2013-2014 NBA Thread - IND @ WAS and OKC @ LAC on ESPN

[lawdog1]

Can we have the weekly point guard debate again? 

My top 5
1. Paul
2. Curry
3. Westbrook
4. Parker
5. Toss up

But if the Clippers lose tonight --

1. Curry
2. Westbrook
3. Parker
4. Lillard
5. Jeff Teague
6. Kyle Lowry
7. Jose Calderon
8. DJ Augustin
9. CP3

 

[elpablo21]

Is Chris Paul Somehow Underrated?

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

There's a neat narrative in the NBA today (which we help perpetuate) that LeBron James and Kevin Durant are the best players in the league by a mile, each season a clash between two great legacies in the making. But how true is this, really?

Below are the league's top players, based on three popular, comprehensive stats—the closely related wins shares and wins produced per 48, plus PER—and two metrics—Real Plus/Minus and Expected Point Value Added—that ESPN introduced this year to much fanfare.
 

• Win shares per 48: 1. Kevin Durant (.295), 2. Chris Paul (.270), 3. LeBron James (.264)
• Wins produced per 48: 1. Paul (.335), 2. Andre Drummond (.331), 3. James (.327), 4. DeAndre Jordan (.323), 5. Durant (.30
• PER (Hollinger): 1. Durant (29.9), 2. James (29.4), 3. Kevin Love (27.0), 4. Anthony Davis (26.5), 5. Boogie Cousins (26.2), 6. Paul (26.0)
• Real Plus/Minus: 1. James (8.56), 2. Paul (7.2, 3. Andre Iguodala (6.95), 4. Durant (6.53)
• Expected Point Value Added (2012-13): 1. Paul (3.4, 2. Dirk Nowitzki (2.60) 3. Deron Williams (2.52)

These stats are not without their weaknesses, and I wouldn't point to any of them to individually argue for any player. Taken together, though, they tell you two things: 1) If you make a new stat—and that stat involves even a slightly non-traditional definition of what it means to be "good"—there's a decent chance you'll find Chris Paul's name somewhere near the top of the list; 2) Paul deserves to be at least somewhere in the best-player conversation, if only because he makes you wonder what the use is of having the conversation in the first place.
 
You can pretty readily see why he isn't there. The last decade-and-change of pro basketball has unfolded in the shadow of Michael Jordan and what's come to be known as "hero ball." The best player in basketball, according to the precepts of the hero-ball era, is the player who takes and makes the biggest shots: Jordan dropping 49 and 63 on the Celtics in his first two playoff games, in 1986; LeBron scoring 48 points—including 29 of the Cavs' final 30—in a double-overtime victory over the Pistons in 2007. The best player is surely versatile and unselfish, but what separates him from the rest is his ability to score, to turn his team's offense into an expression of his will. Close your eyes and think of this kind of player. Chances are you're imagining someone who looks a lot more like Michael Jordan than he does Chris Paul.

That's because Paul, a point guard, doesn't really play hero ball. (He can when needed: With the Clippers down 97-86 with seven minutes to play in their playoff opener against the Warriors, Paul scored 10 of Los Angeles's next 16 points to tie the game at 102.) He's never scored more than 43 points in a game—LeBron and Durant have pulled off the feat a combined 46 times—or more than 35 points in a playoff game, which Durant and LeBron have managed 31 times. Paul can't easily be extricated from a team context, since what he does best of all—and perhaps as well as anyone ever to play the position—is initiate an effective interaction with a teammate. Reconciling the value of such broad effectiveness with individual brilliance is something even the most forward-minded basketball heads still struggle with, especially for a player like Paul, who alternates between the two at will.

As our own Tom Scocca wrote a couple years ago, "Basketball wants heroes, not effective interactions." The sport has yet to coalesce around a single, kitchen-sink stat the way baseball has coalesced around WAR, in part because there are as many different ideas about how to weight those interactions as there are analysts to run the regressions. Those five stats I mention above reflect five different attempts, and Paul's presence at the top of four of them suggests that they're telling a story about "best"ness that's at odds with the one basketball has been telling for more than 20 years.

