Kobe/Shaq Trade Revisited

Kobe >>>> Shaq
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wow, did you figure that one out all by yourself

Its clear Lakers fans are biased, they want to believe they got the better end of the deal but i will glady take the championship we won and be bad for a fewyears, Once we get some new younger talent and they develop we will get better. People in here acting like we're gonna having losing seasons for eternity,because we are down right now. Wake up people.
 
i cant imagine what the Lakers would look like today if they kept Shaq
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Ok ok, let me make sure I have this right. Bynum will be the best thing to happen to the league?
yup because the Lakers are back --which means the ratings go up--which also means more $$$$ for the NBA
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The Knicks also were stupid and traded picks and never have had a top 5 pick in all of the horrible seasons...

Something that Miami is on pace for
 
man L.A should have kept Shaq.... they'd have won probably at least one more title because Malone likely would have been back for 1 more year, same withGP, Fox was still retiring regardless IMO..... I mean both KB and Shaq basically let their ego's get in the way of winning.... Basically egos were toblame. It wasn't just one guys fault.... But
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at Shaq for this, "I got hurt on company time, so I'll heal on company time."


When Lakers camp started in 04, O'Neal told reporters Bryant should look to be more of a passer than a scorer until Bryant's knee was fully healed. Bryant took offense, and fired back that he did not appreciate unsolicited advice from O'Neal on how to play the guard position.

O'Neal then responded that he would voice his opinions as he saw fit because the Lakers were his team. He said that if Bryant, who would be a free agent at the season's end, didn't like what O'Neal had to say, Bryant should just leave the team.

Bryant replied with his most scathing public criticism of O'Neal. In an interview with Jim Gray of ESPN, Bryant questioned O'Neal's claims of team leadership. Bryant claimed that O'Neal came into training camp "fat" and "out of shape," that O'Neal blamed others for the team's defeats, and had previously exaggerated the degree to which injuries had affected his game as cover for simply being out of condition. Bryant criticized O'Neal's public lobbying for a contract extension. He also criticized O'Neal for only taking responsibility when the team won. He accused O'Neal of threatening not to put forth his best effort if he was not passed the ball more often.

In the interview, Bryant went on to bristle at O'Neal's previous characterizations of their relationship as "big brother" and "little brother." Bryant claimed that as his legal difficulties began he had gotten phone calls of support from around the sports world, and even a call from O'Neal's uncle, but had heard nothing from O'Neal himself. This, said Bryant, was not what one would expect from one's "big brother."

Bryant further claimed that O'Neal's "unprofessionalism" had hurt the Lakers, and that if Bryant did choose to leave the team at the end of the season, a major contributing factor to that decision would be, O'Neal's "childlike selfishness and jealousy."


MJ said it best in a 2005 interview: Link


Question: How would you fix the Lakers today?

MJ: I would have never gotten rid of Shaq. It's as simple as that. You've gotthree championships with a big man, and big men are hard to find. Not only that, you have the most dominant big man in the game today. You don't just sendhim away because you got some problems. But you can't blame one guy. It's a combination of both of them. If you've got success in your house, youfind a way to manage so that everybody prospers and everybody is viewed as champions. Personalities got involved after they'd had some success. It becomesabout individuals-individual goals that they wanted to achieve. Be it Kobe leading the league in scoring and carrying the team by himself, or Shaq proving hecan win without Kobe. What's the purpose of changing if you've got the right mixture that's working? Give me a seven-footer and I'd probablystill be playing right now."
 
Originally Posted by seasoned vet

Originally Posted by illwill24

OK so it's about five years since Shaq got traded to Miami, after a tumultuous seven years on the Lakers.

So many people said that the Laker's front office, and Kobe himself, were guilty of getting rid of one of the greatest big men of all time for a younger Kobe Bryant. They got so much heat for that move, but stuck to their guns, and next season drafted an unproven 17-year-old from high school named Andrew Bynum.

Do you STILL think the Lakers made a dumb move?

As the Lakers hold the top position in the Pacific conference over Phoenix, and Miami holds (one of) the worst record(s) in the league, it seems the Lakers were right.

Shaq hasn't played a full 82-game season since Del Harris days, and Kobe is leading a young Laker team to the NBA's elite. I don't think Jerry Buss is as dumb as we take him to be, and in hindsight, moving Shaq seems to have helped the Laker organization more than it hurt it.

