NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Addict4Sneakers

Originally Posted by LDJ

Originally Posted by mizzoe33

Great thread, you overlooked KG's defensive player of the year award in 07-08. Might want to fix that.

Prime kg.dirk. Do to the fact while not winning his individual game on both ends of the floor exceeds dirks, overall in the span of each of their careers. Not saying dirk just became a good player, but the time at which he has played great hasnt been a longer tenure then the time kg played at his peak.

longer tenure? where do you draw that conclusion?

especially since Dirk still in his prime and showing minimal signs of slowing down.

But even still dirk while offensively has a slight edge over kg, kg overall def/off at any point in his prime years hell years period well defensively is leagues ahead of any output dirk has had at any point of his career. kg was great at both ends, dirk is only great in one aspect scoring/ oh and being a clutch player. give me 25+ a night 13 rebounds 2-3 blocks 40-45% shooting all while being a defensive juggernault over 27 pts 7 or so rebounds and a ok defender. The edge dirk has offensively isnt nowhere near the defensive edge kg had in his prime years.
  

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Addict4Sneakers

Originally Posted by LDJ

Originally Posted by mizzoe33

Great thread, you overlooked KG's defensive player of the year award in 07-08. Might want to fix that.

Prime kg.dirk. Do to the fact while not winning his individual game on both ends of the floor exceeds dirks, overall in the span of each of their careers. Not saying dirk just became a good player, but the time at which he has played great hasnt been a longer tenure then the time kg played at his peak.

longer tenure? where do you draw that conclusion?

especially since Dirk still in his prime and showing minimal signs of slowing down.

But even still dirk while offensively has a slight edge over kg, kg overall def/off at any point in his prime years hell years period well defensively is leagues ahead of any output dirk has had at any point of his career. kg was great at both ends, dirk is only great in one aspect scoring/ oh and being a clutch player. give me 25+ a night 13 rebounds 2-3 blocks 40-45% shooting all while being a defensive juggernault over 27 pts 7 or so rebounds and a ok defender. The edge dirk has offensively isnt nowhere near the defensive edge kg had in his prime years.
  

 

[N41D]

Simmons has said Dirk was on the verge of Pantheon status for him in 06... Winning a Finals is gonna be big for dirk in regards to what Simmons does with him...

I don't think there's a case to be made for KG over Dirk, even right now, but when he gets a ring? Pfffft.

The edge dirk has offensively isnt nowhere near the defensive edge kg had in his prime years.
Dirk has carried a franchise for over a decade and made two Finals appearances as the only legitimate all-star on either roster.. KG never got anywhere with Minnesota.

 

[N41D]

Simmons has said Dirk was on the verge of Pantheon status for him in 06... Winning a Finals is gonna be big for dirk in regards to what Simmons does with him...

I don't think there's a case to be made for KG over Dirk, even right now, but when he gets a ring? Pfffft.

The edge dirk has offensively isnt nowhere near the defensive edge kg had in his prime years.
Dirk has carried a franchise for over a decade and made two Finals appearances as the only legitimate all-star on either roster.. KG never got anywhere with Minnesota.

 

[shatterkneesinc]

dirks d has improved dramatically

 

[shatterkneesinc]

dirks d has improved dramatically

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

Simmons has said Dirk was on the verge of Pantheon status for him in 06... Winning a Finals is gonna be big for dirk in regards to what Simmons does with him...

I don't think there's a case to be made for KG over Dirk, even right now, but when he gets a ring? Pfffft.

The edge dirk has offensively isnt nowhere near the defensive edge kg had in his prime years.

Dirk has carried a franchise for over a decade and made two Finals appearances as the only legitimate all-star on either roster.. KG never got anywhere with Minnesota.


correct but thats an entire team effort, i thought we where discuss players as in which one has a better overall game. Plus dallas has always had a decent to good team. Minny um not so much. And again like i said his edge is his team success and slightly in the offensive skill set, and even that is questionable. His team success doesnt negate him being a better overall player, especially on the defensive end then kg. Rodman didnt lead a team for decades, but is he a better defender then dirk sure he is.

Again team success aside what about dirks overall game specifically puts him ahead of kg, over malone, over barkley, who if compared teams success dallas has better results then any of them outside maybe the jazz?

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

Simmons has said Dirk was on the verge of Pantheon status for him in 06... Winning a Finals is gonna be big for dirk in regards to what Simmons does with him...

