2012 NBA MVP Thread

[ag 47]

I dunno until LeBron got there Wade was basically the point guard, Kobe is a good passer for a 2 gaurd but Wade can play point gaurd full time and run an offense.



Um, Kobe has been the main facilitator on Laker teams for the past decade, at least. Up until trading for Sessions, it was Kobe's responsibility to initiate the offensive sets.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by AG 47

I dunno until LeBron got there Wade was basically the point guard, Kobe is a good passer for a 2 gaurd but Wade can play point gaurd full time and run an offense.

Um, Kobe has been the main facilitator on Laker teams for the past decade, at least. Up until trading for Sessions, it was Kobe's responsibility to initiate the offensive sets.
this season he has been counted on more so to initiate the offense, with Derrick Fishers decomposing body shuffling around but it hasn't been this way his whole career. In the triangle you can't really say that one guard is the facilitator because pretty much everyone is, thats the nature of the offense.

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Kobe is not a better passer than Wade

He actually can be when he wants to that's the worse part, he has good passin/vision just seldom chooses to use it.


CP, stop crying man, everyone here knows Kobe is a top 10 player of all-time, doesn't mean he's infallible to criticism.

 

[JD617]

You types been workin for 10 years to come up with every player, every moment you could to put somebody above Kobe and his career.

No, not his career. How many times did I say I'm talking about currently? I thought I made that pretty clear.

Besides saying Bynum is having a better season so far, I mentioned 7 guys who I think are better at this point: Bron, Wade, D12, CP3, Love, Durant, and a healthy Rose. Judging by some of the responses you'd think I said Scalabrine > Kobe.

I swear, Kobe could be 65 years old getting pushed around the court in a wheelchair and people would still insist he's top 3 because of his "presence" or whatever.

 

[pmatic]

FIVE RINGZ!!1

 

[CP1708]

And I told you flat out, Wade has never been once in his entire life better than Kobe.  Not this year, last year, the year before, before that, or that or that or that etc etc etc. 

Does he get to the rim better at this point?  Yes.  Does he defend better for 48 minutes?  Yes. 

That's it.  That's what he does better.  He don't rebound any better, or pass better or dribble or whatever other @*%@%*@$ you wanna claim.  I know, somebody found a way to divide this by that and multiply by a factor of x and then semi circle the circumference of the diameter of an apple dropping at the speed of light blah blah blah. 

33 year old Kobe with his wrist in a soft cast still shot better than Wade the first couple months.  Then Brown drove him into the ground leading the NBA in minutes and he's lost his legs for a bit.  That don't make Wade a better shooter, from 10 feet, 15 feet, 20 feet, 25 feet.  He had a better month of March, sure, no question.  Kobe passes with the best of them, he just never does it. 

  But just the other night he put a left handed bounce pass on a dead sprint right on his teammates fingers past a defender off the touch.  He's also found Bynum/Gasol hundreds of times, same passes your wonderful Wade makes.  So stop. 

But this isn't the first time I have seen you say this @*%@%*@$ JD, hence me bringing it up.  Don't act like you just sayin it this week or whatever, you've said it for a while.  2010 still stings, I get it, it's alright. 

My point still remains, you dudes use every player you can find to put in front of him, Shaq at least made sense, then it was Pau, now it's Bynum, I can not wait for the Sessions > Kobe posts to start poppin up.  We've had Melo > Kobe, TMac, Vince, literally dozens of em.  Arenas. 

I ain't even cryin AMP, I'm laughin.  Seriously.  It's funny stuff. 

PS, none of this $%+* matters, the MVP race could be decided tonight.  Get with it. 

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Wade is better than Kobe at this point though...Kobe plays the minutes he does cause he wants to play the minutes he does.  If he told Mike Brown to scale back his minutes it happens, don't use that excuse.  It's not an insult to Kobe, Wade is 3 years younger and still in his prime.  In no way is he a better all-time player but as of today? Sure? What really good is Kobe at anymore  except making difficult shots?  That is what Kobe does now, makes difficult shots.  It's why he is shooting 42% cause difficult shots are hard to make.
Simmons hit it on the head when he called Kobe a taller IVO at this point, which I know on this site is a diss cause everyone loves to trash Ivo but its not.  Kobe was amazing cause he was so efficient in his ballhogging earlier in his career but he's lost much of that efficiency.

