QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson

[coltfanb]

this debate wont end for a while just like Peyton/Brady is still being discussed today when it is clear and evident that peyton manning is by far the better qb. brady has 3 super bowls, yes i know, but also had BB on his side his whole career and not too mention that patriots defense in the early 2000s was amazing (not too mention the best camera man to ever live). It's similar to luck vs wilson and it is very evident that luck is also the better qb. Wilson is definitely a top 5 qb and has done great things through out his career, but that super bowl couldve been won by some qbs in the league last year if they had that defense on their team.

 

[dmxfury]

It's hard to word but it's like Peyton is a better QB but Tom has played a better career as a QB (but he isn't a better QB in spite of this). Kind of a weird play on words


All these QBs can and do win, situations they are placed in is critical

 

[coltfanb]

It's hard to word but it's like Peyton is a better QB but Tom has played a better career as a QB (but he isn't a better QB in spite of this). Kind of a weird play on words



All these QBs can and do win, situations they are placed in is critical

makes sense, emmitt smith had a better career then barry sanders, but barry is obviously the better rb

 

[100027]

this debate wont end for a while just like Peyton/Brady is still being discussed today when it is clear and evident that peyton manning is by far the better qb. brady has 3 super bowls, yes i know, but also had BB on his side his whole career and not too mention that patriots defense in the early 2000s was amazing (not too mention the best camera man to ever live). It's similar to luck vs wilson and it is very evident that luck is also the better qb. Wilson is definitely a top 5 qb and has done great things through out his career, but that super bowl couldve been won by some qbs in the league last year if they had that defense on their team.

"Brady had Belicheck".  I don't like the argument.

Peyton had the best skill position players in the league almost every year he's been in the league.  Both the Colts and Broncos were 100% devoted to providing talent that made him look better.  Belicheck has given Brady scraps to work with many seasons and looked at him to make the team succeed. When they finally did provide him with elite playmaking talent, he set records.

Peyton has had elite playmaking talent his entire career.  Who says Brady hasn't made Belicheck what he is?  

Brady was a better QB than Manning, and his career is better than Manning's.

 

[DeadsetAce]

this debate wont end for a while just like Peyton/Brady is still being discussed today when it is clear and evident that peyton manning is by far the better qb. brady has 3 super bowls, yes i know, but also had BB on his side his whole career and not too mention that patriots defense in the early 2000s was amazing (not too mention the best camera man to ever live). It's similar to luck vs wilson and it is very evident that luck is also the better qb. Wilson is definitely a top 5 qb and has done great things through out his career, but that super bowl couldve been won by some qbs in the league last year if they had that defense on their team.

LMAOOOOO

 

[coltfanb]

"Brady had Belicheck".  I don't like the argument.



Peyton had the best skill position players in the league almost every year he's been in the league.  Both the Colts and Broncos were 100% devoted to providing talent that made him look better.  Belicheck has given Brady scraps to work with many seasons and looked at him to make the team succeed. When they finally did provide him with elite playmaking talent, he set records.


Peyton has had elite playmaking talent his entire career.  Who says Brady hasn't made Belicheck what he is?  



Brady was a better QB than Manning, and his career is better than Manning's.

I honestly can care less if you like the arguement or not, Its the truth. I didnt even throw in the fact that they got caught cheating as well which im sure was a big help to tom

 

[100027]

 

 
"Brady had Belicheck".  I don't like the argument.

Peyton had the best skill position players in the league almost every year he's been in the league.  Both the Colts and Broncos were 100% devoted to providing talent that made him look better.  Belicheck has given Brady scraps to work with many seasons and looked at him to make the team succeed. When they finally did provide him with elite playmaking talent, he set records.

Peyton has had elite playmaking talent his entire career.  Who says Brady hasn't made Belicheck what he is?  

Brady was a better QB than Manning, and his career is better than Manning's.

I honestly can care less if you like the arguement or not, Its the truth. I didnt even throw in the fact that they got caught cheating as well which im sure was a big help to tom

The fact that he's won 3 Super Bowls and been to 5 without his entire team being built to make him look good is a big help to Tom as well.

 

[dmxfury]

It isn't like Tom had scrub teams around him in those 3 SB wins. Those 03/04 teams were phenomenal. Really the more he did/does the less they won (which often happens with all QBs)

 

[100027]

It isn't like Tom had scrub teams around him in those 3 SB wins. That 04 team was phenomenal. Really the more he did/does the less they won (which often happens with all QBs)

Of course.  You can't win a Super Bowl on your own.  

