2013-2014 NBA Thread - IND @ WAS and OKC @ LAC on ESPN

[mister friendly]

Dirk,Wade,Pierce and Dwight aren't generational talents

1) The hell they're not. D Wade is the best undersized 2 guard ever arguably. Pierce isn't, but the celtics didn't get great until trading for KG and signing Ray Allen. Dirk Nowitzski is for sure a generational talent, dunno what you're talking about there we've never seen anything like him. And Dwight isn't a generational talent but the magic lucked up with that Homerun pick. Historically speaking, when you luck up and get a great 5 through the draft, you normally become a championship contender.

2) The teams of the players that you listed didn't get good until they started getting trades and signing free agents. The sentiment is still that Tanking hardly ever works and that the notion of "Rather be horrible than in the middle" in my opinion almost never works out.

A generational talent is a player like Duncan, Kobe or Lebron

Before that its guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and Shaq

DWade and Dirk arent a generational player like those guys.

 

[sea manup]

 

Yeah but what you're saying is a prescription for future mediocrity, like the Bucks of the last decade, or the Sonics for most of the 00's.  You MUST get that franchise player and for many teams that means you're going to have to land in the lottery.

How likely are you to get that Hall of Famer though? Would you prefer to be horrible for an entire decade or be average and 2nd round bound for that decade?

being horrible for a decade no question, at least then my team has a chance at getting a franchise player every year. either way if the team isnt winning championships its a waste of a season, its just that being bad gets you a chance at a franchise player and being average gets you nothing. if a team goes through a decade of top 10 picks and still doesnt find a way to get out of the nba basement then the team is hopeless anyways

 

[black migo]

theirs only an avg of 2-3 stars per draft, so tanking isnt really that valuable, plus its a "lottery" so the top spot isnt guaranteed

 

[osh kosh bosh]

dwight brought the magic to the finals, if that aint a generational talent I don't know what is, don't let post back surgery dwight fool you, Dwight was a monster, especially on Dwight got, Hedo, Jammer, Rashard to a top 3 defense no matter who was on the team.

 

[shoeking2101]

pacers, heat, clippers, OKC, spurs, warriors are all currently top NBA teams and without getting a great draft pick they would not be where they are today

unless you already have a superstar player developing, there is no reason to ever want to make the playoffs and be an average team

Heat were mediocre until Shaq got there....then were mediocre again when he left until Bron and bosh got there

Clips were mediocre until Chris Paul and other complimentary pieces got there

Pacers - Exception

OKC - Extremely lucky. Landed a HoF player to build around then followed that up with Russ and Harden

Spurs - See previous

So yes, in theory you are right to a degree. But my point is that unless you draft a Hall of Famer to build around, you're going to be a team with a cap of going to the 2nd round. It's rare to hit a home run through the draft and even then, in most cases that isn't what makes these franchises title contenders. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the draft is a crapshoot and you don't build a winner through the draft, so why tank for Draft position? It's baseless and starts a never ending cycle until you luck up and get a Tim Duncan, or a KD.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

A generational talent is a player like Duncan, Kobe or Lebron

Before that its guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and Shaq

DWade and Dirk arent a generational player like those guys.

your splitting the tinniest of hairs, the difference between, kobe, wade, dirk, is very small.

 

[sea manup]

 

 

Dirk,Wade,Pierce and Dwight aren't generational talents

1) The hell they're not. D Wade is the best undersized 2 guard ever arguably. Pierce isn't, but the celtics didn't get great until trading for KG and signing Ray Allen. Dirk Nowitzski is for sure a generational talent, dunno what you're talking about there

we've never seen anything like him. And Dwight isn't a generational talent but the magic lucked up with that Homerun pick. Historically speaking, when you luck up and get a great 5 through the draft, you normally become a championship contender.

2) The teams of the players that you listed didn't get good until they started getting trades and signing free agents. The sentiment is still that Tanking hardly ever works and that the notion of "Rather be horrible than in the middle" in my opinion almost never works out.

A generational talent is a player like Duncan, Kobe or Lebron

Before that its guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and Shaq

DWade and Dirk arent a generational player like those guys.

wade won a championship with shaq and is the reason lebron came to miami

dirk carried the mavs for the last 15 years and is the reason the mavs have their only championship

dwight put post tmac orlando on the map and lead his team to the finals

any team that lands a great player via the draft is in a much better place than they would be if they were to push for the playoffs that season and get nothing

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Heat were mediocre until Shaq got there....then were mediocre again when he left until Bron and bosh got there

Clips were mediocre until Chris Paul and other complimentary pieces got there

Pacers - Exception

OKC - Extremely lucky. Landed a HoF player to build around then followed that up with Russ and Harden

Spurs - See previous

So yes, in theory you are right to a degree. But my point is that unless you draft a Hall of Famer to build around, you're going to be a team with a cap of going to the 2nd round. It's rare to hit a home run through the draft and even then, in most cases that isn't what makes these franchises title contenders. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the draft is a crapshoot and you don't build a winner through the draft, so why tank for Draft position? It's baseless and starts a never ending cycle until you luck up and get a Tim Duncan, or a KD.

WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE.

People are getting this ****** up, nobody is saying drafting is a guarantee, or it doesn't involve a ton of luck, it is simply thye best of bad options.

 

[black migo]

You dont put up jordan-esque #s during your prime and not be a generational talent

 

[shoeking2101]

A generational talent is a player like Duncan, Kobe or Lebron

Before that its guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and Shaq

DWade and Dirk arent a generational player like those guys.

Says Kobe is a generational Talent but then says Dirk and Dwade aren't. Not sure if serious.

I'm not even saying that those guys are better than Kobe, but come on. Dirk is something we've never seen before. He's literally a once in a generation/lifetime player. D Wade is the same. In his prime? Are you serious?

 

[imlive365]

Yes he did.

The inaugural season, the Thunder averaged 18,693, which would be 97.7% capacity. http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2009

Kyle Weidie @Truth_About_It
Follow

Nene on physicality with Perkins: "That's all what that dude can do ... He had zero points, man... I don't want to go there." #wizards

3rd year in a row losing to the Wizards in DC and them breaking some type of win streak. We usually lose in Cleveland too

If you wanna go buy recorded numbers then Miami's stadium is fill up every single night which we know is not true.

 

[shoeking2101]

wade won a championship with shaq and is the reason lebron came to miami

dirk carried the mavs for the last 15 years and is the reason the mavs have their only championship

dwight put post tmac orlando on the map and lead his team to the finals


any team that lands a great player via the draft is in a much better place than they would be if they were to push for the playoffs that season and get nothing

So in essence, you're saying suck suck suck suck until we randomly get lucky and land a Hall of Fame talent? This is just where we're going to have to disagree because I don't reside with that notion.

 

[100027]

To say that Dirk Nowitzki, still playing at a star level who is:

-#13 all-time in scoring (will be higher when his career is over)

-#16 all-time playoff scoring, playoff averages of 26pts 10rbs on 46% shooting (will be higher when his is over)

-Carried a franchise for a generation

-One of the only players in the last generation to carry a team to a championship as the only star

-Greatest foreign player of all time

-Undisputed top 5 at the PF position

-League MVP

Isn't a generational talent is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard on this forum.

Not to mention that the way his play redefined the scoring/shooting big man role is the definition of generational.

 

[sea manup]

 

pacers, heat, clippers, OKC, spurs, warriors are all currently top NBA teams and without getting a great draft pick they would not be where they are today

unless you already have a superstar player developing, there is no reason to ever want to make the playoffs and be an average team

Heat were mediocre until Shaq got there....then were mediocre again when he left until Bron and bosh got there

Clips were mediocre until Chris Paul and other complimentary pieces got there

Pacers - Exception

OKC - Extremely lucky. Landed a HoF player to build around then followed that up with Russ and Harden

Spurs - See previous

So yes, in theory you are right to a degree. But my point is that unless you draft a Hall of Famer to build around, you're going to be a team with a cap of going to the 2nd round. It's rare to hit a home run through the draft and even then, in most cases that isn't what makes these franchises title contenders. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the draft is a crapshoot and you don't build a winner through the draft, so why tank for Draft position? It's baseless and starts a never ending cycle until you luck up and get a Tim Duncan, or a KD.

without wade already being there shaq would not have won anything in miami, lebron and bosh would have never came

chris paul is not staying with the clippers with out blake griffin already being there, without blake the team is as bad as his hornets teams

washington would be extra trash right now if they didnt have wall to build around

ask any kings fan if whether or not their team is better off after drafting demarcus

iverson wanted to go to denver because carmelo was already there

when you draft a top 10 player in the league it will attract other top players and make your team better than it was before

 

[imlive365]

And another thing, it wasn't the heat who started the team up, it was the celtics, why don't you cry to them?
the only thing you can win by yourself in the nba are MVP's, and bron has plenty of those. To win a championship, you need a TEAM......no one man whether mj, kobe, duncan can win a championship on their own.

This post still baffles me hours later.

There's no point if even arguing with dudes like this. They think one thing and one thing only all the hate gets in there way. Acting like mj did it all by himself. Foh

 

[shoeking2101]

WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE.

People are getting this ****** up, nobody is saying drafting is a guarantee, or it doesn't involve a ton of luck, it is simply the best of bad options.

The other option is to put a competitive competent product on the floor. I don't wanna see a team be terrible with no end in sight until we magically get a Tim Duncan That's just me. I completely understand the sentiment of being bad until you get great. I understand it. The benefits of landing a Dwight Howard is huge. Can change the direction of your franchise for the next 15 years. However, FOR ME, I would rather be competitive whenever I can than be horrible.

 

[shoeking2101]

To say that Dirk Nowitzki, still playing at a star level who is:

-#13 all-time in scoring (will be higher when his career is over)
-#16 all-time playoff scoring, playoff averages of 26pts 10rbs on 46% shooting (will be higher when his is over)
-Carried a franchise for a generation
-One of the only players in the last generation to carry a team to a championship as the only star
-Greatest foreign player of all time
-Undisputed top 5 at the PF position
-League MVP

Isn't a generational talent is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard on this forum.

