The Official Anime & Manga Thread Vol: 三

This is where you're right and wrong at the same time. We as readers cannot dispute it, but Kishi can to his heart's content, since he's writing it.

This^^. I would've liked it if there were no continuity errors (i.e. Hiruzen staying the strongest hokage), but there's not much we can do about it.
Yes, Kishi can, its his manga.  However, at this moment he hasn't.  Like you said, we can't dispute it. Which is what this guy is trying to do, but it's just not working.

I don't understand how we all saw the 2 guys we're talking about fight and we clearly saw the direction it was heading in.  It was a handicap match from the jump too! Yet he doesn't see it the same way lmao.
the 2nd hokage didn't use any of his space time jutsus that were on par with minato/obito's though.  hashi didn't use his poison gas forest or any of thatother stuff.

i'm sure that hiruzen would have jsut used wind/fire/ whatever to counter them because he was nice, but the point is your whole argument is based on a nickname and a fight where we clearly saw hiruzen was out of his prime and the edo clones werent using 1/5th of their abilities.

we can only go by what kishi wants us to believe and by hyping up madara as the beast that he is currently, then we have no choice but to accept the real hashirama was at least double the beast.  and madara himself said that hashi was unmatched.

yes hiruzen was called the strongest, but i think we're to believe that was all speculation and it's now being shown false.

i mean for a while, to go back to the dbz analogy, didn't everyone say that frieza was the baddest?  authors retcon power levels in comics all the time to suit their purposes.  you WERE right about hiruzen.  it's clear now though that kishi wants that not to be the case anymore.
 
so your main argument comes back to a nickname. really. thats all.
So because Madara has no nickname, the fact that everybody is quivering in their boots at him means nothing. Madara mutha ****** Uchiha, the guy who drops meteors is invalidated because of not having a nickname. Ok guy
That's not my main argument, but it's still a valid point. How many people were called the God of Shinobi?? One...who was that one? The guy who made the ninja world. Thats some pretty serious company. What did go over your head was the point that The 1st, who was aware of what was going on and wasn't some mindless zombie, in his true form and was immortal still couldn't kill the 3rd.  The 3rd is just too much for the 1st man. Accept it.  The funny part is, the 1st and 2nd couldn't even kill him when he was blind.....the guy couldn't see a thing yet he was still alive.  You do know that after sealing 2 other people, he tried sealing oro with a sword in his back for an hour right?? So after fight the 1st and 2nd and getting stabbed through the back, he still fought on for an hour......
 
the 2nd hokage didn't use any of his space time jutsus that were on par with minato/obito's though.  hashi didn't use his poison gas forest or any of thatother stuff.

i'm sure that hiruzen would have jsut used wind/fire/ whatever to counter them because he was nice, but the point is your whole argument is based on a nickname and a fight where we clearly saw hiruzen was out of his prime and the edo clones werent using 1/5th of their abilities.

we can only go by what kishi wants us to believe and by hyping up madara as the beast that he is currently, then we have no choice but to accept the real hashirama was at least double the beast.  and madara himself said that hashi was unmatched.

yes hiruzen was called the strongest, but i think we're to believe that was all speculation and it's now being shown false.

i mean for a while, to go back to the dbz analogy, didn't everyone say that frieza was the baddest?  authors retcon power levels in comics all the time to suit their purposes.  you WERE right about hiruzen.  it's clear now though that kishi wants that not to be the case anymore.
So...the guy who knows every technique in the village used all his techniques too??? IF you can say that we didn't see the 1st and 2nd use this and that, I can easily say we didn't see the 3rd use any of his most powerful techs also.  Just go off what we saw, and what we saw was the 3rd go in.  My whole argument isn't based off a nickname, why do you guys keep saying that? It's a point but not my whole argument.  My argument is from the info from the manga and the only major fight we've seen which includes one of the guys you say is the strongest ninja when he was in his prime and immortal and still couldnt kill Hiruzen when he was in a miserable state.  

How do you call Kishi hyping up Hiruzen as speculation, but it's no speculation when he hypes up the 1st (who got handled by a 70 year old Hiruzen) and the Madara? So we wont go by Kishi saying he was the strongest hokage because??? 

Also to the clowns saying Madara can summon meteors, hes immortal.  Do you really think he would do it if he could die?? He knew what he was doing.
 
