability was greatly amplified by his crystal necklace, which Yamato suggested that he required to control even Naruto's partial lapses into tailed forms.[23][24]

 

[lexlieno]

^all of which sums up my point.

 

[blakep267]

As I said. Show feats, not stuff from 10 years ago.

We just saw Madara use mokuton to create an entries forest with sleeping gas. Hiruzen has not been shown to do anything of that magnitude. Kilos writing today trumps something written years ago

 

[lexlieno]

As I said. Show feats, not stuff from 10 years ago.

Feats?!? These are facts. This isn't even worth talking about anymore because you're just talking out of your neck now. Both character bios are above, it clearly favors the Third. The funny part about what you just said is that you want stuff from now and not ten years ago, yet you're going off a guy who is talking abou stuff from waaaay past 10 years ago.

 

[blakep267]

Actually a lot of the stuff about the first was fairly recent. And I guess you don't beliee writers change "facts" as time goes on. It was fact that kakashi was 6 when he took the chuunin exam. It's now fact that he was actually much older. It may have been fact years ago, but kishi has written hashirama to be a powehouse for whatever reason. The Hilk wasn't that strong years ago. Now he's one of the strongest characters. Hashirama has powers that would've completely murked Hiruzen during that edo fight. Facts change. A quote by iruka way back in part 1 and recent revalations about hashirama now say you're wrong.

 

[2sappy]

Gentlemen, let us stop this arguing. it's getting ridiculous. You guys are starting to split hairs here. I mean come on, read this on Minato:

Spoiler: Jeebus guys

According to Jiraiya, Minato was one of the most gifted shinobi who ever lived[29] and was also believed to be one of the strongest shinobi that ever existed. His abilities were so far advanced that even the Fourth Raikage thought that no one would be able to surpass him.[12] Anko Mitarashi, in discussion with the Third Hokage about Orochimaru's immense strength and his threat to the village, stated that she wished the Fourth had been alive to face him.[3 At a young age, he was able to single handedly rescue Kushina from three Kumogakure ninja.[31] During the Third Shinobi World War, flee-on-sight orders were given to enemy shinobi should they ever see him appear on the battlefield.[32] Minato was also capable of counteracting the Nine-Tails' attacks to the point that Tobi found it necessary to intervene and stop Minato directly. After their battle, Tobi was forced to retreat due to being severely injured by Minato. He even complimented Minato and stated he was worthy of his title of "Fourth Hokage".[33]

Like Tobirama Senju, Minato could detect the presence of people within an area by simply placing his finger on the ground.[34] Minato's fighting style often excluded time consuming hand seals that give enemies an opening so he often relies on his two original techniques: the Flying Thunder God Technique and the Rasengan.
Taijutsu Edit
Minato saving Kakashi.

One of Minato's trademark attributes was his immense speed and instantaneous reflexes, able to react fast enough to catch an infant Naruto mid-fall to prevent him from being stabbed by Tobi.[35] This attribute earned him the moniker of "Konoha's Yellow Flash".[36] He could also respond to Tobi's Kamui technique quickly enough to escape it.[37] He is often referred to throughout the series as the fastest shinobi who ever lived, with the speed of the currently fastest living shinobi often being compared to his own, such as A or Naruto in his Nine-Tails Chakra Mode, with the former admitting that even with his Lightning Release Armour enhancing his already immense speed and reflexes was still outmatched by Minato.[12] Even when assisted by his brother, A was unable to lay a hand on Minato. When fighting, he mainly employed the use of his unique kunai, wielding them proficiently and taking advantage of their particular form, which made them even more suitable for close range combat than standard kunai. Using this type of kunai, he was able to nearly sever one of the Eight-Tails' tentacles when B moved to save his brother from Minato's counter-attack despite having nearly no leverage, showing that he possessed a great deal of strength.[38]
Ninjutsu Edit
Rasengan Edit
Minato demonstrating the dynamic creation of a Rasengan.

