NFL Quarterbacks Discussion thread: 2013 Edition

[CP1708]

Then why did you rush in to bring it up? Why when discussing Aaron and Favre, with Packer/Viking fans, do you come in swinging with Peyton?

Why?

I brought him up or something?


You taking what actually happened in those games, Aaron did get 45, lost to KW, he did blow a home bye vs the Giants.....who won the SB, and he did lose to a 200 yard rushing QB. That's what I stated. Not excuses, facts that happened. That all happened, I mentioned them.

YOU take that as excuses, YOU do. I didn't say good for Aaron, or bad, I just said what happened in those games.


Just as I said what happened in all those Peyton games, but you'll ignore those, and say 7 touchdowns, 7 touchdowns!!!!!!

Been this way for 15 years now. Sorry I don't back Peyton enough like all you guys do, I love the guy, fun to watch, but I seen too many coincidences on his resume. When I see them on Aaron's, I'll speak on them.

Same as Favre, same as Dan, same as Tom, same as any QB thru the pipeline.


Oh wait, Andrew Luck has a losing record in the playoffs, I better get to work on how much he blows too.

 

[dland24]

The reason I pointed it was because if someone was talking about Peyton and said:

He lost, but it was his first playoff game......

or

He lost, but it was to the eventual Super Bowl Champion.....

....you know DAMN WELL that you would have jumped right down that person's throat.  You can say you wouldn't, but you would.  You have, and you will continue to do so.

That was my ENTIRE point of bringing this up.  Carrying on....

 

[jpzx]

I agree, there needs to be more examples, but we do sort of have to go off of what we have to evaluate right now.



The only thing I'll say is that "when Peyton lost to the eventual Super Bowl champs in 2003 & 2004", 1.) Peyton had to go on the road both times, 2.) those New England Patriot teams were better than the Colts both years, 2a.) and it showed in the regular season, 2b.) the records, 2c.) and also simply because they repeated. Clearly, they were the best team in 2003 & 2004 when Peyton Manning's team got eliminated by them back-to-back.

When Aaron Rodgers "lost to the eventual Super Bowl Champs", he was at home at Lambeau Field, and the Giants were clearly an inferior team.

 

[CP1708]

Ok, I'll be fair then. Let us be fair.

Aaron has had 4 playoff runs. Won a Super Bowl in his 2nd attempt, 4-0 that year, all on the road.


Peyton Manning, first 4 playoff go rounds. Ya know, to be fair.

1 and done, at home, off a bye, 1 and done to Jay Feidler, 1 and done 41-0, and then 2-1 losing to Tom Brady in which he threw 4 INT's.


Those 4 losses, 2 TD's, 6 INT's.




We good now?

Thanks for playin.

 

[dland24]

Thanks for playin.

Always a contest with you CP. 

 

[CP1708]

Hey, I was mindin my own business talkin AR. Not a care in the world. You had to come thru slick with the comments captain save a Peyton style.

So I just gave you Aaron thru 4 playoffs, Peyton thru 4 playoffs.

And now all you have is egg on your face.

So please, bring him up again next time I speak on Wade Wilson or T Pryor or somethin.

 

[dland24]

Alright, I have a spinoff question for you CP.  Since you like to be fair and compare things on equal grounds.....

So Colin Kaepernick has had 11 starts in the NFL.  Well if you compare Colin's first 11 NFL starts to Russell Wilson's first 11 NFL starts, you would see that Colin defecates on Russell in pretty much every measurable way.

Would you then conclude, that based on their early careers that Colin > Russel?

 

[CP1708]

Not yet, no.

LOVED what I saw from Colin in the playoffs, and on Sunday. Future is MEGA watt bright.

But

Russ started day 1. Day #1. Colin didn't.

That has to count for something.

Now, Jim is really really good with his QB's, and he liked Colin even in college, that too, has to count for something. I respect Jim very much, he must know what he's doin. Maybe he waited a lil bit for Colin to get prepped, I don't know.

