LEBRON, THE DISAPPOINTMENT?

Will Lebron be considered the best of all time?

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Mister Friendly said:
I don't know what race has to do with?

Are you saying that Black people hold him in a super high regard?
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yeah, i was irritated by that statement too.
You can find michael jordan fans through all countries as long nba matches have been aired.
michael jordan made even non-basketball fans watching him playing.
Anyway, back to the topic.
i think the lebron bashing/hating is unfair.
i dont like him but i respect him as an outstanding basketball player. What i want to say is: only because you dislike someone or something, it does not mean that the person or the thing has to be bad.
 
Osh Kosh Bosh said:
Mister Friendly said:
Your list is basically your favorite players of all time

If you're going to say guys like Lebron and maybe Shaq and Oscar have plausible case for goat you know damn well you have to put Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Dr.J on the list too

I say the only guys who are really in the goat discussion are Jordan, Wilt, Kareem and Russell
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No I don't.


I shouldn't have to explain this,I'm not talking about "career" or "legacy" simple we was the best, if you look at their peak performance, the numbers in relation to their peers at the time they played the statistical gaps are big enough where they cannot be explained away by intangible nonsenses.

But the gap between, Dr. J and Lebron/Bird is obvious and clear, look it up.
The gap between Kobe and Michael is obvious and clear, look it up.
Same for Duncan/Hakeem and the historically great centers.

so on and so forth.
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There isn't a obvious and clear gap statistically between pime Dr.J vs Bird/Lebron

All 3 of those guys in their prime vary around 25-28 PPG, 7-9 RPG, 4-7 APG type guys who shoot over 50 pct
 
Mister Friendly said:
There isn't a obvious and clear gap statistically between pime Dr.J vs Bird/Lebron

All 3 of those guys in their prime vary around 25-28 PPG, 7-9 RPG, 4-7 APG type guys who shoot over 50 pct
Click to expand...

I don't really want to get into the details but the fact is he played a significant portion his prime in a weaker ABA so no you can't really.

not to mention he only led the league in per/win shares once.
 
Osh Kosh Bosh said:
Mister Friendly said:
There isn't a obvious and clear gap statistically between pime Dr.J vs Bird/Lebron
Click to expand...

I don't really want to get into the details but the fact is he played a significant portion his prime in a weaker ABA so no you can't really.

not to mention he only led the league in per/win shares once.
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I'm not even factoring in Dr. J's ABA stats because they are borderline Jordan level stats against 'inferior" competition

Also I figured you might be talking about the PER angle but if you want to go that angle

You're going to have to omit Magic and Russell from the goat equation because they never came close leading the league in PER

Then you're going to have add players like Garnett,Robinson, Moses Malone, West,,Pettit and Mikan to equation because they led the NBA in PER for multiple seasons

Those guys were historically statistically great ? So where do you draw the line

I think that's why you can really only say Jordan, Wilt, Russell and Kareem could be considered for the goat for various reasons

Jordan because he's the greatest recent player

Wilt because he was the most dominant player in any era of the NBA

Russell because he was the greatest winner in NBA history

Kareem because he had the most longevity of any player in NBA history
 
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Mister Friendly said:
I'm not even factoring in Dr. J's ABA stats because they are borderline Jordan level stats against 'inferior" competition

Also I figured you might be talking about the PER angle but if you want to go that angle

You're going to have to omit Magic and Russell from the goat equation because they never came close leading the league in PER

Then you're going to have add players like Garnett,Robinson, Moses Malone, West,,Pettit and Mikan to equation because they led the NBA in PER for multiple seasons

Those guys were historically statistically great ? So where do you draw the line

I think that's why you can really only say Jordan, Wilt, Russell and Kareem could be considered for the goat for various reasons

Jordan because he's the greatest recent player

Wilt because he was the most dominant player in any era of the NBA

Russell because he was the greatest winner in NBA history

Kareem because he had the most longevity of any player in NBA history
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the main blind spots of PER are the true value of elite passers/the stetch effect of elite shooters/ and the impact of rim protection and big man defense.

you can argue quite plausibly that PER doesn't capture the full value of Bird (generational shooting talent+all time passer) Magic (generational passing talent), Bill Russell (the greatest defensive player in the history of the league) but DR J who was a good passer,a non shooter great perimeter defender but I don't think his value is being depress by the box score stats.


edit

but ultimately this always becomes about splinting hairs so honestly never mind.

