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It is really hard to compare numbers, unfortunate since AR could stack up with anyone IMO. Has the talent to be a top three type guy all time but career still has to continue and finish strong
QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by 651akathepaul,
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Sometimes I love you man then I think about how many times you and CP hype up Luck and he has a 1-2 postseason record.
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I know you know football better than that Chester. Just watching him play tell's you the stats come from something tangible.
AR out there making throws and plays that no one else is making on a weekly basis.
I just said that he needs another February win (which would = at least 3 more of those post season wins) so relax thinking I'm calling him the GOAT right now.
You too, DSA. Lets not forget either that the 2 main arguments for GOAT right now have had their own struggles in the playoffs though. Peytons 11-12 in the playoffs and Brady hasn't won an SB in a decade. So lets not pretend like getting even 1 SB is easy.
And Ches don't feed me that BS like AR is the only one playing in the inflated QB era.
AR out there making throws and plays that no one else is making on a weekly basis.
I just said that he needs another February win (which would = at least 3 more of those post season wins) so relax thinking I'm calling him the GOAT right now.
You too, DSA. Lets not forget either that the 2 main arguments for GOAT right now have had their own struggles in the playoffs though. Peytons 11-12 in the playoffs and Brady hasn't won an SB in a decade. So lets not pretend like getting even 1 SB is easy.
And Ches don't feed me that BS like AR is the only one playing in the inflated QB era.
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No one is denying his talent or the fact that he's the best QB currently in the NFL. A joy to watch (tho **** the Packers).
No one is saying that, if he continues at this level, he COULD end up as one of the greats.
I'm just saying to pump the brakes.
No one is saying that, if he continues at this level, he COULD end up as one of the greats.
I'm just saying to pump the brakes.
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I kinda hate when people bring up inflated passing numbers and how easy it is to pass nowadays.
If it was that damn easy everyone would do it.
If you want to make the argument numbers for the elite are higher now I'd agree
But a bum quarterback today is a bum quarterback 10, 15, 20 years ago.
If it was that damn easy everyone would do it.
If you want to make the argument numbers for the elite are higher now I'd agree
But a bum quarterback today is a bum quarterback 10, 15, 20 years ago.
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But I'm not on the gas.
Its unreasonable to assume that he'll have little to no success in the playoffs for the rest of his career. Agree?
LIS hes got the same amount of SB's as Peyton whos got a losing record in the playoffs yet is considered by many (including myself) to be the best QB of all time. Peyton's pre-snap is undeniably the best ever. There's not a debate there to my knowledge.
AR been making unique throws for 4-5 years now... Biggest improvement in his game is those pre-snap adjustments and command of the O.
Speaking on inflated numbers - Like Sneakerpro just said, a bum QB today is a bum QB 20 years ago, and one thing that will never change is that you want a QB that is efficient. I cant see any argument that any QB in history has been more efficient than Rodgers. Its a fact that Turnover ratio is one of the biggest factors in football that directly relates to winning games...
LIS hes got the same amount of SB's as Peyton whos got a losing record in the playoffs yet is considered by many (including myself) to be the best QB of all time. Peyton's pre-snap is undeniably the best ever. There's not a debate there to my knowledge.
AR been making unique throws for 4-5 years now... Biggest improvement in his game is those pre-snap adjustments and command of the O.
Speaking on inflated numbers - Like Sneakerpro just said, a bum QB today is a bum QB 20 years ago, and one thing that will never change is that you want a QB that is efficient. I cant see any argument that any QB in history has been more efficient than Rodgers. Its a fact that Turnover ratio is one of the biggest factors in football that directly relates to winning games...
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I really have nothing to say to people that are blind to the fact that numbers these days are inflated.
Like, the numbers are there. The math is there. The records are there. Educate yourselves.
Rodgers is incredibly efficient, it's one of his best traits. It was much harder to throw TDs/complete passes back in the days when DBs could play defense, but eh, I'm just bringing up those pesky numbers again.
Like, the numbers are there. The math is there. The records are there. Educate yourselves.
Rodgers is incredibly efficient, it's one of his best traits. It was much harder to throw TDs/complete passes back in the days when DBs could play defense, but eh, I'm just bringing up those pesky numbers again.
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Passing and offensive numbers hit new highs every year. So everyone seemingly can do it. But of course the better QBs will be the tops of the lists when comparing all the QBs to each other year by year.
I hate that these record passing yards, TO differential, etc numbers can't (or shouldn't) be compared to players of the past because of the massive effect of rule changes. Hard to quantify how much of ARs passing records are him or him in this era. What effect does the era have? That's the unknown variable
This isn't about Aaron but all QBs. I mean is anyone really as impressed by Manning's TD record may year vs his 04 season (or Marino before that)? Does anyone really believe 2013 Peyton was a better QB than those years?