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So...the guy who knows every technique in the village used all his techniques too??? IF you can say that we didn't see the 1st and 2nd use this and that, I can easily say we didn't see the 3rd use any of his most powerful techs also.  Just go off what we saw, and what we saw was the 3rd go in.  My whole argument isn't based off a nickname, why do you guys keep saying that? It's a point but not my whole argument.  My argument is from the info from the manga and the only major fight we've seen which includes one of the guys you say is the strongest ninja when he was in his prime and immortal and still couldnt kill Hiruzen when he was in a miserable state.  

How do you call Kishi hyping up Hiruzen as speculation, but it's no speculation when he hypes up the 1st (who got handled by a 70 year old Hiruzen) and the Madara? So we wont go by Kishi saying he was the strongest hokage because??? 

Also to the clowns saying Madara can summon meteors, hes immortal.  Do you really think he would do it if he could die?? He knew what he was doing.

Then you're both at an impasse?? Cause neither was up to their supposed potential?


Anyways, I hope that Kishi can wrap up these dam flashbacks and get back to current times. Getting tired of them really :lol:
 
Lets settle down here.  No one know anything about Hiruzens Prime.  However we've SEEN what we can do OUT OF HIS PRIME.  Which grants him that hype.  We've seen him in action vs EXTREMELY reputable ninjas. 1 of which you claim is the strongest ninja since the sage himself, yet he was bested by Hiruzen.  There's a reason for the hype.  God of Shinobi, The strongest hokage ever, there's a reason why he's earned those titles.  With all these unknowns you keep referring to, you're overlooking the knowns, and the 3rd Hokage is known as the strongest.  GOD OF SHINOBI, let that marinate.  What was madaras nickname??? What was the firsts??? Did it involve being compared to a GOD??? No?? I didn't think so.

so your main argument comes back to a nickname. really. thats all.

So because Madara has no nickname, the fact that everybody is quivering in their boots at him means nothing. Madara mutha ****** Uchiha, the guy who drops meteors is invalidated because of not having a nickname. Ok guy

:rofl: im sayin..
dude is taking nicknames overboard
 
I'd like to say again this is the longest and best debate this thread has seen.. (maybe a little too long with same words being said)

Here are 3 questions that support neither 1st or 3rd directly

1. When Kisame and Itachi used the dead man clones vs. team guy it was said that the dead clones were only 1/5 of the actual chakra power of Kisame and Itachi right...and thats just what they gave the clones. which was a jutsu that used and knew thanks to ourchi.
Now with that said. the chakra used for the edo tensei of the 1st and 2nd had to had come from who?????? Orouchi right.
so its hard to believe 1st and 2nd were at their fullest... even with Hiruzen saying there fast and sharp as ever, of course they would be vs a 70 year old man.


2. The war now is the 3rd ninja war right. 2nd was with the 9 tails going crazy... and hiruzen was old (possibly 60s)
so when was the 1st, and even with their even being a first we must assume 3rd hokage had to been apart of that, because what other great accomplishment would get him to being called the greatest? There had to been a war correct.....
But can we also assume Madara was apart of that 1st war, whether it be with konoha or against it. .. I would say madara would know who the 3rd was.
Onoki is how old..>??? and he met Madara near his middle ages/young adult. We have to assume 3rd was around then.

3rd. You can't deny that Harishmas cells is whats fueling this entire new edo tensei, his chakra is important and obviously very very vast.
and they say 2nd's was just as vast.

Now i believe the 3rd hokage is very very very great....but there is no way the edo he fought was a 100% vs. both of them..

And there is NO WAY anyone can prove they were...

And answer this, If ORO could summon these 2 at full strength the whole time, and his only desire was to destroy the leaf, why in the heck didn't he do it from the beginning , 1st and 2nd coulda handled the leaf fairly easily and if that 3rd coffin happened to be Madara well... lets be real no one in konoha could stand all 3.


