Star Wars Universe Thread: May The 4th Be With You

Did you like The Last Jedi?

  • Yes

    Votes: 68 71.6%
  • Yes

    Votes: 27 28.4%

  • Total voters
    95
  • Poll closed .
You aint reading either. You also just wanna go off :lol:

IV is okay, V I like. I dont like VI or the prequels. Many SW fans dont like the prequels. Thus, I only dislike 1 more film than many star wars fans.

I didnt say "most", "almost all", I said many. Even if only 10%of fans hated the prequels, then that would be "many". Or are you now trying to argue the definition of many?

Just a couple pages ago you were arguing that prequel hate is common amongst fans :lol:

Keep at it tho. :rofl:
 
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sunshineblotters sunshineblotters

I believe you homie :lol:...

Kanye shrug...

ecrhgw.gif


But some people just want to argue so we can keep at this lame *** argument for the rest of the thread. Dont een care
 
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Prequels that suck = 2.

RotS is not one that sucks. Neither is RotJ.

I can read fine. You're just making **** up. And honestly, if you've seen all 6 films, why you askin what the Old Republic is????? I mean.....
 
I didnt see them recently. Sorry I dont have elephant memory.

The second most recent film came out 13 years ago and I wasnt that invested in it. :lol:
 
So I can ask a question on them and be tantalized for it? :lol:

Nor do I see why Id have to watch the prequels. IH, Thor, and Cap wont prepare you for Age of Ultron.

I would ask if I'd need to know anything of importance in the prequels but I know how much that offends you. :rofl:
 
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I would just watch the movies or go read a synopsis if you don't care that much. You won't really entirely get what they're going for but I guess it'd be like seeing the avengers after seeing the first iron man
 
IM, IM2, IM3, Thor 1 and 2, Cap 1 and 2 are needed tho.

You can't be sittin there goin, who's Black Widow? Or what's Shield? :lol:

You askin about Old Republic is similar to askin about Shield, no joke.

And what will make it worse is, it sounds like they've changed the names. No longer Empire, or New/Old Republic. Think it said New Order, or somethin like that. Those are things you won't be able to translate.
Iono. Goin in basically blind, to watch a 7th film is going to have you missing valid details.

Same as you asking why the villiain doesn't have a Darth name. Why limit how much you might or might not enjoy 7, because some key things go over your head? I know you are a comic guy, think of how much you instantly get from your comic knowledge, that all goes over your head in this instance.
 
IM, IM2, IM3, Thor 1 and 2, Cap 1 and 2 are needed tho.

You can't be sittin there goin, who's Black Widow? Or what's Shield? :lol:

You askin about Old Republic is similar to askin about Shield, no joke.

And what will make it worse is, it sounds like they've changed the names. No longer Empire, or New/Old Republic. Think it said New Order, or somethin like that. Those are things you won't be able to translate.
Iono. Goin in basically blind, to watch a 7th film is going to have you missing valid details.

Same as you asking why the villiain doesn't have a Darth name. Why limit how much you might or might not enjoy 7, because some key things go over your head? I know you are a comic guy, think of how much you instantly get from your comic knowledge, that all goes over your head in this instance.

That is a huge overstatement...
 
I just recently finished watching 1-6 with my girl, we watched Rebels, and now we're going to start Clone Wars in chronological order.

Yesterday I just finished Ep. 1 again, and I'm poppin in Ep. 2 as we speak.

A random thought about Ep. 1.

The "dual of the fates" is what literally determines the fate of the saga. Had Qui Gon not died, I don't think Anakin turns to the dark side. It seems to me that Qui Gon was one of the few Jedi that actually "got it", and would have trained Anakin properly. When people say Anakin's turn to the dark side is sudden, I don't think it is because to me it starts the moment he's put under Obi's wing. Obi never even wanted to train him, and only did it because Qui Gon asked him to before his death. Even the council was against it from the jump. He was always a burden to the Jedi. When Yoda tells Anakin that fear leads to the dark side, he's right. But to me, the Jedi's fear and mistrust of Anakin is ultimately what causes him to turn to the darkside.
 
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I just recently finished watching 1-6 with my girl, we watched Rebels, and now we're going to start Clone Wars in chronological order.

Yesterday I just finished Ep. 1 again, and I'm poppin in Ep. 2 as we speak.

A random thought about Ep. 1.

The "dual of the fates" is what literally determines the fate of the saga. Had Qui Gon not died, I don't think Anakin turns to the dark side. It seems to me that Qui Gon was one of the few Jedi that actually "got it", and would have trained Anakin properly. When people say Anakin's turn to the dark side is sudden, I don't think it is because to me it starts the moment he's put under Obi's wing. Obi never even wanted to train him, and only did it because Qui Gon asked him to before his death. Even the council was against it from the jump. He was always a burden to the Jedi. When Yoda tells Anakin that fear leads to the dark side, he's right. But to me, the Jedi's fear and mistrust of Anakin is ultimately what causes him to turn to the darkside.


