(Spoilers) ASOIAF Books Discussion (All Books Read Edition) (Spoilers)

Why go through the trouble to fill his novels with soooooooo many literary devices hinting at it? There are infinitely more R+L references than A+L

by this notion, why make us wait 5+ (possibly 6) books just to tell us what is supposedly "obvious"
WHY SWAY/???

which is another problem I have because we have no idea what truly happened from Tourney to TOJ (and even TOJ is iffy considering it was a fever dream.)
some people say R kidnapped L, some people say they ran off together. but we dont know...

In Jamie and Barristans chapters is where we get the most info about Rhaegar.
I tell everyone these are the 2 people who practically make up the the entire Past of the ASOIAF for us.

Barristan said himself in ADWD "ONLY THE KING CAN TELL HIS KINGSGUARD WHAT AND WHERE TO GO"

I'll give you Dayne... possibly defecting. but 3 of the KG? hardly.
Barristan sat and watched him do those things. they all did.
Jamie would have continued too if 1. Aerys wasn't planning on killing the entire Kings landing town folks in fire (WHICH only Jamie and the pyromancer knew about) 2. he didn't want him to kill his own father.

THOSE ARE FACTS!!! printed ink in the book

so honestly to think the honorable Dayne would turn on King Aerys and seem to be upset about it (as we saw on printed ink from neds dream , (if the milk of the poppy didn't alter it) Then why would he be there because of Rhaegar ?

Hell why did Rhaegar go so far away from the TOJ to even fight against Robert, ?

With as many "obvious" clues you think there are, there are just as many Variables that can completely contradict that.





Again im not going against the grain just for Hits and giggles. Like you all I've read the book (3x now) I have the history of Westeros (still trying to get through the Targ part) I've listened to theory after Theory after theory for the last 6-7 years. and for as easy as it was for people to do R+L i've seen people debunk that with true reading/research/with a little speculation



(A+L is also spec, so im not discrediting what I said ) but this is why i'm so tired of seeing new cats come up with this and colombusing the idea. and for the old cats still harping on this without doing much more investigation and practically excepting this without question.
 
a + l ? 
eek.gif
 

I never said "obvious" once in my post. I didn't catch R+L=J my first read through. Not until forums and my second read through, it jumped out more.

Jaime and Barristan, hell, basically EVERYONE holds Rhaegar in high regard. Ned talks about the honor of the guy who stole his sister for goodness sakes.

I don't know why you keep using the word "defecting." They were following orders from the crown prince, protecting his heir. They did nothing to dishonor Aerys.

toj_2_web1.png


"Or Aerys would yet sit the throne and our false brother would burn in seven hells." If they were defecting, why would they say such things or feel a way about Jaime?

Rhaegar met Robert at the Trident because he was the head of the Targaryen army and all the rebel forces had joined strength and were marching on Kings Landing. Aerys was old by then.

I think that's your biggest hold up is that you think Rhaegar betrayed Aerys. He didn't. Because when it came down to business, he rode out with the royal army out to face Baratheon, Stark and Arryn.
 
I also think you're missing the most important part of that whole passage:

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege. The lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners and all their knights bent the knee and pledged is fealty.

I was certain you would be among them."


Ned knew the Knights of the Kings Guard weren't with Aerys. He expected them to be at Storm's End with...?

Tdogg is partially hung up on why the KG weren't with Aerys but Maybe we should be considering who everyone expected them to be with instead of Aerys and why they were instead at the TOJ and not Storm's End.
 
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naw im not hung up on anything. and honestly to say that for me and not for those who believe in this theory so strongly is sort of backwards don't you think..............



Jaime and Barristan, hell, basically EVERYONE holds Rhaegar in high regard. Ned talks about the honor of the guy who stole his sister for goodness sakes.

When I mentioned Barriston and Jamie what I meant was they are the only 2 chapters that go back and tell us the Aerys / Rhaegar side of the story.

I don't know why you keep using the word "defecting." They were following orders from the crown prince, protecting his heir. They did nothing to dishonor Aerys.
WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT???
my "defecting" comment was to you saying he followed rhaegars words and thats why I said that.

And if you want to go off protecting his heir.. 1. Rhaegar had 2 other kids who we dont know if were dead already or not and not said that they were (ned probably wouldn't have told dayne anyway) So why not protect those true Heirs.
IF
it is Aerys' child (if there was even a child born in the tower of Joy , which I atleast do agree with that but still a possibility there wasn't) then it would have the nearest claim to the throne being the kings bastard.