 

[mczoot]

however, it hurts my soul to watch steph and lillard play defense hahaha

 

[pepperjackchees]

I would put Parker #1 especially since were playing postseason basketball.

I would too, if we're talking power rankings based on Game 1, but overall, I don't think he's the very best. 

Then I'd have to have Lillard up there too and somehow Jeff Teague too and Lowry. 

 

[lamekilla]

Still got clippers going to the finals but is them boys **** up tonight CP3 better delete all his social media accounts. Skip will tear him a new one in the AM

 

[do work son]

Still got clippers going to the finals but is them boys **** up tonight CP3 better delete all his social media accounts. Skip will tear him a new one in the AM

not one NBA player really takes what skip bayless says into account. they hear it, i'm sure. but actual give any respect to the points he makes? nah.

 

[flyerthandelta]

The disrespect towards the French Gawd.

 

[tyonenine]

But if the Clippers lose tonight --

1. Curry
2. Westbrook
3. Parker
4. Lillard
5. Jeff Teague
6. Kyle Lowry
7. Jose Calderon
8. DJ Augustin
9. CP3

I hope you have Mario "top ten" Chalmers in that next spot

 

[flyerthandelta]

Whats a superstar in yall eyes serious question?

 

[CP1708]

[QUOTE url="[URL]http://regressing.deadspin.com/is-chris-paul-somehow-underrated-1565590230[/URL]"]
Is Chris Paul Somehow Underrated?
 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

There's a neat narrative in the NBA today (which we help perpetuate) that LeBron James and Kevin Durant are the best players in the league by a mile, each season a clash between two great legacies in the making. But how true is this, really?

Below are the league's top players, based on three popular, comprehensive stats—the closely related wins shares and wins produced per 48, plus PER—and two metrics—Real Plus/Minus and Expected Point Value Added—that ESPN introduced this year to much fanfare.
 

• Win shares per 48: 1. Kevin Durant (.295), 2. Chris Paul (.270), 3. LeBron James (.264)
• somewhere[/I] in the best-player conversation, if only because he makes you wonder what the use is of having the conversation in the first place.
   
  You can pretty readily see why he isn't there. The last decade-and-change of pro basketball has unfolded in the shadow of Michael Jordan and what's come to be known as "[URL=http://deadspin.com/5916640/there-is-no-best-player-in-the-nba-the-problem-with-the-basketball-hero-industry]hero ball." The best player in basketball, according to the precepts of the hero-ball era, is the player who takes and makes the biggest shots: Jordan dropping 49 and 63 on the Celtics in his first two playoff games, in 1986; LeBron scoring 48 points—including 29 of the Cavs' final 30—in a double-overtime victory over the Pistons in 2007. The best player is surely versatile and unselfish, but what separates him from the rest is his ability to score, to turn his team's offense into an expression of his will. Close your eyes and think of this kind of player. Chances are you're imagining someone who looks a lot more like Michael Jordan than he does Chris Paul.
  
  That's because Paul, a point guard, doesn't really play hero ball. (He can when needed: With the Clippers down 97-86 with seven minutes to play in their playoff opener against the Warriors, Paul scored 10 of Los Angeles's next 16 points to tie the game at 102.) He's never scored more than 43 points in a game—LeBron and Durant have pulled off the feat a combined 46 times—or more than 35 points in a playoff game, which Durant and LeBron have managed 31 times. Paul can't easily be extricated from a team context, since what he does best of all—and perhaps as well as anyone ever to play the position—is initiate an effective interaction with a teammate. Reconciling the value of such broad effectiveness with individual brilliance is something even the most forward-minded basketball heads still struggle with, especially for a player like Paul, who alternates between the two at will.
  
  As our own Tom Scocca wrote a couple years ago, "Basketball wants heroes, not effective interactions." The sport has yet to coalesce around a single, kitchen-sink stat the way baseball has coalesced around WAR, in part because there are as many different ideas about how to weight those interactions as there are analysts to run the regressions. Those five stats I mention above reflect five different attempts, and Paul's presence at the top of four of them suggests that they're telling a story about "best"ness that's at odds with the one basketball has been telling for more than 20 years.
  [/URL]

• 
  
  
  
  

• 
  
  
  
  
  [/quote]
  
  Great timing.

