2013-2014 NBA Thread - IND @ WAS and OKC @ LAC on ESPN

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Its crazy to think that Oden got picked before Durant :x :x

The disparity between them now is BIBLICAL :lol:
We could say the same thing about Jordan and Bowie :lol:
correction, Bowie being picked before the GOAT was biblical :lol:
same franchise :smh:
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portland really have had a bunch of bad breaks (no pun intended)

walton, bowie, olden, roy, darius miles

still remember a stat where they showed roy, olden, and aldridge having a winning pct of .700 in the games they played together
 
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I still believe Oden would have been a top center in the league if not for the injuries, don't think he would be the second best player in the L like KD but elite nonetheless.
 
Is the only purpose of Oden on the Heat strictly for the playoffs?? He just has to last roughly those 25-26 games?
 
I still believe Oden would have been a top center in the league if not for the injuries, don't think he would be the second best player in the L like KD but elite nonetheless.

18 PER as a rookie, 23.1 PER in 21 games at 22 years old?

i think his potential was every bit as a great as KD, maybe more when you consider position value.


too bad.
 
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I wasn't a believer in Oden. Not at least in the franchise center they were telling me he'd be. His touch around the basket was poor and his footwork wasn't great.

Durant from the jump >>>>>>
 
If he stayed healthy Oden had the potential to be an elite center and top player in the league.

I was a huge fan.
 
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I wasn't a believer in Oden. Not at least in the franchise center they were telling me he'd be. His touch around the basket was poor and his footwork wasn't great.

Durant from the jump >>>>>>

Yeah. I think its a reach to say Oden could have been on the same level as Durant, if he stayed healthy. KD is a transcendent talent -- a 6'11" dude who handles and shoots the ball like a guard. Oden could have been a very solid center, but not a next level superstar like that.
 
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10308520/nba-handing-league-least-valuable-player-awards

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Give the guy a Nobel Peace Prize, because his leadership must be that transformative. Otherwise, there is no way he could convince an NBA coach to give him 20 minutes a night in 2014. Alas, Scott Brooks can't shake his Perkins addiction. With Perkins, every shred of tangible evidence points to "not an NBA player."


Perkins


Get this: He currently has more turnovers (53) than made baskets (48). And then there's the fact that he fouls five times as often as he blocks a shot.

If he does positive things outside the box score, it doesn't show on the scoreboard; the Thunder are 9.2 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the floor, according to NBA.com. That is especially amazing considering he plays almost exclusively (683 of his 690 minutes) with Kevin Durant. Even the MVP favorite can't hide his futility. Perkins ranks last in Estimated Wins Added (minus-1.5) and second-to-last in WARP (minus-1.8). It's hard to imagine a player more unintentionally destructive.
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He doesn't make 18+ million dollars over the next 2 yrs or start on a team who calls themselves a contender.
5. Who is the least valuable center this season?

Abbott: Kendrick Perkins will win this in a landslide. He plays long minutes, and his offensive numbers are terrible. But I'll point out that the stats show he is, nonetheless, part of some of the NBA's most effective lineups. So, either Durant is a miracle worker or Perk is bringing something. Cody Zeller, though, of the Bobcats, has similar stats, only, in addition, the offense and the defense get significantly worse when he checks in. (When he's in the game, the Bobcats are outscored by 7.9 points per 100 possessions, vs. 1.3 when he sits.) Zeller is 21 and a rookie, so it's no cause for panic. But if we're talking this season, he has been bad.

Harris: Kendrick Perkins. Right now, Oklahoma City's starting center has 117 points and 105 fouls. Didn't think that was possible, but Perk is clearly out to prove the naysayers wrong.

Lynch: Kendrick Perkins. It's remarkable that the Thunder are this good with two of the least productive rotation players in the league. Perkins is essentially a zero on offense, touching the ball fewer than 30 times per game, which includes rebounds and inbound passes. And his reputation as a Dwight stopper on defense has been overblown for years. Oklahoma City can win with Perk, but he's not exactly helping the cause.

Pelton: Kendrick Perkins. With Perkins on the floor, the Oklahoma City offense grinds to a relative halt: The Thunder score 7.8 more points per 100 possessions when he's on the bench. Although that has something to do with slumping fellow starter Thabo Sefolosha, Perkins commands little attention from opposing defenses and is prone to turnovers when he does touch the basketball
 
:lol:

for a guy who has no touch around the rim he always seems to keep shooting 60% from the field or more

y'all are rewriting history, don't get it twisted greg Oden was a once in a generation prospect, high school legend, dominant college season, when he actually played on an nba court, he was really really good at a very young age.
 