Soooo.........Kobe haters where are you?

- true, Bynum is looking pretty good but lets be real, by the time Bynum and Co. are at a consistent level to begin to compete in the Playoffs against the big dogs in the West Kobe will be on the decline....so go figure
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You mean this year?
 
When miami made the trade they werent looking towards the future. They knew that Shaq was wearing down but they got him for exactly why they brought him in tohave instant success and a top center next to Wade. Miami won the deal especiially because Bynum wasnt involved in the deal, and he could have been taken asShaq's replacement even if they still had Shaq and all the other dudes they got in the deal were trash in LA and the only one to make something of himselfwas Butler, but he was terrible for the Lakers. There is no way the Lakers won this, and Bynum is completely outside of this trade. sure they have some successnow but that could have happened without the Shaq trade because no one that they got had any succeess as a Laker what so ever. They definitley could havegotten more value for the NBA's elite center.
 
My only gripe about the whole thing is that Shaq probably has the worst contract in the NBA.

$30 million a year for a 35 year old who only plays 50 games a year? And when he's on the court, he averages 14 and 8? For 30 million? And you'rethe worst team in the league 4 years after the trade? I know he won the ring, but now you're the worst team in the league, worse off than you were BEFOREthe trade. Except now you're cap-strapped.

Like I said, Hummer and X5
 
The trade was fair, the only reason it might not look that way is because the Lakers made a terrible move by trading Caron for Kwame.

Lakers got players to build for the future, the Heat got one player that would immediately help them win a title, which he did. The Lakers would have beenbetter a lot sooner if they didn't trade for Caron, but as NBA blockbusters go, this was as fair as it gets.
 
The winners were the heat. There is no other way to look at it. Shaq forced this trade. We had to take what they were going to give to us because he wanted tobe gone. The heat made that deal because they wanted to win a chip and now. That's what they did.

But what does this matter? And why even bring this up? We are playing well now but we have a very though time ahead of us and I don't think some laker fanshave figured that out yet.

I am all for talking crap but we (laker fans) should talk crap when we have something to back it up with. (Ie a title, not another first round exit ect)
 
Obviously the heat win in the short term and the lakers appear to be winning the long time battle by a landslide. Imagine if we still had Caron butler? Who didwe trade him for? Please tell me it Kwame Brown
 
I would have to say for now that the heat won. If the Lakers wina one title with Kobe its a tie and if the Lakers win more than one then the Lakers win. IMOwho wins is not about anything other than the number of titles. On a completely different note I cant stand Jordan anymore. When he played and even after heretired I loved him, but he pisses me off with all his crap. I know he sometime praises Kobe, but when he says stuff like I would have kept Shaq or I wouldhave handled it differently it just pisses me off. Its no secret that the majority of Jordan's teamates did not like him. The media just protected him andnever really wrote that much bad stuff about him. And I honestly believe that when he went to play baseball it was to get out of the limeligh because hisgamblig stuff was going to come back to haunt him. Sure Mike is one of the greatest players ever, sure he is better than Kobe, but personality wise he and Kobeare the same, so Mike just needs to shut up.
 
Ugh, this is a horrible thread because it's based on multiple premises that aren't true:

1. the Lakers made a choice between Shaq and Kobe
2. the trade was a result of that choice
3. a fan of the Lakers should grade the trade based on how well it worked out for the Heat
4. people who thought the Heat got the better end of the deal were "Kobe haters"


1 & 2. The decision to trade Shaq was as independent of their desire to re-sign Kobe as it could be.

They didn't want to give Shaq the money he wanted. They didn't want to keep the coach that Shaq said was the only one he would play for. Even beforeKobe publicly announced that he would be opting out of his contract at the end of the season he said that he had made it known to people in the organizationand his teammates. Take this last point and factor it in with the first two which came after Kobe was letting people know he was going to opt out and youfigure out what was on Shaq's mind.

The Lakers were NOT treating Shaq like the franchise player and he saw the writing on the wall. He stated as much during the post Finals interviews (Shaqstated that he didn't like the direction the franchise was headed in) and made his trade demand after Mitch made it clear who the Lakers viewed as theirfranchise players (didn't want to be the guy that traded Kobe; wouldn't trade Kobe under any circumstances vs didn't want to trade Shaq, but wouldlisten to offers).