I hate that these record passing yards, TO differential, etc numbers can't (or shouldn't) be compared to players of the past because of the massive effect of rule changes. Hard to quantify how much of ARs passing records are him or him in this era. What effect does the era have? That's the unknown variable
This isn't about Aaron but all QBs. I mean is anyone really as impressed by Manning's TD record may year vs his 04 season (or Marino before that)? Does anyone really believe 2013 Peyton was a better QB than those years?
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Okay... Again, no one is blind to the fact that numbers now are more "impressive" than 20-40 years ago.
The point I'm making is 2 of the main candidates for "GOAT QB" are Tom and Peyton, yea?
Obviously 7/10 of the top TD:INT guys are from this inflated numbers era and 1 of the other 3 just retired 3 years ago...
Yet, still its not a comparison from 1st to 2nd place.
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Yes, hes gotta win in the playoffs and possibly/probably get another SB, there's no doubt in my mind that he'll keep up the regular season work though.
Speaking of the SB thing though, where does that leave Russell and Trent Dilfer?
The point I'm making is 2 of the main candidates for "GOAT QB" are Tom and Peyton, yea?
Obviously 7/10 of the top TD:INT guys are from this inflated numbers era and 1 of the other 3 just retired 3 years ago...
Yet, still its not a comparison from 1st to 2nd place.
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I agree that inflated numbers like yards really dont matter at this point across "era's", even the amount of TD's throw isn't a huge deal, QB's been hitting/near hitting 50 TD's in a season only in the last 10 years. Marino's 2nd year when he went for 48 or whatever it was 30 years ago is insane. I think Marino is much closer to GOAT QB than most who automatically hit up wikipedia and search the "QB SB RINGS" tab. Dan was the "arm talent" guy before there were arm talent guys.
Yes, hes gotta win in the playoffs and possibly/probably get another SB, there's no doubt in my mind that he'll keep up the regular season work though.
Speaking of the SB thing though, where does that leave Russell and Trent Dilfer?
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Sometimes I love you man then I think about how many times you and CP hype up Luck and he has a 1-2 postseason record.
Remind me of all of the times when I've said Luck belongs on the QB Mount Rushmore and/or is one of the GOATs.
I'll wait.
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Already said it a million times but Marino is the GOAT in my eyes. Pretty much the prototypical QB that could hit every throw on the field.
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Where is @CP1708 to make sense of this?Already said it a million times but Marino is the GOAT in my eyes. Pretty much the prototypical QB that could hit every throw on the field.
The reason people say they love watching Rodgers play is exactly this. As I said he makes throws on a weekly basis that no one else in the league is making and also makes the ones that they are making...
You just told me AR needs playoff wins and more SB rings to before hes carved into the QB Mount Rushmore but then say that Marino was the GOAT becuase of his arm when he only went to 1 SB and lost it by 22 points to San Fran.
Which is it? I'm still not even trying to argue that AR is the GOAT right now but you're contradicting yourself in those statements. Although IMO its safe to say that to this point Marino had the best arm of all time.
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When it comes to someone at Rodgers level, you have to acknowledge the gap between talent and legacy/performance. Is he the most talented of all time? He's in the discussion. Is he the greatest of all time? Not even close. I doubt he ever will be based on what he has accomplished so far in his career.
Marino too but I'm staying away from that rage train certain posting couples will bring down.
Marino too but I'm staying away from that rage train certain posting couples will bring down.
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He's only been starting for 6 years. I think you're right about the discussion about talent.
He's top 3 pre snap among current peers and without question the most talented physically, even when comparing him to Brady/Peyton's prime's.
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I'm sorry fraij, I don't have a checklist that I go down with my personal QB rankings. Marino is the best QB I've ever seen play, period, and that's why he's my GOAT. Every QB is ranked and rated differently for various reasons. Some it's postseason success, others it's records, others it's because how they play the position, etc.
Aaron Rodgers hasn't done enough in his time to crack my list. Yet. He's in my Steve Young/Kurt Warner category, which I'm sorry that it's not quite 'crowning him,' but its a good group to be included with.
Aaron Rodgers hasn't done enough in his time to crack my list. Yet. He's in my Steve Young/Kurt Warner category, which I'm sorry that it's not quite 'crowning him,' but its a good group to be included with.
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Obviously saying I doubt he will be is a huge guess. If the Packers can get back to winning playoff games, win another SB, and he has multiple more years like this one he'll be right up there.
Compared to the Manning or Brady legacies he has a daunting hill to climb for sure though. Though he's probably more talented than both.
