NFL Quarterbacks Discussion thread: 2013 Edition

[deuce king]

Just go to back and revisit history with this old statement above CP1708, it's funny you wanna talk about Tom being one miracle play away form 4 rings, an undefeated season......yadda yadda yadda, but I'm almost sure you DON'T want to acknowledge that he had a miracle play go his way or in his favor to even begin his so called GOAT career with that tuck rule game against Oakland years prior. If you ever watched The Wire champ, you already know where I'm going with this one.........."You want it one way.........but it's the OTHER way"

Yeah, see you think you have me pegged, only you don't. I'm fine if you want to say Brady was one play away from one less SB. Bothers me none.

The guy has been to 5 Super Bowls. Want to reduce it by 1? Go right ahead.

Still more SB wins than Peyton.
Still more appearances than Peyton.
Still a lesser roster of weapons than Peyton
Still more head to head wins vs Peyton
Still more playoff wins than Peyton
Still a better win % than Peyton


So by all means. If it means that much to you, pull the tuck rule game off his resume, cool by me.

I mean, the Giants won like 3 plays after the Tyree catch. The Raiders had an entire series still to finish the game, couldn't do it. Went to OT, still couldn't finish the game. But hey, one play.

Almost the exact same scenario, but not close.

I find your argumentative points to be all over the place, but that's fine.  All those points or facts about Brady vs. Peyton are correct, however the one main point that you didn't mention or failed to mention is that Brady has had a HOF coach by his side through all of that. 

I say that because you were quick to mention that Brady had "a lesser roster of weapons than Peyton", and while that may be true let's not act like Brady hasn't had the luxury of having a mastermind calling the shots and pulling the strings on the sidelines his entire career.  Let's just take that into account as well, that same mastermind that in a way helped Brady to achieve some of those very points that you were quick to throw against Peyton for not doing or not accomplishing. 

As far as the Raiders having an entire series to finish the game, had the refs called that game and specific play correctly, the Raiders wouldn't have needed an extra series and the game would not have gone into OT from the get go. 

 

[CP1708]

Like you CP, I really don't want to get into an in-depth argument.  Basically what it really comes down to, is what you value more when you are trying to determine if player A is better than player B.  Do you value personal stats, personal awards and accolades, or do you value team success. 

When discussing individual players, I value individual stats, awards and accolades over team success.  You value team success.  You aren't wrong.  Nor am I.  Just a difference of opinion.

I'm not valuing team success at all tho. Just because I use wins, or SB's, etc, that doesn't mean those are what make A v B right or wrong.

It's a complete picture of things.

Brady with less talent, still great numbers, with wins.
Manning with more talent, great numbers, less wins.

Switch it.

Brady with more talent, great numbers, less wins
Manning with less talent, great numbers, more wins.


I'm not adjusting for wins only, I'm looking at the talent surrounding.

Want more?

Peyton played the same system his whole life. 4 year college starter, Day 1 starter in the NFL, Marvin, Edge, Wayne, Clark for almost a full decade. A full on system that Peyton just sat around and thrived in.

Tom, didn't start 4 years in college, didn't start day one in the NFL, and his system has changed MULTIPLE times.

Look man, he played a Super Bowl with Troy Brown and some other scrubs.
He played in a Super Bowl with Randy Moss and Wes Welker
He played in a Super Bowl with Gronk and Leatherface.

They have COMPLETELY revamped the offense around Brady multiple times. He's won every, single, way. He gets numbers one way or another. He throws short. He throws deep. He hits the slot. He hits the seam. He uses his running backs, little white guys, whatever. Danny Woodhead looks good. Transformed Welker's career. Revitalized Randy's. Made the 2 TE look the biggest vogue look in the new NFL.

He's adapted to EVERY detail throw his way.

Peyton goes to Denver, they install HIS offense. Peyton has played ONE offense since college. He's great at it, he's the computer chip hub of it. But that's it.

Brady has played slow it down, grind it out, kill the clock, and he's played no huddle, 23 consecutive pass plays go go go go go offense.