Here’s my thing on that line of thinking tho. To say Qui Gon is one of the few that “got it”………I mean, it’s the Jedi Order. 10,000 strong. Centuries of beliefs, and traditions. And QUI GON, gets it? The guy that defied the order. The guy that cheated in a random gambling situation with Watto. And in terms of the movie itself, the one that had absolutely nothing worth saying, and was more Jedi in Batman Begins? (he was severely misused in Phantom, the whole story they put him thru was terrible) But, let’s say for this sake you are right, and he’s “wiser/better” than the others. The next point then is…….
Phantom is with Anakin at 8. Attack of the Clones is Anakin at 18. And Sith is Anakin at roughly 23 or so. That’s 15 years later. Anakin knew Qui Gon for a few days, maybe weeks if we stretch it. He spent 15 years with Obi Wan. I can’t sit back and say that Qui Gon dying is what changed the fate of Anakin.
He’s put under Obi Wan at 8 years old, so to say it starts the moment he is under Obi Wan is a big stretch.

Again, the OG from Ben’s own mouth is “I tried to train Anakin on my own” after telling Luke he needs to go train with Yoda, the Jedi Master that instructed him. Yet somehow Lucas goes to write Ep I, and inserts somebody named Qui Gon into the role. That right there is the problem. He tried to add story, when he didn’t need to. Qui Gon was so important, that Ben never mentions him to Luke, and George kills him in the first film, after he just met Anakin? He’s that instrumental into Anakin’s fate that those things happen? I’m not asking you to agree or disagree with George or his writing, I’m asking you to think of the story logically, from 1977 to 1999. He tried to alter the story that he himself had set up 2 decades earlier, and tried to fill in gaps, so to speak. He should have kept it, simply, Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin. Not insert Qui Gon into the mix, make him seem really important, only his actions say otherwise as he kills him off with ease. When you think about it, Phantom is set up to be so majestic, that he introduced Obi, Anakin, Yoda, Palpatine, Padme, but kills both Maul and Qui Gon immediately. A horrible, horrible decision.

What I liked, from Sith, he only dabbled in, and that was the Council not letting Anakin become a Master. THAT, is EXACTLY what they should have focused on, much earlier. When I’ve talked with you (and everyone else in here) about the prequels, and the problems I have with it story wise, the “suddenness” you’re referring to is midway thru the final film, Anakin Skywalker is STILL GOOD. He’s still a Jedi. He’s in love with his wife. He’s going to be a father. He loves Obi Wan. When they are saying goodbye, he tells Obi Wan he’s sorry, and he’s been impatient, and he’s thankful for him and all that. 20 minutes later, he’s trying to kill him. Look at that man. Just look at it. I hate that that is how it went down. I understand that’s how it had to happen, because George put himself into that box. He wasted too much time earlier. Had he not dealt with that lazy stuff in Phantom, he could have had the entire 3rd film be Anakin’s descent. He could have spent 2-2.5 hours focused on him not being allowed to be a master, on some issue with Obi Wan, not just he had bad dreams and decided to follow Palpatine. It is such a waste of time and storytelling. We should/could have had 3 films on the adult transformation of Anakin. Phantom could have been teenage Anakin and the beginning stuff takes place there, the clone wars stuff in 2, and the complete descent in 3. He was still working on Clone Wars stuff at the start of 3, and still introducing characters. (Grievous) Like, what???

He did the best he could, he closed the story well, the ending was beautiful, he tied several smaller loose ends like Obi Wan grabbing Anakins lightsaber, he did a good job closing it down, but he left sooooooooooo much out there. Yes, I know your point on his story, vs what I wanted, but that’s just it, this all stems from 1977, 1980, and 1983. The story that he had Obi Wan tell, in those films. That Yoda told, in those films. He then tries to adjust 20 years later to fit in some new pieces. I’m asking you, if Qui Gon is so important to the theme, overall story of Anakin, why zero mention in the OG trilogy, and then dead in the first movie of the prequels? Is that not a waste? Darth Maul, absolute terror. Nightmare version of a Sith. Rage for days. A PLAGUE on the universe he was so evil, and so skilled. He killed a single Jedi and died. I mean………. :lol: I want to cry just thinkin about that man. Maul could have been a freaking SAVAGE, for 3 damn films, and ultimately, Anakin could have killed him, and that becomes the step to standing by Palpatines side. Coulda gone a million ways. But just in terms of working with what we were given, how vital are Qui Gon and Maul, really, when they are dead with less than an hour and a half of screen time? (sadly, much much shorter for Maul)