"Or Aerys would yet sit the throne and our false brother would burn in seven hells." If they were defecting, why would they say such things or feel a way about Jaime?

so you're proving my point that they were still loyal to their KING?


Rhaegar met Robert at the Trident because he was the head of the Targaryen army and all the rebel forces had joined strength and were marching on Kings Landing. Aerys was old by then.
Yes I know, or mainly because the king was mad, on top of they were trying to sack HIS throne so why would he go out on to the field. that is a Prince's job.
If there is a war in Mexico.. and we needed to move out troops... they not sending Obama to Mexico too.
I dont understand what you're trying to say by this


AGAIN. There is nothing concrete about R+L and the problem is people are taking it as such That's what gets me...

Even YOU just said the crowned prince ordered them there.. yet that was no where in the book. but it help support your R+L theory

crowned princes have no power over what the KING has.. That's like saying Joffery could've ran around make orders over what Robert did.......
 
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Idk why would they need to be at Storm's End? The castle was being sieged. Ned and crew only broke the siege after the Trident, where 3 KG were present, including Selmy. Better use for your best and most elite warriors then sitting outside a castle. Plus no Targaryen forces were there, just Tyrells. Jaime was in KL with Aerys and the rest of Targ forces holding the city. So when you consider that they weren't with the King or out in the field at THE biggest battle of Robert's Rebellion (Stark, Baratheon and Arryn had all fully joined forces at this point, so Targaryen and Martell armies had to squad up to meet them), WHY would they be at the Tower of Joy, except to protect Rhaegar's heir?


Kings Landing had already been sacked by then. Aerys, Elia Martell, "Aegon" and Princess Rhaenys were already dead at that point. Rhaegar was the heir, but also dead, so his offspring would have claim before Viserys and Dany (who were already on the way across the Narrow Sea). The Crown Prince's son has claim before the King's other kids. We know that they know because they already know that Aerys is dead.


toj_3_web1.png



(I think we're getting ToJ this season in a flashback and I can't wait)

You are the one that asked why Rhaegar went to battle Robert. Whatever beef him and Aerys might have had, he's still commanding House Targaryen's army. Yes, they're loyal to their King. They're following orders given from their Prince, on authority from their King, to protect House Targaryen.


I agree that there's nothing concrete, but the hints are sprinkled allllll throughout the text. That's kinda the point. Some things might not be explicity said but we can use logic and info from the text to reach conclusions.






Also, random. There are hints that Jon Con is ayo. What are yall thoughts? When I did my reread of Feast & Dance, I was like :nerd:
 
your entire post is why I hate the theory in the first place.

WHY would they be at the Tower of Joy, except to protect Rhaegar's heir?
this is opinion/theory

Kings Landing had already been sacked by then. Aerys, Elia Martell, "Aegon" and Princess Rhaenys were already dead at that point Rhaegar was the heir, but also dead, so his offspring would have claim before Viserys and Dany (who were already on the way across the Narrow Sea). The Crown Prince's son has claim before the King's other kids. We know that they know because they already know that Aerys is dead.
WE DONT KNOW THATS JON OR EVEN A KID OR HIS KID - opinion/theory.
we also still dont now who died first. Rhaegar or Aerys. show me where that's said.

You are the one that asked why Rhaegar went to battle Robert. Whatever beef him and Aerys might have had, he's still commanding House Targaryen's army. Yes, they're loyal to their King.

ever heard of coup? what i think is it's possible thats why he went to meet robert, not for battle but for the coup to turn on Aerys... but that ofcourse is opinion theory.


everything people go off this theory with is based off other theory that's what gets me... none of the stuff from R+L= J is fact..
 
Rhagear was def dead before Aerys

Tywin only sacked KL after he knew Rhagear had been defeated
exactly so why is @fantastic4our saying well theyre there to protect the crowned prince son
By rhaegars orders... if rhaegar was dead prior and the king is.....well...KING. Why are they"following orders" from someone who is 1.NOT THE KING. 2. Already dead?????
(Things that make you go hmmmmm)
Are you guys finally seeing my point.
1.FACT the king orders the KINGSguard
2. FACT They were legit mad about jamie killing Aerys "or yet he'd still be on the throne"
3. OPINION/THEORY They were there because of rhaegar
4. OPINION/THEORY They were there protecting Rhaegars love child.


5. FACT. Lyanna was covered in a bloody dress.and blankets

6. THEORY/OPINION . That was because of a child. Or jon

7. Rhaegar gaveLyanna the love amd beauty title

8. THEORY /OPINION RHAEGAR AND LYANNA had this whirlwind love affair.


The books never had the Baelish/Sansa talk of Rhaegar didnt actually kidnap her. As sansa and most of the north see it.

