Serious Open Discussion on Nike Circa #NT 2007

nikedealer · Jun 5, 2012

I have talked to quite a few NT bredren lately about the state of NT and serious Topic Discussions over the last few years. Honestly a few of us know it's been lacking in quality and content but instead of me ever complaining because of the new age NT members really only being into the Hype or Reselling aspect of kicks.. Ive only chimed in to disspell rumors or try to provide insight.
By no means am I a Nike guru or knower of ALL things Nike. I do miss the topics that were engaging and didnt need pics to legitimize the information provided.

Topics such as:

The Direction of House of Hoops vs Concept and its Execution

Fakes: How it works, the technology improvements and why Nike hasnt done what it can to improve on stopping them

Leather vs Plastic , Light vs Heavy , Performance vs Casual

Just to name a few. This can be THAT forum without volume 2329823. Have a question regarding something where you dont think it will get lost by millions of pics of the same shoe, someone asking a release date a hundred times or if something runs true to size. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

But I even admit.. Even I miss discussions folks like Dark Chocolate aka Coach Hubie aka AKA would have about his disdain for Nike and love for Adi.. I hope there are enough members still around interested enough to keep a thread like this going.

Or maybe it will be me Vood, and andfattoo etc, keeping it alive lol.

First up: Will Nike EVER go back to the essence of Basketball Performance Shoes having Leather and not making an ultra light shoe the most important factor but making a well put together performance shoe that has stability, comfort, cushion and good looks its priority because it was once good enough?

daaznfella · Jun 5, 2012

^short answer, no. I'm pretty sure the synthetic material they're now using with fuse, flywire, and materials that are strong, but light, have influenced sneakers today. adidas isn't doing it, and now nike isn't doing it as much really either. you are starting to see less and less shoes today PERIOD with leather, and more on synthetics that provide the same function and are supposed to be even stronger and more stable then old leathers could.

nikedealer · Jun 5, 2012

Well.. I'd take synthetic leathers over Plastics as a total replacement at this point.

4wrestling · Jun 5, 2012

I've had the crazy idea that somewhere in the future we will just have a cushioned sole that attaches to the bottom of your foot. The upper of a shoe will completely disappear. Ankle support could be directly incorporated into the sock.

nikedealer · Jun 5, 2012

4.. I;ve made similar comments.

I know design wise the guys can make it look good.. but if Nike as a company just wants ultra lightness... give me pre structured flywire thread to tie around my foot, and adhesive rubber cut outs...

Perfect.

thapointguy · Jun 5, 2012

I'm liking the Hyperfuse construction in the Lebron 9, it doesn't give/crease as fast as leather/synthetic leather. If Nike switches back and forth between materials that'll be the best of both worlds.

mp23 · Jun 5, 2012

Yay a non-hypebeast thread!! I would say not since Nike is loading all shoes, across all categories, with the Hyperfuse/Flywire materials and having such an emphasis on being lightweight performance product. It seems counter-intuitive for them to be bringing all these materials to us consumers, saying its the most premium and great way to make a shoe because it combines lightweight performance with fit and durability, then go back to a full-grain leather upper and say hey buy this shoe now. It just wouldn't make any sense. I wore my Ultraflights the other day and felt how supple they were but how heavy they were in comparision to say my Kobes. Of course, when I got them, they felt lightweight to me, its just now we have such lighter shoes that point guard shoes back then feel like bricks compared to everything else.

So, in a long-winded way, I would say not, although you know they will continue to make Foams because of the sales even though they are bricks.

manposite · Jun 5, 2012

Amen, op!
...without going too deep... the trends on NT and even those seen in your local Footlocker are both(IMO) reflections the current socioeconomic landscape... and thats one of less and less substance...
...we live in an intellectually and emotionally stunted culture.. one so much so, it actually embraces its own ignorance...

...with each passing fiscal-quarter.. the sheep herd proliferates.. quality dwindles.. and we get deeper down the rabbit hole...