I do like your Jedi fear and mistrust leads Anakin to the darkside. In theory, I like that. I will think on that. But again, screentime, with the clock ticking, and 20-30 minutes left in the film, the final film for all time for all we knew in 2005, he’s still a good guy, a hero, a Jedi. Then he turns. That’s the suddenness that bothers me. Had the entire third film (the third act if you will) been Anakin as a Sith apprentice, then we would have truly had something. That iconic scene, of Vader standing next to the Emperor, arms folded, smile on Palpatine’s face, imagine, just imagine if that was the close to the second film, and not the third. :nerd: Imagine the hype that would have come for #3. Imagine the carnage that they could have delved into in the final film. The story we were told in 1977. But he went back and for some reason changed, for Jar Jar, and podraces, and 8 year olds, etc. Stuff we absolutely did not need to see. He could have given us what his original story was when this all began. That, to me, is where the suddenness comes from. Not the moment Qui Gon dies, and 15 years later Anakin turns to the Darkside. That’s a huge stretch, for a Jedi that Anakin barely knew, when he was then raised and trained by Obi Wan, and somehow decides to try and kill him with a half hour left in the series.

There was some stuff in the Sith book that I wish would have made it to the film. Some dialogue between Palpatine and Anakin that wasn’t in the movie, some real good stuff, but obviously they didn’t have 4 hours to complete the film, so it may have just been added for the book purposes, I don’t know. I haven’t read it in several years, so it’s a little foggy to me now, but it was on some mind bending **** he was great at. Another piece I really, really wish would have been expanded was the Qui Gon/Maul fight with the shields. The way Qui Gon went to his knees and meditated, versus the pacing that Maul did like a damn caged animal. That was such a beautiful way to show Jedi vs Sith idealisms, I wanted that grown and fleshed out so much more. And while I’m sittin here, how do we go from Maul, to 82 year old Dokuu? What kind of **** is that in terms of Sith/Dark Jedi, however you want to classify them? I hated that in terms of adversary. During the era of the Clone Wars/10,000 Jedi strong, I needed some true threats in the Sith, like Palpatine, not a true warrior dead in 20 minutes, and a geriatric that steals the lightning bit we’d already been shown in 1983.

And I mean, “Only a Sith deals in absolutes…..” Is, an absolute. What in the hell man? :lol: :lol:


And before everyone starts gettin excited, I got nothin against NT23, we simply disagree on some things in terms of Lucas and what not, but both of us are all in on the franchise itself, just in different ways. We battle things out, bicker and argue, but I don’t have anything against the man personally or anything like that, I argue with everyone like this. I’m an *** hole, not really a secret or anything. :lol: You guys always tellin me to calm down, or relax, I’m not even goin nuts or anything when we go at it, just me typin up some thoughts on a franchise I’m fairly well versed in. Same as I would do for my Dolphins, or Cubs, or Lakers, etc.
 
I just recently finished watching 1-6 with my girl, we watched Rebels, and now we're going to start Clone Wars in chronological order.

Yesterday I just finished Ep. 1 again, and I'm poppin in Ep. 2 as we speak.

A random thought about Ep. 1.

The "dual of the fates" is what literally determines the fate of the saga. Had Qui Gon not died, I don't think Anakin turns to the dark side. It seems to me that Qui Gon was one of the few Jedi that actually "got it", and would have trained Anakin properly. When people say Anakin's turn to the dark side is sudden, I don't think it is because to me it starts the moment he's put under Obi's wing. Obi never even wanted to train him, and only did it because Qui Gon asked him to before his death. Even the council was against it from the jump. He was always a burden to the Jedi. When Yoda tells Anakin that fear leads to the dark side, he's right. But to me, the Jedi's fear and mistrust of Anakin is ultimately what causes him to turn to the darkside.


Here’s my thing on that line of thinking tho. To say Qui Gon is one of the few that “got it”………I mean, it’s the Jedi Order. 10,000 strong. Centuries of beliefs, and traditions. And QUI GON, gets it? The guy that defied the order. The guy that cheated in a random gambling situation with Watto. And in terms of the movie itself, the one that had absolutely nothing worth saying, and was more Jedi in Batman Begins? (he was severely misused in Phantom, the whole story they put him thru was terrible) But, let’s say for this sake you are right, and he’s “wiser/better” than the others. The next point then is…….
Phantom is with Anakin at 8. Attack of the Clones is Anakin at 18. And Sith is Anakin at roughly 23 or so. That’s 15 years later. Anakin knew Qui Gon for a few days, maybe weeks if we stretch it. He spent 15 years with Obi Wan. I can’t sit back and say that Qui Gon dying is what changed the fate of Anakin.
He’s put under Obi Wan at 8 years old, so to say it starts the moment he is under Obi Wan is a big stretch.