Matter of fact we didnt really get any say about the nature of her being in that tower at all. So we really have no idea WHO took her there so THEORY OPINION is she was there to be protected...

But protected from who? No one was out to kill her from what we know.
Theres Millions of places they could have settled her. But they settled her (from THEORY) somewhere between kings landing and the reach (im not sure gotta look at something.)



Again im not against it to just be against it
 
So we know Rhaegar was dead first. We also know tha the KG's know this, presumably because they see Ned Stark now approaching them and the only logical conclusion is he was victorious in battle.

And we know Ned (and presumably everyone else) thought the Kings Guard would be at Storm's End, but they were/are not.

Ned informs them that Aerys is dead as well, and they make it clear that they already knew that. Also that they apparently had the opportunity to be by Aerys's side but instead are at the ToJ.

The only question left to ask is, if they're not by their King or at the Trident or at Storm's End, because they're at the Tower of Joy, who/what are they protecting/keeping captive.

It wouldn't make sense to use the King's Guard as jailers when the entire empire is falling, so the next logical (admittedly) leap is that they must be protecting a part (or the future?) of the empire.

We don't get any clues towards A+L aside from Rickard Stark losing his **** when Lyanna goes missing. But we get tons of clues hinting at R+L.

So while nothing is definitive and theory, the most plausible theory right now is that an heir to the throne was in the ToJ, and it's probably Rhaegar's heir.
 
*This is just a wild theory but could lead to a spoiler so here's a disclaimer*

LL


Possibly Tyrion taking some aspects from Quentyn Martell's story in the books ?

I highly doubt it since that particular part didn't end well for QM.
 
*This is just a wild theory but could lead to a spoiler so here's a disclaimer*



Possibly Tyrion taking some aspects from Quentyn Martell's story in the books ?

I highly doubt it since that particular part didn't end well for QM.
When I saw the trailer the first time, I was thinking the same thing, but I highly doubt it too, since like you said....didn't end well for Q, but they're gonna have to be set free eventually, so maybe Tyrion sets them free and they just leave him alone, or like @Tdogg2k  said, the servants catch the flame. I don't think he will control the dragon though. Danny can barely do that.
 
I'm still mad Arianne got cut from the show. Plus we only get one hot Sand Snake, another decent one, and one I don't care about.
 
That's the place I wanted to see most on the show and they cut out so many of the characters and plotlines. The show people don't have love for Dorne.
 
nice read . Long so i'll put it in spoiler tag for those using mobile

On Royal Credibility and Rights of Vassals.
(Excerpt from an essay by somethinglikealawyer of warsandpoliticsoficeandfire )

When Rhaegar Targaryen named Lyanna Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty, there were few happy with that state of affairs. While the nobles were content to gossip and seethe on this slanderous incident, it would quickly spiral out of control when Lyanna Stark was seemingly abducted by Rhaegar Targaryen near Harrenhal. This would be the final straw for wolf-blooded Brandon, who brashly went forth to King’s Landing, demanding that Rhaegar “come out and die” for his kidnapping of Lyanna.

Neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna were present in the capital, but Aerys II was, and he had Brandon arrested for plotting the murder of the crown prince. He issued a demand for Rickard Stark to go to the capital and answer for his son’s crimes, to which Rickard agreed, and the Lord Paramount made the journey to King’s Landing to ransom his son. What happened next was infamous and spelled the end of the Targaryen dynasty. Rickard himself was charged with treason, and when Rickard demanded trial by combat, he was burned to death in a grotesque mockery of the law of Westeros, by Aerys declaring fire the champion of House Targaryen, all while his son Brandon watched, strangling himself to death in a vain attempt to free his father.

Many Targaryen apologists say that Aerys was within his rights to execute Brandon for seeking the death of the crown prince, but these people ignore critical pieces of Aerys’s conduct, that he had stated that Rickard was to come to King’s Landing to account for his son. This is not a mere courtesy, highborn prisoners charged with crimes had the right to trial, and Aerys had made it plain that Rickard was to come to King’s Landing to settle affairs, meaning that Brandon would have had his due when Rickard arrived. Rickard, acting in accordance with the law, was suddenly seized, bound, and murdered. So, whether Aerys could have had Brandon killed on royal authority is irrelevant. Once he had issued his decision, he couldn’t retract it without risking royal credibility and authority in the face of highborn rights.