As for the possiblity to Why the Sandaime COULD HAVE BEEN stronger then the Shodaime and the Nidaime, I think Kakashi put it best, "The new Generation will always surpass the old Generation.



funny how this same debate came up 3 years ago http://www.narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27354
 
lots of naruto talk in here, but did luffy just offer jinbei a contract to play for the straw hats? (i just finished my 3 month catch up of one piece)

tumblr_mc97p07ieN1r0po6qo1_500.gif
 
I'd like to say again this is the longest and best debate this thread has seen.. (maybe a little too long with same words being said)
Here are 3 questions that support neither 1st or 3rd directly
1. When Kisame and Itachi used the dead man clones vs. team guy it was said that the dead clones were only 1/5 of the actual chakra power of Kisame and Itachi right...and thats just what they gave the clones. which was a jutsu that used and knew thanks to ourchi.
Now with that said. the chakra used for the edo tensei of the 1st and 2nd had to had come from who?????? Orouchi right.
so its hard to believe 1st and 2nd were at their fullest... even with Hiruzen saying there fast and sharp as ever, of course they would be vs a 70 year old man.
2. The war now is the 3rd ninja war right. 2nd was with the 9 tails going crazy... and hiruzen was old (possibly 60s)
so when was the 1st, and even with their even being a first we must assume 3rd hokage had to been apart of that, because what other great accomplishment would get him to being called the greatest? There had to been a war correct.....
But can we also assume Madara was apart of that 1st war, whether it be with konoha or against it. .. I would say madara would know who the 3rd was.
Onoki is how old..>??? and he met Madara near his middle ages/young adult. We have to assume 3rd was around then.
3rd. You can't deny that Harishmas cells is whats fueling this entire new edo tensei, his chakra is important and obviously very very vast.
and they say 2nd's was just as vast.
Now i believe the 3rd hokage is very very very great....but there is no way the edo he fought was a 100% vs. both of them..
And there is NO WAY anyone can prove they were...
And answer this, If ORO could summon these 2 at full strength the whole time, and his only desire was to destroy the leaf, why in the heck didn't he do it from the beginning , 1st and 2nd coulda handled the leaf fairly easily and if that 3rd coffin happened to be Madara well... lets be real no one in konoha could stand all 3.
As for the possiblity to Why the Sandaime COULD HAVE BEEN stronger then the Shodaime and the Nidaime, I think Kakashi put it best, "The new Generation will always surpass the old Generation.
funny how this same debate came up 3 years ago http://www.narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27354

this is the 4th ninja war going on now. The 1st war was shortly after Shodai gave away bijuus etc. The 2nd hokage died during this war ( letting his team escape). The 2nd ninja war took place when jiraiya was in his early 20's ( when the fought hanzo and became saanin. also when jiraiya met nagato). 3rd war was with minato, obito, kakashi etc. Hiruzen wouldve been hokage during the 2nd, but probably wouldnt have actually fought in the war

Ooniki is in his 90's or so
 
I'd like to say again this is the longest and best debate this thread has seen.. (maybe a little too long with same words being said)
Here are 3 questions that support neither 1st or 3rd directly
1. When Kisame and Itachi used the dead man clones vs. team guy it was said that the dead clones were only 1/5 of the actual chakra power of Kisame and Itachi right...and thats just what they gave the clones. which was a jutsu that used and knew thanks to ourchi.
Now with that said. the chakra used for the edo tensei of the 1st and 2nd had to had come from who?????? Orouchi right.
so its hard to believe 1st and 2nd were at their fullest... even with Hiruzen saying there fast and sharp as ever, of course they would be vs a 70 year old man.
2. The war now is the 3rd ninja war right. 2nd was with the 9 tails going crazy... and hiruzen was old (possibly 60s)
so when was the 1st, and even with their even being a first we must assume 3rd hokage had to been apart of that, because what other great accomplishment would get him to being called the greatest? There had to been a war correct.....
But can we also assume Madara was apart of that 1st war, whether it be with konoha or against it. .. I would say madara would know who the 3rd was.
Onoki is how old..>??? and he met Madara near his middle ages/young adult. We have to assume 3rd was around then.
3rd. You can't deny that Harishmas cells is whats fueling this entire new edo tensei, his chakra is important and obviously very very vast.
and they say 2nd's was just as vast.
Now i believe the 3rd hokage is very very very great....but there is no way the edo he fought was a 100% vs. both of them..
And there is NO WAY anyone can prove they were...
And answer this, If ORO could summon these 2 at full strength the whole time, and his only desire was to destroy the leaf, why in the heck didn't he do it from the beginning , 1st and 2nd coulda handled the leaf fairly easily and if that 3rd coffin happened to be Madara well... lets be real no one in konoha could stand all 3.
As for the possiblity to Why the Sandaime COULD HAVE BEEN stronger then the Shodaime and the Nidaime, I think Kakashi put it best, "The new Generation will always surpass the old Generation.
funny how this same debate came up 3 years ago http://www.narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27354
You have the wars wrong, but how do you only discuss them.  Even if they weren't at 100% was Hiruzen? No he was a shell of himself.  He was 70.  All I'm saying is don't try to downplay the hokages without taking into account that hiruzen himself wasn't at his strongest.  They were in their "true forms" and immortal.  Yet, they couldn't kill him.  The blinded him and still couldn't kill him. It was 3 v 1 and he still didn't get killed by them.  Dude was too raw. Y'all are missing the point. You're talking about cells and stuff Madara is saying, go to the fight.  You wanted feats, what more can I say?? How many ninjas  who aren't immortal in this entire manga took on 3 kage level opponents at the same time and got the best out of them??? None, because only he could do it.  You have oro, mass murdering killing machine, the 1st dude wipes out platoons with ease, and his younger brother who's almost just as good.  Yet, knowing they couldn't die, they still didn't get the job done.
 