Again, the OG from Ben’s own mouth is “I tried to train Anakin on my own” after telling Luke he needs to go train with Yoda, the Jedi Master that instructed him. Yet somehow Lucas goes to write Ep I, and inserts somebody named Qui Gon into the role. That right there is the problem. He tried to add story, when he didn’t need to. Qui Gon was so important, that Ben never mentions him to Luke, and George kills him in the first film, after he just met Anakin? He’s that instrumental into Anakin’s fate that those things happen? I’m not asking you to agree or disagree with George or his writing, I’m asking you to think of the story logically, from 1977 to 1999. He tried to alter the story that he himself had set up 2 decades earlier, and tried to fill in gaps, so to speak. He should have kept it, simply, Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin. Not insert Qui Gon into the mix, make him seem really important, only his actions say otherwise as he kills him off with ease. When you think about it, Phantom is set up to be so majestic, that he introduced Obi, Anakin, Yoda, Palpatine, Padme, but kills both Maul and Qui Gon immediately. A horrible, horrible decision.

What I liked, from Sith, he only dabbled in, and that was the Council not letting Anakin become a Master. THAT, is EXACTLY what they should have focused on, much earlier. When I’ve talked with you (and everyone else in here) about the prequels, and the problems I have with it story wise, the “suddenness” you’re referring to is midway thru the final film, Anakin Skywalker is STILL GOOD. He’s still a Jedi. He’s in love with his wife. He’s going to be a father. He loves Obi Wan. When they are saying goodbye, he tells Obi Wan he’s sorry, and he’s been impatient, and he’s thankful for him and all that. 20 minutes later, he’s trying to kill him. Look at that man. Just look at it. I hate that that is how it went down. I understand that’s how it had to happen, because George put himself into that box. He wasted too much time earlier. Had he not dealt with that lazy stuff in Phantom, he could have had the entire 3rd film be Anakin’s descent. He could have spent 2-2.5 hours focused on him not being allowed to be a master, on some issue with Obi Wan, not just he had bad dreams and decided to follow Palpatine. It is such a waste of time and storytelling. We should/could have had 3 films on the adult transformation of Anakin. Phantom could have been teenage Anakin and the beginning stuff takes place there, the clone wars stuff in 2, and the complete descent in 3. He was still working on Clone Wars stuff at the start of 3, and still introducing characters. (Grievous) Like, what???

He did the best he could, he closed the story well, the ending was beautiful, he tied several smaller loose ends like Obi Wan grabbing Anakins lightsaber, he did a good job closing it down, but he left sooooooooooo much out there. Yes, I know your point on his story, vs what I wanted, but that’s just it, this all stems from 1977, 1980, and 1983. The story that he had Obi Wan tell, in those films. That Yoda told, in those films. He then tries to adjust 20 years later to fit in some new pieces. I’m asking you, if Qui Gon is so important to the theme, overall story of Anakin, why zero mention in the OG trilogy, and then dead in the first movie of the prequels? Is that not a waste? Darth Maul, absolute terror. Nightmare version of a Sith. Rage for days. A PLAGUE on the universe he was so evil, and so skilled. He killed a single Jedi and died. I mean………. :lol: I want to cry just thinkin about that man. Maul could have been a freaking SAVAGE, for 3 damn films, and ultimately, Anakin could have killed him, and that becomes the step to standing by Palpatines side. Coulda gone a million ways. But just in terms of working with what we were given, how vital are Qui Gon and Maul, really, when they are dead with less than an hour and a half of screen time? (sadly, much much shorter for Maul)

I do like your Jedi fear and mistrust leads Anakin to the darkside. In theory, I like that. I will think on that. But again, screentime, with the clock ticking, and 20-30 minutes left in the film, the final film for all time for all we knew in 2005, he’s still a good guy, a hero, a Jedi. Then he turns. That’s the suddenness that bothers me. Had the entire third film (the third act if you will) been Anakin as a Sith apprentice, then we would have truly had something. That iconic scene, of Vader standing next to the Emperor, arms folded, smile on Palpatine’s face, imagine, just imagine if that was the close to the second film, and not the third. :nerd: Imagine the hype that would have come for #3. Imagine the carnage that they could have delved into in the final film. The story we were told in 1977. But he went back and for some reason changed, for Jar Jar, and podraces, and 8 year olds, etc. Stuff we absolutely did not need to see. He could have given us what his original story was when this all began. That, to me, is where the suddenness comes from. Not the moment Qui Gon dies, and 15 years later Anakin turns to the Darkside. That’s a huge stretch, for a Jedi that Anakin barely knew, when he was then raised and trained by Obi Wan, and somehow decides to try and kill him with a half hour left in the series.