Not to mention that the way his play redefined the scoring/shooting big man role is the definition of generational.

Thank god only one person on NT disagreed with me when I called him a generational talent. I thought it was common sense

 

[essential1]

Health care conversations... Almost started to type, realized which thread I was in.

 

[sea manup]

 

wade won a championship with shaq and is the reason lebron came to miami

dirk carried the mavs for the last 15 years and is the reason the mavs have their only championship

dwight put post tmac orlando on the map and lead his team to the finals


any team that lands a great player via the draft is in a much better place than they would be if they were to push for the playoffs that season and get nothing

So in essence, you're saying suck suck suck suck until we randomly get lucky and land a Hall of Fame talent? This is just where we're going to have to disagree because I don't reside with that notion.

how is it random? there is more information than ever out there about each of these prospects, i can probably spend an hour on google and know more about wiggins and jabari than i do any of my highschool classmates. there are teams that get great picks every year, rockets, thunder, spurs, indiana to name a few. if there is a competent front office, there is less need for luck. 

it is impossible to win a championship ONLY through trades and free agent signings, drafting is the most important but not the only factor that is needed to build a good team

 

[$tacy]

And another thing, it wasn't the heat who started the team up, it was the celtics, why don't you cry to them?
the only thing you can win by yourself in the nba are MVP's, and bron has plenty of those. To win a championship, you need a TEAM......no one man whether mj, kobe, duncan can win a championship on their own.

This post still baffles me hours later.

Nah the heat started that. Them ****** all contacted each other before hand and talked about what they were gonna do. They knew they were all free agents and all wanted to play together, now everyone wants melo to call up another big name player and ask to be teammates.

 

[shoeking2101]

without wade already being there shaq would not have won anything in miami, lebron and bosh would have never came

chris paul is not staying with the clippers with out blake griffin already being there, without blake the team is as bad as his hornets teams

washington would be extra trash right now if they didnt have wall to build around

ask any kings fan if whether or not their team is better off after drafting demarcus

iverson wanted to go to denver because carmelo was already there


when you draft a top 10 player in the league it will attract other top players and make your team better than it was before

This much is true. However there are like 60 or so players drafted every year. Most of those players will not amount to a top 10 talent.

I get what you're saying, but we're talking about being championship level competitive. So unless you get lucky and draft a player that pans out, you'll end up being average anyway.

You said Washington and The Kings. Perfect examples. They've been in the cellar for years, lucked up and got DMC and John Wall. Neither of them had made the playoffs and The Kings aren't even close. So by your logic (And I may be using it wrong) they are actually worse off with those guys because in all likelihood, the ceiling on a John Wall or DMC led team is the 2nd round. And that's if everything goes perfect. Now if they draft well, then maybe that changes but DMC and Wall prove my point. Tanking does not guarantee anything especially if you have championship aspirations.

 

[pmatic]

You want to ignore the draft and put a priority on free agency and trades, you'll end up like the Knicks the past ten years and Lakers the last three-four years.

 

[mister friendly]

A generational talent is a player like Duncan, Kobe or Lebron

Before that its guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem and Shaq

DWade and Dirk arent a generational player like those guys.

your splitting the tinniest of hairs, the difference between, kobe, wade, dirk, is very small.

Whats the cuttoff between a generational player and a Hall of Famer then

 

[shoeking2101]

how is it random? there is more information than ever out there about each of these prospects, i can probably spend an hour on google and know more about wiggins and jabari than i do any of my highschool classmates. there are teams that get great picks every year, rockets, thunder, spurs, indiana to name a few. if there is a competent front office, there is less need for luck. 

it is impossible to win a championship ONLY through trades and free agent signings, drafting is the most important but not the only factor that is needed to build a good team

It's random because no matter how much research you do, you have no idea how these players will pan out in the league. And I guess I'll just disagree with you on this because Drafting is not the most important factor in building a champion IMO. Sure, if you land a home run in the draft like a blake griffin or a Lebron James or a Dwyane Wade then yeah it is because it's a cornerstone to build around. But how likely is that to happen? How likely are you to draft a player that is that great?

 

[bhzmafia14]

The Pelicans is one team that's been pretty stupid IMO. Instead of them building off the Anthony Davis draft, they decide to use their #6 pick and traded a future 1st (top 5 protected) to acquire Jrue Holiday. In their case, they rushed their rebuilding process. They matched the offer for Eric Gordon, went and offered $11M a year to Tyreke, traded for Jrue using their #6 pick. I mean, why are you rushing?

Why not draft Trey Burke or MCW? Why try to rush the rebuilding process for a player like Holiday that's not going to change your franchise? A solid draft pick last year and another solid pick in this year's draft would finish off their rebuilding process. NOW, they can add those veterans around Davis, their 2013 pick, 2014 pick, Ryan Anderson and others.