I don't think there is a big difference between Lebron/Jordan ect i've read all there is to read about basketball and the all time greats so in reality is nothing you are going to say to me is going to change my mind about this so it's kind of pointless.

If I put any of those 7 players I named and they each had a team of league average NBA rotation players, I think its a coin flip playoff series, thats just me.
 
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Osh Kosh Bosh said:

the main blind spots of PER are the true value of elite passers/the stetch effect of elite shooters/ and the impact of rim protection and big man defense.

you can argue quite plausibly that PER doesn't capture the full value of Bird (generational shooting talent+all time passer) Magic (generational passing talent), Bill Russell (the greatest defensive player in the history of the league) but DR J who was a good passer,a non shooter great perimeter defender but I don't think his value is being depress by the box score stats.


edit

but ultimately this always becomes about splinting hairs so honestly never mind.

I don't think there is a big difference between Lebron/Jordan ect i've read all there is to read about basketball and the all time greats so in reality is nothing you are going to say to me is going to change my mind about this so it's kind of pointless.

If I put any of those 7 players I named and they each had a team of league average NBA rotation players, I think its a coin flip playoff series, thats just me.
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Magic was a generational passing talent but so was John Stockton

I'm not totally sold that Russell was the greatest defensive player of all time, I think he was the centerpiece of an all time great statistical defense. Have you seen how whole 1960's Celtic lead the 1960's defensive win share list?

Theres a big difference in stats and wins between Jordan and Lebron

If you put those 7 players on a team with a league average NBA rotation players, the favorited team by far would be the team with Wilt or Kareem
 
It's so hard to pinpoint one individual player as "The Greatest of All Time"

Your asking one to cross decades, generations, and everything that comes with living and playing the sport in that particular time period. Quite simply, it's impossibly hard to say Michael Jordan was better than Russell when Russ came of age in a totally different time period than Jordan, or Shaquille did. Michael Jordan never played against a wing the likes of Lebron James. The top wings of today completely trump the good 2 and 3's that Jordan had to go up against. That being said, it can be argued that neither Lebron, or Kobe, or Duncan never faced the full court pressure defense of the early 90's from the bulls, or the bad boys pistons and their defense.

Those are just a few examples of how hard it can be to cross compare players that span decades, years, and generations. So many variables come into play when determining who's "The Best Player of All Time." I mean yeah you can say Michael Jordan was, but who's to say that if Bill Russell played in Jordan's time that he wouldn't be as dominant on the defensive side of the ball as he was during his time? Or if the freak of nature that is Kevin Durant comes along during the 90's that we wouldn't be revering him as we do Michael?

That's why i'm coming back around to the idea that there is no such thing as "the greatest basketball player of all time." The best basketball player of his generation, the best ball player of the decade(s), those labels to me mean more and can more easily be identified. They are stil hard to pinpoint, but it's much more concrete and gives a much more secure form of identify as far as what the league looked like during that time period. Everyone is going to look at the NBA from 2000-2010 and remember it for Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, and Lebron. Those are the only four that can be talked about. That's what I mean by it's more concrete. It's about as close to greatest of all time that you'll get. From there, if you wan't to go off and say that certain players are the best of all time then that's great, but it's so inaccurate and doesn't take into account for time period, technological advances, and the overall evolution of the sport.
 
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How can you definitely call Michael Jordan the greatest of all time? He never went up against Prime Kobe, Prime Lebron, Prime Kevin Durant. All guys who would have easily been his rivals had they played during Jordan's time. Conversely, Prime Lebron never faced the bad boy pistons, the bulls dynasty, or the Knicks of the 90's.

