ART DISCUSSION: What is art? Who/what inspires you?

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The thread on the Andreas Gursky photograph made me realize that a lot of people don't really understand what art is or what really constitutes as art. That's not a bad thing or anything and it's not a criticism. It's just the state of things. Going to a museum is less fun to some than going to the movies. Taking an Art History class more boring than taking creative writing. It's understandable. That's why I wanted to create a thread where we could discuss art in general, specific artists, art movements, and whatever else that might come up. 
Before anything else, one has to ask themselves, "What is art?" It seems like a simple question since we all have preconceived ideas as to what art is. We all have images in our head of things we've been told is art. van Gogh's 'Starry Night', da Vinci's 'Mona Lisa', Andy Warhol's 'Marilyn'. But what really constitutes art? What separates art from craft?

What makes art art is the concept, the intention, behind the work. There is no such thing as accidents in art. There might be a time where an artist allows for randomness to happen in their piece but that planning for randomness is part of the intention. Art is not just beautifully painted, sculpted, sewn, or photographed. If there is no concept behind the work, it is nothing more than a craft. There are thousands of technically proficient people in China that make a living counterfeiting artworks. Is what they are doing considered art? I think not. What they are doing is nothing more than a craft. No different than sewing buttons onto a pair of jeans. It's all about the intention and the concept, without which there is nothing.

Damien Hirst employs hundreds of apprentices who physically create his spin paintings that sell for tens of thousands of dollars. Are the people that actually created these the artists or is Hirst the artist? The apprentices are exercising a craft, painting, but there would be no spin paintings if Hirst had not come up with the idea in the first place.

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Ai Weiwei, controversial figure and probably the most famous artist in China, created the iconic and powerful 'Sunflower Seeds' exhibition at the Tate Modern in London. He didn't have a hand in actually creating the individual porcelain seeds but he conceptualized the idea and employed a factory of a thousand to create them. Without the idea, there is no 'Sunflower Seeds.'

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Art can also be any number of mediums. Art does not have to be created using a brush or be on canvas or anything like that. Those are classic tools but artists through the ages have used any number of mediums, depending on experimentation, need, or lack of resources, to create art. In contemporary art, artists have been known to use urine, blood, feces, glass, dust, hair, etc. But, again, at the end of the day, what makes the artwork art is the intention behind it, the medium is only there to help get that idea across. Without the intention, that work is nothing but paint or clay or whatever.

Discuss.
 
appreciate this post bro. i knew someone has to be into the Arts in NT. will be posting later after i get back from the airport.
 
Props for making this thread op.
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I agree with everything you've said in this thread and the other thread.

I forgot which artist said this but here's some food for thought.

Good or Bad isn't where art comes from.

The 10 Commandments of Taste

  1. Thou shalt have pleasure
  2. Thou shalt ask questions: Questions help deepen logic. Ex. Does the work present a conscious?
  3. Thou shalt honor process: Spend more time looking at the art
  4. Be not fixed nor fickle: Taste always evolve
  5. Thou shall not seek only the radical: Know high art and low art
  6. Thou shalt not hate: It kills the discussion/What we don't like develops our taste.
  7. Understanding does not govern art: Art isn't about making sense or nonsense.
  8. Obsession is everything: Obsession is the blood of art
  9. Thou shalt make thyself dumb
  10. Thou shalt cast out arrogance: Arrogance is less than hate.
 
no one knows what it means but it's provacative.

in for the discussion. def appreciated. just finished watching that bill cunningham documentary, that's inspiring/influencing me at this particular moment.
 
Current favorites: John McCracken, Dave Cole, and Dan Flavin.

I always enjoy a good Warhol, but his work is so misunderstood even by people who think they know his work.
Still great imagery, regardless.

Damien Hurst's "For the Love of God" blew my mind the first time I saw it. Cliché, I know, but such an intelligent gesture/thought in that piece.
 
Originally Posted by Elpablo21

Anyone got some recommendations on books on the matter?
Depends on what kind of art you're interested in learning about. Every household should posses at least one comprehensive textbook on art history (old college textbooks are good).
Taschen is one of my favorite publishers as far as books on art and architecture. Can't go wrong. They're not necessarily cheap, but they are thorough books.

You have to be careful buying books about art— sometimes it's just a bunch of pretty pictures with very little content.
 
Good points iYen. Often people see a work of art and think "Do I like this?" That's too basic and too unhelpful for understanding a work of art. Better questions would be "Does this piece create tension?", "How do the colors interact with one another?", "What could the colors mean?", "What is the overall mood of the piece?", "How does the texture of the work affect the work?", "Why is this medium used?" and etc.

