Lakers OFF-SEASON IS A WRAP

How Many Regular Season Games Do You Think Kobe Will Play This Year?

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Apparently you don't knew what detriment means.

How had their recent lack of pre-Kawhi success been because of a Tim Duncan detriment?

And I'm talking about the whole picture if Tim Duncan. Something like age is not a detriment.
Was our lack of success post 2010 because of Kobe as a detriment? Or just having an older team and a ton of bad luck ("basketball reasons", broke down players, bad management, etc.)
 
Apparently you don't knew what detriment means.

How had their recent lack of pre-Kawhi success been because of a Tim Duncan detriment?

And I'm talking about the whole picture if Tim Duncan. Something like age is not a detriment.

Know how the Spurs truly got it turned around?

He's on the court, right now, in the playoffs, as I type.

Richard. Jefferson. :nerd:


Him opting out of his contract, saved the Spurs BIG time, and opened the doors for their eventual Hill for Kwahi trade. If RJ keeps his money, they still come up short like they did from 08 thru 2012. They never make the Finals in 2013 or 14 either.

RJ opting out is almost as big as them drafting Duncan in 97. :lol:
 
[quote name="Mamba MVP"][QUOTE name="DarthSka"]Apparently you don't knew what detriment means.

How had their recent lack of pre-Kawhi success been because of a Tim Duncan detriment?

And I'm talking about the whole picture if Tim Duncan. Something like age is not a detriment.[/QUOTE]Was our lack of success post 2010 because of Kobe as a detriment? Or just having an older team and a ton of bad luck ("basketball reasons", broke down players, bad management, etc.)[/quote]I think it contributed, yes.
 
As a Laker fan that was born is San Antonio... I've had a close eye on this subject.

Tim won throughout the length of his tenure in SA that's why I would say he goes down as the best winner of his generation whereas Kobe goes down as the best talent.

I saw Kobe #8 absolutely rip apart the Spurs in the Alamodome from 2000-2009, while TD and Shaq/Pau would basically cancel each other out in a series. I've seen no other team compete with SA like a Phil/Kobe led team.


Kobe will always be held in higher regard because he plays a glamorous position in a glamorous city with 100x the fan base as SA.... and I think TD would want it that way.
 
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[quote name="Mamba MVP"][QUOTE name="DarthSka"]I think it contributed, yes.[/QUOTE]How so? Please say something related to Dwight...please. I got the yoppa ready.[/quote]Why would I say something about Dwight? You asked about Kobe. Didn't had his own issues, for a Dwert discussion.

Kobe's attitude is terrible to me, in countless ways.
 
Some of the same stuff CP posted.

I honestly think the on-court turmoil that Kobe has faced, and gotten through to still win is a testament to why he's ahead of Duncan.

Duncan has never faced any on-court turmoil. And it doesn't even have to be created by him. It could be from another teammate, or a coach leaving, or anything like that. He's never even had to go through anything on-court wise like a Kobe, or hell even LeBron has had to.

That familiarity, and never having to deal with a new system or a new core of players makes certain things much much easier. And the Spurs were left for dead until Kawhi saved them.

Also Duncan has been carefully managed for over 1/3 of his career. Minutes managed, back-to-backs sat out. Etc. Kobe did not do that, and was still performing night in & night out as a Top 10 player in the league up until an achilles rupture. You can make a case that 2012-13 Kobe that dragged us into the playoffs was playing at a level as good as 2002, 2005, 2008, 2010 Kobe.

The longevity for both is really high, but the edge goes to Kobe on that. Hell if Phil, or Mike Brown, or Mike D'Antoni, or even Byron had managed his minutes. Kobe probably plays until 2018 at a top level.


Just for information... Kobe vs. Tim Duncan in the Playoffs.. Kobe's record is 18-12. Kobe 4 series wins, Duncan 2 series wins.
 
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I honestly think the on-court turmoil that Kobe has faced, and gotten through to still win is a testament to why he's ahead of Duncan.
What... does... off-court turmoil... have to do... with a team... winning a game?
 
I honestly think the on-court turmoil that Kobe has faced, and gotten through to still win is a testament to why he's ahead of Duncan.
What... does... off-court turmoil... have to do... with a team... winning a game?

I said on-court..

I said nothing about off-court. Because off-court is Kobe's fault and his only (i.e. Rape case).


But players leaving, coaches leaving, That's on-court stuff. Duncan has never had that.

David Robinson is the closest he's gotten. But by the time DRob left, Ginobli & Tony were in place.
 
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Dammit, I even quoted it. My bad.

