2013-2014 NBA Thread - IND @ WAS and OKC @ LAC on ESPN

[ballinsam23]

I actually value big men over any position in the league

 

[sea manup]

 

nothing's changed its just in most cases the pg is too small to be effective as the best player on the team

other than IT which was 20+ years ago, pretty much every championship team's clearcut best player has been big enough to be able to dominate a game


building around a 6ft player never works

why? based on what? CHauncy's pistons won in 05 right so again what has changed?

so they were chauncy's pistons now becaus that supports your argument? 

he won the finals mvp but just like your iverson argument, that team was carried by its defense

 

[sea manup]

 

wing player >>> post player >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pg

maybe if you ignore 60 years of basketball history.

C>>>>>> its not close.

have you not watched basketball for the past 8 years?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Position value is also irrelevant, you just need a great team at the end of the day, the pacers C & Pg are the worst of the starting 5 and theyre title contenders, same with miami

obviously.

its an average not a rule.

on average a great c will impact the game in more ways.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

have you not watched basketball for the past 8 years?

they hand out 1 chip a year, 8 years again doesn't change the game.

still 10 guys 2 nets and a round ball right?

tim duncan is a center no matter what the spurs will tell you, so is shaq, so i don't really get the 8 years comment.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

so they were chauncy's pistons now becaus that supports your argument? 

he won the finals mvp but just like your iverson argument, that team was carried by its defense

yeah he was the best player, not the mvp of the league. you could argue ben wallace maybe.

 

[sea manup]

 

have you not watched basketball for the past 8 years?

they hand out 1 chip a year, 8 years again doesn't change the game.

still 10 guys 2 nets and a round ball right?

so the 60s celtics would dominate now like they did back in the 60s?

still 10 guys 2 nets and a round ball right?

the game changes, adapt or get left behind

 

[black entourage inc]

Could've sworn Tim Duncan was 2nd in MVP voting in 2001...not saying Shaq didn't deserve it but I'm pretty sure he was 3rd

 

[black migo]

Chris Paul can be your best player. He just can't be your best scorer.

Luckily, BG has become the man so that's taken care of.

This is the year for the clips

Nah im still not sold on blake offensively, he has to be a 25 ppg scorer in the playoffs for lac to be contenders & cp3 has to also be more of a scorer come playoff time

 

[sea manup]

 

so they were chauncy's pistons now becaus that supports your argument? 

he won the finals mvp but just like your iverson argument, that team was carried by its defense

yeah he was the best player, not the mvp of the league. you could argue ben wallace maybe.

in this very thread you said that iverson only made the finals because of team defense

now you are using billups as an example for a PG leading a team to a title when he got "carred" by his team's all time great defense more so than iverson did?

discredit iverson's accomplishments because you dont like the way he plays so you hype up the 6ers defense, but then you say that billups is the best player on the pistons and lead them to a title ignoring their all time great defense because that wouldnt support your argument.

yeah no point arguing with people like you

 

[mister friendly]

Could've sworn Tim Duncan was 2nd in MVP voting in 2001...not saying Shaq didn't deserve it but I'm pretty sure he was 3rd

He was

Iverson had double the amount of votes that Shaq did

Having a superstar like Kobe on his team hurt Shaq's MVP chances

 

[sea manup]

 

Could've sworn Tim Duncan was 2nd in MVP voting in 2001...not saying Shaq didn't deserve it but I'm pretty sure he was 3rd

He was

Iverson had double the amount of votes that Shaq did

Having a superstar like Kobe on his team hurt Shaq's MVP chances

yup

2001-2002

kobe had 25.2 5.5 and 5.5 playing 80 games

shaq had 27.2 10.7 and 3 but only playing 67 games

hard to attribute the lakers success to just shaq

edit: wrong year

2000-2001

kobe had 28.5 5.9 and 5 in 68 games

shaq had 28.7 12.7 and 3.7 in 74 games

 