Just liking or not liking something is not an honest inquiry into what the artwork is about. This can be attributed to our society and the instant gratification we seek in our everyday lives. Instead of taking time to truly understand an issue or topic, people tune in to the 24/7 news cycle and get pelted with sound bites, never truly understanding what's going on. There is a lack of curiosity when someone is willing to accept something, artwork being just one example, at it's surface and not willing to dig a little deeper for the meaning and intention.
 
Originally Posted by adob0

no one knows what it means but it's provacative.

in for the discussion. def appreciated. just finished watching that bill cunningham documentary, that's inspiring/influencing me at this particular moment.
If you're into fashion photography, definitely give Irving Penn and Richard Avedon (my favorite photographer) a look. I'll go more in depth with Avedon in a future post. I just wrote a paper comparing and contrasting his work with that of Arnold Newman.
 
Originally Posted by Elpablo21

Anyone got some recommendations on books on the matter?
What kind of art might you be interested in? If you're talking about art in general, there are several art history books that you might start at. I studied Gardner's Art Through the Ages for my general art history courses. I thought they were incredibly dry and the ancient stuff was really not that interesting to me. There are books on Contemporary American Art that might be more interesting/relevant to you. I'm currently taking a History of Photography course with Arthur Ollman, previous head of the San Diego Museum of Photographic Arts, and the book we're using in that class is called A World History of Photography. The writing is dry (what textbook isn't?) but it's not THAT much text in comparison to all the great pictures it contains. 
Like someone else suggested, there are art book publishers, like Taschen, that put out books on specific artists. They usually contain many, many pictures and also contain essays written about the artist that are much more interesting and insightful than any textbook. I've read about five different books on Richard Avedon's work and the essays are excellent.
 
You bring up some good points concerning artists and their apprentices/hired help. I actually had a conversation with my printmaking teacher, MFA candidate at my school, on the very same topic. I'll offer my thoughts on that particular matter in due time.
First off, I'd like to offer an opinion on the question of, "what is art"? Simply stated, there is no definitive answer. It's not objective, and as such, the question and it's "answer" are open to interpretation. Frankly, I think this is why Art as a subject is so interesting and wholly fulfilling (for me at least). Art isn't exclusionary. It invites all. It's not a task to be done or a problem to be solved. It's a journey; it's a life long affair; and perhaps, at the end of that journey, if you're lucky, you'll might have an answer to the question that necessitated the journey to begin with, but that's if you're lucky. There exist certain objective formal qualities within all good works of art, but these qualities alone are not an answer to the question. It's deeper than that.  

Moving on to the matter of artists and apprentices...

I think a concept is important to a work of art, but it's not the end all be all. Personally, I don't think too highly of artists who simply come up with an idea and have apprentices do all the work ( I say this with reference to artists of today, as opposed to those of antiquity). An idea is wonderful, but at the end of the day, it's just that--an idea; an intangible, somewhat nebulous thing yearning for form in our world. You can have all the best ideas in the world, but if you don't give them shape, form, and/or color, they are somewhat worthless. The mind working in tandem with the hand, or an extension of the hand--that's how you create art. The hand is symbolic of the physicality of art and a vital step in the art making process.

Thus, all these apprentices making art, are in some way, artists in their own collective right. Damien Hirst, Ai Weiwei, Warhol, etc may be the brains behind a work of art, but they needed those "other" hands to bring their ideas to fruition. 

As I said earlier, I have qualms with artists like those mentioned above because they reduce art to a system of mechanization (which is in itself, an interesting topic in a post-industrialized society). Ultimately, what these "artists" have shown is that if you have a decent idea at the very least, and a lot of money to spare, then you can can call yourself an artist. In other words, we've reached a point where individuals are buying the title known as "artist"; a title that has historically been reserved for individuals who have spent their entire lives actually creating, with their own hands, cherished works of art. And that my friend, I have an issue with. Hiring/paying fishermen to capture for you a Tiger white shark off the coast of Australia, so you can then hire someone else to suspend said shark in a vitrine of formaldehyde does not constitute Art in my eyes. 

An idea starts the process, but a hand finishes it. It's a dual dynamic system. Neither one is more important than the other.

Great thread btw; I'll try to contribute as much as I can. Actually heading to my on campus studio to go work on some paintings now, so I might be m.i.a for the rest of the night...
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architect major here, I kinda like the fact that not everyone "gets" art

Cooper Union - MORPHOSIS

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Dali, Caravaggio, Norm Rockwell, Ernie Barnes, Frank Lloyd Wright, Frank Gehry. A few of my favorite artisans. Art is amazing. Being able to put your thoughts on the surface through any media exudes infinite euphoria. Everything around us can be manipulated through art, and the fact that is seems unreal or not palpable at times is what makes it so great!
 