In terms of Tom's overall career however, he has played on some teams with average talent.

 

[coltfanb]

The fact that he's won 3 Super Bowls and been to 5 without his entire team being built to make him look good is a big help to Tom as well.

the fact that matt cassel won 10 games in 2008 when tom brady went down says alot about BB and how good of a coach he is... Tom brady is still one of the greats not better then peyton though... Peyton went down in 2011 and that team won 2 games, if Peyton was playing that year that team is in the playoffs easily...

 

[dmxfury]

The Pats built their team to give the TEAM the best chance to succeed by being good all around and not just giving Tom offensive weapons. While this hurts TBs stats, it help his wins and championships (which is the go to when saying how good he is). Colts built their team to maximize Peyton's stats, and in their mind give the team the best chance to win (whether that was smart is very debatable)


It's up to each of us to weigh these factors to decide who we think is better. But shows how the FO mentality can affect an individual player and his legacy

 

[Chester McFloppy]

If people don't take anything from the last few pages... this right here:

The bottom line right now is that I’m honestly not sure which guy I’d pick if I had the chance of starting my franchise from scratch, but that it looks like you’d be in great hands with either one, and that bodes very well for the next decade of NFL action.

Sit back and enjoy the show.

 

[CP1708]

I have compared RWs on field perfomance/situation to Ben's but I like that Aikman comparison.


CP, after everything you looked at over the years, does it point to Dan being the best QB?

There’s no way that I can make that claim legitimately.

Singularly, as a player, he could be. He’s one of the loneliest athletes I’ve ever seen. No joking, Shula (at the end of his career as a coach) is the best asset Dan ever had.

Clayton and Duper were great, but for like 5 years total before coke got Duper, and Clayton started to slow down quite a bit. Aging Fryar was brought in, aging Keith Jackson, Mark Ingram, etc.

The RB spot…….I cry at night sometimes thinking about it. Sammie Smith. ( ) Mark Higgs (???) Bernie Parmalee. Do you guys realize Bernie Parmalee was a UPS worker who would deliver to the Dolphins stadium, and was given the job as the starting running back? Bernie, the UPS worker. **** me in the earhole. I mean, was Don dead and we didn’t know it? Old man Bobby Humphrey was brought in after Denver. Keith Byars. The only guys that had talent and were young still that I can think of were OJ McDuffie and Terry Kirby. A slot WR, and a RB who was better as a receiver. And that’s just on offense. On defense, they were giving up 50 point games to Ken O’Brien. Shula wasted over a decade of draft picks on total trash. It’s soul crushing the amount of nothing they surrounded Dan with, meanwhile Jim Kelly is in Buffalo of all places, and he’s got Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas (who we passed on (for the love of God)), Daryl Talley, all of them played several years together, and we constantly tried to piece meal guys for Dan instead of actually building a core around him. By the time Jimmy got there, he drafted Yatil Green who blew his knee out back to back years in preseason camp, Oronde Gadsden from arena football I think, he traded out of the spot he could have taken Randy Moss at, but he was able to at least build a true, legit defense. By then, Dan was done. Like 2 years later they get Ricky Williams. I mean, ****. By 2002 they have a great defense, and an elite RB, and Dan’s retired. Jay Fiedler was now winning 11 games, but in 15 years they couldn’t do any of that for Dan.

You add it all up, Dan was forever behind, with no run game, and no defense. Every single team he faced, KNEW each play was a pass, and he still threw it around with ease. In an era where passing was down a ton compared to today.

So, really, what can I say? Unless we play hypotheticals, what I can argue for Dan? If he had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, Tom Rathman, and Brent Jones, with a defense & Bill Walsh, am I supposed to believe that Dan would be ringless right now? That THAT core, wouldn’t have done some stupid **** in the 80’s? Joe was cool as could be, but he wasn’t the sheer talent that Dan was. I don’t even know if Joe lifted weights, or ran anything other than a 5.0 40. (Dan probably ran like a 4 minute 40 if I’m bein honest tho ) But you get my point, Joe was an average looking guy, who was smart, calm, poised, and got the ball to his players and let them do their jobs. Give freaking Jerry Rice to Dan for 10 years, tell me what that looks like to a defense.

Again, that’s hypothetical. No way I can prove what could have been. It “looked” like Dan had the perfect set up as a young guy, but view their drafts from 84 on up. Whole lotta nothing until 96 when Jimmy got there. Dan was in his mid 30’s by then, and injuries were mounting on him.