I dont see the hype in SAO at all.
I just watched all the episodes out so far and i really wasnt impressed at all. People were making it seem like this was one of the greatest animes ever but its really not all that.

I'd compare it to Mirai Nikki in that the story had so much potential, but the story wasn't executed that well. Something like Full Metal Alchemist where the base of the story was great as well, but never fell off like SAO or Mirai Nikki. SAO is still a good show, but in terms of all time greats I don't see it, but it had a chance to be.
 
So much blasphemy going on right now, and it's because dudes don't pay attention to the nuances of language when reading; said I'd stay out, but I gotta add my piece...:lol:

Who is the strongest Hokage? The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?

Honestly, to figure out who was the strongest, one needs only to refer to the following images:

Exhibit A:

1000



Exhibit B:

1000




In exhibit A, we are witness to the ANBU shinobi stating that the1st and 2nd are "the best shinobi." The term "best" describes something of the highest degree. It is synonymous with superlative; thus, in stating that the 1st and 2nd are "the best shinobi", this highly skilled, advanced, and knowledgeable shinobi is proclaiming that the 1st and 2nd Hokage are shinobies of the highest quality.

The tense of the proclamation is also very important. Notice that the ANBU black-op shinobi states that: "they are the Hokage-sama's who [COLOR=#red]ARE[/COLOR] both hailed as being the best shinobi...." The point of emphasis here is that, the ANBU black-op is speaking in the present, or I should say, offering insight into a present day belief. Consider the following two sentences:

"...they are the Hokage-sama's who [COLOR=#red]WERE[/COLOR] both hailed as being the best shinobi...."

vs.

"...they are the Hokage-sama's who [COLOR=#red]ARE[/COLOR] both hailed as being the best shinobi...."


Catch the difference?

The tense of the former sentence is rooted in the past, implying that the notion of the Hokage-sama's being the best shinobies is a belief that is largely rooted in the historic past. Conversely, the tense of the latter sentence is rooted in the present; here, then, the implication is that even in the present, the Hokage-sama's are still held and viewed to be the best shinobies.

It is worth noting that the ANBU black-op declared the Hokage-sama's as being best even while he was in the presence of the third. In other words, even though there are 3 hokages here, it is still quite clear that those two ARE the best.


Moving on, exhibit B...

Orochimaru proclaims to the third: "even you, he who was hailed as the god of the shinobi cannot defear old age...." Here to, the tense of the statement clues us in on what is really being said as far as "god of shinobi" is concerned.

Notice that Oro specifically said, "he who [COLOR=#red]was[/COLOR] hailed...", and not "he who [COLOR=#red]is[/COLOR] hailed...."

The fact that Oro is speaking in past tense, and not present tense, when referring to Hiruzen's title as "the god of shinobi," informs us that Hiruzen was at some point in the past, indeed, the strongest shinobi in the naruto verse--effectively earning him the title of "god of shinobi." However, at present, such is no longer the case; at present, he is NOT the strongest shinobi, he is NOT the god of the shinobi, and consequently, he cannot be deemed the strongest shinobi ever. For a brief period in time, in the past, he was undoubtedly the strongest shinobi, and that's why he earned the nickname "god of shinobi." But like I said, times have changed, and well, you can't crown someone to be the supreme champion when the someone in question actually lost their championship-self in the past.