Shaq was not going to be a Laker regardless of what happened with Kobe.

3. We knew that the trade wasn't going to be even because Shaq was in the power position (he said that he'd conveniently be injured for the season orsomething along those lines if he wound up on a team that wasn't on his list), the track record of these trades, and the track record of Mitch at the time.Shaq was going to work his hardest to get in shape and whichever team he went to was going to do better than the Lakers. Lakers fans should grade the tradebased on what else was out there for us (not rumors, but trades other teams were actually willing to do) and how well the players we got did.

We also need to have more time. Look at the unfair critique of AI in Philly regarding not being able to play with "stars" (Stackhouse, Hughes, etc.).Not only were people wrong, but they failed to see that the moves Philly made with those players got them the players that helped AI get to the Finals. Whiletrading Caron for Kwame was a bad move, we still don't know what, other than frustration, will come of Kwame. We have to have the patience to grade thistrade for the Lakers and keep irrelevant facts out (Bynum) and the relevant facts in (poor choice of coach, injuries).

Finally, we have to compare what happened after the trade to what happened had we not made the trade (ie. better with or without Shaq?). Kobe may not haveagreed to a sign and trade to Chicago preferring to sign outright with the Clippers. That would have left the Lakers with a mid-level exception and little totrade with. Honestly, there's no doubt in my mind that they still trade Shaq and don't re-sign Jackson. They'd have to blow the team up.

As frustrating as the past few seasons have been and as little as I like the side of Kobe that causes all of his public mistakes, I probably would have likedfor the Lakers to start over, but they've got to make money and they believe in what they're doing.

4 stands alone.
 
The reality is that running a team is a business and not completely about winning
championships as we are lead to believe. This is my opinion of course and I may
be wrong.

Shaq was an aging center with a high potential salary. Sure the Heat won a
championship but they have to pay this dude a boat load over the next few years.
I defy anyone to say that he really worth it at this point of his career.

The lakers are rebuilding and have the best player on this planet so their future
is looking bright if you ask me... Kobe just needs to stop acting like a spoiled kid
when handling his dealings with management.
 
Originally Posted by Tha Murdera 2001

Originally Posted by lawdog1

I guess it comes down to how you measure the success of a franchise. If you take the position that championships are all that matter, until the Lakers win another won, the Heat got the better end of the deal. Given all the teams in the league that have never won a title, or haven't come close for decades, I think championships are pretty important.

Yes, the Lakers are playing very well now, but it is a bit premature to start judging the success of this season. They are getting big contributions from a lot of guys right now, but there is no way to predict whether that will continue in the playoffs. We all know that playoff basketball is very different from the regular season. All the teams that make the playoffs in the West, 1 - 8, are going to be good. It wouldn't surprise me if the Lakers went to the conference finals or if they lost in the 1st round again. In short, let's see how playoffs go before anyone says the Lakers are back to being an elite team.

Finally, I don't think Miami necessarily mortgaged their future for the championship they got with Shaq. It is not as hard as it used to be to go from very bad to very good in the NBA (see Celtics). They have a young star to build around in Wade and are going to get a top draft pick this year. If they can pick up a couple quality free agents after Shaq retires, they should be back to being at least a playoff team, if not a championship one.
The thing is,NBA contracts are gaurenteed(sp?)..which means,if Shaq decided to retire early(which his body might force him to do),his contract is STILL on their books..

like dude said,see the Knicks for example..they still have Allen Houston's contract to deal with
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I know that teams still have to pay retired players, but do the contracts still count against the salary cap? I'm asking because I don't know.

Also, I don't know if the Knicks are a really good example. Thanks to Mr. Thomas, pretty much every player on that team has a bad contract. It would bepretty hard for another team to duplicate the mess that is the Knicks.
 
I know that teams still have to pay retired players, but do the contracts still count against the salary cap?


Yes, a retired player's salary still counts against the team's salary cap. The same goes for players that are bought out.


I forgot to mention the financial benefits the Lakers reaped from the trade, but other people have already mentioned it.
 