Minato spent three years creating the Rasengan by observing the Tailed Beast Ball.[39][4 It is the highest level of shape transformation and it does not require hand signs to be performed. Instead, using a concentration of spinning chakra in the form of a sphere in the user's palm, immense damage is inflicted to its target upon contact. As its creator, Minato had great mastery over the Rasengan, able to form it with one hand and his standard version — at one point — being larger than the Rasengan used by other characters (roughly the size of the Big Ball Rasengan). The lack of elaborate preparations needed for the Rasengan gave Minato an advantage over other technique users in battle. For example, in his fight with Tobi, he is able to form a Rasengan right after throwing his marked kunai at him, allowing Minato to land a devastating blow immediately after performing the Flying Thunder God Technique.

He had intended to combine the Rasengan with his own nature transformation, but the task was too difficult to complete before his untimely death.[41]
Space–Time Ninjutsu Edit
Minato's special kunai.

Minato was famous for his unique space–time technique, the Flying Thunder God Technique, which essentially allowed him to teleport to any location with untraceable movements Minato had through the use of special seals. By throwing kunai that had the seal attached to them behind enemy lines, Minato could wipe out an entire platoon in the blink of an eye.[42] Minato could teleport to his special kunai even as it travelled through the air.[43] He was also capable of applying the seal to solid surfaces with his bare hand, allowing him to tag opponents and give himself an easy way to track and reach them.[44] He also incorporated this seal formula into Kushina's seal so he could always come to her aid, at any time.[45]

For defensive use, Minato was capable of implementing space–time barriers to counter large attacks such as a Tailed Beast Ball, sending the blast to a distant area away from the village.[46] He was even able to teleport things as large as the Nine-Tails itself, albeit at the cost of a large portion of his chakra due to the beast's immense size.[47]
Fūinjutsu Edit
The key to the Nine-Tails' seal.

Minato was very knowledgeable in fūinjutsu, partially due to Kushina teaching him some of the Uzumaki clan's unique sealing techniques.[48] He knew the full capabilities of the Dead Demon Consuming Seal and was aware that he could not completely seal all of the Nine-Tails' chakra within the death god. Minato could also remove an opponent's ability to use the Summoning Technique.[49]

The greatest example of his prowess with fūinjutsu is the seal used on Naruto, placing two Four Symbols Seal to create the Eight Trigrams Sealing Style, which would allow small amounts of the Nine-Tails' chakra to leak out and naturally mix with Naruto's own.[5 Minato also sealed some of Kushina's and his own chakra within Naruto so that they could see him when he was older, and assist him in dealing with the beast.[51]
Summoning Technique Edit
Minato summons Gamabunta to stop Kurama.

In his youth, Jiraiya taught Minato how to use the Summoning Technique to summon toads. He was able to summon Gamabunta, showing considerably large reserves of chakra in doing so, and was one of the few people that Gamabunta would willingly cooperate with without hesitation.[52] He could use the Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique for a devastating surprise attack that could even pin powerful large targets like the Nine-Tails down.
Intelligence Edit

Minato was shown to be very intuitive and clever from a young age. Of the many ninja sent out to save Kushina from her Kumogakure kidnappers, Minato was the only one to notice the trail of hair she was leaving.[31] After seeing a technique once, he could correctly deduce the basic mechanics behind it, such as the strengths and weaknesses of Kakashi's Chidori.[53] During difficult events, he was still capable of maintaining his composure, assessing the situation, and devising appropriate plans of action. During his skirmish against Tobi, he was able to determine that his opponent didn't want to drag on their fight as he could not keep Kurama summoned for very long, as well as quickly ascertain a method of counter-attacking. Using this information, he was able to take advantage of Tobi's haste to not only wound him, but also remove his control over the beast as well.[54][55]

See, he was also considered the strongest that ever existed. So which one is it? the first, third, or fourth? Jeez... (btw, my money is on the 4th )
Can't we just agree that if there was a top 5, the 1st, 3rd, and 4th hokages would be in it (although order might vary)?

now let's turn our attention to other matters, why doesn't Ten Ten just die yet?