***

At the end of the day, though it's fun discussing these "issues", in the end, the arguments are kinda pointless because it's all speculation. To me, this is the anime version of the classic, "who is the better bball player, Lebron or Jordan or Kobe or Wilt or Dr.J etc"? :lol:

We'll never know because they all played in different eras of bball (with exception to 'Bron and Kobe), where the dyanamics of the game were different and the athletes themselves were different, making it impossible to really compare and contrast these exceptional athletes.

Same thing with Naruto. We will never determine, outright, who was the strongest shinobi in the Naruto verse because each great shinobi was specified by the circumstances of his or her era, thus rendering useless, comparisons across eras. The 1st and 2nd were the strongest in their eras; the 3rd in his; and the 4th, likely, in his. Remember though, that there are other great Shinobi of Legend outside the Leaf. How do you figure y'all would rank them, as I am sure, in their very own villages, they were also viewed to be the "best".

BUTTTTT...if we really had to pick the strongest Shinobi, my vote would go to...



1000



:lol:




...
 
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So much blasphemy going on right now, and it's because dudes don't pay attention to the nuances of language when reading; said I'd stay out, but I gotta add my piece...
laugh.gif

Who is the strongest Hokage? The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?
Honestly, to figure out who was the strongest, one needs only to refer to the following images:
Exhibit A:

Exhibit B:

In exhibit A, we are witness to the ANBU shinobi stating that the1st and 2nd are "the best shinobi." The term "best" describes something of the highest degree. It is synonymous with superlative; thus, in stating that the 1st and 2nd are "the best shinobi", this highly skilled, advanced, and knowledgeable shinobi is proclaiming that the 1st and 2nd Hokage are shinobies of the highest quality.
The tense of the proclamation is also very important. Notice that the ANBU black-op shinobi states that: "they are the Hokage-sama's who ARE both hailed as being the best shinobi...." The point of emphasis here is that, the ANBU black-op is speaking in the present, or I should say, offering insight into a present day belief. Consider the following two sentences:
"...they are the Hokage-sama's who WERE both hailed as being the best shinobi...."
vs.
"...they are the Hokage-sama's who ARE both hailed as being the best shinobi...."
Catch the difference?
The tense of the former sentence is rooted in the past, implying that the notion of the Hokage-sama's being the best shinobies is a belief that is largely rooted in the historic past. Conversely, the tense of the latter sentence is rooted in the present; here, then, the implication is that even in the present, the Hokage-sama's are still held and viewed to be the best shinobies.
It is worth noting that the ANBU black-op declared the Hokage-sama's as being best even while he was in the presence of the third. In other words, even though there are 3 hokages here, it is still quite clear that those two ARE the best.
Moving on, exhibit B...
Orochimaru proclaims to the third: "even you, he who was hailed as the god of the shinobi cannot defear old age...." Here to, the tense of the statement clues us in on what is really being said as far as "god of shinobi" is concerned.
Notice that Oro specifically said, "he who was hailed...", and not "he who is hailed...."
The fact that Oro is speaking in past tense, and not present tense, when referring to Hiruzen's title as "the god of shinobi," informs us that Hiruzen was at some point in the past, indeed, the strongest shinobi in the naruto verse--effectively earning him the title of "god of shinobi." However, at present, such is no longer the case; at present, he is NOT the strongest shinobi, he is NOT the god of the shinobi, and consequently, he cannot be deemed the strongest shinobi ever. For a brief period in time, in the past, he was undoubtedly the strongest shinobi, and that's why he earned the nickname "god of shinobi." But like I said, times have changed, and well, you can't crown someone to be the supreme champion when the someone in question actually lost their championship-self in the past.
***
At the end of the day, though it's fun discussing these "issues", in the end, the arguments are kinda pointless because it's all speculation. To me, this is the anime version of the classic, "who is the better bball player, Lebron or Jordan or Kobe or Wilt or Dr.J etc"?
laugh.gif

We'll never know because they all played in different eras of bball (with exception to 'Bron and Kobe), where the dyanamics of the game were different and the athletes themselves were different, making it impossible to really compare and contrast these exceptional athletes.
Same thing with Naruto. We will never determine, outright, who was the strongest shinobi in the Naruto verse because each great shinobi was specified by the circumstances of his or her era, thus rendering useless, comparisons across eras. The 1st and 2nd were the strongest in their eras; the 3rd in his; and the 4th, likely, in his. Remember though, that there are other great Shinobi of Legend outside the Leaf. How do you figure y'all would rank them, as I am sure, in their very own villages, they were also viewed to be the "best".
BUTTTTT...if we really had to pick the strongest Shinobi, my vote would go to...
laugh.gif
...
You do know the 2nd picture obviously states that the 3rd is out of his prime.  There's no denying that. I've clearly stated it.  If your point was to say that those 2 were the best, then in their immortal states why couldn't the 2 of them plus oro kill the 3rd? If they were so boss, why would they let themselves be sealed?  