Originally Posted by LUKEwarm Skywalker

You bring up some good points concerning artists and their apprentices/hired help. I actually had a conversation with my printmaking teacher, MFA candidate at my school, on the very same topic. I'll offer my thoughts on that particular matter in due time.
First off, I'd like to offer an opinion on the question of, "what is art"? Simply stated, there is no definitive answer. It's not objective, and as such, the question and it's "answer" are open to interpretation. Frankly, I think this is why Art as a subject is so interesting and wholly fulfilling (for me at least). Art isn't exclusionary. It invites all. It's not a task to be done or a problem to be solved. It's a journey; it's a life long affair; and perhaps, at the end of that journey, if you're lucky, you'll might have an answer to the question that necessitated the journey to begin with, but that's if you're lucky. There exist certain objective formal qualities within all good works of art, but these qualities alone are not an answer to the question. It's deeper than that.  

Moving on to the matter of artists and apprentices...

I think a concept is important to a work of art, but it's not the end all be all. Personally, I don't think too highly of artists who simply come up with an idea and have apprentices do all the work ( I say this with reference to artists of today, as opposed to those of antiquity). An idea is wonderful, but at the end of the day, it's just that--an idea; an intangible, somewhat nebulous thing yearning for form in our world. You can have all the best ideas in the world, but if you don't give them shape, form, and/or color, they are somewhat worthless. The mind working in tandem with the hand, or an extension of the hand--that's how you create art. The hand is symbolic of the physicality of art and a vital step in the art making process.

Thus, all these apprentices making art, are in some way, artists in their own collective right. Damien Hirst, Ai Weiwei, Warhol, etc may be the brains behind a work of art, but they needed those "other" hands to bring their ideas to fruition. 

As I said earlier, I have qualms with artists like those mentioned above because they reduce art to a system of mechanization (which is in itself, an interesting topic in a post-industrialized society). Ultimately, what these "artists" have shown is that if you have a decent idea at the very least, and a lot of money to spare, then you can can call yourself an artist. In other words, we've reached a point where individuals are buying the title known as "artist"; a title that has historically been reserved for individuals who have spent their entire lives actually creating, with their own hands, cherished works of art. And that my friend, I have an issue with. Hiring/paying fishermen to capture for you a Tiger white shark off the coast of Australia, so you can then hire someone else to suspend said shark in a vitrine of formaldehyde does not constitute Art in my eyes. 

An idea starts the process, but a hand finishes it. It's a dual dynamic system. Neither one is more important than the other.

Great thread btw; I'll try to contribute as much as I can. Actually heading to my on campus studio to go work on some paintings now, so I might be m.i.a for the rest of the night...
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Hell yeah, I'm actually IN the painting studio writing all of this.
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 Necessary breaks from these long nights.
Great point on what constitutes art. A lot of artists, myself included, have an unquenchable desire to create. There is no final "objective" that I'm trying to reach here (not yet anyway) rather it's a process in putting my thoughts into a form. My current series of paintings are of isolation and loneliness between people. I don't necessarily get any joy or happiness out of creating these paintings but they are immensely satisfying. I don't necessarily care that people like them or not. That's not the point. I make these paintings to express an idea, a feeling, and that is all I need.

As far as the matter of artists and apprentices, I tend to agree with your view but I still think that concept trumps the physical creation. My beef with apprentices handling the bulk of the creation is that inevitably there is going to be something lost in translation as far as the original concept. There is no way that there isn't something that wasn't originally conceived by the artist when they're creating at that scale. At the same time, I understand that it's a matter of give and take. By giving up certain controls, the artist is able to create work that he might not necessarily be able to create himself. For instance, there is no way Ai Weiwei could create the millions and millions of individual sunflower seeds himself. But because he is able to employ all those people to help create them, the work was possible. I doubt Damien Hirst is capable of catching a shark himself. So yes, there is something to be said that the hands that create do enable the idea but I still believe that without the idea the art is impossible.

An over reliance on apprentices can definitely seem cheap but at the same time, it's not like this didn't happen throughout the ages. Some of the worlds great architectural marvels were created by the hands of thousands. The pyramids. The Tour Eiffel. Porcelain has been made with apprentice help for thousands of years. Even some of the paintings of the Old Masters have been attributed to the work of apprentices. When it's a matter of scale, relinquishing complete physical output becomes not only helpful but necessary.