There was some stuff in the Sith book that I wish would have made it to the film. Some dialogue between Palpatine and Anakin that wasn’t in the movie, some real good stuff, but obviously they didn’t have 4 hours to complete the film, so it may have just been added for the book purposes, I don’t know. I haven’t read it in several years, so it’s a little foggy to me now, but it was on some mind bending **** he was great at. Another piece I really, really wish would have been expanded was the Qui Gon/Maul fight with the shields. The way Qui Gon went to his knees and meditated, versus the pacing that Maul did like a damn caged animal. That was such a beautiful way to show Jedi vs Sith idealisms, I wanted that grown and fleshed out so much more. And while I’m sittin here, how do we go from Maul, to 82 year old Dokuu? What kind of **** is that in terms of Sith/Dark Jedi, however you want to classify them? I hated that in terms of adversary. During the era of the Clone Wars/10,000 Jedi strong, I needed some true threats in the Sith, like Palpatine, not a true warrior dead in 20 minutes, and a geriatric that steals the lightning bit we’d already been shown in 1983.

And I mean, “Only a Sith deals in absolutes…..” Is, an absolute. What in the hell man? :lol: :lol:


And before everyone starts gettin excited, I got nothin against NT23, we simply disagree on some things in terms of Lucas and what not, but both of us are all in on the franchise itself, just in different ways. We battle things out, bicker and argue, but I don’t have anything against the man personally or anything like that, I argue with everyone like this. I’m an *** hole, not really a secret or anything. :lol: You guys always tellin me to calm down, or relax, I’m not even goin nuts or anything when we go at it, just me typin up some thoughts on a franchise I’m fairly well versed in. Same as I would do for my Dolphins, or Cubs, or Lakers, etc.

I do think Qui Gon dying is what determinds Anakin's fate.

Anakin was different. Born a slave, no father, and leaves his mother as an 8 year old boy. Him joining the Jedi was very non-traditional. He already had attachments, and resentments, and fear. He needed a master who was non-traditional to keep him from falling to the darkside. Somebody who was willing to do things differently. Qui-Gon was that Jedi. Obi on the other hand, was more of a traditionalist. He did things by the book and that's not what you needed with Anakin. When Obi-Wan tells Luke that he tried to train his father, he says that because Obi-Wan sees himself as failing his duty to train him. Because he did. Ultimately, he's part of the reason Anakin does what he does.

Anakin throughout the PT tells Padme and Palpatine how he's being held back. He tells Padme how Obi-Wan hold him back. And it's true, Obi-Wan does hold him back. He does that because of the fear he has of what would happen if such a strong Jedi fell to the darkside. The Jedi know Anakin has issues, but the way they deal with he situation is basically ignore the issues which cause them to get worse because Anakin is basically just suppressing his anger through Ep. II-III. That's another reason why Anakin turns to Palpatine. Palpatine gave him support that somebody with issues like that needs. He trusted Palpatine, moreso than he did the Jedi I think. Had Qui-Gon been there, Anakin would have turned to him for support and guidance, instead of Palpatine I think.

Also, Anakin wasn't good up until Ep. III. In AOTC when Anakin finds his mother is being tortured he murders all those sand people, including kids. During his killing, who's voice do you happen to hear? Qui-Gons. Anakin constantly tip-toed the line between dark/light. The Jedi's actions, or lackthereof, are a big part of Anakin's fall. The Jedi knew that Anakin's mother was left on Tatootine a slave, and they knew that Anakin has issues because of it. Had he brought up to the council that he was having nightmares about his mother, that he wanted to free her, they would not have allowed it. Anakin blames himself and the Jedi for allowing his mother to die. He resents them, and Obi-Wan but again, it's all just suppressed anger.

Qui-Gon might have been underused and I do agree he was vut he was the most instrumental figure in finding Anakin, and would have been the most instrumental in training Anakin the right way. Obi never understood. When Qui-Gon brings Anakin on board, Obi-Wan tells him, "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life-form?". He didn't get it from the jump. Like I said, Anakin was always a burden to not only Obi, but to the Jedi and their lack of trust fear was made obvious to Anakin, even to his face. They never give him the benefit of the doubt, even when he reveals that Palpatine is the sith they've been after.

The Jedi don't just fail the republic, they fail Anakin. Not only are they responsible for their own demise, but also the rise if Darth Vader. His fall to the darkside isn't sudden and doesn't just happen in Ep. III. It starts the minute Qui-Gon dies, Their mismanagement, mistrust, and fear of who Anakin is, and what he is capable of from the beginning starts a domino effect which ends up at one place. Darth Vader.
 