Sports fans, thanks in large part to the social media boom, have become so infatuated with "legacies" and historical placement of athletes that they don't even appreciate what's happening in the moment. It wasn't about The Spurs or Heat winning the 2014 NBA championship, it was "Oh if Duncan gets this he's the best player since Jordan!" "If Lebron gets this he'll 3 peat like Kobe and Jordan did. He's on his way to being the greatest ever!" and I get it..I mean, I guess that's fun for the fan but to me it just takes away from what's happening right now because your so enamored with how their performance will effect their standing in history and it's stupid because it's not like there's ever going to be a definitive answer anyway.

I mean you have guys who love Kobe and Jordan so much that rather than watching to see great basketball they're rooting for Lebron to fail just to say "I told you so!" The obsession with legacies and rankings in sports is doing more harm than good from the actual players, all the way down to the fans. Perhaps we see Lebron try to win it all with the Cavs in an era that isn't so focused on "rings" and placement in history. I mean we live in a generation that has completely lost feeling for how rare it is to actually win a ring and be successful in the playoffs. Everything is so black and white. You're either a winner or a loser and since you lost, up you can't be the greatest of all time. It's truly silly..remarkable even...but more silly than remarkable.
 
Jordan dominated his era unlike any player since Wilt but he also won at an level unmatched by any great player since Russell
 
Mister Friendly said:
Jordan dominated his era unlike any player since Wilt but he also won at an level unmatched by any great player since Russell
Click to expand...

Which sounds like he would be definitively the greatest player of his era. He didn't go up against Wilt. Wilt nor Russell never had their chance to play in the 90's and get their shot at it. Jordan never played in the 60's and 70's.
 
shoeking2101 said:
How can you definitely call Michael Jordan the greatest of all time? He never went up against Prime Kobe, Prime Lebron, Prime Kevin Durant. All guys who would have easily been his rivals had they played during Jordan's time. Conversely, Prime Lebron never faced the bad boy pistons, the bulls dynasty, or the Knicks of the 90's.

Sports fans, thanks in large part to the social media boom, have become so infatuated with "legacies" and historical placement of athletes that they don't even appreciate what's happening in the moment. It wasn't about The Spurs or Heat winning the 2014 NBA championship, it was "Oh if Duncan gets this he's the best player since Jordan!" "If Lebron gets this he'll 3 peat like Kobe and Jordan did. He's on his way to being the greatest ever!" and I get it..I mean, I guess that's fun for the fan but to me it just takes away from what's happening right now because your so enamored with how their performance will effect their standing in history and it's stupid because it's not like there's ever going to be a definitive answer anyway.

I mean you have guys who love Kobe and Jordan so much that rather than watching to see great basketball they're rooting for Lebron to fail just to say "I told you so!" The obsession with legacies and rankings in sports is doing more harm than good from the actual players, all the way down to the fans. Perhaps we see Lebron try to win it all with the Cavs in an era that isn't so focused on "rings" and placement in history. I mean we live in a generation that has completely lost feeling for how rare it is to actually win a ring and be successful in the playoffs. Everything is so black and white. You're either a winner or a loser and since you lost, up you can't be the greatest of all time. It's truly silly..remarkable even...but more silly than remarkable.
Click to expand...
Watch some old Jordan games... its not even bout being infatuated with his legacy. The man was just playing at a level that was out of this world. That era had much more passion and physicality too. 

Personally, I don't like Lebron or Kobe because I cant get over their pre madonna days. But objectively speaking, from a basketball standpoint, Kobe and Lebron don't even come close to holding Jordan's jockstrap. That's nothing to be embarrassed about though, and quite frankly its unfair to both of them to be compared to Jordans ghost and stats. Even though I don't like them, I personally am glad there are superstars like Kobe and Lebron that are in the league because of their dominant skill sets
 
Moonshoes08 said:
Watch some old Jordan games... its not even bout being infatuated with his legacy. The man was just playing at a level that was out of this world. That era had much more passion and physicality too. 

Personally, I don't like Lebron or Kobe because I cant get over their pre madonna days. But objectively speaking, from a basketball standpoint, Kobe and Lebron don't even come close to holding Jordan's jockstrap. That's nothing to be embarrassed about though, and quite frankly its unfair to both of them to be compared to Jordans ghost and stats. Even though I don't like them, I personally am glad there are superstars like Kobe and Lebron that are in the league because of their dominant skill sets
Click to expand...