Besides playoffs are what matter to your right CP? Last time I saw Kobe in the playoffs he got swept by the Mavs...Last time Wade was there he did everything in his power to beat the Mavs.  He played a superior series than Kobe did. 

You always want it to be one way, when its the other way.

 

[proshares]

There's not a single sport where a one game sample out of 82 games should ever decide the MVP

if it does, God bless you.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Proshares

There's not a single sport where a one game sample out of 82 games should ever decide the MVP

if it does, God bless you.

Pro I don't mean its a done deal for sure, I'm speaking in general, the masses will see this game and public opinion will be swayed. Ain't that how Rose won last year?

 

[JD617]

Winner of the MVP race so far is ...

It's LeBron vs. Durant for the MVP award! Live on ESPN2!

OK, not quite. But with Durant bringing at least a bit of mystery to what had seemed an open-and-shut MVP case for LeBron James, tonight's Heat-Thunder matchup certainly will provide some intrigue for voters. And should Durant get the better of James for a second time in 10 days, the momentum of the LeBron Alternative may prove irreversible.

Of course, it's an interesting game on several levels that have nothing to do with the MVP award. Remember that home-court advantage in a potential Heat-Thunder Finals matchup may well be decided tonight; Miami trails Oklahoma City by a game in the loss column, and with a win the Thunder will own the tiebreaker. Also, don't look now, but the Thunder may need every win they can get just to hold off the surging Spurs for the West's top seed -- San Antonio trails by only one game in the loss column and owns the tiebreaker.

Nonetheless, it's the MVP debate that will be the most watched element of tonight's game, as everybody tries to talk themselves into reasons to avoid voting for James. And in my hopeless effort to steer everyone toward a rational discussion of what has become a hopelessly irrational award, it's time for me to issue a few reminders about the league's MVP award:
[h3]National TV games don't count for more.[/h3]
I double-checked with the league office and everything: Tonight's game against Oklahoma City counts no more and no less for Miami than last Friday's game against Toronto or this coming Sunday's game against Detroit. Similarly, regardless of the outcome of tonight's game, the Thunder will receive only one win for a victory and one loss for a defeat.

The fact that you showed up to watch is commendable, but it doesn't make the stakes higher in and of itself, and any talk of players "performing on a big stage" merely because you received the broadcast is silliness. (Cranky side note: Along a similar vein, games in New York are not magically imbued with extra importance and count no more than contests in Milwaukee.)

Everybody will be watching, and it would indeed be impressive if Durant outplays James again. It would not, however, offset the fact that LeBron has been better for the teams' other 50 games, and that those games count for 25 times as much as the two recent, high-profile meetings between their teams.
[h3]The award is for the 2011-12 regular season.[/h3]
In other words, this award is not for any event that occurred outside the 2011-12 regular season, including the 2011 Finals, for instance, or the 2012 All-Star Game, or The Decision, or any other event one wants to recount in the quest to avoid voting for James.

The other way this point is relevant, however, is the most likely out voters may give themselves for the LeBron Alternative is the "He's a choker!" angle. But again, Games 4-6 of the 2011 Finals were not part of this season, and regardless of what you think about his last-second pass in the All-Star Game, that doesn't belong in an MVP debate either.

And in the 2011-12 regular season, in the final minutes of close games, we can look at NBA.com's stats database and see there's not a heck of a lot of difference between Durant and James. Slice the data however you want; what you'll come up with is that Durant takes more shots but is far less likely to help anyone else out (he doesn't have a single assist in the final two minutes of one-possession games, for instance). When they do shoot, both convert at similar rates: Inside two minutes and three points, it's a 57.6 TS% for James and 55.8 for Durant; inside five minutes and five points it's 54.8 for Durant and 51.9 for James.

Durant supporters will desperately want to use the clutch narrative, because it's the only safe place to hang their hats right now, but there just isn't a compelling case to be made unless you start bringing up events that had nothing to do with the 2011-12 regular season.
[h3]Lack of a compelling backstory is your hang-up, not the players.[/h3]
I didn't like The Decision. Lots of people didn't like The Decision. I get that.

Also, Miami is the Goliath of basketball, and it's a lot more fun rooting for David; I get that too. Like I wrote a year ago when the Derrick Rose MVP train careened out of control, a lot of people want to vote for the best story as much or more than they want to vote for the best player. Underdog stories (Rose, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson) go over well with MVP voters, even in the face of glaring logical holes in the narrative.