By issuing a command and then using it to murder his obedient lord, Aerys II undermined all semblance of royal credibility, and in a feudal system of government, where the specifics of service due by both lords and vassals, are outlined in contracts, credibility at the top is absolutely vital. As Steven Attewell points out in his column: “if one law-abiding Lord Paramount can be executed on a whim, any of them can.” However, it goes slightly further than even the great extent that Mr. Attewell offers, for not only was Rickard murdered, but he was murdered in a fashion as to spit in the face of lordly rights with a showy “trial by combat.” This exercise mocked both the lordly rights that highborn enjoyed as a privilege due to their status, but the very gods who were supposed to sit in judgment over trials by combat and render their verdict through the swordarm of the truly just party. Aerys demonstrated that he believed highborn noble rights to be a joke, that he was the absolute authority whose dictates superseded all laws of gods and men. In doing so, he caused half of his kingdom to rise in revolt and spelled the doom of his authority.

Beacause “There’s a lot more to Robert’s Rebellion. Aerys’s and Rhaegar’s were deeply unsettling to feudalism as a whole. In feudalism, lords sacrifice autonomy and other rights to the king for protection. Rickard Stark was summoned to court, and there was seized, charged with treason, denied his due process, and executed in mockery of his lordly rights.

Eddard and Robert, the de jure Lords Paramount (though they’ve yet to swear their feudal oaths) are threatened with death despite not being involved in any crime, confirming the hypothesis that all Lords Paramounts’ lives are at the mercy of the royal whim.

In feudalism, the one big crime for a king is tyranny. Violating his own feudal oaths gives lords the right (some would even say the duty) to depose him, lest he ruin the entire government for everyone. Eddard and Robert were under the very real threat of death, Jon Arryn was commanded to forfeit his wards (a violation of the sacred guest right mandating that a host protect any guest from harm whilst under his care) to a tyrannical order, and refusal was thus, a right and proper thing. Even Hoster Tully, bound by one oath to aid the Starks and another oath to the king, found the choice made for him when Aerys violated his feudal overlordship and thus, violated it for all of his vassals (Hoster might also had reason to believe that if Brandon Stark were executed, his betrothed Catelyn might be the next suspected ‘traitor,’ and if he did not make a stand now, he could not make a stand later).

Nor could the wronged lords install Rhaegar in his place, as Rhaegar had already violated the laws by abducting a Lord Paramount’s daughter (taking a noble mistress is one thing, abducting one is quite another!) Rhaegar’s actions demonstrated that he believed himself unbound by the laws of Westeros and that he was answerable to no lord for his actions. When Rhaegar emerged from Dorne, he took up his father’s side, thus publicly stating that the Crown was not in the wrong for executing Rickard, and further proving that he believed that the Targaryens were answerable to none. Is it any coincidence that this is when Robert was acclaimed the true king of Westeros by his noble coalition? Aerys and Rhaegar sought to return the government to an absolute monarchy, where the royal whim is supreme. “

Image: The Death of Brandon and Rickard Stark by reaprycon
 
Yup. Aerys deserved his swording.

here's the thing tho. with that article it's starting to sound like Rhaegar didn't take lyanna out of love though.

we still dont have a time frame which hurts my Aerys is the father, but it could also hurt the fact Rhaegar took her out of love or because she wanted. though she was wild she was still loyal to her FAM. and knowing they took Brandon Lyanna and him had a great relationship, she wouldn't have let Rhaegar let that happen if they were supposedly in love

the plot thickens...
 
They didn't "take" Brandon. He stormed down there mad.

And if Rhaegar and Lyanna were shacked up, it's possible (probable?) they wouldn't have known about what's going on until Aerys had overstepped.

Plus the war wasn't over Lyanna's kidnapping as much as it was Aerys's actions. Dudes didn't call their banners over Lyanna. They did when Aerys killed the two eldest Stark men and ordered the executions of several others.
 
I was rewatching season 2 over the weekend. I realized that they showed (what I think is the horn of winter). in the cloak with dragon glass. I wonder why the show hasn't done anything with it. Not actually using it, but at least mention it or tell a story about it.
 
prob cuz it was an easter egg for readers and they never planned to use it, at least not until GRRM did in the book.
 
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I was rewatching season 2 over the weekend. I realized that they showed (what I think is the horn of winter). in the cloak with dragon glass. I wonder why the show hasn't done anything with it. Not actually using it, but at least mention it or tell a story about it.



D&D are known for introducing things/characters and completely ignoring them afterwards.

Most Notably: Gendry


Off Topic:

Here's a couple GoT podcasts that are great and updated frequently:

History of Westeros
Game of Owns -
Radio Westeros ASoIaF - My favorite
Cast of Thrones
Game of Thrones The Podcast
 
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