I don't think there's a case to be made for KG over Dirk, even right now, but when he gets a ring? Pfffft.

The edge dirk has offensively isnt nowhere near the defensive edge kg had in his prime years.

Dirk has carried a franchise for over a decade and made two Finals appearances as the only legitimate all-star on either roster.. KG never got anywhere with Minnesota.


correct but thats an entire team effort, i thought we where discuss players as in which one has a better overall game. Plus dallas has always had a decent to good team. Minny um not so much. And again like i said his edge is his team success and slightly in the offensive skill set, and even that is questionable. His team success doesnt negate him being a better overall player, especially on the defensive end then kg. Rodman didnt lead a team for decades, but is he a better defender then dirk sure he is.

Again team success aside what about dirks overall game specifically puts him ahead of kg, over malone, over barkley, who if compared teams success dallas has better results then any of them outside maybe the jazz?

 

[N41D]

Look at their playoff career stats and tell me who is better when the heat turns up... It's not close.

KG also takes a huge hit from me for always being afraid of the big shot in crunch time. Dude's whole career is like LeBron's 4th quarter resume for this Finals.

 

[N41D]

Look at their playoff career stats and tell me who is better when the heat turns up... It's not close.

KG also takes a huge hit from me for always being afraid of the big shot in crunch time. Dude's whole career is like LeBron's 4th quarter resume for this Finals.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

Look at their playoff career stats and tell me who is better when the heat turns up... It's not close.

KG also takes a huge hit from me for always being afraid of the big shot in crunch time. Dude's whole career is like LeBron's 4th quarter resume for this Finals.

Thats one part of a season, lets look at all aspects, shooting, skillset, defense, leadership, every aspect which makes a player individual great. The only aspect in which dirk edges out kg is team success and not being afraid to take/make clutch shots. If thats all this is the basis of being a great player then dirk would be the undisputed 2nd best pf. He has more success playoff wise then malone, esp if they win the finals, more then barkley.

that logic could be used to say chauncey billups>kidd and nash hell even stockton gp. Did he not lead a team to a championship and multi ecf's? Has he not been more clutch/made big shots then either of those players? And he has had more team success then either of those players? Didnt he win finals MVP?

But if you equate all aspects of their individual games you can clearly see that any of those players are better then chauncey.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

Look at their playoff career stats and tell me who is better when the heat turns up... It's not close.

KG also takes a huge hit from me for always being afraid of the big shot in crunch time. Dude's whole career is like LeBron's 4th quarter resume for this Finals.

Thats one part of a season, lets look at all aspects, shooting, skillset, defense, leadership, every aspect which makes a player individual great. The only aspect in which dirk edges out kg is team success and not being afraid to take/make clutch shots. If thats all this is the basis of being a great player then dirk would be the undisputed 2nd best pf. He has more success playoff wise then malone, esp if they win the finals, more then barkley.

that logic could be used to say chauncey billups>kidd and nash hell even stockton gp. Did he not lead a team to a championship and multi ecf's? Has he not been more clutch/made big shots then either of those players? And he has had more team success then either of those players? Didnt he win finals MVP?

But if you equate all aspects of their individual games you can clearly see that any of those players are better then chauncey.

 

[N41D]

Whether you like it or not, team success and being big in the clutch are a major part of a player's legacy...

And Chauncey > Kidd? Kidd went to two Finals with Kenyon and a bunch of scrubs... Kidd's on the verge of getting his ring. Kidd is undisputably better than Chauncey, it's not close... Nash is undisputedly a better player than Chauncey. So were Stockton and GP...

In a case of Dirk/KG, it's close, and the fact that Dirk has been bigger and better with the spotlight on him and played on bigger stages more often pushes him over the top.

Do you ever remember one big-time, spotlight is shining and he's gotta do something big moment where KG wowed you? Because I really don't. Not ever. That's a huge blackmark on a guy's legacy.


And on top of that... When they went head-to-head, did KG ever beat Dirk? Because I remember Dirk consistently getting the better end of that matchup...

 

[N41D]

Whether you like it or not, team success and being big in the clutch are a major part of a player's legacy...

And Chauncey > Kidd? Kidd went to two Finals with Kenyon and a bunch of scrubs... Kidd's on the verge of getting his ring. Kidd is undisputably better than Chauncey, it's not close... Nash is undisputedly a better player than Chauncey. So were Stockton and GP...