[osh kosh bosh]

in this very thread you said that iverson only made the finals because of team defense

now you are using billups as an example for a PG leading a team to a title when he got "carred" by his team's all time great defense more so than iverson did?


discredit iverson's accomplishments because you dont like the way he plays so you hype up the 6ers defense, but then you say that billups is the best player on the pistons and lead them to a title ignoring their all time great defense because that wouldnt support your argument.


yeah no point arguing with people like you

so the 60s celtics would dominate now like they did back in the 60s?

still 10 guys 2 nets and a round ball right?

the game changes, adapt or get left behind

You reading comprehension is both complete in its failure and unending in its ability to frustrate.


1. I was arguing that the Sixers were not a garbage team, because they were great defenders. Allen Iverson did not carry anybody to the finals it was a team effort, for what you alleged inconsistency to be correct I would have to be arguing that Chauncy carried the Pistons to the championship and that the Pistons were a garbage team.


No.

I was simply making the point that on a GREAT pistons team with many great players the best player was a point gaurd, nullfyuing your no PG has won in 30 years argument.



2. Your inability to explain how the game has changed rendering the PG less useful illustrates your lack of knowledge about the game, how it exists today or the accompaying the history.




IF ANYTHING. The 80's and 90's were especially equipped for a great isolation player to excel, the way zone was called, harder to play thibbadue style defenses popularized by theose celtic teams. Relaxing of the hand check rules, more complex defenses means smaller poing gaurd are likley more valuable than ever.

 

[sea manup]

the pg isnt useless, its just far from one of the most important positions needed to win a championship. the 3 most dominant teams since the jordan era started guys like derick fisher, steve kerr and mario chalmers at PG. thats not even top 10 PG in the league at the time worthy.

you keep making up bs excuses like only one team wins a year, so its not actually that bad that a team with a top PG hasnt led a team to a title. well the bottom line is it doesnt happen, while a player that doesnt play the PG position leads his team to a championship literally every year in recent memory.

i get how you have some weird love fest with chris paul and how he plays basketball the "right" way and makes his teammates better. his team success is about the same as guys like melo and tmac. 

john stockton is a top 3 all time PG, he had a top 3 all time PF on his team but his team lost to a team without a half decent PG in the finals twice because a guy like jordan who is bigger than a PG can dominate a game way more than any PG out side of 6'9 magic can.

steve nash and jason kidd are the two best pgs of this era, they didnt win anything. kidd only won a ring after he got on a team where 7 ft dirk was by far the best player

the two guys with the most rings since the 80s kobe and jordan have both been considered ball hogs but that didnt keep them from winning

you can sit there and keep making up more excuses but the fact is when you look at past champions, there is nothing that leads me to believe that an elite pg is very important for winning a championship.

so keep telling yourself that the way chris paul plays basketball results in more wins than iverson or melo and keep watching him come up short year after year then keep blaming his teammates or his coach or his teams lack of defense.

you say centers are more important than any other position when it comes to winning championships right now when there hasnt been a dominant center on a championship team since 06. but LOOK! there were lots of great centers in the 90s and 80s!!! 

 at even trying to explain why the 80s or 90s can tell us more about what it takes to win a championship in 2014 than what has happened in the past 5-10 years

 

[essential1]

Pau was 4-13 through 3 quarters in Game 7. Shot 7-13 from the line. Just thought I'd share that.

 

[sea manup]

Pau was 4-13 through 3 quarters in Game 7. Shot 7-13 from the line. Just thought I'd share that.

must have been ron artest that carried kobe to that championship then

 

[kevin cleveland]

This feels like a pretty circular argument that you guys are in, but...

Basketball is a team game, man. Plain and simple. The championing or downplaying of any one player in any major context like that is irresponsible. This position, that position... doesn't matter. No one is doing it alone.