I don't think you get the point. Obviously, Jordan was a straight up superior basketball player. I've watched more than enough film to come away with that. That's not the point i'm making. I mean if we're looking at tape, there's no way Lebron doesn't win minimum 10 rings if he plays in Bill Russell's era right? It isn't that simple to me.

The point i'm making is, to single out Jordan as saying he's the "greatest ever" to me is a slight to players that came before him, and disrespects their ability to adapt and play during Jordan's time. Who's to say that Jordan is as successful if Russell Or Wilt are playing during the 90's? And if they were playing in the 90's, they would come equipped with what it means to come of age in the late 80's like Jordan did. To single out Jordan is also a slight to the guys playing today. KD, Lebron, Kobe, TD, being the greats that they are already, would have for sure been a serious threat to Jordan winning in the 90's. Who's to say Jordan would have been as "dominant" in a league where guys as great as Kevin Durant are aren't even considered the best player in the league?

The point is that circumstance, generations, decades, are in my opinion to big of obstacles to overcome in trying to crown someone as the greatest players of all time.
 
shoeking2101 said:
Mister Friendly said:
Jordan dominated his era unlike any player since Wilt but he also won at an level unmatched by any great player since Russell
Click to expand...

Which sounds like he would be definitively the greatest player of his era. He didn't go up against Wilt. Wilt nor Russell never had their chance to play in the 90's and get their shot at it. Jordan never played in the 60's and 70's.
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I'm judging them in the eras they played in

Jordan dominated his era, individually and in championships

Wilt dominated his era but didn't win a bunch of championship mainly because he faced Russell's stacked Celtic teams.

Russell didn't dominate his era as an individual

Only Jordan has individual and championship success that's the difference
 
Mister Friendly said:
I'm judging them in the eras they played in

Jordan dominated his era, individually and in championships

Wilt dominated his era but didn't win a bunch of championship mainly because he faced Russell's stacked Celtic teams.

Russell didn't dominate his era as an individual

Only Jordan has individual and championship success that's the difference
Click to expand...

So you're putting Jordan over Russell and Wilt because he dominated his era better than them two. I get that. And I agree, somewhat. However, I dont agree with the notion that Jordan is better than Russell and Wilt just because he dominated his era better than they did. To me, all that means is...he dominated his era better. That doesn't mean Jordan is better to me. In my opinion, it's incredibly hard to sit up here and say Jordan is flat out better because to do that would mean one would have to evaluate eras, and that's where it gets tricky.
 
Moonshoes08 said:
 
Watch some old Jordan games... its not even bout being infatuated with his legacy. The man was just playing at a level that was out of this world. That era had much more passion and physicality too. 

Personally, I don't like Lebron or Kobe because I cant get over their pre madonna days. But objectively speaking, from a basketball standpoint, Kobe and Lebron don't even come close to holding Jordan's jockstrap. That's nothing to be embarrassed about though, and quite frankly its unfair to both of them to be compared to Jordans ghost and stats. Even though I don't like them, I personally am glad there are superstars like Kobe and Lebron that are in the league because of their dominant skill sets
Click to expand...
@Moonshoes08

Your nostalgia for 90s basketball is clouding your logic. The numbers don't lie. Here's an ESPN Insider Analysis:

"But overall, in fact, scoring was much easier for most of the 1990s, including Jordan's heyday. (And it was even easier in the 1980s.) Not only was the game played faster, a clear sign that there was relatively little resistance as players went up and down the court and to the basket, but teams also scored a lot more per possession. For instance, in 1992-93, known for a rough-and-tumble series between the Knicks and the Bulls, scoring was at 108.0 points per 100 possessions. This year, it's down to 105.8, which is actually an increase from last season. Think about that -- when the team had the ball in the 1990s, it scored more than it does now.