In a case of Dirk/KG, it's close, and the fact that Dirk has been bigger and better with the spotlight on him and played on bigger stages more often pushes him over the top.

Do you ever remember one big-time, spotlight is shining and he's gotta do something big moment where KG wowed you? Because I really don't. Not ever. That's a huge blackmark on a guy's legacy.


And on top of that... When they went head-to-head, did KG ever beat Dirk? Because I remember Dirk consistently getting the better end of that matchup...

 

[bhzmafia14]

Originally Posted by OneTrust

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense.  Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West.  KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.

I really don't even see how someone can argue KGirk anymore, KG won 1 chip with two HOF's who were still both playing at a high level.  Dirk got robbed of one, and might win another and the 2nd best player on those teams were Jason Terry

.  Take away Dirk and put KG on the Mavs dude might not carry them into the playoffs even.

If I'm making an all-time great team, KG then makes sense for his defense and versatility (In Simmons term, the Wine Cellar) but if I want a guy to be the alpha dog on my team I take Dirk over Kg 1,000 times out of 1,000.

Agreed!  respect!

  

As crazy as that sounds, you're right. 

At the same time, do you think it was more at which teams weren't peaking at the right time? Not to take anything away from Dirk and the Mavs at all, but the Lakers weren't the Lakers during that 05-06 season. If I'm not mistaken, they were out the 1st round that year. KG led Minnesota to 8 straight playoff appearances even though they resulted in 1st round exits. The year they made it to the WCF, they had to face Malone, Payton, Kobe and Shaq. Can you really say KG's core during those 8 years were better than Dirk's?

Dirk did at least play with guys like Nash, Finley, Terry, Jamison, etc. guys who could at least give you 20 on any given night. The best player KG had (not counting the first few seasons when Gugliotta was on the team, lets say 2000  and up)    was Brandon, Wally, Cassell and Spree. Whether you want to say those guys were better than anyone Dirk had is a different story, but I wouldn't say so. Not to mention outside of the main guys on that team, how was Minnesota bench compared to Dallas? Minnesota had some bad luck in faces LAL or the Spurs in the 1st round the years they may have had a chance at going deep. One year they faced that Dallas team in the 1st round who had Nash, Finley, NVE, Lafrentz and Howard.

But, what Dirk did was very impressive. Dirk never had a bunch of bums on his team though. He had some pretty good players or at least better players than KG had IMO. He had Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Caron Butler, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd, etc. He was never by himself. He had a lot more than what Lebron ever had in Cleveland.

 

[bhzmafia14]

Originally Posted by OneTrust

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense.  Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West.  KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.

I really don't even see how someone can argue KGirk anymore, KG won 1 chip with two HOF's who were still both playing at a high level.  Dirk got robbed of one, and might win another and the 2nd best player on those teams were Jason Terry

.  Take away Dirk and put KG on the Mavs dude might not carry them into the playoffs even.

If I'm making an all-time great team, KG then makes sense for his defense and versatility (In Simmons term, the Wine Cellar) but if I want a guy to be the alpha dog on my team I take Dirk over Kg 1,000 times out of 1,000.

Agreed!  respect!

  

As crazy as that sounds, you're right. 

At the same time, do you think it was more at which teams weren't peaking at the right time? Not to take anything away from Dirk and the Mavs at all, but the Lakers weren't the Lakers during that 05-06 season. If I'm not mistaken, they were out the 1st round that year. KG led Minnesota to 8 straight playoff appearances even though they resulted in 1st round exits. The year they made it to the WCF, they had to face Malone, Payton, Kobe and Shaq. Can you really say KG's core during those 8 years were better than Dirk's?

Dirk did at least play with guys like Nash, Finley, Terry, Jamison, etc. guys who could at least give you 20 on any given night. The best player KG had (not counting the first few seasons when Gugliotta was on the team, lets say 2000  and up)    was Brandon, Wally, Cassell and Spree. Whether you want to say those guys were better than anyone Dirk had is a different story, but I wouldn't say so. Not to mention outside of the main guys on that team, how was Minnesota bench compared to Dallas? Minnesota had some bad luck in faces LAL or the Spurs in the 1st round the years they may have had a chance at going deep. One year they faced that Dallas team in the 1st round who had Nash, Finley, NVE, Lafrentz and Howard.