Considering all of the constraints that faced Mitch Kupchak, he made the correct decision. In 2004, it was choice between Shaq and Kobe. Yes, it would havebeen nice if they had worked it all out and Shaq and Kobe and Phil Jackson and the rest of the veterans would have returned in '04-'05, it would havebeen nice if Kobe had acted more mature and embraced his teammates to a greater degree and it would have been since if Shaquille O'Neal had decided to makehis conditioning a top priority. That was that the case and Kupchak was forced to choose between a young superstar, who takes care of his body or an agingSuper Star, who would have celebrated his vistory over Kobe my resting on his laurels even more and letting his body fall apart.

Kupchak choose the former and in the long run it is looking like it was the better of the two options he faced. He lost almost everyone except for hisrelatively young super star and we were in a state of rebuilding.

The trade itself was a debacle and we clearly received unequal value, as is almost always the case in moving a super star, especially a super star, who wantsto be moved. Kupchak had very little choice in this whole matter and had to trade to receive much less in exchange for Shaq.


Ultimately though, it is looking like Kupchak is smarter than everyone in Lakerland thought he was. His draft picks have been good decisions. With Bynum, hehas found a replacement for Shaq and guy who is developing into a the best center in the NBA. He has also drafted Walton, Farmar and Turiaf, who all are solidplayers who can be in the rotation of a championship caliber team. He also made up for his mistake in the Caron Butler trade by acquiring Trever Ariza. Addthose guys into the mix with the one lasting bright spot from Shaq trade, Lamar Odom, and a free agent from the glory says, D Fish, and suddenly you have ateam that is not only very good now but will be able to be great in the next several years.

It seems like Kupchak has had some sort of master plan, which is finally coming to fruition. He has been stocking the roster with players who are not onlytalented but who make good decisions on the court, who can play good defense by being able to guard multiple positions, who are good rebounders and whosetalents fit the triangle offense.

We now have several players who can guard multiple positions and they will have Bynum guarding the paint so the more they gel as a unit, the better theirdefense will be and defense is vital in post season success. Most of the roster seems smart enough to be able to learn the triangle and they have the talent toexecute it well. Everyone can hit the mid range shots, pass well, cut, finish and there are multiple players on the team who can post up well, that talentcombined with the triangle offense means that they will be able score consistently with easy lay ups and open shots. Finally they can rebound well for theirpositions and they do not give games away my making foolish mistakes.

When you get stops, make you opponents make mistakes, have the ability to execute the offense very well, out rebound people and have it together enough to notmake mistakes you will be a contender. You will be dominant team when you have a dominant center, who will own the paint at both ends and a perimeter playerlike Kobe who can and will score with games on the line, it would be a disappointment if the Lakers do not win a Championship by 2012 or 2013.
 
Originally Posted by Rexanglorum

Considering all of the constraints that faced Mitch Kupchak, he made the correct decision. In 2004, it was choice between Shaq and Kobe. Yes, it would have been nice if they had worked it all out and Shaq and Kobe and Phil Jackson and the rest of the veterans would have returned in '04-'05, it would have been nice if Kobe had acted more mature and embraced his teammates to a greater degree and it would have been since if Shaquille O'Neal had decided to make his conditioning a top priority. That was that the case and Kupchak was forced to choose between a young superstar, who takes care of his body or an aging Super Star, who would have celebrated his vistory over Kobe my resting on his laurels even more and letting his body fall apart.

Kupchak choose the former and in the long run it is looking like it was the better of the two options he faced. He lost almost everyone except for his relatively young super star and we were in a state of rebuilding.

The trade itself was a debacle and we clearly received unequal value, as is almost always the case in moving a super star, especially a super star, who wants to be moved. Kupchak had very little choice in this whole matter and had to trade to receive much less in exchange for Shaq.


Ultimately though, it is looking like Kupchak is smarter than everyone in Lakerland thought he was. His draft picks have been good decisions. With Bynum, he has found a replacement for Shaq and guy who is developing into a the best center in the NBA. He has also drafted Walton, Farmar and Turiaf, who all are solid players who can be in the rotation of a championship caliber team. He also made up for his mistake in the Caron Butler trade by acquiring Trever Ariza. Add those guys into the mix with the one lasting bright spot from Shaq trade, Lamar Odom, and a free agent from the glory says, D Fish, and suddenly you have a team that is not only very good now but will be able to be great in the next several years.