For the record, most of Hirst's work is very underwhelming to me 
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 I'm not a fan at all of those spin paintings. His recent butterfly stuff is really meh too. The colored dots on a white background is brilliant in that I can't believe no one thought to do that before he did
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 I do love his series of preserved animals and the medicine cabinet series though. His piece 'A Thousand Years' is absolute genius.
 
20080414213148_marina-towers.jpg


Chicago's Marina Towers by Bertrand Goldberg

Why should all buildings look like rectangles sticking out of the ground? I think Goldberg's organic buildings are beautiful.
 
Originally Posted by Boys Noize

Originally Posted by LUKEwarm Skywalker


1

I think a concept is important to a work of art, but it's not the end all be all. Personally, I don't think too highly of artists who simply come up with an idea and have apprentices do all the work ( I say this with reference to artists of today, as opposed to those of antiquity). An idea is wonderful, but at the end of the day, it's just that--an idea; an intangible, somewhat nebulous thing yearning for form in our world. You can have all the best ideas in the world, but if you don't give them shape, form, and/or color, they are somewhat worthless. The mind working in tandem with the hand, or an extension of the hand--that's how you create art. The hand is symbolic of the physicality of art and a vital step in the art making process.

Thus, all these apprentices making art, are in some way, artists in their own collective right. Damien Hirst, Ai Weiwei, Warhol, etc may be the brains behind a work of art, but they needed those "other" hands to bring their ideas to fruition. 

As I said earlier, I have qualms with artists like those mentioned above because they reduce art to a system of mechanization (which is in itself, an interesting topic in a post-industrialized society). Ultimately, what these "artists" have shown is that if you have a decent idea at the very least, and a lot of money to spare, then you can can call yourself an artist. In other words, we've reached a point where individuals are buying the title known as "artist"; a title that has historically been reserved for individuals who have spent their entire lives actually creating, with their own hands, cherished works of art. And that my friend, I have an issue with. Hiring/paying fishermen to capture for you a Tiger white shark off the coast of Australia, so you can then hire someone else to suspend said shark in a vitrine of formaldehyde does not constitute Art in my eyes. 

An idea starts the process, but a hand finishes it. It's a dual dynamic system. Neither one is more important than the other.

Great thread btw; I'll try to contribute as much as I can. Actually heading to my on campus studio to go work on some paintings now, so I might be m.i.a for the rest of the night...
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As far as the matter of artists and apprentices, I tend to agree with your view but I still think that concept trumps the physical creation. My beef with apprentices handling the bulk of the creation is that inevitably there is going to be something lost in translation as far as the original concept. There is no way that there isn't something that wasn't originally conceived by the artist when they're creating at that scale. At the same time, I understand that it's a matter of give and take. By giving up certain controls, the artist is able to create work that he might not necessarily be able to create himself. For instance, there is no way Ai Weiwei could create the millions and millions of individual sunflower seeds himself. But because he is able to employ all those people to help create them, the work was possible. I doubt Damien Hirst is capable of catching a shark himself. So yes, there is something to be said that the hands that create do enable the idea but I still believe that without the idea the art is impossible.

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For the record, most of Hirst's work is very underwhelming to me 
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 I'm not a fan at all of those spin paintings. His recent butterfly stuff is really meh too. The colored dots on a white background is brilliant in that I can't believe no one thought to do that before he did
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 I do love his series of preserved animals and the medicine cabinet series though. His piece 'A Thousand Years' is absolute genius.


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Some showing artists I know simply hire other hands to do that work because, frankly, they don't have the capacity to do it and don't trust themselves, so they hire someone BETTER than them to do the actual crafting of the work. As far as Warhol, his work was NOT his imagery, and the hands that made the work at The Factory were actually a part of the living piece. That's why his work is still, quite literally, alive today. His work is considered pop-art because he made it that way intentionally. Some argue that his work is a commentary on perfection and how every pass of the squeegee on a screen forms a new composition, thus literally proposing the "what is art" question. Additionally, the enormous number of pieces that were created in his studio actually BECOMES the art itself— not the canvasses, not the boards, not the Brillo boxes— the NUMBER that's created. I'm unsure how to explain it, but I went to a lecture several years ago given by a man named THOMAS CROW that analyzed and discussed Warhol's work down to the very last detail. He's pretty longwinded, but he knows Warhol's work better than anyone else.

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"My beef with apprentices handling the bulk of the creation is that inevitably there is going to be something lost in translation as far as the original concept."