That's despite the following: Offensive strategy has evolved in the mathematically correct direction, which is to shoot more 3s and space the floor better. Of course, that's in part because players are more afraid to enter the lane -- watch a Clippers game for the number of times Chris Paul shies away from going to the rim because he knows he'll get hit. He has admitted as much, despite being one of the toughest, most physical point guards we've ever seen. But defenses are so fast, physical and prepared that, even with much improved outside shooting in the game these days (the 3-point percentage across the league is 35.9, as opposed to 32.0 percent in Jordan's first championship season), scoring is down. In the 1990s, teams shot a much higher percentage from the field than they do now, and a higher percentage on 2-point baskets. If players were getting banged on every play, why was it so much easier for the skinnier players of that decade to score? Why was it so much easier then to get to the bucket and score on 2-point shots? And, if they were better shooters then, why is 3-point shooting better now? So, just to be clear: The case some people are making is that less effective defense was also more physical. Can that be?

This is where someone suggests that the heightened physical play is obvious if you merely watch those old games. I would respond that you indeed should go back and watch. What you'll find in those '90s "slugfests" might shock you. Yep, there are some hard fouls (just as there are today). But defensive communication is often weak; screens are dealt with poorly; and double-teams result in wide-open shots. For an example, witness Penny Hardaway knifing through the Bulls in the 1996 playoffs. Skinny Penny does it with undeniable skill, but he also gets to the rim with ridiculous ease. Keep in mind, these are the 72-win Bulls we're talking about, the greatest team to ever play -- the team with the No. 1 defense in the league that season. Just imagine how easy it was to score on the Celtics that year as they were giving up 107.0 points per game, or the Vancouver Grizzlies, with Big Country Reeves manning the middle. Weakside defense was, indeed, weak. Those Chicago Bulls teams were fantastic defenders. But they weren't especially physical. And neither was the era -- it was merely an era we say we like better, an era we increasingly mythologize the further we get from it. To extol the rugged virtues of the Jordan epoch often seems like a way to knock today's players, for whatever reasons. But it is analysis, or storytelling? Athletes get bigger, faster and stronger with each passing year. Defenses would still rather hit an opponent than cede a dunk. LeBron is complaining about getting clobbered because it's actually happening. David Lee bloodied Dwight Howard's mouth Monday with an elbow without getting called for it -- it was so ordinary it barely happened. This is what exists in the game today. Overall, modern basketball is almost certainly as physical, and probably a lot more physical, than it was in Jordan's day. Perhaps it's our collective memory that has gone a little soft and weak."

The key distinction for me is that there is definitely a difference between most talented/skilled and most accomplished. Would MJ dominate in today's era? Conversely, would LeBron and Durant drop 30 PER seasons in the 90s? Obviously, both are hypothetical but we're talking about 3 of the greatest talents the league has ever seen.

International play is significantly improved (see this year's championship roster), the skill set for big men has expanded, the level of athleticism at the point guard position is STAGGERING (can you imagine Russ or DRose in the 90s...and that era thought Kevin Johnson was explosive!). Just look at the players who DIDN'T make an All NBA Team this year: Russell, Duncan, Anthony Davis, Al Jefferson, etc.

Do we have a prime Shaq or Hakeem in this era? No one is saying that. But did the 90s have a Durant or LeBron or even a Westbrook? I don't see anyone saying that either.

Like someone mentioned earlier, legacies are overblown. Throw Peyton Manning on any team in the 80s and they're a title contender. He's that good. There are just certain athletes and players whose talents, as far as we know, transcend eras. The farther back you go, the trickier it gets (e.g. Bill Russell was skinnier than LeBron, could he really play C in this era?). 

We like to mythologize the past, I get it...but let's just appreciate who came before, who plays now, and who's surely coming after. It's just the way life is. I'm just glad we have YouTube and HD video to document the current era, YouTubed some Nets Jason Kidd footage (ridiculous) but I'm done with the grainy stuff lol.

And a note for everyone saying 90s basketball > life, review some of those Finals rosters in the 90s or even better...pull up some game footage on YouTube (there's tons of full length games). Some of the team defense I saw would've made 2014 Wade proud. 
 
shoeking2101 said:
So you're putting Jordan over Russell and Wilt because he dominated his era better than them two. I get that. And I agree, somewhat. However, I dont agree with the notion that Jordan is better than Russell and Wilt just because he dominated his era better than they did. To me, all that means is...he dominated his era better. That doesn't mean Jordan is better to me. In my opinion, it's incredibly hard to sit up here and say Jordan is flat out better because to do that would mean one would have to evaluate eras, and that's where it gets tricky.
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Rep and +1. I think the point you're making is profound: players shouldn't be better because they dominated an era better than another player.