Here’s my thing on that line of thinking tho. To say Qui Gon is one of the few that “got it”………I mean, it’s the Jedi Order. 10,000 strong. Centuries of beliefs, and traditions. And QUI GON, gets it? The guy that defied the order. The guy that cheated in a random gambling situation with Watto. And in terms of the movie itself, the one that had absolutely nothing worth saying, and was more Jedi in Batman Begins? (he was severely misused in Phantom, the whole story they put him thru was terrible) But, let’s say for this sake you are right, and he’s “wiser/better” than the others. The next point then is…….
Phantom is with Anakin at 8. Attack of the Clones is Anakin at 18. And Sith is Anakin at roughly 23 or so. That’s 15 years later. Anakin knew Qui Gon for a few days, maybe weeks if we stretch it. He spent 15 years with Obi Wan. I can’t sit back and say that Qui Gon dying is what changed the fate of Anakin.
He’s put under Obi Wan at 8 years old, so to say it starts the moment he is under Obi Wan is a big stretch.

Again, the OG from Ben’s own mouth is “I tried to train Anakin on my own” after telling Luke he needs to go train with Yoda, the Jedi Master that instructed him. Yet somehow Lucas goes to write Ep I, and inserts somebody named Qui Gon into the role. That right there is the problem. He tried to add story, when he didn’t need to. Qui Gon was so important, that Ben never mentions him to Luke, and George kills him in the first film, after he just met Anakin? He’s that instrumental into Anakin’s fate that those things happen? I’m not asking you to agree or disagree with George or his writing, I’m asking you to think of the story logically, from 1977 to 1999. He tried to alter the story that he himself had set up 2 decades earlier, and tried to fill in gaps, so to speak. He should have kept it, simply, Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin. Not insert Qui Gon into the mix, make him seem really important, only his actions say otherwise as he kills him off with ease. When you think about it, Phantom is set up to be so majestic, that he introduced Obi, Anakin, Yoda, Palpatine, Padme, but kills both Maul and Qui Gon immediately. A horrible, horrible decision.

What I liked, from Sith, he only dabbled in, and that was the Council not letting Anakin become a Master. THAT, is EXACTLY what they should have focused on, much earlier. When I’ve talked with you (and everyone else in here) about the prequels, and the problems I have with it story wise, the “suddenness” you’re referring to is midway thru the final film, Anakin Skywalker is STILL GOOD. He’s still a Jedi. He’s in love with his wife. He’s going to be a father. He loves Obi Wan. When they are saying goodbye, he tells Obi Wan he’s sorry, and he’s been impatient, and he’s thankful for him and all that. 20 minutes later, he’s trying to kill him. Look at that man. Just look at it. I hate that that is how it went down. I understand that’s how it had to happen, because George put himself into that box. He wasted too much time earlier. Had he not dealt with that lazy stuff in Phantom, he could have had the entire 3rd film be Anakin’s descent. He could have spent 2-2.5 hours focused on him not being allowed to be a master, on some issue with Obi Wan, not just he had bad dreams and decided to follow Palpatine. It is such a waste of time and storytelling. We should/could have had 3 films on the adult transformation of Anakin. Phantom could have been teenage Anakin and the beginning stuff takes place there, the clone wars stuff in 2, and the complete descent in 3. He was still working on Clone Wars stuff at the start of 3, and still introducing characters. (Grievous) Like, what???

He did the best he could, he closed the story well, the ending was beautiful, he tied several smaller loose ends like Obi Wan grabbing Anakins lightsaber, he did a good job closing it down, but he left sooooooooooo much out there. Yes, I know your point on his story, vs what I wanted, but that’s just it, this all stems from 1977, 1980, and 1983. The story that he had Obi Wan tell, in those films. That Yoda told, in those films. He then tries to adjust 20 years later to fit in some new pieces. I’m asking you, if Qui Gon is so important to the theme, overall story of Anakin, why zero mention in the OG trilogy, and then dead in the first movie of the prequels? Is that not a waste? Darth Maul, absolute terror. Nightmare version of a Sith. Rage for days. A PLAGUE on the universe he was so evil, and so skilled. He killed a single Jedi and died. I mean………. :lol: I want to cry just thinkin about that man. Maul could have been a freaking SAVAGE, for 3 damn films, and ultimately, Anakin could have killed him, and that becomes the step to standing by Palpatines side. Coulda gone a million ways. But just in terms of working with what we were given, how vital are Qui Gon and Maul, really, when they are dead with less than an hour and a half of screen time? (sadly, much much shorter for Maul)