One was born a QB, QB dad, QB brother, flat out QB, yet only runs a single system.
The other was a joke of a draft pick, looked like a school teacher in shorts at the combine, and has played the position various different ways, and succeeded in them all.

Not about wins and losses man. Brady has done more with less than Peyton has. Give Brady a decade of Marvin, Edge, Wayne, Clark and I shudder to think what he would do. Down right scary.

 

[CP1708]

Man, get all the way outta here.

Joe had Bill Walsh
Dan had Don Shula
Tom has Bill
Peyton had Dungy

If I remember right (and I do) Bill had done NOTHING before Tom, and that was with thee #1 pick in the draft Drew Bledsoe at his disposal pre Tom.

Look at you tell me my argument is all over, so you keep switching from one area to another to try and find an angle to make Tom look worse. You've used Kickers, refs, now coaches, next you'll tell me he had a better Oline than the Colts, etc etc etc.

Let it go man. You aren't going to win. Peyton has the bettter numbers, that's where it ends. Nothing else backs Peyton. Just let it go.

 

[Chester McFloppy]

Dan Marino is my favorite QB of all time and I'm a Niners fan. Try explaining that to your friends.

Arguing over QBs is fun, but in the end, people will believe what they want to believe. Some people look at individual accolades over team accolades, others look at the W-L column, percentages, etc. Defenses can sometimes carry a bad QB deep into the playoffs (hello, Mark Sanchez), while a good QB can completely change the complexity of a team (hello, Andrew Luck). It's impossible to say Player A is 'better' than Player B when they don't even PLAY one another. It works in the NBA -- you can have a Deron Williams vs. CP3 matchup and say "Damn, CP3 got the better of Deron tonight." QBs don't play defense, so they have ZERO CONTROL over what happens when the other offense is in the game. If anything, certain coaches pick up on a QB and exploit it -- Belichick has figured Peyton out, just like Harbaugh plays Tom better than anyone in the league.

Football is the ultimate team sport, and unless you have a complete team, a great coach, get hot, or have a little luck on your side... you can't win games, let alone championships. There are times when everything does indeed fall on a QB (inexcusable picks), but a dropped pass or a once-in-a-lifetime helmet catch changes EVERYTHING.

 

[S4L]

Houston_Texans_Super_Bowl.gif

Classic.

 

[DeadsetAce]

Dan Marino is my favorite QB of all time and I'm a Niners fan.

no wonder you and CP are a match made in heaven



your full post was solid though. repped.

 

[dland24]

Dan Marino is my favorite QB of all time and I'm a Niners fan. Try explaining that to your friends.

Arguing over QBs is fun, but in the end, people will believe what they want to believe. Some people look at individual accolades over team accolades, others look at the W-L column, percentages, etc. Defenses can sometimes carry a bad QB deep into the playoffs (hello, Mark Sanchez), while a good QB can completely change the complexity of a team (hello, Andrew Luck). It's impossible to say Player A is 'better' than Player B when they don't even PLAY one another. It works in the NBA -- you can have a Deron Williams vs. CP3 matchup and say "Damn, CP3 got the better of Deron tonight." QBs don't play defense, so they have ZERO CONTROL over what happens when the other offense is in the game. If anything, certain coaches pick up on a QB and exploit it -- Belichick has figured Peyton out, just like Harbaugh plays Tom better than anyone in the league.

Football is the ultimate team sport, and unless you have a complete team, a great coach, get hot, or have a little luck on your side... you can't win games, let alone championships. There are times when everything does indeed fall on a QB (inexcusable picks), but a dropped pass or a once-in-a-lifetime helmet catch changes EVERYTHING.

Stated much more articulately than I attempted to a few posts before.  Repped.

 

[CP1708]

Bill also had Dan's # when he was a defensive coordinator under Parcells.

I did a bunch of homework over the summer for some articles I was writing and I was trying to find out just how we wasted 15 years of Dan Marino. (prime, not the end where his fastball was a change up and he started missing games with random injuries)

I found the pattern. After landing Dan in the first round, easily the greatest value pick ever made in Miami history, Shula did NOTHING in the draft outside of getting decent OLineman.