But, what Dirk did was very impressive. Dirk never had a bunch of bums on his team though. He had some pretty good players or at least better players than KG had IMO. He had Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Caron Butler, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd, etc. He was never by himself. He had a lot more than what Lebron ever had in Cleveland.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

Whether you like it or not, team success and being big in the clutch are a major part of a player's legacy...

And Chauncey > Kidd? Kidd went to two Finals with Kenyon and a bunch of scrubs... Kidd's on the verge of getting his ring. Kidd is undisputably better than Chauncey, it's not close... Nash is undisputedly a better player than Chauncey. So were Stockton and GP...

In a case of Dirk/KG, it's close, and the fact that Dirk has been bigger and better with the spotlight on him and played on bigger stages more often pushes him over the top.

Do you ever remember one big-time, spotlight is shining and he's gotta do something big moment where KG wowed you? Because I really don't. Not ever. That's a huge blackmark on a guy's legacy.


And on top of that... When they went head-to-head, did KG ever beat Dirk? Because I remember Dirk consistently getting the better end of that matchup...

But regardless of what type of players kidd had, because if thats the case the argument could be in favor that dirks dallas teams>any team kg had in minny. And until kidd wins a championship, he still is one behind billups, and he will did lead that nets team they failed to win the big one, and even then it was his passing, good decision making skills that made that team successful, not his clutch shooting etc, like chauncey did. Chauncey arguably that championship run pretty much was involved in every big play clutch moment in that series, and in their 6 year run.

Also he has had since we are talking clutch post season success, more then gp/nash/stockton etc. Thats a fact. And those sonics teams/suns teams and especially jazz teams had a far better roster then the detroit team. Jazz had two top 50 players, and a great sg in hornecek. sonics had a great nucleus with gp/kemp schrempt who at the time was kinda hailed like dirk is now, and nate mcmillian. End of the day stokcton/gp/nas didnt lead will these teams to win, hell they didnt even win. And the team success was not more then the detroit pistons, a team in which billups was the undisputed leader of the team, and lead them to 6 great yrs 4 ecfs 2 final appearances, a championship, and a finals mvp. That cannot be said about any of the aforementioned.

Gary was a great leader etc but lets not act like he carried the team, he was mostly a fascilitator, and a lock down defender. Stockton wasnt the clutch offensive player, who lead the team and hit the big shots. it was chek and malone. And the same goes for nash. We can honestly say that whenever the pistons needed a big shot, key play, it was going to be in some sort of fashion in billups hands. And again like i said if we are going off of post season play he has had more success, and had the biggest effect on the team success then any of the others guards due to the fact that he succeeded where all the others failed.
 
So again im saying based on your comparison of the two between kg/dirk. That would entail by your logic dirk is the undisputed 2nd best pf of all time. He has had better team success at least from a post-season aspect, and has lead/willed his team more times then barkley/malone etc.. So are you saying that td,dirk everyone else. I mean i respect your opinion but i cant just place him as second best pf to play the game. Top 5 yes. 2nd best not quite.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

Whether you like it or not, team success and being big in the clutch are a major part of a player's legacy...

And Chauncey > Kidd? Kidd went to two Finals with Kenyon and a bunch of scrubs... Kidd's on the verge of getting his ring. Kidd is undisputably better than Chauncey, it's not close... Nash is undisputedly a better player than Chauncey. So were Stockton and GP...

In a case of Dirk/KG, it's close, and the fact that Dirk has been bigger and better with the spotlight on him and played on bigger stages more often pushes him over the top.

Do you ever remember one big-time, spotlight is shining and he's gotta do something big moment where KG wowed you? Because I really don't. Not ever. That's a huge blackmark on a guy's legacy.


And on top of that... When they went head-to-head, did KG ever beat Dirk? Because I remember Dirk consistently getting the better end of that matchup...

But regardless of what type of players kidd had, because if thats the case the argument could be in favor that dirks dallas teams>any team kg had in minny. And until kidd wins a championship, he still is one behind billups, and he will did lead that nets team they failed to win the big one, and even then it was his passing, good decision making skills that made that team successful, not his clutch shooting etc, like chauncey did. Chauncey arguably that championship run pretty much was involved in every big play clutch moment in that series, and in their 6 year run.