But this is getting pointless.  Even though the databooks to the manga clearly call the 3rd the strongest hokage ever, were just going to ignore that i guess. *shrugs*.
 
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You do know the 2nd picture obviously states that the 3rd is out of his prime.  There's no denying that. I've clearly stated it.   


But this is getting pointless.  Even though the databooks to the manga clearly call the 3rd the strongest hokage ever, were just going to ignore that i guess. *shrugs*.

yes, now you get it. You make it seem as if Kishimoto is a literary god who doesnt contradict himself on a regular basis. There are things in the databooks, that are not true today. As of today, it is more convenient for Shodai to be the strongest as a way of benchmarking Madara. Years ago, it was convenient for Hiruzen to be the strongest to justify a 70 year old man beating Oro( in a sense). Minato was diminished, or Obito was greatly increased ( either way) to make the fight between the 2 interesting. This was convenient for Kishi. Theres no way Obito in a year, could even sniff the bootstraps of minato.

If your point was to say that those 2 were the best, then in their immortal states why couldn't the 2 of them plus oro kill the 3rd? If they were so boss, why would they let themselves be sealed?
because its convenient aka Plot no jutsu. Somebody picking up Naruto for the first time today and reading it in reverse order would probably say, "hmm. That doesnt make sense. Why didnt Hashirama do this, or that. Why didnt orochimaru do this. etc". Naruto still has to advance the plot. Kishi isnt an author who pays attention to things in the past. Often times, its like he forgets what he wrote.

Naruto as a genin beat a bijuu. We see nowadays that that is a pretty hard feat. But you had to have naruto overcome that fight somehow
 
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yes, now you get it. You make it seem as if Kishimoto is a literary god who doesnt contradict himself on a regular basis. There are things in the databooks, that are not true today. As of today, it is more convenient for Shodai to be the strongest as a way of benchmarking Madara. Years ago, it was convenient for Hiruzen to be the strongest to justify a 70 year old man beating Oro( in a sense). Minato was diminished, or Obito was greatly increased ( either way) to make the fight between the 2 interesting. This was convenient for Kishi. Theres no way Obito in a year, could even sniff the bootstraps of minato.
because its convenient aka Plot no jutsu. Somebody picking up Naruto for the first time today and reading it in reverse order would probably say, "hmm. That doesnt make sense. Why didnt Hashirama do this, or that. Why didnt orochimaru do this. etc". Naruto still has to advance the plot. Kishi isnt an author who pays attention to things in the past. Often times, its like he forgets what he wrote.
Naruto as a genin beat a bijuu. We see nowadays that that is a pretty hard feat. But you had to have naruto overcome that fight somehow
Why would you read a manga in reverse?  They stated in 2 databooks, so even if it was a mistake why would you even bring it up again if you didn't want it to be?  You say he beat oro "in a sense" what about the second hokage and first hokage?  He did more damage to them than oro.  
 
i had my wars mixed up but that still doesnt mean hiruzen wasnt alive during the 1st was just probably a kid. and from what we know so far it seems like they know if the kids are going to be great or not
 
i had my wars mixed up but that still doesnt mean hiruzen wasnt alive during the 1st was just probably a kid. and from what we know so far it seems like they know if the kids are going to be great or not
Hiruzen was alive and was doing missions similar to what kakakshi and his team were doing I believe.
 
Why would you read a manga in reverse?  They stated in 2 databooks, so even if it was a mistake why would you even bring it up again if you didn't want it to be?  You say he beat oro "in a sense" what about the second hokage and first hokage?  He did more damage to them than oro.  

I didnt say it was a mistake. I said, it was changed.

I said in a sense, because Oro is still alive chilling with sasuke. So it was a hollow defeat.