RB in 85, didn't last more than a couple years.
No 1st in 86.
DE in 87, lasted 3 years
DE AGAIN in 88, last 3 years
RB in 89, lasted 3 years (seein the pattern folks?)
OT in 90, best pick made post Dan.
WR in 91, traded after a single game (the ****???!!?!?!?)
DE and CB in 92, decent players, helped, but Dan already past 31 by this time.
WR in 93, OJ McDuffie, possibly the best pick Shula made after Webb in 1990.
DT in 94, wasted until Jimmy got there, then he got useful.
OT in 95, guy lasted 1-2 years in Miami


Those are the FIRST round picks for the Dolphins in the Marino/Shula era. They make me want to ************* kill somebody.

Still not convinced? Watch this.

One of those crap, garbage DE's they took in the late 80's? They took that waste of space over one Thurman Thomas. Who landed in our own God damn division, and spent the next decade ruining our lives. Jim Kelly had Thomas, Reed, Lofton, Bruce Smith, Bennet, all kinds of talent to go out and beat Dan, while we wasted pick, after pick, after pick on nothing.

**** makes me sick lookin at it. Even mediocre drafts would have been enough with a QB like Dan, and receivers like Clayton and Duper. Shula couldn't even do that. He drafted the same positions every year!!!!!! RB, DE, OT, and WR for a decade. And what were the weak points of Miami during those times? Running game, and defense.

Jimmy came in at the end of Dan's career, and in 3 drafts he produced Zach Thomas, Jason Taylor, Sam Madison, Patrick Surtain, and Daryl Gardener. (who paired with Bowens and made them both DOMINANT) Damn near a pro bowler at every spot of the defense, by then Dan was done and it was over. Put that D our there when Dan was 32 and we would have had something.


(Sorry to talk Dan, but I rarely ever do in here, I try to keep it on the current QB crops)

 

[651akathepaul]

(Sorry to talk Dan, but I rarely ever do in here, I try to keep it on the current QB crops)

Nah. I enjoy this. I can tell you put a lot of time and research into this and it's very enlightening as a result. That's always a plus.

 

[CP1708]

Naw, it's all in my spreadsheets, took me like 4 minutes to type all that ****.

 

[651akathepaul]

But to get to that point I mean.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Eh, post season success aside, even if you wanna go regular season numbers/success Brady either wins or is right on par with Manning. Manning has played 49 more games than Brady. In 3 seasons worth of football Brady I think Brady could get pretty close to 15k yards, somewhere within 2k, and would probably throw more than 100 touchdowns. And I dont see him throwing 86 interceptions in 3 seasons though. Going by trends of his entire career he would throw 40 at most. Regular season or post season, it just doesnt matter. Brady has Manning beat, there is literally not a single argument for Manning if you ignore who you like more.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Mannings barking audibles and hot routes at the line is cool and all but didnt a patriot wideout say the Patriots offense was based off everyone reading Bradys mind and vice versa by the way he looked at you? Thought i remember hearing this and if true thats just as awesome and impressive as what Manning does. (Not knocking Mannings pre snap awesomeness either) I just find Bradys intelligence underrated due to people being blinded by hate. Which is why I always root for the Pats in the AFC. That system should be appreciated. If Manning wins though its still all good cause its impossible to root against him.

 

[cedric ceballos]

End of the day Peyton manning is the most overrated qb of our generation. I posted quite a few reasons in the undeserving MVP thread the other day.

Great regular season qb, craps the bed in the playoffs and loses to inferior teams at home regularly. I'd compare him to the 1991-05 Atlanta braves. Great team, put up dominant regular season win totals but would lose to inferior teams most of their playoff trips. At least they made it to 5 World Series though. Peyton usually does his choking at home in the early rounds of the playoffs.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Wet. He's had rough post-season success but hes not overrated. Lets not take it so far as to knock how good he still is. Winning championships in the NFL is so not easy. And he has deserved every MVP. There was a stretch where dudes regular season brilliance had him resting by week 13 seemingly every year. His regular season success might have even hindered his post season success given all that rest. We know all to well how important it is to be the hot team at the right time. It isnt an excuse regardless but there is nothing overrated about Manning. There are just a certain few people that should be put ahead of him for certain reasons.