Watch 10 minutes of some dumb*** video game championship and lose brain cells immediately. :smh:
 
The whole attitude thing isn't a big factor to me at all. Some of the greatest ******** ever coincidentally are also some of the best winners of all time as well. Your attitude isn't a definition of who you are, it's what you have to be in the moment to get the best out of yourself and the others surrounding you. Now if you want to say Kobe's character has kept us from being in contention, I've got some beach land in Idaho to sell you. Matter of fact he's handled adversity a lot better than other superstars, at the first sign of trouble he didn't run (he *****ed and moaned, but he stayed and climbed the mountaintop again) unlike this one guy whose supposedly the best teammate of all time yet is constantly looking for the easy way out and bailing. 

Tim being a robot has been as conducive to the Spurs winning as Bean's surliness has been to us not winning...a non factor.
 
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Handling adversity that you helped create is not a very strong sign of strength, not to me.

Yes, it does take strength to get through a problem you helped create, but there are much stronger signs of strength... like learning from those problems so that they quit arising, and whether or not that is interpreted as 'covering those problems' or 'working through those problems'.
 
Handling adversity that you helped create is not a very strong sign of strength, not to me.

Yes, it does take strength to get through a problem you helped create, but there are much stronger signs of strength... like learning from those problems so that they quit arising, and whether or not that is interpreted as 'covering those problems' or 'working through those problems'.
I'm assuming you're referring to the beef with Shaq but maybe not. What adversity did he create?
 
No way I'd attempt to create an entire personality picture off of one example.

But if you don't think he has helped create some of the issues he has had to fight through, I don't have the energy or desire to explain it right now. Maybe tomorrow.

I'm not saying he's a bad person; just that I don't care for his brand, at all. Never have. Common knowledge. :lol:
 
I saw some of you choppin it up in the NBA thread about Duncan somehow passing Kobe recently. I wasn't gonna get dragged into that, but please allow me to help some of you for future reference.

First, all the narratives NT tries to use. Remember the Kobe/Bron arguments? Can't use TEAM success for Kobe, because he played with Shaq, and Phil, and Bron didn't have that. However, now, for some reason, it's ok to use TEAM success to hype of Tim Duncan, the guy gettint 4 points in a playoff game, and winning by 40+.
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OKB and JD, two of NT's brightest NBA minds, also have a factor, you take the prime of a player over the longevity. IE, Kobe has played in 19 seasons, Magic only 11. You would take Magic's best 9-10 years, and match those with Kobe's best 9-10 years, not give credit to Kobe for all 19 seasons. Some agree with that, some don't, I personally am sort of on the fence on it. Guys certainly should get some credit for lasting longer, but I also agree, it shouldn't be the overall main factor either.

So,

Why was Magic better than Larry Bird? Magic won 5 titles in the 80's, Bird 3. Magic beat Bird 2-1 in the Finals. (Magic also had the college title if you wanted to use that) Magic went to the Finals 8 times in the 80's. Bird went 5 times. The reason we use, 80's? Their primes. Magic was taken from us in 91. Bird was done basically in 92, give or take half seasons worth of attempts they gave. But their primes, their "era" was from 1980, to 1990. Bird never repeated, Magic did.

Now,

Kobe played his first two years as a teenager, off the bench. In the strike year, he played for Kurt, Rambis.
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In 2000, when Phil came on board, that's when Kobe became a full time starter, entered his "prime/peak years" and had a real coach. From 2000 to 2010 (like 1980 to 1990) Kobe and the Lakers went to 7 Finals. Won 5 titles. The Spurs went to 3 Finals. Won 3 titles. Kobe's Lakers beat Duncan's Spurs 4 times in 5 tries. Duncan never repeated, Kobe did, multiple times.


Everyone begs for the Kobe rode Shaq stuff, k, well, Duncan's last two Titles, TWO DIFFERENT players won Finals MVP. Those two players, ALSO play with ANOTHER Hall of Famer in Manu Ginobili. And when he won his 2nd title, in 2003, he also had HOFer David Robinson. And Pop has coached every, single, game. So yes, Kobe played with the great Shaq, for 5 years of that run, whereas Tim has never, ever been lonely on the Spurs.

(Note, some people will demand to include the 99 title for Duncan, if they do, that's fine, considering it was Kobe's first year starting, switching between SF and SG, after just turning 20 years old, with Rambis as the coach, that would still only bump the totals to 4 Finals, 4 Titles, and 2-4 vs Kobe for the Spurs. Still less than the 7 Finals, 5 titles, and 4-2. Either way, still Kobe comes out on top)


Longevity. Kobe has missed the last two years. The Spurs have been reborn during that time. Somehow, that elevates Duncan in some eyes, when he isn't even half the player he was. Just 24 months ago, Kobe averaged 2.3/6.0/5.6 at almost 39 minutes a game, for 78 games. The last time Duncan played 39 minutes a game? 2002-03, at age 26. Kobe was 34 when he did it.