I do like your Jedi fear and mistrust leads Anakin to the darkside. In theory, I like that. I will think on that. But again, screentime, with the clock ticking, and 20-30 minutes left in the film, the final film for all time for all we knew in 2005, he’s still a good guy, a hero, a Jedi. Then he turns. That’s the suddenness that bothers me. Had the entire third film (the third act if you will) been Anakin as a Sith apprentice, then we would have truly had something. That iconic scene, of Vader standing next to the Emperor, arms folded, smile on Palpatine’s face, imagine, just imagine if that was the close to the second film, and not the third. :nerd: Imagine the hype that would have come for #3. Imagine the carnage that they could have delved into in the final film. The story we were told in 1977. But he went back and for some reason changed, for Jar Jar, and podraces, and 8 year olds, etc. Stuff we absolutely did not need to see. He could have given us what his original story was when this all began. That, to me, is where the suddenness comes from. Not the moment Qui Gon dies, and 15 years later Anakin turns to the Darkside. That’s a huge stretch, for a Jedi that Anakin barely knew, when he was then raised and trained by Obi Wan, and somehow decides to try and kill him with a half hour left in the series.

There was some stuff in the Sith book that I wish would have made it to the film. Some dialogue between Palpatine and Anakin that wasn’t in the movie, some real good stuff, but obviously they didn’t have 4 hours to complete the film, so it may have just been added for the book purposes, I don’t know. I haven’t read it in several years, so it’s a little foggy to me now, but it was on some mind bending **** he was great at. Another piece I really, really wish would have been expanded was the Qui Gon/Maul fight with the shields. The way Qui Gon went to his knees and meditated, versus the pacing that Maul did like a damn caged animal. That was such a beautiful way to show Jedi vs Sith idealisms, I wanted that grown and fleshed out so much more. And while I’m sittin here, how do we go from Maul, to 82 year old Dokuu? What kind of **** is that in terms of Sith/Dark Jedi, however you want to classify them? I hated that in terms of adversary. During the era of the Clone Wars/10,000 Jedi strong, I needed some true threats in the Sith, like Palpatine, not a true warrior dead in 20 minutes, and a geriatric that steals the lightning bit we’d already been shown in 1983.

And I mean, “Only a Sith deals in absolutes…..” Is, an absolute. What in the hell man? :lol: :lol:


And before everyone starts gettin excited, I got nothin against NT23, we simply disagree on some things in terms of Lucas and what not, but both of us are all in on the franchise itself, just in different ways. We battle things out, bicker and argue, but I don’t have anything against the man personally or anything like that, I argue with everyone like this. I’m an *** hole, not really a secret or anything. :lol: You guys always tellin me to calm down, or relax, I’m not even goin nuts or anything when we go at it, just me typin up some thoughts on a franchise I’m fairly well versed in. Same as I would do for my Dolphins, or Cubs, or Lakers, etc.

Great post. I agree that the prequel trilogy could have been done waaaaay better. One note about Qui Gon is that he was the first one in the New Republic Jedi to do the "become one with the force/ghost thing." That was a technique that was used in the Old Republic and he rediscovered it. They really didn't touch it at all in the movies, but apparently he visited Yoda and taught him, Yoda taught ObiWan etc. It had something to do with Qui Gon philosophy of focusing on the Living Force and Living in the moment. That's on thing that I think he "got" that the other Jedi didn't really focus on. A balance between the unifying force and living force.

These links talk about it a little more. http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0000006/bio & http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_ghost
 
I do think Qui Gon dying is what determinds Anakin's fate.

Anakin was different. Born a slave, no father, and leaves his mother as an 8 year old boy. Him joining the Jedi was very non-traditional. He already had attachments, and resentments, and fear. He needed a master who was non-traditional to keep him from falling to the darkside. Somebody who was willing to do things differently. Qui-Gon was that Jedi. Obi on the other hand, was more of a traditionalist. He did things by the book and that's not what you needed with Anakin. When Obi-Wan tells Luke that he tried to train his father, he says that because Obi-Wan sees himself as failing his duty to train him. Because he did. Ultimately, he's part of the reason Anakin does what he does.

Anakin throughout the PT tells Padme and Palpatine how he's being held back. He tells Padme how Obi-Wan hold him back. And it's true, Obi-Wan does hold him back. He does that because of the fear he has of what would happen if such a strong Jedi fell to the darkside. The Jedi know Anakin has issues, but the way they deal with he situation is basically ignore the issues which cause them to get worse because Anakin is basically just suppressing his anger through Ep. II-III. That's another reason why Anakin turns to Palpatine. Palpatine gave him support that somebody with issues like that needs. He trusted Palpatine, moreso than he did the Jedi I think. Had Qui-Gon been there, Anakin would have turned to him for support and guidance, instead of Palpatine I think.