 

[dmxfury]

Most overrated QB? I can't agree with that by any means unless you don't think he is a top 10 all time guy

 

[milbert]

I feel like Brady and Manning have both had the luxury of playin in divisions with wildly inconsistent teams. Not that they aren't great players but it's almost like having 4 or 5 bye weeks every season.

Talbert

 

[CP1708]

Manning is not overrated.

But this

And he has deserved every MVP

Is not true.


Dland, you now see why I laughed at your MVP take.

 

[cedric ceballos]

People consider him to be the greatest qb of all time which is absurd.

When you choke in the playoffs once, you chalk it up to a bad game and bad luck, when you choke twice you can call it a bad break. When you do it year in year out its being a playoff choker

He's lost 5 home playoff games. 4 with a 1st round bye, 2 of those 4 while being the 1 seed with home field advantage throughout the playoffs.

He's lost to an 8-8 team, He's lost to the jets at home and lost to the jets 41-0.

People blame that flacco pass to jacoby jones as if the ravens wouldn't have won in regulation if Denver's special teams didn't bail them out that game with a punt return and kickoff return for a touchdown.

People blame vanderjat for the loss to 6 seed Pittsburgh as if that game shouldn't have been over early in the 4th quarter when polamalu picked that ball off which was mistakingly overturned. Also Peyton throwing his o line under the bus with that "I'm trying to be a good teammate here" line gets swept under the rug.

Bottom line is this. Unless he wins another Super Bowl, people will look back at his career and be like how did he only win 1 and how did he blow all those home playoff games to inferior teams.

I expect him to choke again come January just like I did when I made $200 off that ravens game.

Until proven otherwise that 1991-2005 Atlanta Braves comparison of Peyton manning is spot on imo

 

[cedric ceballos]

Most overrated QB? I can't agree with that by any means unless you don't think he is a top 10 all time guy

Ill give him top 10. Alot of people I know consider him top 3 or best of all time which is where I strongly disagree.

I give Marino a pass for his postseason struggles because most of his career he had no one on that team. Peyton on the other hand played with a loaded stacked team on offense with a top notch offensive line from 03-present with the exception of 2010 when most his receivers were hurt.

His playoff underachieving is a huge blotch on his career to me and if I had to pick 1 qb to win a single big game for me, Peyton doesn't crack my top 5 at all.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Manning is not overrated.

But this

And he has deserved every MVP

Is not true.

I hesitated as i typed it but then thought well there's always at least been an argument to be made for every MVP hes received but nope, you're right. As I go look back and refresh my memory he should have 2 at most.

 

[proshares]

I'll probably regret this...

But out of curiosity, who is in your top 10?

 

[dmxfury]

Neither would've had those career stats in the AFCN

Ha ha!

 

[assyrianplaya]

Yeah, see you think you have me pegged, only you don't. I'm fine if you want to say Brady was one play away from one less SB. Bothers me none.

The guy has been to 5 Super Bowls. Want to reduce it by 1? Go right ahead.

Still more SB wins than Peyton.
Still more appearances than Peyton.
Still a lesser roster of weapons than Peyton
Still more head to head wins vs Peyton
Still more playoff wins than Peyton
Still a better win % than Peyton


So by all means. If it means that much to you, pull the tuck rule game off his resume, cool by me.

I mean, the Giants won like 3 plays after the Tyree catch. The Raiders had an entire series still to finish the game, couldn't do it. Went to OT, still couldn't finish the game. But hey, one play. Almost the exact same scenario, but not close.

Team
team
Peytons number **** on toms
team
team
team

Peyton would have A MUCH better career in NE and his career is already better now. I wish i could just off the record hear BB say who he would rather have on his team. We all know who would be.

 

[dmxfury]

I think BB is pretty happy with Tom