Durant, unquestionably, makes for a better story than James: Like Rose, he's a humble, likable, hard-working young man who deflects praise to teammates and publicly backs his point guard at every turn even when the guy is starving him of the ball. And in marked contrast to James, Durant signed a five-year extension with his small-market franchise a year ago.

All of this makes for great copy. Most of it has little or nothing to do with determining this season's most valuable player.
[h3]Defense matters.[/h3]
About 98 percent of the Durant-James debate will focus on shooting, scoring, who takes what kind of shots and whether they're going in.

Swept under the rug will be the fact that we're comparing a decent defender to an all-world defender. Somehow, everybody wants to ignore this. The Heat are fourth in Defensive Efficiency and the Thunder are 10th, even though Oklahoma City's bigs are much better defensively than Miami's.

How do you suppose that's happening? Here's a clue: Opposing small forwards have a 10.4 PER against James, according to 82games.com (against Durant it's 12.6). The Thunder give up more points per possession with Durant on the court than off it; the Heat, on the other hand, give up nearly three points per 100 possessions fewer with James. Both numbers are entirely consistent with each player's history, too; James, because of his size, strength and quickness, is simply a far more impactful defensive player.

The results speak for themselves. James' teams have been in the league's top five in Defensive Efficiency three of the past four seasons, across two franchises, and was seventh in the other. Durant's club has never finished higher than eighth.
[h3]James is still having a historic season.[/h3]
LeBron's 30.54 PER is no longer threatening Michael Jordan's all-time mark of 31.89, and because he put up even better marks in 2008-09 and 2009-10 we're shrugging our shoulders and acting unimpressed. On the other hand, it's still the third-best PER mark ever by any player not named LeBron James or Michael Jordan; and the two guys beating him out now (David Robinson in 1993-94 and Shaquille O'Neal in 1999-2000) are ahead by just a whisker.

Look, I understand that James had a rough two weeks to end March, and if he continues along that path for the final 14 games we may have a more legitimate debate on our hands. I still suspect he suffered a concussion in that scary collision with Grant Hill two weeks ago, and the Heat's less-than-glorious history in dealing with this particular injury (see: Mike Miller, 2011; Jermaine O'Neal, 2009 playoffs) offers further support for this hypothesis.

But at the moment there isn't much of a debate. We have a Defensive Player of the Year candidate averaging 26-8-6 on 53.7 percent shooting; if we're even pretending to have a rational discussion about this, it's game over. It's no knock on Durant, who is having a great season himself, but let's call this what it is: People using a two-week slump by LeBron James to avoid giving him the MVP because they don't like him.

 

[|A-Man|]

Originally Posted by Seymore CAKE

Originally Posted by Al3xis

For the 'Skip Bayless LeBron is disqualified after he joined Wade' crowd

31, 7.5 & 7.3 on 53% shooting and an 8-1 record without Batman in 9 games.

I'd love to see the firestorm that would kick up if roles were reversed.

Chill ... The ({}) IS NOT Bats.

Yeah, he's more Green Lantern.

 

[grandtheftbike]

Originally Posted by CP1708


I know, somebody found a way to divide this by that and multiply by a factor of x and then semi circle the circumference of the diameter of an apple dropping at the speed of light blah blah blah.

had me reading it 2-3 times

 

[seymore cake]

Originally Posted by JD617

Winner of the MVP race so far is ...

Lack of a compelling backstory is your hang-up, not the players.

I didn't like The Decision. Lots of people didn't like The Decision. I get that.

Also, Miami is the Goliath of basketball, and it's a lot more fun rooting for David; I get that too. Like I wrote a year ago when the Derrick Rose MVP train careened out of control, a lot of people want to vote for the best story as much or more than they want to vote for the best player. Underdog stories (Rose, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson) go over well with MVP voters, even in the face of glaring logical holes in the narrative.

Durant, unquestionably, makes for a better story than James: Like Rose, he's a humble, likable, hard-working young man who deflects praise to teammates and publicly backs his point guard at every turn even when the guy is starving him of the ball. And in marked contrast to James, Durant signed a five-year extension with his small-market franchise a year ago.

All of this makes for great copy. Most of it has little or nothing to do with determining this season's most valuable player.
[h3]Defense matters.[/h3]
About 98 percent of the Durant-James debate will focus on shooting, scoring, who takes what kind of shots and whether they're going in.