 

[lexlieno]

Actually a lot of the stuff about the first was fairly recent. And I guess you don't beliee writers change "facts" as time goes on. It was fact that kakashi was 6 when he took the chuunin exam. It's now fact that he was actually much older. It may have been fact years ago, but kishi has written hashirama to be a powehouse for whatever reason. The Hilk wasn't that strong years ago. Now he's one of the strongest characters. Hashirama has powers that would've completely murked Hiruzen during that edo fight. Facts change. A quote by iruka way back in part 1 and recent revalations about hashirama now say you're wrong.

I'm done bro. You mentioning the hulk in a debate between hokages just tells me debating isn't one of your strong qualities. If it clearly starts off saying he was the strongest hokage ever, then that means no hokage was stronger than him. It's simple comprehension. Not Mention he took him on out of his prime while the first was in his prime, and still was on point. We all know the sage is the strongest yet we've never seen him fight, yet we know he's the strongest so we accept it. Yet the manga says the third was the strongest hokage and we've seen him fight(out of his prime) and still handled 3 kage level opponents. I'm not saying the third is the strongest, I'm just saying if we're ranking folk and it's a FACT that the third was the strongest hokage, that TECHNICALLY means 3rd>1st and 2nd. So just factor that in when you put hashirama at #1. Also it said Minato was one of the strongest shinobis ever, not the strongest. Again, you have to read. But back to business, yes ten ten needs to die, ASAP.

 

[blakep267]

I used the Hull to show you that facts change. Nothing is concrete. A statement made in part one is not the end all be all. That's what you don't understand. Kishi changes things. It's not concrete. I can show you ten things that have been retconned.

Actually I don't think you know how to debate. I've showed you that this author has a penchant of changing stuff he has stated earlier. So your point of it being a fact goes out the window because he changes facts.

Also I showed u the panels of the fight. If u don't wanna believe them, fine. The 1st ad 2nd were relegated to bodyguards during the fight

 

[2sappy]

Also it said Minato was one of the strongest shinobis ever, not the strongest. Again, you have to read. But back to business, yes ten ten needs to die, ASAP.

• Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi in history, so much so that he was admired as the God of Shinobi
• Hashirama is reputed as the most powerful shinobi of his era, having been called the strongest shinobi even by his enemy Madara Uchiha.
• According to Jiraiya, Minato was one of the most gifted shinobi who ever lived, and was also believed to be one of the strongest shinobi that ever existed.

Their intros basically say the same things for all three. Like I said, we are just starting to split hairs here and playing the game of preference. All we are doing is basically arguing this:

• 3rd Hokage: The strongest of all time based on what some people in the current era say
• 1st Hokage: The strongest of all time based on what the second strongest of all time (IMO) says
• 4th Hokage: The strongest of all time based on what another of the strongest of all time says.

Like I keep saying, a matter of preference...

BUT, if you want to argue based on Empirical data (i.e: Facts/stuff we have seen), then I can make the argument that the 4th is the better of the three based solely on the fact that we have seen everything he was capable of as compared to the other three. We have seen why his peers respected him and his power. We have seen why his foes feared him (and why they put a flee on sight order against him). Madara/Orbito acknowledged his power. he even went toe to toe with Kurama and bested him to a point (no pun intended).
Now, with Hiruzen, I'm not gonna take away anything that you argued about him away (goin toe to toe with the former kages and that junk), but being called the strongest shinobi of all time during your prime, yet not showing any fight of said time frame really puts a dent in that argument. plus, that entry for hiruzen being the strongest hokage is flawed because it is never stated in the manga that he was the strongest out of all of them. the closest that the manga got was saying that he was the "best", but they never elaborated if he was the best in the village, the best alive, or the best of all time. Also, one of the official data books says this about the 3rd:

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

There is no Hokage in Konoha's history who was as popular with his people as Hiruzen. In addition to the ninjutsu expertise and skill for which he was nicknamed "The Professor", he bore in his heart a fatherly affection for the whole village of Konoha. Even for the rebellion-plotting Uchiha clan, he made no exception.

so, he might have been the most popular hokage of all time for all we know. it needs to be further elaborated upon, and corrected in the wiki if need be.