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NBA's Least Valuable Players.

As Kevin Durant and LeBron James duke it out in the MVP race and the J.R. Smith circus tours America, it got me thinking:

Who's leading the LVP race so far?

In this edition of Per Diem, we'll take stock in the race for the least valuable player so far this season. Just like in the MVP race, we're not considering the contract status. For the purposes of this list, we're interested in identifying the players who have hurt their team's chances to win most. In essence, we're not looking at the 15th man on the roster. After all, you can't lose if you don't play.

Taking into consideration every player's traditional numbers and advance metrics including on-court/off-court data, here is one man's ranking of the least valuable players in the league so far.

And the "winners" are …

LVP: Kendrick Perkins, Oklahoma City Thunder

Give the guy a Nobel Peace Prize, because his leadership must be that transformative. Otherwise, there is no way he could convince an NBA coach to give him 20 minutes a night in 2014. Alas, Scott Brooks can't shake his Perkins addiction. With Perkins, every shred of tangible evidence points to "not an NBA player."


Perkins
Get this: He currently has more turnovers (53) than made baskets (48). And then there's the fact that he fouls five times as often as he blocks a shot.

If he does positive things outside the box score, it doesn't show on the scoreboard; the Thunder are 9.2 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the floor, according to NBA.com. That is especially amazing considering he plays almost exclusively (683 of his 690 minutes) with Kevin Durant. Even the MVP favorite can't hide his futility. Perkins ranks last in Estimated Wins Added (minus-1.5) and second-to-last in WARP (minus-1.8). It's hard to imagine a player more unintentionally destructive.


Second place: Anthony Bennett, Cleveland Cavaliers

Please, just send him to the D-League already. This isn't about pity; it's about rehabilitation. You know what's worse for his confidence than a demotion? Sticking with the status quo.


Bennett
With an obscenely bad 1.1 PER and a subterranean 31.9 percent true shooting percentage, this is the worst rookie season for a top pick by a country mile. The guy is shooting 14-for-78 (18 percent) outside five feet and ranks dead last in win shares (minus-0.9).

For someone with conditioning issues, why nail him to the bench when he could work himself into shape in the D-League without the spotlight? Keeping him on the big-league roster reeks of cognitive dissonance by a desperate organization trying to save face. The sleep apnea, shoulder soreness and asthma issues are real, but so is the potential damage to his career and the Cavs' chances at relevance. He might not boast the number of minutes as the rest of the names here, but his play is too toxic to leave him off.


Third place: Ben McLemore, Sacramento Kings.

Maybe it's completely meaningless and utterly arbitrary, but ever since LeBron James posterized him in Miami on Dec. 20, here are the rook's averages over those 12 games: 21.0 minutes, 4.6 points, 2.1 rebounds, 0.8 assists and 31.7 percent shooting from the floor, 32.1 percent from downtown and 0.7 free throw attempts.


McLemore
The worst part? He has 35 fouls and one steal over that span. That's horrendous for an athlete like him.

You probably haven't heard more about McLemore's demise because the most of the top 10 in the 2013 draft (with the exception of No. 9 pick Trey Burke) has been a train wreck. But McLemore's minus-0.4 PER this month illustrates how bad it's gotten, and he's now in danger of dropping out of the rotation after losing his starting spot earlier this month.

He's still just 20 years old, but we could be waiting a while for his athleticism to translate onto the NBA level.


Fourth place: Tayshaun Prince, Memphis Grizzlies

Meet the least valuable player in the league so far -- according to WARP. The 33-year-old has been a tire fire this season as the Grizzlies' starting small forward, posting a minus-1.9 WARP, which means that he's cost the Grizzlies two wins compared to a guy at the end of the bench.


Prince
For a team like the Grizzlies in the thick of the race, those two wins could be the difference between a playoff spot and the lottery.

Now that Prince has oddly abandoned the 3-point line for a team that is starving for treys, his value as an offensive player has just about vanished. He's not a shot creator and he ranks dead last in catch-and-shoot efficiency among the 82 players with at least 100 plays, according to Synergy. His solid defense keeps him from appearing higher on the list, but even that is waning as he ages. Recent free agent signee James Johnson could be starting before long.