From what I’ve seen of everyone, from Peyton’s constant career of elite weapons, to Tom’s defense/coach/then weapons, to Joe’s weapons, Aikman’s, Jim Kelly’s, Elway’s sudden late success once he was given a Terrell Davis, Dan put up numbers compared to all of them, and was in the conversation every year for over a dozen years, even tho he was always a one man team with retread pieces. He still put the fear of God in every team, and stole plenty of games depending on if he got the ball last or not (like the opener in 94, or the fake spike game)

I look now at this kid I got in Tannehill, I could care less how he does his job, I want the entire team around him LOADED, so he can just do what he needs to do. I had enough of an elite QB, with no one to help him. Get me a run game, an Oline that can keep the QB alive, and help with that run game, some speed at WR to help open up the defense and stretch the field, get me a pass rush, a solid secondary, a decent LB core to stop the run, a kicker, a solid punter, and a coach that can max all those guys out and give just enough help to Ryan. After that, I’ll take my chances. I know how it works when you don’t have any of that, and a ridiculous QB talent.

 

[a55a5in11]

Peyton has all the weapons and Brady rarely had any = Peyton is the better
Wilson has all the weapons and Luck rarely has any = Luck is the better
Now how the **** does this make any sense

 

[coltfanb]

There’s no way that I can make that claim legitimately.


Singularly, as a player, he could be. He’s one of the loneliest athletes I’ve ever seen. No joking, Shula (at the end of his career as a coach) is the best asset Dan ever had.


Clayton and Duper were great, but for like 5 years total before coke got Duper, and Clayton started to slow down quite a bit. Aging Fryar was brought in, aging Keith Jackson, Mark Ingram, etc.


The RB spot…….I cry at night sometimes thinking about it. Sammie Smith. (

) Mark Higgs (???) Bernie Parmalee. Do you guys realize Bernie Parmalee was a UPS worker who would deliver to the Dolphins stadium, and was given the job as the starting running back? Bernie, the UPS worker. **** me in the earhole. I mean, was Don dead and we didn’t know it? Old man Bobby Humphrey was brought in after Denver. Keith Byars. The only guys that had talent and were young still that I can think of were OJ McDuffie and Terry Kirby. A slot WR, and a RB who was better as a receiver.

And that’s just on offense. On defense, they were giving up 50 point games to Ken O’Brien. Shula wasted over a decade of draft picks on total trash. It’s soul crushing the amount of nothing they surrounded Dan with, meanwhile Jim Kelly is in Buffalo of all places, and he’s got Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas (who we passed on (for the love of God)), Daryl Talley, all of them played several years together, and we constantly tried to piece meal guys for Dan instead of actually building a core around him.

By the time Jimmy got there, he drafted Yatil Green who blew his knee out back to back years in preseason camp, Oronde Gadsden from arena football I think, he traded out of the spot he could have taken Randy Moss at, but he was able to at least build a true, legit defense. By then, Dan was done. Like 2 years later they get Ricky Williams. I mean, ****.

By 2002 they have a great defense, and an elite RB, and Dan’s retired. Jay Fiedler was now winning 11 games, but in 15 years they couldn’t do any of that for Dan.

You add it all up, Dan was forever behind, with no run game, and no defense. Every single team he faced, KNEW each play was a pass, and he still threw it around with ease. In an era where passing was down a ton compared to today.


So, really, what can I say? Unless we play hypotheticals, what I can argue for Dan? If he had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, Tom Rathman, and Brent Jones, with a defense & Bill Walsh, am I supposed to believe that Dan would be ringless right now? That THAT core, wouldn’t have done some stupid **** in the 80’s? Joe was cool as could be, but he wasn’t the sheer talent that Dan was. I don’t even know if Joe lifted weights, or ran anything other than a 5.0 40. (Dan probably ran like a 4 minute 40 if I’m bein honest tho

) But you get my point, Joe was an average looking guy, who was smart, calm, poised, and got the ball to his players and let them do their jobs. Give freaking Jerry Rice to Dan for 10 years, tell me what that looks like to a defense.

Again, that’s hypothetical. No way I can prove what could have been. It “looked” like Dan had the perfect set up as a young guy, but view their drafts from 84 on up. Whole lotta nothing until 96 when Jimmy got there. Dan was in his mid 30’s by then, and injuries were mounting on him.