Good thought, and generally an overlooked one. This "lost in translation" idea only occurs if the hands making the work are less skilled than the artist. In many cases, as I said before, the hired hands are there because the artist ISN'T as good at the actual craft itself. When it comes to painting and more literal forms and mediums, the hand that create the works matters, but for modern, post-modern, minimalist, and especially contemporary work, the hands that touched it become less important.

3

I agree about Hirst being underwhelming. "For the Love of God" is worthy of recognition simply because the piece makes such a profound statement, but it seems like 9 out of every 10 pieces he does is "Eh, I get it. Okay." and then that ONE OTHER ONE IS "@(#$&%$#*%WE&TER($#*%#$% 
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" Very hit and miss. Definitely worthy of recognition, but since the appearance of the piece (a replica) in Jay-Z's video I think he's getting a little too much recognition, and for all the wrong reasons.

Also, HOLY CRAP. WHERE DID ALL THESE PEOPLE COME FROM? Freakin' intelligent artists and thinkers coming out of the woodwork for this thread? Jesus H. Christ, where has this been?! Props, OP.

P.S.

Great thread btw; I'll try to contribute as much as I can. Actually heading to my on campus studio to go work on some paintings now, so I might be m.i.a for the rest of the night


I remember those nights, man. I just graduated in May. I would bring you coffee and Chex Mix if I could (an easy grease-free snack for working with nearly any medium!).  Those nights will pay off so long as you love the work you're making.
 
It wasn't until a year ago that I really felt "comfortable" as an artist. I'll be done with undergrad next May. It's been a long and strange ride getting to where I am
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Maybe for the artists, a little backstory on yourself and what/who inspires you? That could get the thread rolling further and push more discussion.

For myself, I'm majoring in painting/printmaking at San Diego State. I did art throughout high school and it was the one thing other than movies that I really had a passion for. When I got to college, for some reason, I decided it'd be a great idea to pursue a business degree. Those were the most miserable two years of my life. Disillusioned with the idea of school, I moved back to the Bay Area and worked at UCSF as an IT assistant, working on computers. I was making good money but it was incredibly lonely being back home when all my friends were away at school. I decided to move back to San Diego and pursue art. I was taking intro drawing and design classes as a junior and for the first time I was actually passionate about what I was doing and studying. After a quick and useless detour into graphic design last year, I decided to fully commit myself to painting and darkroom photography. I've never been busier and I literally have no life outside of school right now but I haven't been more fulfilled as a student. I know this is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

This isn't a thread on posting your own artwork (there's another thread on that...probably near page 70 or something
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) but I did want to show at least one of my works to show where I drew my influences from.

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This is a new painting I made that is part of my series on loneliness, isolation, and separation between people. I took a scene from the Wong Kar-Wai, one of my idols, film In The Mood For Love and recontextualized it to fit my theme. Even though the figures are close together in proximity, they're worlds apart on a different level.

One of my greatest influences is Edward Hopper. His paintings of Americana and scenes of loneliness in the urban landscape have affected my work like none other. I already mentioned the filmmaker Wong Kar-Wai whose ultra-stylized movies and unorthodox cinematography have shaped how I frame my subjects. I also love Mark Rothko's work as far as color theory goes. His stuff is incredibly powerful.
 
Art is the most important part of my life, from movies to photography to paintings to sculptures to fashion...some of my favorites right now
Sergio Leone

David Lynch

Mert Alas & Marcus Piggott

Steven Meisel

Patrick Demarchelier

Odd Nerdrum

Michelangelo Caravaggio

Pablo Picasso 

Alexander McQueen

Rick Owens

Riccardo Tisci

i could go on...
 
Good see other artists on NT. I'm really into art. There is nothing like looking at art in person. I moved to nyc to go to school and got really into looking at art in person. I fell in love with Willem De Kooning's painting Woman IV at the MOMA.

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I highly recommend seeing this painting in person. In fact, MOMA is having a huge De Kooning retrospective right now. It's a really dank show. I imagine it will travel around the country after NYC, so keep your ears open if you don't live near nyc.

I don't have any art up online, but here are some of my favorite artists besides De Kooning:

Richard Prince

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Dan Colen

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Penelope Umbrico

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Dash Snow

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Merlin Carpenter

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I also like a bunch of emerging artists. 

NikeAirsNCrispyTees - dropping proper knowledge on artistic out sourcing. Out sourcing happens in every industry and it is not a bad thing. Collaboration is great.
 
Thanks NikeAirs & Boys Noize on the suggestions. Yeah I was basically looking for some stuff to read on art in general and the history of it. I always wanted to get into it but didn't know where to start exactly
 
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