PER. Player rating system. People factor it heavily at times. Duncan't last few years, of TEAM success, Duncan's PER has been 19.8, 21.1, 21.3, 22.9, 15.5, 19.7 back to 2008-09 when his PER was 27.3 (He was beat in the first round that year, in 5 games)

Kobe's last few years in the playoffs? 24.4, 20.6, 24.7, 26.8, 25.0, 24.1 (that year, Kobe also lost in the first round, in 5 games)

Longevity?

The last time Duncan played 40 minutes a night, in the playoffs, 2003-04. That was his last year doing so, his 6th overall such season. He was 27.

Kobe had 9 years of that number, the last time being 2010, when he was 31, during his 3rd straight Finals run. (Oh by the way, his last playoff season, he was at 39.7, at age 33)


So, somehow the narratives don't add up. Kobe has all this help, but we just dismiss Duncan playing with multiple Finals MVP's, and HOFers. Or his entire career with one elite coach.

But Kobe had Shaq, and Pau and Phil, only he had Phil for 10 years, and Shaq/Pau for half that.


Duncan is somehow the GOAT of this era, even tho another player, in the same conference as him, won the West more times, beat his team head to head more times, and won more titles during their prime years.
****, look at it deeper, Spurs won in 99/03/05/07/14. Phil Jackson didn't coach in 3 of those years. (99-05-14) Kobe was injured in 2 of them. (05 and 14)

But when Kobe and Phil won the West 7 times, Pop and Duncan were there, each and every year, together.


How are you the best of your era, when another guy in your conference won more than you did, despite being injured 3 different years, and without a legit coach for a good 7-8 of those seasons?



So, next time the issue comes up, please refer to this post and ask people why they move and change their qualifications to fit their agenda without broaching these subjects.
May G. you replaced your RETURN KEY yet?
 
Why does Jeanie say that next season will be a celebration of Kobe's career?

We're going to throw away another season to make Kobe happy?
 
the thing people dont seem to understand when not valuing longevity is that it is the biggest reason we got 5 championships and not 3.

i know ska has said in the past that you replace kobe with tmac or some other guy and we still win 5 championships. for arguments sake (i disagree) lets say that it does work out that way, tmac on the team still wins the same amount of championships when you pair him up with shaq

what people overlook in this kind of role swap argument is that they always assume that if you replace tmac for kobe, you just replace kobe with prime tmac every year.

the reason we got our two championships with pau were because kobe worked harder than anyone else in the league and kept himself in shape to still dominate in his 14th and 15th year in the league. in tmacs 14th and 15th season he's averaging 8 ppg for the knicks

sure someone could argue that if you put duncan on our team instead of kobe he still wins the early championships with shaq (i disagree). but down the road when we get pau and kobe is playing like an mvp in his 13-15th years in the league duncan is averaging 14-9, one of those years he didnt even make the allstar game.

longevity is a real  factor when it comes to evaluating a player, if you live in a fantasy world where you replace player x with player y in his prime for 15 years then of course you will think player y is just as good. but bodies break down and kobe's dedication to keeping healthy has been perhaps the best asset he has given our organisation throughout his career 
 
Yup.

I laugh at everyone hypin this guy today like he's 03 Dunc.

He's 7 feet tall, and makes 2 foot baskets to the tune of 13-14 points a game. :lol:

He scored 4, in a playoff game, and won by 40. But people act as if he's dominated the entire time, but somehow completely misremember 08, 09, 10, 11, 12 he wasn't doin ****.

And in 13, when he missed the most crucial 2 footer of his career, he lost again. :pimp:

But when the Heat, on fumes during their 4th straight Finals run, ran out of gas vs a 21-22 Finals MVP in Kawhi, suddenly Duncan's been great all along. :lol: :lol:

Duncan right now is prime Chris Mihm. But folks gassin him "he's better than Kobe".

But speak on Kobe's merits, oh no, can't factor in team success, but, Spurs, 2014-15, that's ok. :rolleyes
 
Why does Jeanie say that next season will be a celebration of Kobe's career?

We're going to throw away another season to make Kobe happy?

She's trying to get us to renew our tickets BEFORE the draft lottery, draft, free agency...,it's marketing
 
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