As for the first, it's all just a bunch of stories at this point. I want to see some real action outside of video game cutscenes of course. (that was an awesome scene in the game though. )

 

[samx562]

for da record iruka said the 3rd was the strongest hokage to his students

(thats where da reference came from)

 

[lexlieno]

here's what the wiki says about the third:

Spoiler: Pretty Long Read

Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi in history, so much so that he was admired as the God of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime and was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha ever had.[1][18][19] Even in his old age, he also said to be the strongest of all the five Kage at the time of his death.[2 Enma commented on his battle with Orochimaru, saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime, even though he had clearly been able to hold his own against Orochimaru and two former Hokage without losing his composure. Even in his old age, his chakra was noted for being very strong, causing a dense effect on the atmosphere when released;[21] furthermore, he was known for having immense reserves of chakra in his youth.[22] He was also the longest living and longest reigning Hokage. Hiruzen also had keen senses, being able to track down the former Hokage under Hashirama Senju's Bringer-of-Darkness Technique.[23]
Ninjutsu Edit
Hiruzen using the Dead Demon Consuming Seal.
Hiruzen was also called The Professor (プロフェッサー, Purofessā), due to his mastery of all forms of shinobi combat, and his vast knowledge of techniques, purportedly knowing all the techniques within Konoha.[24] In the anime, even Danzō, Hiruzen's life-long rival, openly acknowledged the Hokage's sheer prowess in utilising any technique as unsurpassed.[25] His title also came from creating a considerable arsenal of original techniques; one of which was the Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique. With this technique, he could create a thousand clones of a single thrown shuriken in an instant to overwhelm the opponent with the extreme difficultly in evading them all. This method also meant that he didn't have stock up on a lot of shuriken. To watch over the village, he would use the Telescope Technique, allowing him to observe others through his crystal ball over long distances.[26] Despite his diminished reserves of chakra in his old age, he also showed great chakra control, needing only the minimum amount of chakra to use each technique.
Nature Transformation Edit
Hiruzen using Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet.
Sarutobi was highly skilled in elemental ninjutsu, using Fire Release and Earth Release. Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet allowed him to exhale a stream of fire from his mouth. Earth Release: Earth Flow River created a river of mud beneath the opponent to throw them off balance, and he could use the mud with Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet, which creates a dragon's head that launches mud balls at an opponent. He had also been shown to be adept in combining elemental techniques, as seen when he ignited the mud ball projectiles with Fire Release: Fire Dragon Bullet, creating a stream of lava that can melt nearly anything. Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall allowed Hiruzen to spit a stream of mud that solidifies into a protective shield.
Summoning Technique Edit
A young Hiruzen with Enma.
Hiruzen also had a personal summon: Monkey King: Enma, who was capable of turning into a diamond-hard staff, which could alter its length and width at will, or become a cage to protect the summoner. The staff was Hiruzen's weapon of choice as he showed great proficiency in wielding it; he successfully pushed back Kurama with it during its attack on Konoha.[27] Enma could also manifest parts of his body and attack an enemy with his claws and fangs, which added an element of surprise.
Taijutsu Edit
In terms of taijutsu, Hiruzen displayed a very high level of it in old age. He was able to counter Tobirama and Hashirama in close combat, despite them being in their prime in the Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation. He could lay an explosive tag on each of them without them or Orochimaru who was controlling them even knowing. After summoning Enma, he could break Hashirama's Wood Release branches with ease.
Even when robbed of his sight from the genjutsu Bringer-of-Darkness Technique, he could still defend himself from Hashirama's and Tobirama's assaults, blocking all their attacks to prepare for his Dead Demon Consuming Seal. After sealing both former Hokage, he faced Orochimaru in single combat. Despite his sealing parts of his soul away in the Shinigami, as well as fighting for a prolonged amount of time before he engaged Orochimaru one on one, he effortlessly disarmed him of his sword.