"the times they are a changin"

manslayer · Jun 5, 2012

Nike is a corporation looking to make money. To cut costs, they have cut out the expensive parts of the shoes (leather) and replaced it with a cheaper alternative (plastic, hyperfuse, flywire, etc.) and use these as "breaking technology" and upped the price to maximize their profit margin. So, as long as they are selling and Nike continues to make money, then don't expect the shoes to include leather anytime soon.

lmns2 · Jun 5, 2012

im OK with the direction in using hyperfuse/flywire in all of nike shoe line. If its possible to incorporate a full-inner bootie with hyperfuse then much better. The rubbing that i experienced with elite 9's/regular 9 is no fun at all since i regularly wear thin socks. the inner bootie from kobe 1's is a good example.

bballermarkie · Jun 5, 2012

They'll probably never go back to 'real' materials. They will continue to push the limits on synthetics and attempt to put as little in a shoe as possible saying that they are interested in making a light shoe but their agenda is really more concerning their profits.

Personally I don't mind the new trend toward synthetics on their performance models but I do hope that they stay away from 'improving' their older models with their new technology.

One last point, take the hyperfuse from this year for example although it is a very light shoe with decent ankle support for me as a big man I have noticed that the synthetic materials that they use aren't too great at taking a beating...a few weeks into the season some of the hyperfuse was already torn and the liner was already torn. And this problem seemed to be a trend throughout everyone on my team that chose the hyperfuse

nikedealer · Jun 5, 2012

Yeah... I think I should have clarified in my initial thread regarding "leather" when I actually meant synthetic leather material... I surely know once things went synthetic they weren't going back... but from my experience at Nike I know using a leather "like" material is just as cost effective as using plastic synthetic materials.

One thing I really wish I could convey to this new age sneaker "enthusiast" which complains about pricing is, no one is forcing them to purchase said expensive products. Also, to understand as stated above Nike IS here to make money and cutting corners while giving the message of "quality" is what they are supposed to do.

I do also think giving multiple options in different types of kicks IS the way to go. I mean we see Retro does ALOT of business and retro isn't made up of alot of plastic material, however I do know with each iteration of a retro product the material changes.

I truly believe if Jordan went to a custom ordering method where ALL signature shoes were available on NikeID in ONLY previously released colorways year round could provide a HUGE boost in sales, while keeping their regularly scheduled releases of particular Retro's each year.

For example if the Concord Jordans were released at Christmas, they could take them off NIKEID from the time they go to mass production until release. You can find reasons not to do this, but nothing would be better than providing them at a Premium price year round for the convenience of knowing you could purchase them anytime without hassle.

SORIANOTRON · Jun 5, 2012

Originally Posted by NikeDealer

First up: Will Nike EVER go back to the essence of Basketball Performance Shoes having Leather and not making an ultra light shoe the most important factor but making a well put together performance shoe that has stability, comfort, cushion and good looks its priority because it was once good enough?

Good Thread.
I think as long as NIKE is focused on MAXIMUM profit, we wont see it across the board but primarily on "premium" or top tier joints.

I mean you figure up until 2006 or so quality leather was pretty much standard on all nike footwear products across the board....now they're making us pay a premium for materials that were standard just a few years ago? #$*?

Now basically were seeing cool tech-systems like hyperfuse and VAC tech which to me, look WAAAAAY cheaper to manufacture than say a quality ALL leather upper.

In my opinion it all boils down to nikes margin of profit, they've been cutting down on production cost for almost 5+ straight years now resulting in lower quality products at higher price. Increasing the margin of profit, especially in this type of economy. From a business aspect its great, but from our side of the fence....its distgusting.

Dood the $200 MSRP of the Lebron IX (probably nikes most mass produced nike basketball product right now) is a joke.....and the "elite" line

@250$ They're just marketing ploys meant to shiest the casual consumer out of some extra $$

Like how do you justify the 125$ difference in performance from the lebron ix elite and the 2011 hyperfuse? WHAT ARE YOU PAYING 125$ FOR????????? That could be a completely new pair of quality sneaks....

chrisbone123 · Jun 5, 2012

I wish they would go back to the old materials, but like previously stated, it's probably more about maximizing profits more than technology.

As much as I like playing in the light weight Kobe VI's, I put on a pair of Retro Fila Cage's the other day for a little concrete ballin and I just felt more secure and stable. I definitely felt the weight difference but after the first game, it was a after thought.
With that being said I am very interested in the Hyperposite, hoping they will have kind of a throw back feel to them.

But on the other side, I have no complaints (so far ) in my runners made with synthetic materials ( Lunar Eclipse, Free Run+2 ), they feel great on my short runs.

nikedealer · Jun 5, 2012

I really do think the Elite Series for the Kobe, Hyper and Lebron was meant to test the waters... then again.. I know the stories well of the AF25 and how that Price point came around. I could speak for days on why marketing in some respects clashes with design and kills what could be the greatest designs ever...but Id be digressing something awful lol..