But Wilson started day #1 and was inches away from being in the NFC Title game his rookie year. Colin made the Super Bowl his second year, sure, but he had that year to learn the system/league, etc.

Is Colin better, or had the better 11 game start? Sure, maybe. But you stated defecates, and I don't know if I go that route just yet.

I "think" I would prefer Colin just based on size. I know Russ has a high release point like Brees and can get the ball out, but I still worry about short QB's, I just have it in my head that the taller/bigger QB's can hold up better. Maybe Russ will start to change my way of thinking completely, we'll see.

 

[dland24]

Fair points.  But yes, the word is defecates.  Look at the numbers. They arent even close. Remember Russell started off fairly pedestrian and got hot a little after half way though the season.  Colin's 10 game stretch was better than almost any QB's first 10 games in NFL history....and substantially better than Russell's.

Its going to be wild in the NFCW with these guys for a long time.

 

[CP1708]

I'm sure they were, but I also understand that Russ is going to be slow for a few games coming in out the gate.

I watched it all year last year with Ryan Tannehill.

Colin having time to ease into the position can't be measured against guys that start on day 1 and go thru the bumps and bruises their first games of live action.

Colin had two training camps, X number of preseason games, practices, etc before he saw his first real action. Does he look as good thru 11 games if he started day #1? I'm thinking not. Maybe I'm wrong.



As for the NFCW, ohhhh, I can show how it will get even more fun. I have Mariotta penciled in for the Rams next year.

 

[dland24]

I'm sure they were, but I also understand that Russ is going to be slow for a few games coming in out the gate.

I watched it all year last year with Ryan Tannehill.

Colin having time to ease into the position can't be measured against guys that start on day 1 and go thru the bumps and bruises their first games of live action.

Colin had two training camps, X number of preseason games, practices, etc before he saw his first real action. Does he look as good thru 11 games if he started day #1? I'm thinking not. Maybe I'm wrong.



As for the NFCW, ohhhh, I can show how it will get even more fun. I have Mariotta penciled in for the Rams next year.

I hear what you are saying, but I have to correct you on one thing.  He didnt have two training camps.  There was no training camp his rookie year.  I agree that if he had to start day one, he might not look as good as he does now.  But on the flipside, he never worked with the first team offense until the point where Alex Smith was doubtful to play.....which was literally a day and a half before his first start.  He had little to no time to get acclimated to his WRs, and develop any sort of chemistry. 

Colin was definitely more of a project coming out of college than Wilson was.  Which is honestly why I am so surprised that he is playing at such a high level already....and which is why I dont disagree with you that he probably would have looked much worse starting day one than he did when he first started.

 

[CP1708]

My bad on that training camp thing. Good catch.

As for the numbers, today......I mean, you and I could get decent numbers up today man. We're easily seein 4-5 guys hit 5,000 yards this year, and could see a dozen hit 4,000. So remember, the numbers are sort of meh at this point.

Not to take away from this new breed of QB, or the ones that will come in next year, but we're going to see some hugely inflated numbers over the course of time the next few years until the league decides to adjust again and go back to some sort of run based game again. (not sure how long til that day, but these things are cyclical of course)

 

[fraij da 5 11]

Packers vs 49ers week 1

Rushing yards combined (Non-QB): 118

Passing yards: 745 on 77 total attempts

Passing TD's: 6

Rushing TD's: 2

This from a traditionally run first O in SF and a team wanting to establish the run in GB.

62 total points.

 

[dland24]

Well here's the thing Fraij.  Yes, the 49ers in recent years have established ourselves as a power running team.  It begs the question though...

Were we a power running team because that is how Harbaugh and Greg Roman like to run their team?  Or is it because they were stuck with having Alex Smith as our QB, and they couldn't run our offense exactly how they wanted to because of his limitations?