Swept under the rug will be the fact that we're comparing a decent defender to an all-world defender. Somehow, everybody wants to ignore this. The Heat are fourth in Defensive Efficiency and the Thunder are 10th, even though Oklahoma City's bigs are much better defensively than Miami's.

How do you suppose that's happening? Here's a clue: Opposing small forwards have a 10.4 PER against James, according to 82games.com (against Durant it's 12.6). The Thunder give up more points per possession with Durant on the court than off it; the Heat, on the other hand, give up nearly three points per 100 possessions fewer with James. Both numbers are entirely consistent with each player's history, too; James, because of his size, strength and quickness, is simply a far more impactful defensive player.

The results speak for themselves. James' teams have been in the league's top five in Defensive Efficiency three of the past four seasons, across two franchises, and was seventh in the other. Durant's club has never finished higher than eighth.

But at the moment there isn't much of a debate. We have a Defensive Player of the Year candidate averaging 26-8-6 on 53.7 percent shooting; if we're even pretending to have a rational discussion about this, it's game over. It's no knock on Durant, who is having a great season himself, but let's call this what it is: People using a two-week slump by LeBron James to avoid giving him the MVP because they don't like him.

What was said here... ALL FACTUAL.

 

[dior paint]

This award is really overblown anyway.

People only get moved to get into huge debates about it leading up to it. A month later...nobody cares who won the MVP anymore.

 

[DsLee]

I believe the polling system would be a good idea here. NT's NBA MVP.

 

[mister friendly]

Originally Posted by JD617

But at the moment there isn't much of a debate. We have a Defensive Player of the Year candidate averaging 26-8-6 on 53.7 percent shooting; if we're even pretending to have a rational discussion about this, it's game over. It's no knock on Durant, who is having a great season himself, but let's call this what it is: People using a two-week slump by LeBron James to avoid giving him the MVP because they don't like him.

The reason why we are having this discussion because it not always about stats.

Lebron is great but he seems to keep doing stuff where you're like

This is really the MVP?  You're gonna play hot potato with the ball in the last 2 minutes?... Really?.....Youre gonna just sit on the wing for stretches at a time?....Like really? If your shot isnt falling in the 1st half , youre gonna shut it down....For reals?  

Why does he keep shrinking from so many moments and I think people are tired of it.
  

 

[crazy dav0]

people also get too carried away by statisticians numbers instead and don't actually watching the games ...

can't argue w/ the defense part of it though ... lebron def. has the edge there and that's half the game isn't?

 

[proshares]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by Proshares

There's not a single sport where a one game sample out of 82 games should ever decide the MVP

if it does, God bless you.

Pro I don't mean its a done deal for sure, I'm speaking in general, the masses will see this game and public opinion will be swayed. Ain't that how Rose won last year?

Public opinion, I see what you mean.  Agree 100%.

 

[hankmoody]

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

people also get too carried away by statisticians numbers instead and don't actually watching the games ...

Let me guess... you've watched every NBA game this year?

 

[JD617]

Does he get to the rim better at this point?  Yes.  Does he defend better for 48 minutes?  Yes.
But he's not a better player?

So one guy gets to the rim literally twice as often (6.7 attempts in 33 minutes per) and therefore shoots 50%, the other guy gets to the rim half as often (3.6 attempts in 39 minutes per) and therefore shoots 43%. And on top of that the guy who shoots 50% is a better defender. But he's not a better player though.....

 

[srvballer]

Lebron showed tonight why both sides of the floor matter again. Lebron deserves the damn award. No reason to argue over it...

 

[airmaxpenny1]

9 turnovers? You still get a Artest/Bron/T.Allen type on Durant at the end of the game he still has the same problems that he did last year.

 

[al3xis]

Originally Posted by srvballer

Lebron showed tonight why both sides of the floor matter again. Lebron deserves the damn award. No reason to argue over it...

this needs to be stressed. He was awesome on defense.

 

[mez 0ne]

Durant was MVP when Thunder embarrassed Heat, but Miami wins a close game and now Bron is the MVP. Game by game basis now?

 

[airmaxpenny1]

No its not game by game. LeBron matters more to his team.

Heat are 9-1 without Wade....You think Durant would be 9-1 without Westbrook doubt it. Bron is having statistically one of the best season's ever. Dude had 4 steals and numerous defensive plays down the stretch. He can just effect the overall scope of the game in ways Durant never will be able too.