Fifth place: J.R. Smith, New York Knicks

The issue isn't if the Knicks should bench Smith. The real question is, why didn't it happen sooner? By benching Smith now after juvenile antics, the Knicks are conveniently trying to distract fans from the actual culprit: he can't score.


Smith
Among the 98 players with a usage rate north of 20 percent and at least 750 minutes played, Smith ranks dead last in true shooting percentage (45.5 percent). The only thing more poisonous than a player who can't score is one that thinks he can.

With knee issues sapping his mobility, he should be reduced to a catch-and-shoot weapon, but the problem is that he believes he's Steve Nash, not Steve Novak. On-court/off-court data from NBA.com suggests that the Knicks are better off on both ends of the floor without him, confirming what our eyes tell us.

Dishonorable mentions:


Mayo
O.J. Mayo, Milwaukee Bucks: Mayo's numbers don't scream LVP on the surface, as he's posted a lukewarm 11.7 PER with an above-average 37.9 percent conversion rate from downtown. But then you realize that the Bucks have been outscored by 15.5 points per 100 possessions with him on the floor and just 1.7 points per 100 possessions with him on the bench. In other words, the Bucks aren't a tanking team with Mayo.



Hinrich
Kirk Hinrich, Chicago Bulls: Not many players can make D.J. Augustin look like an All-Star by comparison. Enter Hinrich. The guy is shooting 29 percent over his last 14 games, ever since the Bulls thumped the Miami Heat by 20 points in early December. He can't get into the paint and can't create enough separation to open up passing lanes so he's just brutal to watch run an offense at this stage in his career. Among players with at least 30 minutes per game, Hinrich owns the worst PER at 9.1. I can't believe I'm saying this, but, more Augustin, please.



Zeller
Cody Zeller, Charlotte Bobcats: Remember when people thought he was the next LaMarcus Aldridge? Let's pump the brakes on that. Zeller has been atrocious as a shooter, converting just 26 percent of his 87 midrange jumpers this season. He has yet to make a 3-pointer, despite the hype that he was the best stretch 4 in the draft. It's early, but the No. 4 pick has been a mess on both ends of the floor.




Green
Willie Green, Los Angeles Clippers: If it weren't for his longtime pal Chris Paul, Green may be out of the league. He can knock down a corner 3 every once in a while, but other than that, he's a liability on the offensive end. The Clippers' starting lineup with J.J. Redick has scored 109.4 points per 100 possessions this season, per NBA.com. With Green? 97.7 points per 100 possessions. It's hard to make an offense that stars Paul and Blake Griffin look mediocre, but Green works wonders.




Fisher
Derek Fisher, Oklahoma City Thunder: Like the guy ranked No. 1 on this list, his leadership qualities must outweigh his on-court contributions, which makes you wonder why he doesn't just put on a three-piece suit and join the coaching staff already. He's woefully inefficient with a 50.1 percent true shooting percentage, but unlike other players on this list, he knows his limits for the most part. At 39, he's washed up like a beached whale.

Bonus for you clowns, since the CBB season is over and he's been declared the best.

Why Joel Embiid is No. 1.

ESPN Insider's Chad Ford and Kevin Pelton return to provide the kind of discussions that are happening in front offices around the NBA -- where scouts and statistical experts are breaking down NBA draft prospects using their "eyes, ears and numbers."


Chad Ford's Top 100 | Big Board 5.0

1. Is Joel Embiid really the No. 1 NBA prospect?

Kevin Pelton: Chad, after consulting with scouts and watching the top prospects, you moved Embiid to the top of your Big Board on Wednesday. Well, my WARP projections already had him tied with Jabari Parker as the best of the freshmen. Let's take a look at why the numbers are so high on Embiid, starting with his field goal percentage.


Rich Sugg/Kansas City Star/Getty Images
Embiid's offensive game is much more polished than many scouts and NBA execs thought.
Embiid has made 69.7 percent of his attempts inside the arc. That would place him among the best NCAA finishers of the past decade and a half. And those raw stats don't consider that Kansas has played the nation's most difficult schedule.

Factoring that in, the history of NCAA-to-NBA translations suggests Embiid's performance is equivalent to making 60 percent of his 2-point attempts in the NBA, which would be incredible for a rookie. (Per Basketball-Reference.com, just five rookies have shot better than 60 percent on 2-pointers in the past decade.) In fact, part of the reason Embiid's WARP projection isn't higher is that the system assumes he's shooting so well from the field that it has to be partly fluky. If he can keep it up the rest of the season, he'll dramatically improve his projection.