Generally speaking, though, I'm with the post > point > wing camp. On a day-to-day basis, wings feel like the most replaceable, and therefore, least valuable. Think the fact that three of the greatest players in basketball history have all been recent wing players, and that the league is without many dominant post players lately, is clouding some judgment here.

 

[sea manup]

This is a pretty circular argument that you guys are in, but...

Basketball is a team game, man. Plain and simple. The championing or downplaying of any one player in any major context like that is irresponsible. This position, that position... doesn't matter. No one is doing it alone.

yeah of course all positions are important but its pretty dumb to say a C and PG are the most important positions when it comes to building a championship team when a majority of title winners in the past 20 years had average to below average PGs and Cs and literally every championship team had an elite wing player (SG/SF)

you could argue that the pistons won with billups who was far from an elite pg as their best player but the fact that its an outlier only further emphasizes the fact that an elite PG is not needed to win a championship let alone on of the most important pieces.

 

[urbetterthenme]

Kobe never made anybody better. LBJ had eric snow out there looking awesome. Had Anthony Parker styling..... had bums actually playing good in Cleveland

 

[sea manup]

Generally speaking, though, I'm with the post > point > wing camp. On a day-to-day basis, wings feel like the most replaceable, and therefore, least valuable. Think the fact that three of the greatest players in basketball history have all been recent wing players, and that the league is without many dominant post players lately, is clouding some judgment here.

i agree that wings are the most replaceable, but im talking about having the biggest impact on an nba game in 2014

of course if you have a guy like shaq you build around him and get championships out of it but the common denominator between all recent championship teams have been non Cs or PGs

my ranking would be sf/sg>sf>c>>pg

in the 90s championship teams were built around the games best wing players (jordan) and post players (duncan, hakeem)

in the 00s championship teams were built around the games best wing players (kobe, wade) and post players (shaq, duncan)

in the 10s championship teams were built around the games best wing players (lebron) and post players (dirk)

with KD coming around the corner the trend doesnt seem to be stopping soon.

if i could have a top tier PG on my team of course i would take him but i really dont see how a top PG is more important to have when building a championship team than a player from any of the other positions.

if we get the 1st pick this year i would hope we get embiid because its rare to get a good C in the league today and its not too hard to get a top tier wing player, but thats more due to scarcity rather than how vital a C is to winning a championship

 

[sea manup]

RoyceWebb  Royce Webb, ESPN NBA
So the Seahawks win a Super Bowl before the ATL Hawks make it to the East finals ... #43years

 

[mister friendly]

Yep guys like Shannon Brown, Sasha, Farmar, Ariza, Luke Walton etc were balling out of control before and after playing with Kobe

Pau was an All-NBA player before playing with Kobe

Wait......?

 

[xbiker47]

Kobe never made anybody better. LBJ had eric snow out there looking awesome. Had Anthony Parker styling..... had bums actually playing good in Cleveland

QFT

 

[sea manup]

another reason that guys like CP3 dont get as much hate as score first wing players

people hate on kobe because he gets compared to jordan and jordan is better + has more rings

lebron got hate before miami because kobe had rings but lebron never won anything

melo gets hate because he's compared to lebron who has led his team to rings while melo has not

same with dwight when it comes to the few people that are still mad at the shaq stuff, shaq lead his team to rings but dwight didnt

there is no pressure like this for CP3 because in recent memory there are ZERO top tier pgs that have won championships, steve nash and jason kidd fans cant say "cp3 isnt a winner because he never lead his team to a chip like nash and kidd did" because nash and kidd never lead their teams to championships which is the go to argument when it comes to melo "he cant lead his team to wins like lebron does" or iverson "he cant lead his team to wins like wade or kobe"

 

[Deleted member 37467]

Yep guys like Shannon Brown, Sasha, Farmar, Ariza, Luke Walton etc were balling out of control before and after playing with Kobe

Pau was an All-NBA player before playing with Kobe

Wait......?

Oh boy.