Here's what it says about the first:

Spoiler: Also Semi Long Read

Hashirama is reputed as the most powerful shinobi of his era, having been called the strongest shinobi even by his enemy Madara Uchiha.[11][12] His strength was so greatly respected by the shinobi world that Madara himself claimed Hashirama was the one person whom they most admired and detested.[13] Kabuto claimed that Hashirama's might was so vast, there aren't any living shinobi in the current era that could match his level of power. It was such that many considered his prowess to be a mere fairy tale much like the existence of the Sage of the Six Paths.[14] The most common example was his ability to not only fight on equal footing with Madara despite his power of the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan and control over Kurama but even gained victory in and survived the battle. As a further testament of Hashirama's prowess, Madara mentioned that fighting all five of the current Kage was trivial compared to his battle with Hashirama, and that with only one of them alive, the landscape would not change as drastically — a reference to the battle that created an entire valley.[15]
As the leader of the Senju clan, Hashirama held tremendous proficiency in many shinobi skills and possessed a considerable understanding of those he did not. He held advanced ability in taijutsu with prodigious speed and strength. In addition, he was well-versed in genjutsu and could perform powerful illusions such as the Bringer-of-Darkness Technique.[16] In the anime he showed proficiency with both kenjutsu and fūinjutsu, carrying a scroll which he used to store a number of large swords for the former and in the latter, his use of the Contract Seal to break Madara's control over Kurama.[17]
Ninjutsu Edit
Medical Ninjutsu Edit
According to Madara, Hashirama was also able to use medical ninjutsu. His skill with which were such that he could heal himself without forming seals, and from the medical ninjutsu that his descendant Tsunade — who is considered to be the greatest medical-nin in the world as it is — has displayed, Madara surmised that his medical techniques were also on an entirely different level.[18] The fact that he could use medical ninjutsu demonstrates that Hashirama likely had excellent chakra control.[12]
Nature Transformation Edit
Hashirama using Wood Release.
He was most famous for his unique Wood Release techniques, a kekkei genkai that is a mixture of earth and water-natured chakra that creates this new element. By converting chakra into the source of life, he was able to create trees, causing them to grow to great sizes and manipulate them to diverse shapes and battle uses at will. It was said that this ability was used to create the very landscape and foundation that Konoha is built upon. This ability appeared to be exclusively his, as no other known member of his clan has ever displayed its use. Even those who obtained this power through unorthodox means, such as Yamato, stated that his use of Wood Release was much weaker in terms of raw power.[19] He could create clones of himself, massive forests, or create gigantic flowering trees which were able to put targets to sleep. In an instant, he could shape the entire battlefield for his own uses. Madara later stated that he was the only one who could tell the difference between Hashirama and his wood clones with his ocular powers.[2
Along with his kekkei genkai, Orochimaru also coveted Hashirama's unique ability to control tailed beasts.[21] Of all his considerable talents, it was this ability in particular that made Hashirama unparalleled in the shinobi world, so much so that he is regarded as one of the few people capable of completely controlling a tailed beast.[22] At one time, he had many of the beasts in his possession.[8] This ability was greatly amplified by his crystal necklace, which Yamato suggested that he required to control even Naruto's partial lapses into tailed forms.[23][24]

Hiruzen was one of the most powerful shinobi in history, so much so that he was admired as the God of Shinobi (忍の神, Shinobi no Kami) in his prime and was said to be the strongest Hokage that Konoha ever had.[1][18][19] Even in his old age, he also said to be the strongest of all the five Kage at the time of his death.[

Enma, who was capable of turning into a diamond-hard staff, which could alter its length and width at will, or become a cage to protect the summoner. The staff was Hiruzen's weapon of choice as he showed great proficiency in wielding it; he successfully pushed back Kurama with it during its attack on Konoha.[27] Enma could also manifest parts of his body and attack an enemy with his claws and fangs, which added an element of surprise.
Taijutsu Edit
In terms of taijutsu, Hiruzen displayed a very high level of it in old age. He was able to counter Tobirama and Hashirama in close combat, despite them being in their prime in the Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation. He could lay an explosive tag on each of them without them or Orochimaru who was controlling them even knowing. After summoning Enma, he could break Hashirama's Wood Release branches with ease.
Even when robbed of his sight from the genjutsu Bringer-of-Darkness Technique, he could still defend himself from Hashirama's and Tobirama's assaults, blocking all their attacks to prepare for his Dead Demon Consuming Seal. After sealing both former Hokage, he faced Orochimaru in single combat. Despite his sealing parts of his soul away in the Shinigami, as well as fighting for a prolonged amount of time before he engaged Orochimaru one on one, he effortlessly disarmed him of his sword.