I think it is a little of both.  Harbaugh and Roman had the great Andrew Luck in college, but still ran a pretty even run-pass split.  I think that in 2011 and the Alex part of 2012, you can see that the play design was very "protect the QB" ish.  Now with Kap, we have opened the offense up a little more and there are FAR more vertical passes. 

I still think that the 49ers will run the ball a lot more than what we saw against the Packers.  I just think the Pack did a really good job of taking away Gore and Kap's running.......so he then shredded them with his arm. 

 

[fraij da 5 11]

My whole point was that you don't need to run anymore to setup the pass.

You can just pass... A lot. And rack up a $*%^ load of yards and TD's along the way.

 

[CP1708]

It's easy to see what's happening.

The rules dictate it is far more easy to throw the ball now than run the ball. No more 4-5 yards play after play when you can chunk the defense for 20 play after play.

And even when you miss a pass, you can get a penalty on the defense, auto first down, and still keep throwin.


The trend that Fraij alluded to is going to be that way in almost every game.


I haven't done the full numbers, but in my game, it was less than 100 yards from Richardson and Miller (hell, less than 75) and Tannehill and Weeden stood in the shotgun alllllllllll day and rifled throw after throw after throw. Probably somewhere around 80 attempts.


This is today's NFL. Point blank, period.

 

[dland24]

I understand the point that Fraij is making, and that you are agreeing with CP.  I was just speaking on how it applied to the 49ers....since he brought it up.  In the past two seasons, the 49ers have run the ball more than they have passed it.   Even in week 1 against the Packers.  Yes, we threw the ball 37 times, which was more than we ran it.  But we still attempted 27 running plays. 

Obviously, I know the NFL has become a pass first league in recent years.  There are still teams out there that dont agree with that philosophy.....the 49ers are one of those teams.

 

[651akathepaul]

This is today's NFL. Point blank, period.

Too much of a good thing. I hate what it's going to fully become.

 

[CP1708]

I think you're fooling yourself.

The 9ers may have a power run game, but I think they are giving the reins over to the QB much more day by day.

Not to mention you're a power run game, with an aging power runner. By the end of the year, I fully expect you guys to be passing just like everyone else.

Not Detroit levels of throwing, but in that middle somewhere. Kap is gonna have over 500 attempts this year I believe, along with 25 other QB's provided they are the ones that stay healthy for 14+ games.

 

[jecca650]

The 49ers are definitely moving to an offense with a more pass oriented direction now with Colin kaepernick. this is not speculation this is straight from one of their horses mouths. Tom Rathman, current 49ers runningback coach, was hanging out with my buddy John Taylor a couple months ago and told him himself. the running game aint going anywhere tho. harbaugh brothers are big on a balanced offense with the traditional power running game featuring a fullback and tailback.

 

[dland24]

I think you're fooling yourself.

The 9ers may have a power run game, but I think they are giving the reins over to the QB much more day by day.

Not to mention you're a power run game, with an aging power runner. By the end of the year, I fully expect you guys to be passing just like everyone else.

Not Detroit levels of throwing, but in that middle somewhere. Kap is gonna have over 500 attempts this year I believe, along with 25 other QB's provided they are the ones that stay healthy for 14+ games.

Dont disagree.  Just pointing out that for the past 2 seasons, while teams were airing the ball out, we were not doing so. 

 

[CP1708]

Ok, that I can agree with, I see what you meant. Thought you meant this season and beyond.


Looking forward to Luck - Tannehill this week.

 

[dland24]

Yeah.  A few posts ago, I posed the question.....is this Harbaugh and Roman's style or is it due to Alex Smith's limitations?  I personally think its a little of both.  We have a dynamic passer now, but I still think we will run the ball a lot more than most teams with a dynamic passer will.

Gore is on the downside of his career, but we have three good young backs that will pick up from him when he is no longer with us (assuming Lattimore can recover completely....which I think he will).

 

[651akathepaul]

Bump

Thread probably died because once things started to settle the haters ran out of ammo. Now they can only shoot blanks.

 

[DeadsetAce]