From what I’ve seen of everyone, from Peyton’s constant career of elite weapons, to Tom’s defense/coach/then weapons, to Joe’s weapons, Aikman’s, Jim Kelly’s, Elway’s sudden late success once he was given a Terrell Davis, Dan put up numbers compared to all of them, and was in the conversation every year for over a dozen years, even tho he was always a one man team with retread pieces. He still put the fear of God in every team, and stole plenty of games depending on if he got the ball last or not (like the opener in 94, or the fake spike game)


I look now at this kid I got in Tannehill, I could care less how he does his job, I want the entire team around him LOADED, so he can just do what he needs to do. I had enough of an elite QB, with no one to help him. Get me a run game, an Oline that can keep the QB alive, and help with that run game, some speed at WR to help open up the defense and stretch the field, get me a pass rush, a solid secondary, a decent LB core to stop the run, a kicker, a solid punter, and a coach that can max all those guys out and give just enough help to Ryan. After that, I’ll take my chances. I know how it works when you don’t have any of that, and a ridiculous QB talent.

in that last paragraph your basically saying you want tanny to be just like russ...

 

[coltfanb]

Peyton has all the weapons and Brady rarely had any = Peyton is the better

Wilson has all the weapons and Luck rarely has any = Luck is the better

Now how the **** does this make any sense

russ doesnt have better weapons then luck does, he has a better rb and probably a top 5 defense all time. id rather have that defense then any weapons to be honest... but it doesnt really matter luck is gonna win regardless...

 

[coltfanb]

luck can make any team a contender, rergardless of who is playing wr or rb... i mean look what he did last year when he had TY, DHB, darick rogers, and lavon brazill at wr and trent and donald brown as his rbs... oh and dont forget griff whalen

 

[fraij da 5 11]

I knew my guy AR touched 200 career TD's last week but I just saw he has 53 interceptions. 

 37 fewer than the next lowest (Brady) at 200 TD's. 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Sorry to interrupt Russ vs Luck vs Alex Smith talk... Carry on.

 

[Chester McFloppy]

Alex Smith > Aaron Rodgers

 

[fraij da 5 11]

Alex Smith > Aaron Rodgers

 

[CP1708]

in that last paragraph your basically saying you want tanny to be just like russ...

I want Tanne to be like Russ, Dilfer, Ben, Eli, Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Peyton, Elway, Aikman, Jeff Hosteler, etc etc etc.

Tanne, Matt Moore, Pat Devlin, I don't give a crap, I just want the franchise to win a SB. How, or why, I don't care. Like I said, I saw what a team with an Elite QB and nothing else looks like. Saw it for over a decade. Now I'm ready to see how it works the other way.

 

[Chester McFloppy]

Alex Smith > Aaron Rodgers

 

[fraij da 5 11]

HHH's heart is going to detonate one of these days in the ring.

 

[100027]

luck can make any team a contender, rergardless of who is playing wr or rb... i mean look what he did last year when he had TY, DHB, darick rogers, and lavon brazill at wr and trent and donald brown as his rbs... oh and dont forget griff whalen

AFC South contenders?

 

[CP1708]

this debate wont end for a while just like Peyton/Brady is still being discussed today when it is clear and evident that peyton manning is by far the better qb. brady has 3 super bowls, yes i know, but also had BB on his side his whole career and not too mention that patriots defense in the early 2000s was amazing (not too mention the best camera man to ever live). It's similar to luck vs wilson and it is very evident that luck is also the better qb. Wilson is definitely a top 5 qb and has done great things through out his career, but that super bowl couldve been won by some qbs in the league last year if they had that defense on their team.

"Brady had Belicheck".  I don't like the argument.

Peyton had the best skill position players in the league almost every year he's been in the league.  Both the Colts and Broncos were 100% devoted to providing talent that made him look better.  Belicheck has given Brady scraps to work with many seasons and looked at him to make the team succeed. When they finally did provide him with elite playmaking talent, he set records.


Peyton has had elite playmaking talent his entire career.  Who says Brady hasn't made Belicheck what he is?  

Brady was a better QB than Manning, and his career is better than Manning's.

Found something we agree on.

I've noticed in each instance for myself, with Dan and Joe, Tom and Peyton, Russ and Luck, I've taken the guy with the "lesser" talent around him. Doesn't mean I don't think Joe, Peyton and Russ are great, just that I believe the guys with less toys could be greater when given more toys. (like Tom getting Moss/Welker and obliterating records everywhere, and being a helmet catch away from 19-0)