[color= rgb(255, 255, 255)]Word, so everyone is just going to ignore this sentence right? Word. The guy even fought them blind and still was going in.[/color]

Let me breakdown the argument for you in pictures since obviously yall can't read.

Oro perfected Edo Tensei, check.

Summons the first and second IN THEIR PRIME.

Way past his prime while fighting  ORO, THE FIRST, AND THE SECOND.

Slight work. All im saying is that the people of the 3rds generation grew up looking at the 1st as the best, once they saw the 3rd in his prime(which was AFTER seing the 1st in his prime) said that the 3rd was the strongest hokage ever.

 

[2sappy]

Slight work. All im saying is that the people of the 3rds generation grew up looking at the 1st as the best, once they saw the 3rd in his prime(which was AFTER seing the 1st in his prime) said that the 3rd was the strongest hokage ever.

I am not disputing what he has done. I am disputing what has been said about him, and that part was never explicitly stated in the manga. Like Sam said:

for da record iruka said the 3rd was the strongest hokage to his students
(thats where da reference came from)

Iruka just said that in order to kiss the Hokage's ***** in front of his students. We don't know if it holds any true merit.

 

[lexlieno]

I am not disputing what he has done. I am disputing what has been said about him, and that part was never explicitly stated in the manga. Like Sam said:
Iruka just said that in order to kiss the Hokage's ***** in front of his students. We don't know if it holds any true merit.

 

[blakep267]

The point is things change. Do you think kishi planned on giving hashi all of these power ups when he said stuff years ago? As I said, from what we know of hashirama now, why wouldn't he just use sleeping gas on Hiruzen during their fight? We didn't see the second hokage use any space time techniques. This stuff was made after that fight happened. Your taking a fact from years ago and stating its still true, no matter what somebody like Madara says. And by the way I'm pretty sure he kept tabs on konoha.

and for the last time. I literally dont think you've read the manga. The 1st and 2nd barely fought Hiruzen. Orochimaru was just taunting him. Go back and look at the chapters. They stood there. Hashirama used 2 techniques, mokuton and the darkness, Tobirama used 2 water techs. Hashiramas mokuton caught hiruzen at which point he summoned enma. From there, oro fought Hiruzen with the kusanagi blade, until the first used the darkness. At which point hiruzen summoned the death god. Im not sure how 2 mindless edo's equal prime versions of either, when they just stood there the entire time. Hiruzen was desparate and he sealed his soul because he knew in a prolonged battle, oro would win. Thats not a victory, thats stalemating your oponent. Which brought konoha time, because oro couldnt use ninjutsu

 

[lexlieno]

The point is things change. Do you think kishi planned on giving hashi all of these power ups when he said stuff years ago? Ad I said, from what we know of hashirama now, why wouldn't he just use sleeping gas on Hiruzen during their fight? We didn't see the second hola he use any space time techniques. This stuff was made after that fight happened. Your taking a fact from years ago and stating its still true, no matter what somebody like Madara says. And by the way I'm pretty sure he kept tabs on konoha.

It's still hilarious to me that you're saying all this years ago.  Let me ask you something, why can't the first use any of the techs now??? Because he's dead thats why.  Meaning would it really matter in this case? Were learning something new about a dead man.  What im taking however, is a fact from the most recent time we've seen an immortal first hokage , IN HIS PRIME, fight the 3rd who's pushing 70' while having his brother, the second hokage, help him along side a kage level ninja, and the first still got the better of them.

But really tho. Blake, sap, this is getting old.  On another note, is anyone else as confused as to how Yama was murked off in only 1 hit? Dude spent the entire series as top dog and gets that one hitta quitta. 