I tend to think this thread will dig up a few guys in the Beav on campus chiming in under different names...as well as just sitting back reading... saying "damn you Rock you may not get a care package this month" lololol

I guess I'll take my chances lol

SORIANOTRON · Jun 5, 2012

Im just going to go on a limb and suggest that

anyone under 21 needs to complete and pass a NIKE history course before paying 150$+ for a footwear product.

The new generations is FUELING demand for higher priced products with lower quality materials.....they dont know any better...

direct (hip hop) celebrity endorsement has also been a nail in the coffin

nikedealer · Jun 5, 2012

Originally Posted by chrisbone123

With that being said I am very interested in the Hyperposite, hoping they will have kind of a throw back feel to them.

Im right there with you on this one.
I actually think the Hyperposite is going to be a great performance product which gives that stable feel with cushioning with a tad bit of breathability that other posites haven't given...

Hopefully they release in some basic team colors AND are featured in some HOH releases that haven't seen a GREAT release since its inception and release of the Zoom BB

secretzofwar · Jun 5, 2012

Great thread Rock. I post in some of the none LeBron/Kobe/KD threads and don't even see replies.

Ultimately, depending on your age, you probably know how new tech =/ better performance. Throw a pair of insoles in some Jordan V's, and honestly, the shoe is pretty comparable to today's shoes. I'm going to be an average player no matter how "good" the tech is. Plenty of shoes that are nearly 20 years old (think AJ XII) can hold up perfectly fine against the competition today.

Either way, I'm sure these new materials are to fuel the obsession with lighter shoes. No doubt that lighter also doesn't mean better.

I'd like to see more double stacked zoom. Most underrated tech ever, IMO.

nikedealer · Jun 5, 2012

Originally Posted by secretzofwar

Plenty of shoes that are nearly 20 years old (think AJ XII) can hold up perfectly fine against the competition today.

This is the exact same shoe I thought of and to prove your point even more... Jordan is putting their signature shoes of years ago on their Team Athletes now. 20 year old tech still holds up...and to refute some thoughts that Ray Allen gets different shoes than those at retail.. no. Players at most use ortho insoles. Like Bron...

No doubt that lighter also doesn't mean better.
I agree to the hilt on this one.

I'd like to see more double stacked zoom. Most underrated tech ever, IMO.

Click to expand...

Its like you are reading my mine. Hell I even like the bottom loaded Zoom they did on Jordans for a year. Its like when something feels good.. they take it from us... hold it hostage.
Like a wife even...

bucknuteagle · Jun 5, 2012

I wonder if the whole lighter shoe movement even makes a considerable difference or if it's all psychological. My guess is the whole thing is a huge marketing ploy to help forward the acceptance of synthetic materials. The XIIs have been mentioned a couple times already, and there's good reason for that. Those are still, by far, my favorite basketball shoes I've ever worn. It was the comfort of the Bron 8s and the court feel of the ZKVs and VIs, and on top of it all those things were TANKS. I don't feel any faster or like I jump higher or anything in Kobes or Hyperdunks or whatever else is supposed to be the "new tech." And trust me, the limiting factor on 99.9999% of people's basketball skills are not their shoes. Even in the NBA the shoes don't seem to matter all that much unless they're the wrong size or shoddily constructed. Of course they've got custom orthotics, but so do most remotely serious runners. Basically what I'm saying is, we'll know in about 5 years if all of the hyperfuse stuff holds up, but after seeing what's happened to my beater Kobe's after a year and a half... it's not looking good. Meanwhile my 12 year old XI's are doing just fine... who woulda thunk?

jayzrdead · Jun 5, 2012

Originally Posted by manslayer

Nike is a corporation looking to make money. To cut costs, they have cut out the expensive parts of the shoes (leather) and replaced it with a cheaper alternative (plastic, hyperfuse, flywire, etc.) and use these as "breaking technology" and upped the price to maximize their profit margin. So, as long as they are selling and Nike continues to make money, then don't expect the shoes to include leather anytime soon.

took the words out of my mouth.
im 25 but been cruising nt since middle school, there arent too many sneaker forums so of course everyone migrates to the few. the current state is just a fad, nikes will always be popular but this over saturation will decline when someone finds the next hot thing.

vood99 · Jun 5, 2012

Rock, thank you for starting this thread. It would also be fantastic if our discussion focused on Nike's business practices, marketing ploys and overall direction in the manufacturing processes.