Oro was controlling them, and as you said already, why would an edo need to dodge an attack when they are immortal. Madara doesnt care if he gets hit with a meteor. So why would exploding tags be any real concern. And I give Hiruzen catching them in the death god, but I raise to you, why wouldnt niidai just teleport away once hiruzen grabbed him. Thats the point. When you introduce todays ''facts'', they mak yesterdays seem ******ed and a reach. The plot dictated hiruzen win. But as I just said, if a book has multiple inaccuracies, why would you take it as fact. The databooks are a good ref to villages etc, but I dont take them seriously for strengths, when things are still being added.

and hiruzen was on a team with danzo and the other 2 council members with tobirama as their leader. This was in danzo's flashback during the sasuke fight
 
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I didnt say it was a mistake. I said, it was changed.
I said in a sense, because Oro is still alive chilling with sasuke. So it was a hollow defeat.
Oro was controlling them, and as you said already, why would an edo need to dodge an attack when they are immortal. Madara doesnt care if he gets hit with a meteor. So why would exploding tags be any real concern. And I give Hiruzen catching them in the death god, but I raise to you, why wouldnt niidai just teleport away once hiruzen grabbed him. Thats the point. When you introduce todays ''facts'', they mak yesterdays seem ******ed and a reach. The plot dictated hiruzen win. But as I just said, if a book has multiple inaccuracies, why would you take it as fact. The databooks are a good ref to villages etc, but I dont take them seriously for strengths, when things are still being added.
and hiruzen was on a team with danzo and the other 2 council members with tobirama as their leader. This was in danzo's flashback during the sasuke fight
Then why is this still going on? You're doing the what if and why didn't thing again. Use what you know.  We don't know all of he 3rds techs..what if he had a space time blocker jutsu? Or what if hes immune to the sleeping plants? We don't know his full extent.  All we know is he got the better of 3 kage level ninjas and was referred to as the strongest Hokage ever and strongest kage at the time of his death.  Accept it.
 
Anti I gave you the reps but F U for that spoiler :smh:

Anyway....

I just reread those chapters... that wasn't much of a fight. And I think Hiruzen only did that technique because he knew he wasn't able to beat those two.
 
still neutralized 3 kage level opponents by himself.  I doubt anyone else can do that( no edos or s0t6ps).
 
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still neutralized 3 kage level opponents by himself.  I doubt anyone else can do that( no edos or s0t6ps).

what he did, wasnt any greater than naruto in sage mode, beating 5 out of the 6 paths of Pain ( hinata and minato intervened, allowing naruto to beat god realm). The paths, used 1 main technique, same as the edos. Could be brought back to life via a path, and were controlled by another person.

I just reread those chapters... that wasn't much of a fight. And I think Hiruzen only did that technique because he knew he wasn't able to beat those two.

Thank you. Its not like they were actively non stop blitzing him. Orochimaru was screwing around with Hiruzen. Hiruzen wasnt able to beat them, so he sealed his soul away. thats not a win. Thats a last ditch effort to temporarily stop the main threat. If he could actually handle them, he wouldve without killing himself
 
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what he did, wasnt any greater than naruto in sage mode, beating 5 out of the 6 paths of Pain ( hinata and minato intervened, allowing naruto to beat god realm). The paths, used 1 main technique, same as the edos. Could be brought back to life via a path, and were controlled by another person.
Thank you. Its not like they were actively non stop blitzing him. Orochimaru was screwing around with Hiruzen

Thats actually a great point.
but.........
each path could only do one thing, and it doesnt seem like any were as great as what the 1st could do alone.

but I also think not having a battle tactic kind of hurt that fight too, it does seem like they were all out attacking whether they were doing jutsus together or not. doesnt seem like 1st and 2nd were like.. Ok well hiruzen used wind so i'll use fire.. or anything like that.
 
Thats actually a great point.
but.........
each path could only do one thing, and it doesnt seem like any were as great as what the 1st could do alone.
but I also think not having a battle tactic kind of hurt that fight too, it does seem like they were all out attacking whether they were doing jutsus together or not. doesnt seem like 1st and 2nd were like.. Ok well hiruzen used wind so i'll use fire.. or anything like that.
Hashirama only used mokuton and darkness, and tobirama used a suiton. Thats 3 jutsus used by 2 kages. They werent pulling out their entire arsenals.

but also I mean, 1 had unlimited summons, soul snatching, energy sucking, missile stuff ( i dont even know what that 1 path represented) etc. there was a wide variety of stuff being thrown at naruto, more so than what Hiruzen faced
 
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