It seems like Kupchak has had some sort of master plan, which is finally coming to fruition. He has been stocking the roster with players who are not only talented but who make good decisions on the court, who can play good defense by being able to guard multiple positions, who are good rebounders and whose talents fit the triangle offense.

We now have several players who can guard multiple positions and they will have Bynum guarding the paint so the more they gel as a unit, the better their defense will be and defense is vital in post season success. Most of the roster seems smart enough to be able to learn the triangle and they have the talent to execute it well. Everyone can hit the mid range shots, pass well, cut, finish and there are multiple players on the team who can post up well, that talent combined with the triangle offense means that they will be able score consistently with easy lay ups and open shots. Finally they can rebound well for their positions and they do not give games away my making foolish mistakes.

When you get stops, make you opponents make mistakes, have the ability to execute the offense very well, out rebound people and have it together enough to not make mistakes you will be a contender. You will be dominant team when you have a dominant center, who will own the paint at both ends and a perimeter player like Kobe who can and will score with games on the line, it would be a disappointment if the Lakers do not win a Championship by 2012 or 2013.
Co-sign
Couldn't have said it any better myself
 
It was a win-win trade- both teams got exactly what they expected. Miami knew they would have a GREAT 3 year window to win; the lakers knew they probablywouldn't do anything for 3-4 years and then if they were wise, they would be back. Do people honestly think Miami traded for Shaq expecting him to beapart of a championship contender for the next 5, 6, 7 years? "Well, Miami is only in trouble now because Shaq got hurt..." Like nobody expected this
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And I'm pretty sure everyone in the Lakers organization (except Kobe) probably thought they weren't winning anything those first few years with thelikes of Slava, Tierre Brown, Smush, Mihm, etc.

Shaq and Kobe were done winning chips together. A change had to be made so that team wouldn't slowly drift into mediocrity.
 
Yes, it would have been nice if they had worked it all out and Shaq and Kobe and Phil Jackson and the rest of the veterans would have returned in '04-'05, it would have been nice if Kobe had acted more mature and embraced his teammates to a greater degree...


It was only Phil and Shaq that didn't want to come back.

Payton re-signed with the team.

Malone was going to re-sign with the team as long as his rehab' went well (Kobe and his wife's overreaction kept him off the team and you can'thold that against them).

Fisher stated that he would have come back for less money had the Lakers promised him the starting job.

It seems to me that he embraced his teammates well enough. Think about it like this, if the players thought the organization had done Shaq and/or Phil wrongand that Kobe had helped force them out, why would they willingly re-sign or be willing to re-sign with the Lakers? It wasn't money because they could havehad more elsewhere. It wasn't playing time because they could have had the same minutes elsewhere. It wasn't an attachment to the city because Paytonand Malone had only been there a year.

Whatever we've heard to the contrary, he isn't a bad enough teammate to drive people off the team. Well, maybe Chucky Atkins, but I'm not reallyworried about losing the Chucky Atkins of the NBA.
 
Originally Posted by WILLINC

Lakers fans really believe in their hearts they have a championship contender ?
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I think it depends on how easy their road is..... If they secure a high seed then they should at least get to the 2nd round....... but really this team hasonly one legitimate player, one legitimate coach, one up and coming player, one inconsistent player, and a bunch of talented role players/scrubs...... Idon't think L.A. is a contender THIS SEASON..... but they are a very good team..... Peopleusually forget the impact Phil has on this team.......
 
Originally Posted by holdenmichael

Malone was going to re-sign with the team as long as his rehab' went well (Kobe and his wife's overreaction kept him off the team and you can't hold that against them).

I was so mad at Malone not returning. He blew Kobe's comment way out of proportion. While Malone was injured I believe Kobe said something to theeffect of, "We can't be sitting here wondering when Karl will be back. We have to keep playing hard and not worry about it."

I guess Malone took Kobe's comment as "Oh, we don't need him on this team. We're fine without him."

*EDIT*

After researching a little, I guess it was more about Malone coming on to Vanessa.
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but shaq had gotten another championship
Man that chip was bs they shouldnt have won that championship
D wade got so many bs calls its not even funny
Dallas got cheated out of the chip
whatever tho
lakers r good now
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