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I don't even think you can compare ARs career numbers with Tom and Peyton. So much has changed, even within the time of their career. Passing yards are jumping so much year after year that using TB/PM stats from 2002 aren't relevant. Forget 20-30 years ago being different, try 5 years ago. It sucks because discussions like this become FAR more difficult. Roger loves his fantasy numbers
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Everyone is going to have a different opinion on this matter, so honestly, we'll just keep circling and spinning our wheels without going anywhere.
Some like SBs.
Some like postseason success.
Some like MVPs.
Some like stats and numbers.
Some use the eye test.
Some use the era they play in.
Some use the level of competition.
Some use all of the above.
Some use none of the above.
Some use some of the above.
To become the GOAT in something, you need to destroy many of those categories. There really isn't an MJ of football at this point. Montana had all the postseason success, never lost a SB, but mediocre numbers + a stacked 49ers team, Brady has a bit of everything but Spygate + losing SBs, Manning has the records but not the rings, Bradshaw has the rings but not the numbers, Warner had the numbers but a short career, Elway had ****** numbers until his last couple seasons and won a couple rings before retiring, Favre was the man but then he sent **** pics, etc etc etc
Some like SBs.
Some like postseason success.
Some like MVPs.
Some like stats and numbers.
Some use the eye test.
Some use the era they play in.
Some use the level of competition.
Some use all of the above.
Some use none of the above.
Some use some of the above.
To become the GOAT in something, you need to destroy many of those categories. There really isn't an MJ of football at this point. Montana had all the postseason success, never lost a SB, but mediocre numbers + a stacked 49ers team, Brady has a bit of everything but Spygate + losing SBs, Manning has the records but not the rings, Bradshaw has the rings but not the numbers, Warner had the numbers but a short career, Elway had ****** numbers until his last couple seasons and won a couple rings before retiring, Favre was the man but then he sent **** pics, etc etc etc
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I've made similar claims that Chester is making, he's a little harder on Rodgers than I am tho. 
Dan played in a tougher to throw era, with no run game, and no defense. And even his receivers were better than decent, but nothing ridiculous.
Yet when he hung em up, he had every record, ever.
Give Dan a top flight receiver, a run game, and a defense, any era, and what do you think changes for him, as a QB? Success.
His numbers would still be there, but his success would be insane.
And if he played in this era, ****......................
For AR tho, I love that guy. To me, he is truly special, and I love watching him play. I look forward to the next 3-4 years to really break down the numbers and see where he slots overall. Let's just say, he's going to be on my short list, without question, if he maintains the next 3-4 years. And I think he will.
Dan played in a tougher to throw era, with no run game, and no defense. And even his receivers were better than decent, but nothing ridiculous.
Yet when he hung em up, he had every record, ever.
Give Dan a top flight receiver, a run game, and a defense, any era, and what do you think changes for him, as a QB? Success.
His numbers would still be there, but his success would be insane.
And if he played in this era, ****......................
For AR tho, I love that guy. To me, he is truly special, and I love watching him play. I look forward to the next 3-4 years to really break down the numbers and see where he slots overall. Let's just say, he's going to be on my short list, without question, if he maintains the next 3-4 years. And I think he will.
DeadsetAce
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SB rings don't tell nearly the entire story...but how can they not be part of it? arm, IQ, clutch factor, leadership, ring, and winning percentage...all part of the story. some weigh certain factors more than others. Rodgers still has a bunch of years in the tank. he's on track to be in the discussion.
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Brady
Yo Kurt Warner is an interesting one though, obviously his career is too weird to be considered the GOAT, but he had a few of the most stunning single season performances I've ever seen.
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My top 5 in some order, right now, gun to my head would be something like Brady, Rodgers, Marino, Elway, and either Peyton or Warner. Joe, Favre, Brees, just on the outside of those, and someday, in the not too distant future, a Lucky young QB will join that list.
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He's salty because: Alex Smith.I've made similar claims that Chester is making, he's a little harder on Rodgers than I am tho.
I agree with your last post Chester, and for the last damn time, I'm not crowning Rodgers yet either even though you keep apologizing for not doing so...
I do think there's still something to be said for not being a prisoner to right now though. I tried to tell some of ya'll AR was the goods 5 years ago but ya'll sat there telling me "wait til he does this", "wait til he does that" before gassing him. It's hard to compile a list of more than a couple of names who have played the position as well as he has since then though, whether you're discounting his losses to NYG and SF in the playoffs or not.
And I keep stressing, like you do with Marino... The man is out there making every single throw on the field, and at times creating new ones.
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Isn't this so much better than arguing about Luck vs Wilson and/or #Carrbage, though?
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People were coming for my head when I said Kurt was a first ballot HoFer.
IDK, that 1999 season is top 5 all time. Dropping almost 5k in 2000. :x Then the playoff run he had with Fitz? :x
The crazy thing is, he really only started (or played) six complete years... but won a chip + two MVPs and went 9-4 in the postseason in that timeframe.
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