 

[PRIME]

^^Who's your top 5 then?
Watching the Helmet splitter episode right nao

Blakep whats top 5 then

1. Hashirama ( dont need to explain)
2. madara
3. Hiruzen ( he knew every jutsu in the leaf according to the DB. knew death god, and he held his own at 70 + vs. oro and 2 watered down edo's
4. Itachi ( lets face it. Totsunoka sword, izanagi, izanami, ms, yata's mirror, shisui's eye, genius, awesome speed)
5. Minato

ok I redid my list. he is top 5. Id put niidaime in there if we knew a little more about him. But the fact that he created edo tensei says alot

and Im estimating Hiruzen's strength in his prime based off of what we saw in his old age

Itachi top 5. Dead or alive

 

[blakep267]

It's still hilarious to me that you're saying all this years ago.  Let me ask you something, why can't the first use any of the techs now??? Because he's dead thats why.  Meaning would it really matter in this case? Were learning something new about a dead man.  What im taking however, is a fact from the most recent time we've seen an immortal first hokage , IN HIS PRIME, fight the 3rd who's pushing 70' while having his brother, the second hokage, help him along side a kage level ninja, and the first still got the better of them.

But really tho. Blake, sap, this is getting old.  On another note, is anyone else as confused as to how Yama was murked off in only 1 hit? Dude spent the entire series as top dog and gets that one hitta quitta. 

Spoiler

Then after that last panel he summons the death god. Does tht look like prime to you? They were mindless body guards who literally didnt move the entire time. All you literally have is a statement by iruka in part 1.

 

[samx562]

all im sayin is the 3rd aint no meteor droppin poison forest summoning izanagi destiny changing dude
cuz the 3rd compared to the real gods nah.. all it is it praise just words but when it comes down 2 the fight.. when u think about it nah he aint touchin em..
no special blood line limit techniques
not even a decedent from the sages blood line
cant control tailed beast either
just a lucky kid that was trained by the first and second hokage


being excellent in taijutsu and ninjutsu is cool but thats scratchin the surface when u talking about skilled uchihas/senjus/jinchurikis etc

-flame suit-

 

[lexlieno]

Spoiler

Then after that last panel he summons the death god. Does tht look like prime to you? They were mindless body guards who literally didnt move the entire time. All you literally have is a statement by iruka in part 1.

It's funny how you posted most of the chapter and left out the most crucial part.  That they weren't mindless body guards(which are your words and not the mangas), in fact they were in their  "true form".

.  

This whole debate you've literally done nothing, but give opinions.  

Anyways, what was up with the DoFlamingo flash in OP?

 

[blakep267]

It's funny how you posted most of the chapter and left out the most crucial part.  That they weren't mindless body guards(which are your words and not the mangas), in fact they were in their  "true form".
.  

This whole debate you've literally done nothing, but give opinions.  
Anyways, what was up with the DoFlamingo flash in OP?

ok, now Im witholding pages. Sure guy. Go ahead and read 118-123, nobody is stopping you. Also they were mindless. When kabuto did the handsign, he made zabuza mindless. you do notice how oro kept the handsign everytime they did something

still remains. they did nothing and only attacked Hiruzen in defense of oro.

Spoiler

bottom left panel

 

[tdogg2k]

I would like to say that this is probably the best manga debate I've been apart of.
Not those silly try to predict what will happen debates, but a true debate of stuff that has been revealed.
Thank you for filling out time of my day where i was doing nothing.


Idk if any of you guys are old enough but has anyone ever played a game called Destrega
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destrega

It was a fighting game and the whole thing was like a rock paper scissor type battle.

SPEED, POWER, MAGIC(for this purpose Jutsus)
I don't remember exactly but I think it was Power beats Magic,
Magic beats speed
Speed beats Power.

1st Hokage would be Power
3rd Hokage would be Magic/jutsus
4th Hokage would be speed.

Not saying the matches would go down like that but my point is. all the ninjas are different, so i think it would come down to battle strategy. These are all OD strong Ninjas it could come down to something simple as to who wins and gets beat.

I sort of lean more towards the 3rd just because he knew a lot and the chakra reserve was a lot in his prime.
I mean He proved to know enough to hold off the 1st and 2nd.

but we also dont know what would happen in a battle with conditions the way Madara explained the butt whoopings 1st was giving him.

so its all a toss up.

For everyoen saying Itachi/ Madara , the only reason I dont put them in the top 3 (above those hokages atleast, or even the 2nd raikage) is because they all pretty much have proved they can overcome the shariigan. (rai prolly from being to fast)