Also, Anakin wasn't good up until Ep. III. In AOTC when Anakin finds his mother is being tortured he murders all those sand people, including kids. During his killing, who's voice do you happen to hear? Qui-Gons. Anakin constantly tip-toed the line between dark/light. The Jedi's actions, or lackthereof, are a big part of Anakin's fall. The Jedi knew that Anakin's mother was left on Tatootine a slave, and they knew that Anakin has issues because of it. Had he brought up to the council that he was having nightmares about his mother, that he wanted to free her, they would not have allowed it. Anakin blames himself and the Jedi for allowing his mother to die. He resents them, and Obi-Wan but again, it's all just suppressed anger.

Qui-Gon might have been underused and I do agree he was vut he was the most instrumental figure in finding Anakin, and would have been the most instrumental in training Anakin the right way. Obi never understood. When Qui-Gon brings Anakin on board, Obi-Wan tells him, "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life-form?". He didn't get it from the jump. Like I said, Anakin was always a burden to not only Obi, but to the Jedi and their lack of trust fear was made obvious to Anakin, even to his face. They never give him the benefit of the doubt, even when he reveals that Palpatine is the sith they've been after.

The Jedi don't just fail the republic, they fail Anakin. Not only are they responsible for their own demise, but also the rise if Darth Vader. His fall to the darkside isn't sudden and doesn't just happen in Ep. III. It starts the minute Qui-Gon dies, Their mismanagement, mistrust, and fear of who Anakin is, and what he is capable of from the beginning starts a domino effect which ends up at one place. Darth Vader.

Remember tho, Yoda doesn't want Obi Wan to train him, and Obi Wan disobeys and says flat out, I will train the boy. That is doing things sort of outside the norm right three, ESPECIALLY for a goody two shoes like Obi. :lol: I do think it's possible Qui Gon was a better fit to train, possibly, but then it stands to reason, why would Obi fail, when he learned from Qui Gon himself?

And Anakin killing the Sand People isn't a strike against in terms of who he was and who he wasn't. Obviously it was a glimpse of his anger, but he also felt remorse after, and was still cryin about it with Padme. Come Ep III, he's still the hero of the republic, husband, soon to be father, etc. He was still quite good, just with a blemish on his record, so to speak.

The holding him back is from his perspective. HE may have felt he was being held back, but that doesn't mean Obi Wan was scared, or afraid or any of that. Obi may have felt he was training him perfectly, and Anakin just felt he was held back, from his point of view ( :nerd: ) Also, that could be Anakin's power was just way out of range, for even his understanding.

Mace gave him his trust. He said if the rumors were true about Palpatine, he would have his trust in full, and eventually Anakin would be a master. Now, Mace going in with only 3 nondescript Jedi (which, I mean, come on, that's a damn plot hole right there, shadiest damn presence in the galaxy, and you ride up with 3 nobodies and your purple lightsaber? :lol: ) Mace shoulda pushed pause on that war and brought 10K Jedi back to the house to dance with Sidious. I mean, the 3 dead nobodies were out in 7 seconds. :lol: :smh:

Come to think of it, Mace himself wasn't an ordinary Jedi leader, he was going to kill Sidious right then, right there. For the safety of the galaxy. Completely against Jedi beliefs. But he was going to do it.

I liked the majority of the Palpatine/Anakin work. Most of that was handled well. My only "gripe" was not enough of it. (meaning, should have started sooner, over the course of multiple films, not just the final act) But overall, I was happy with what he was able to squeeze in there. Like I said tho, there was some extra dialogue in the novel version of the film, and even that would have helped the cause. I really need to find those quotes.
 
^^^ Lol at the 3 nobodies. It was 4, so cut Mace slack for brining one more :lol:

Question, during that fight scene Mace blocks Palpatine w the saber. Did that cause his face to age or disfigure? If it did, then why didnt Lukes face change, or even Maces for the brief secs he was shocked.
 
^^^ Lol at the 3 nobodies. It was 4, so cut Mace slack for brining one more :lol:

Question, during that fight scene Mace blocks Palpatine w the saber. Did that cause his face to age or disfigure? If it did, then why didnt Lukes face change, or even Maces for the brief secs he was shocked.

My guess is Luke was moreso all over his body. From further distance too.

Mace was in Sidious's face, and reflecting that **** right back literally into his face. That's the way I took it at least for why his face did that.

I also kind of think Palpatine did that on purpose as well, as he used it in his speech, the Jedi leaving him disfigured, but undeterred.


My bad tho, he brought 4 nobodies, to die in 7 seconds. :lol:
 
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