 

[pmatic]

This thread sucks.

 

[lamekilla]

not one NBA player really takes what skip bayless says into account. they hear it, i'm sure. but actual give any respect to the points he makes? nah.

Tell that to Lebron James' Sports Psychiatrist

Whats a superstar in yall eyes serious question?

Someone who makes "it" happen when it needs to

 

[Rootin4EverybodyBlack]

The Clippers are not going to the finals. They're fools gold just like Rockets. If GSW doesn't end them OKC definitely will.

 

[ballinsam23]

I dont care who the #1 PG is but in terms of the type of PG I would want if I'm running/building a team......

1. CP3
2. Rondo
3. Parker
4. Rubio

 

[do work son]

not one NBA player really takes what skip bayless says into account. they hear it, i'm sure. but actual give any respect to the points he makes? nah.

Tell that to Lebron James' Sports Psychiatrist

i'm not sure i know what you're referencing

The Clippers are not going to the finals. They're fools gold just like Rockets. If GSW doesn't end them OKC definitely will.

i wouldn't say they're fools gold. they're a good team, just like the rockets are. it just so happens there's 2 other teams in the west, (SA and OKC) who look worlds better than everyone else

 

[jumpmanfromdabay]

Why do you guys like to list everything? Just enjoy the game

 

[dt43]

Adrian Wojnarowski [emoji]10004[/emoji] @WojYahooNBA
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NBA issues statement on Houston-Portland Game 1: Foul on Dwight Howard w/ 10.8 seconds left in OT should've been called on Joel Freeland.





Disgusting.. there needs to be serious refereeing changes instituted in the offseason. I can only imagine how embarassing it will be for Silver if they keep having to issue these statements every other day throughout the playoffs.

Just imagine if a team wins the championship on a bad call, then a couple days later the NBA issues a statement "Foul should have been called on Lebron James fouling Kevin Durant in game 7 of NBA Finals with 5 seconds left in OT" like oops we messed up the Finals sorry guys

 

[Rootin4EverybodyBlack]

i'm not sure i know what you're referencing
i wouldn't say they're fools gold. they're a good team, just like the rockets are. it just so happens there's 2 other teams in the west, (SA and OKC) who look worlds better than everyone else

My bad I'll clarify.

Yes they are good teams..and on paper both should be very dominant. But for whatever reason they can't pull it all together to use their resources efficiently.

Call it killer instinct, or whatever it is, they just don't have it.

 

[sea manup]

i'm not sure i know what you're referencing
i wouldn't say they're fools gold. they're a good team, just like the rockets are. it just so happens there's 2 other teams in the west, (SA and OKC) who look worlds better than everyone else

My bad I'll clarify.

Yes they are good teams..and on paper both should be very dominant. But for whatever reason they can't pull it all together to use their resources efficiently.

Call it killer instinct, or whatever it is, they just don't have it.

the answer you're looking for is "james harden and chris paul" harden can get there some day though with enough motivation and coaching

 

[Rootin4EverybodyBlack]

the answer you're looking for is "james harden and chris paul" harden can get there some day though with enough motivation and coaching

I honestly think Harden is the lazy I been at the strip club all night..type player. I think he'll always be good..but I doubt he will get a lot better.

I always joked the reason why he got traded instead of Russell is because mama Durant thought harden was a bad influence

 

[urbetterthenme]

I dont care who the #1 PG is but in terms of the type of PG I would want if I'm running/building a team......

1. CP3
2. Rondo
3. Parker
4. Rubio

No Wall?

 

[herbshuttles15]

Why would you want Rubio isn't he one the worst shooters in the nba

 

[ballinsam23]

I love Rubio's passing ability. Especially in the pick n roll. I think he's arguably the best at it.

Rubio will get the 3pt shot (only thing he really needs). They all eventually do.

 

[urbetterthenme]

Why is John Wall not a MVP canidate?

 

[do work son]

I love Rubio's passing ability. Especially in the pick n roll. I think he's arguably the best at it.

Rubio will get the 3pt shot (only thing he really needs). They all eventually do.

I don't know how you assume that'll happen.

Not only has he been an awful perimeter shooter, he was going through stretches where he wasn't even finishing in the paint.