Also he has had since we are talking clutch post season success, more then gp/nash/stockton etc. Thats a fact. And those sonics teams/suns teams and especially jazz teams had a far better roster then the detroit team. Jazz had two top 50 players, and a great sg in hornecek. sonics had a great nucleus with gp/kemp schrempt who at the time was kinda hailed like dirk is now, and nate mcmillian. End of the day stokcton/gp/nas didnt lead will these teams to win, hell they didnt even win. And the team success was not more then the detroit pistons, a team in which billups was the undisputed leader of the team, and lead them to 6 great yrs 4 ecfs 2 final appearances, a championship, and a finals mvp. That cannot be said about any of the aforementioned.

Gary was a great leader etc but lets not act like he carried the team, he was mostly a fascilitator, and a lock down defender. Stockton wasnt the clutch offensive player, who lead the team and hit the big shots. it was chek and malone. And the same goes for nash. We can honestly say that whenever the pistons needed a big shot, key play, it was going to be in some sort of fashion in billups hands. And again like i said if we are going off of post season play he has had more success, and had the biggest effect on the team success then any of the others guards due to the fact that he succeeded where all the others failed.
 
So again im saying based on your comparison of the two between kg/dirk. That would entail by your logic dirk is the undisputed 2nd best pf of all time. He has had better team success at least from a post-season aspect, and has lead/willed his team more times then barkley/malone etc.. So are you saying that td,dirk everyone else. I mean i respect your opinion but i cant just place him as second best pf to play the game. Top 5 yes. 2nd best not quite.

 

[university of nike]

I'm going to have so much fun with this thread... after the finals are over. I don't think I can do much until then, though.

I will throw this out, for discussion/arguments sake - I think that Ray Allen is one of the more underrated players in the league. He doesn't have the hardware to back up his game, but I absolutely love watching him play. His shot, the way he utilizes screens, his conditioning and work ethic, the fact that he seems "ageless" - amazing to me. His percentages this last year were the best of his career, and he played solid all the way into the playoffs <minus game 2 (I think?) > against Miami.

And if you guys can watch get a hold of some 2005-2006 highlights...

  He was raining that entire season - that was some fun basketball to watch. Speaking of fun... the Kobe/Ray feud is always good for some laughs (Gives Ray daps after he sets the three point record, then says he's going to bust that !$! at the All-Star game).

Oh, and the Reggie Miller / Ray Allen debate should be over at this point. I'll entertain the argument if someone wants to bring it, but it's pretty much sewn up at this point.

25k points, 3k threes, 45-40-90. Great career.

 

[university of nike]

I'm going to have so much fun with this thread... after the finals are over. I don't think I can do much until then, though.

I will throw this out, for discussion/arguments sake - I think that Ray Allen is one of the more underrated players in the league. He doesn't have the hardware to back up his game, but I absolutely love watching him play. His shot, the way he utilizes screens, his conditioning and work ethic, the fact that he seems "ageless" - amazing to me. His percentages this last year were the best of his career, and he played solid all the way into the playoffs <minus game 2 (I think?) > against Miami.

And if you guys can watch get a hold of some 2005-2006 highlights...

  He was raining that entire season - that was some fun basketball to watch. Speaking of fun... the Kobe/Ray feud is always good for some laughs (Gives Ray daps after he sets the three point record, then says he's going to bust that !$! at the All-Star game).

Oh, and the Reggie Miller / Ray Allen debate should be over at this point. I'll entertain the argument if someone wants to bring it, but it's pretty much sewn up at this point.

25k points, 3k threes, 45-40-90. Great career.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense.  Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West.  KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.

I hate this argument. None of that is KG's fault. You can't blame him for not being able to "carry" those Wolves teams anywhere. Come on please don't use that sorry excuse for an argument.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense.  Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West.  KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.

I hate this argument. None of that is KG's fault. You can't blame him for not being able to "carry" those Wolves teams anywhere. Come on please don't use that sorry excuse for an argument.

 

[youngtriz]

i think you can post up wade.. he doesnt have anything else to prove besides more rings...

 

[youngtriz]

i think you can post up wade.. he doesnt have anything else to prove besides more rings...

 

[statis22]

I just seen a Dirk/Rodman comparison plus Karl Malone and clutch in the same sentence.

I really want to participate in this thread, but im gonna need to not see posts like that.