I went to bed, so that's why I didn't respond to anything you said. And I don't see how you've countered anything I said about Kobe last night with "fax." Go back and read the thread and you'll see I said the proof of Kobe's great leadership has come mostly in the form of quotes about Kobe from people who either currently play/work for the Lakers or have washed out of the league. Your latest batch of quotes is fully consistent with that. Fax, B. (clearly doesnt understand the context of my original post, here's a quick breakdown of the series of events. JPX lists ex lakers players and claims they were not effected by kobe's leadership. lawdog quotes the post saying that only people currently on lakers payroll have provided quotes, referring to all the fax i provided a few weeks ago, this implies "haha if kobe is so great why didn't seaman find quotes from these guys". I come in and provide quotes on these guys, lawdog now attempts to accuse me of not reading what he said, ironic.)
Here's my full position on the issue, so I don't have to address it again.
Quotes from current and former teammates about how good a leader Kobe is are not facts; they're opinions. Opinions from people who may not be in a position to speak objectively about the subject. I'm if someone went into the Cavs locker room and started asking all their players whether LeBron is a good leader they would say favorable things. Would you accept those opinions as probative facts? I think not. (uses "who may not be" to suggest that these players might be lying, yet doesn't follow up on this and provide any evidence to support this claim. classic empty counterpoint. Instead the next line is about me because when you can't counter the argument you try to shift attention to the person making the argument. What it means to be a good leader is in itself an opinion, HOWEVER a large majority of his ex and current teammates calling him a great teammate is a FACT. Logically I would think it makes sense that the people best suited to evaluate kobe's leadership ability would be the people who are directly effected by his leadership, his teammates. and to reiterate, the character traits that these players look for in good leaders is an opinion. the fact that according to all these players kobe fits the bill as a good leader is a fact. so yes, I have brought you FAX on FAX on FAX and you have given me nothing so far.)
The only way to objectively evaluate how good a leader someone is, IMO, is to look at the results they get. Kobe's track record in that department is pretty spotty. The Lakers have done well with him as the face of the franchise when they happened to have the most talented roster and the arguably the best coach ever. Aside from those periods, things haven't been so great.
Since the 2010 title, the team has gotten progressively worse to the point they've been one of the poorest teams in the league 3 years running. They have failed to sign any of the marquee free agents they've gone after and also lost the biggest acquisition they got in trade, largely because of Kobe. (this is your first legitimate point, yes team record is a way to evaluate leadership and the lakers team record being terrible these last few years is a fact. good job!)
What is the value of Kobe's leadership if its not translating into team wins or the overall betterment of the franchise? All the quotes in the world don't disprove the fact that the Lakers haven't exactly flourished during this period when Kobe has supposedly become such a great leader and mentor. But hey, its cool that his teammates say nice things about him and works out well during this farewell tour. (now you go back to rhetorical questions and follow up statements to the one sentence worth of fact you have presented me in all 300 words of mostly meaningless fluff)
I'm sure you'll now go get your Google on and throw some more quotes at me from non-Lakers who still are in the NBA. And keep doing it until I retract what I said. So, let's skip all that and move on to more important things like slandering LeBum and CP0(back to talking about me rather than attempting to come with actual points and counter points, nothing wrong with a personal jab here and there but if you want to have a cogent argument, you have to have more evidence backed points.)
if someone took the time and was able to find examples of anecdotal evidence that lebron is a good leader then that would be a solid counter point to the things said about that fraud in here. but all you did was bring up the hypothetical of someone doing that which is meaningless. none of us are in the locker rooms or see what they do in practice so yes, a teammate/ex-teammate saying something about a player holds way more weight than an NTer that watches games once in a while and forms opinions based on personal bias.
lets look at the results kobe has gotten. it's no coincidence that we have been a terrible team for the three years that kobe has been hurt, that's usually what happens when your team loses its best player. the guy has been a great leader and mentor for the past decade, how's a clippers fan going to downplay a period where a team has won two championships while you're still hanging up pictures of austin rivers?
fact is most of our roster has been awful for the past 4 years. but look at it from a case by case basis and its easy to see that these players all played better with kobe.
Jodie Meeks had a career high in FG%, 3PT%, PTS while playing for kobe. been trash since leaving
Jordan Farmar had his best and most productive years playing alongside kobe. became trash after he started playing for the clippers
wes johnson had the two best season's of his career both in efficiency and output playing under kobe's mentor ship, has since seen a drop in effectiveness after starting to play with that little clown you probably consider a better leader
nick young had the worst season of his career (despite leading them to the second round of the playoffs) with the clippers, yet somehow he starts playing better once he moves to kobe's team
darrius morris was never good enough to stay in the league but kobe managed to maximise his limited potential enough to sucker the clippers into signing him
obviously guys like Pau, Lamar and Bynum flourished when playing with kobe, have been mediocre at best since leaving the lakers
point is, he consistently has gotten both allstar talent and sub par talent to elevate their games. people love to talk about how the spurs make random scrubs look good, kobe is basically a one man spurs organization.
there's a reason your team keeps signing ex lakers players and half way through the season you guys start complaining about how bad they are, they don't have kobe's leadership to maximise their limited potential anymore.
and for those keeping track at home, notice that again I have provided multiple examples to help support my point rather than spitting out empty statements that sound nice but are unsubstantiated. to help out I'll even underline all the valid points in each post.
so again, if you want to not seem like an irrational hater who says things just for the sake of saying them then please come back with actual points and counterpoints to support your argument. It's a waste of both our times to consistently come back at me with fluff
for a dude who practices law, you cant keep getting your "arguments" torn apart by kids like me