I'm knocking on 30 and I've grown up with leather based shoes, it almost comes as a shock to see pleather, hyperfuse and other plastic based materials completely take over Nike's product line. I often wonder if the 'Premium' and 'Supreme' models have leatherette or vinyl as opposed to full grain leather - and it would be great if someone could chime in on this.

I do remember when Nike would mark their synthetic leather products with a SL suffix on the label and then they slowly started replacing the leather on their retro (now NSW) product (AF1, Cortez, Dunk) with pleather. In fact, I hope this thread can bring Coach Hubie out from hiding as I'd like to know what his stance on this subject is.

On the whole AF1 vs. AF25 debacle - their timing and planning were both wrong. They released a plethora of AF1s in a tier based system along with a plethora of AF25s in some of the worst colourways imaginable. They were destined to fail from the get go. If they did the same thing today, the overall result would be mixed - the limited shoes would fly off the shelves but the not so limited ones would be heavily discounted.

nikedealer · Jun 6, 2012

Vood on the AF25 subject you are absolutely correct. They flooded the Market with the AF25's EVERYWHERE mom and Pops inline retailers and the like.... then threw a $200+ price point on them.... with horrible colors to boot.

The advent of NIKEID should have been obvious but wasn't utilized. This lead later to the Zoom BB 1's I often make reference to. Retailers didnt want anything to do with a similar product which is why the 2nd BB looked much different.

This didnt have to be. Those earth tones were the worst creations and ideas ever. It took me back to dudes wearing those racing shoes to clubs. That shoe was a great performer and they just didnt push the product the way it should have. Limited releases in HOH's and horrible in line releases.

Now they've released the Zoom BB 1.5 and it feels nothing like the OG and its just another GREAT design wasted. I do wish the 2K3 were given consideration but knowing it would go to Sportswear to release and not Nike Basketball, I know it would be gutted and changed from the OG model and thus bastardized. But again.. I tear up digressing over such another great shoe....

Full Zoom.. Double Stack..and Bottom Loaded Zoom.. all stuff we just wont see on a regular but should. Why? Because of that profit margin you all talk about which is also being used on different 360 Zoom bags which I cant complain about but yet they are making the Zoom bags smaller than a nickel. *sigh* where to begin?

secretzofwar · Jun 6, 2012

^ Good stuff Rock. The market just wasn't the same either when the AF25 dropped. And the Zoom BB's had easily the worst colorways ever, trying to combat the "driving shoe" trend at the time.

Not only is that stuff better for margins, but the other big problem is that people don't actually play in the shoes anymore. I doubt anyone really knows that the Jordan XVIII, XIX, and XX all perform muuuuch better than the LeBron 9. It baffles me how bad the 180 Air Max heel is on the 9.

The most unfortunate issue? Adidas isn't pushing Nike basketball at all. You'd think they'd create a formal competitor, but they just can't seem to find decent cushioning technology. And Under Armour is just not doing much yet. I've tried on a few pairs, but nothing has felt great.

Big problem with NT is the INSANE amount of hype. Some great shoes have dropped the last few years, but you wouldn't have heard about it from one of the world's biggest Nike message boards...

miamin2 · Jun 6, 2012

^The XVIII and XIX SE's were some of the best shoes I've ever balled in, along with the original 2k4s, XIVs and Ultraflights. Always wanted the 2k3s but never got my hands on a pair
I feel like that msrp's for the XVIII's and XIXs are the most I could ever see myself paying for a top tier basketball shoe, but no shoe coming out today compares to those I mentioned imo. I could see maybe the Zoom Braves but I'm pretty sure those are only available overseas unless you get them on Nikeid.

About the Zoom BB's, I agree that Nike totally dropped the ball on them. I remember when they came out I wanted to scoop a pair badly but no way i was settling for any of the GR colorways that came out

and the tb colorways were hard to find. Of course the HOH colorways we got were nice but at that time they were only like 3-4 HOH's from what I recall.

Speaking of HOH, that's a whole 'nother discussion on how that concept has turned out smh

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Serious Open Discussion on Nike Circa #NT 2007

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