Chad Ford: The popular conception about Embiid is that he's a risky choice. The narrative on him is that he's this raw big man who has moved up the board completely on upside. That's the media narrative I get, but there are also still GMs and scouts who view him this way. That's the part I don't understand. The numbers don't suggest that Embiid is a risky pick at all. Neither does the eye test. He's actually quite polished offensively and has gotten more aggressive as the season has worn on.

I'm also interested in how he compares to the two guys we had atop our Big Board the past two seasons -- Anthony Davis and Nerlens Noel. Both players were considered "projects", too, in January -- especially Noel -- but in both cases, their numbers said they were the top prospect in the draft. Obviously, Davis has proved that to be true. Noel is still recovering from ACL surgery, so we don't know yet how he'll fare in the NBA.

2. How does Embiid compare to Anthony Davis and Nerlens Noel?

Pelton: Embiid is clearly a different kind of player offensively, playing a much larger role in the Kansas offense but also turning the ball over much more frequently in the post than Davis, in particular, did at Kentucky. (Davis has ended up being a far higher-usage player as a pro.) Here's how his performance, translated to its NBA equivalent, compares to Davis and Noel through mid-January of their freshmen campaigns:

Embiid vs Davis vs Noel
Player 2P% 3P% FT% OR% DR% Ast% Stl% Blk% Usg 2A% 3A%
Embiid 0.609 0.228 0.671 0.101 0.19 0.027 0.015 0.059 0.168 0.649 0.023
Noel 0.508 0 0.571 0.082 0.166 0.027 0.031 0.057 0.126 0.742 0
Davis 0.581 0 0.679 0.092 0.201 0.015 0.022 0.07 0.136 0.774 0.023
Defensively, Embiid is in the ballpark with Davis and Noel with one major exception -- his foul rate. Embiid is averaging 6.8 fouls per 40 minutes, and while that's partially attributable to whistles being increased throughout the NCAA, that doesn't account for the entire discrepancy between him and the Kentucky duo. Is that a concern for scouts?

Ford: It is. Again, back to the raw narrative: He hasn't been playing basketball that long. Learning how to play big and not foul takes time, and Embiid is clearly still feeling things out. He'll have to take another huge leap when he moves from college to the NBA. Surprisingly, most of the NBA guys I talk to, especially the old-timers, really want him to stay another year at Kansas. That's a fairly rare sentiment. Usually, NBA scouts and GMs want players in the draft.

Some of it is selfish (the more players in the draft, the better chances a good player falls to them), and some of it is pragmatic (many in the NBA believe that players pick up bad habits in college and it's better for them to learn the NBA game right away). But for Embiid, they feel like one more year of tutelage under Bill Self could make him unstoppable. I doubt Embiid stays, given the fact he looks like he's a lock for a top-three pick, but it's interesting nonetheless. No one is saying that about Andrew Wiggins, Jabari Parker or Dante Exum.

3. What's the downside to Embiid?

Pelton: In the context of that discussion, it's worth mentioning the one strike against Embiid: his age. Because he's so new to basketball, the fact that he's a full year older than Parker -- and just 10 days younger than Marcus Smart -- hasn't gotten much attention. Embiid is the most interesting test case yet of whether age or basketball experience matters more when it comes to future development.

Because of that, I think it's best for Embiid to go pro. His dominance at the college level might also limit his ability to grow. Already, he's No. 2 in the NCAA in advanced statistical plus-minus. When he's dominating a team like Iowa State with nobody taller than 6-foot-7, I don't know how much that's helping him prepare for the NBA.

Ford: I think that's a great point to end on, Kevin.

There just aren't that many big men in the college game who are really going to challenge Embiid. If he's going to reach his potential, he needs to be challenged by people with his size and abilities. That said, one of the reasons that Embiid is so attractive as a No. 1 pick is that there just aren't that many special 7-footers who play like a center in the NBA these days. Having someone like that gives your team a huge advantage, and it's ultimately why I think Embiid ends up the favorite to go No. 1. If he reaches his potential, you could make the argument pretty easily that he has the ability to be the best player at his position in the NBA someday. That's certainly a compelling argument to take him No. 1.
 
Amazing that we're most likely going to have the two worst rookie seasons back to back with Rivers and Bennett, both lottery picks as well
 
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