The obvious way to downplay or explain a player's successes/failures is to discuss how strong that era was and we haven't even started talking about supporting casts, coaching, other factors.

I think we can all agree that it's not black and white.

But then again maybe I'm crazy. I've been saying talent wise Peyton > Montana for years now and I still get hit with the rings argument. Smfh
 
shoeking2101 said:
Mister Friendly said:
I'm judging them in the eras they played in

Jordan dominated his era, individually and in championships

Wilt dominated his era but didn't win a bunch of championship mainly because he faced Russell's stacked Celtic teams.

Russell didn't dominate his era as an individual

Only Jordan has individual and championship success that's the difference
Click to expand...

So you're putting Jordan over Russell and Wilt because he dominated his era better than them two. I get that. And I agree, somewhat. However, I dont agree with the notion that Jordan is better than Russell and Wilt just because he dominated his era better than they did. To me, all that means is...he dominated his era better. That doesn't mean Jordan is better to me. In my opinion, it's incredibly hard to sit up here and say Jordan is flat out better because to do that would mean one would have to evaluate eras, and that's where it gets tricky.
Click to expand...

How else can you compare players?

What are we supposed to say...." everybody is great" ?

The whole essence of sports is competition, seeing who is better than who
 
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Mister Friendly said:
How else can you compare players?

What are we supposed to say...." everybody is great" ?

The whole essence of sports is competition, seeing who is better than who
Click to expand...

Thats my point. You aren't going to get any definitive answers trying to debate who's the best EVER. Its literally a debate that goes around in circles usually with nothing to show for it.

thats why to me, debating about who's the best player of a certain era, decade, or maybe even generation is more fun to do. Allows for more concrete, realistic conversation.
 
Shoeking my guy but its really no debate imo. MJ is the greatest to ever do it and it's by a pretty nice margin...and I'm a kobe stan
 
GalaxyNexus said:
Rep and +1. I think the point you're making is profound: players shouldn't be better because they dominated an era better than another player.

The obvious way to downplay or explain a player's successes/failures is to discuss how strong that era was and we haven't even started talking about supporting casts, coaching, other factors.

I think we can all agree that it's not black and white.

But then again maybe I'm crazy. I've been saying talent wise Peyton > Montana for years now and I still get hit with the rings argument. Smfh
Click to expand...

Exactly. Trying to compare players that span literally from the 60's to today is not only exhausting, but it promotes a black and white ideal behind crowning a best player ever when its not even close to that. There are no stats, no numbers to date, that can account for how successful players would be in certain eras and that right there is why I personally can't, with any sort of precision, identify a greatest player ever.
 
RoOk said:
Shoeking my guy but its really no debate imo. MJ is the greatest to ever do it and it's by a pretty nice margin...and I'm a kobe stan
Click to expand...

if I had to pick a player to be the greatest ever then yeah I would pick Jordan. But who's to say that if Russ or Wilt or Lebron, who's to say that if those guys played in the 90's that we wouldnt be looking at them in the same fashion?

To definitively label jordan as the goat just doesn't account for those things and doesnt take into account how great a Lebron is for his era, or how great wilt or russ was for his era. Truth be told Jordan was absolutely the best in his era but to cross compare generations gets tricky with me.
 
This debate will go on forever or until some godly talent comes through and just shatters MJ records and whatnot, but my argument has always been that Jordan IMPACT on the game of basketball is why he's the greatest in any era. You have the Wilts..the magic..the russells...etc. All of them are worthy of being in the argument, but what seperates MJ was the way he literally made the NBA into what it is today. His popularity, his leadership, his entire body of work on the court..its untouchable.

And if we're talking soley talent wise, it's still MJ but i would def put up kobe and magic as 2a and 2b.

But you bring up strong points and opinions. I dont disagree with you, because its your own belief. Just to make things clear
 
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