Originally Posted by sea manup
I acknowledged your one bit of evidence and offered a counter point, what you said about the lakers having a terrible record is still a completely valid point but I offered a reason to why I dont think it is telling of kobe's leadership.
"No matter what I come up with, you'll find a qualifier to reject or explain why it didn't count." - Isn't this the very core of forming a good counter argument? Either provide evidence to show why it's invalid or to explain (not make empty statements) why I don't see it being as strong of an argument that you say it is?
you basically told me the online argument version of "It's pointless to play you 1v1. No matter what moves I hit you with you will work hard on defense to try and prevent me from scoring"
I spend all day in here joking about an ever growing list of players, if you wish to take half the stuff I say seriously then that's on you.
I'm just saying that I have provided you with mountains of evidence towards him being a good leader, you have pointed out team record. In my opinion, with all the evidence laid out in front of us, it would be irrational to think he is a bad leader.
we have both been petty in this back and forth, you can throw shots at me all you wan't it's all in good fun. just be sure to come at me with actual argumentative points next time.
To be completely fair, the position you're taking here gives you an advantage in terms of coming up with evidence. There's very few NBA players who are going to publicly criticize one of the league's preeminent superstars for fear of burning bridges, etc. So, it stands to reason that all the commentary out there would be vastly pro-Kobe. There are some articles out there, from not particularly credible sources, listing people that allegedly have issues with Kobe. But they most rely on second-hand info and quotes from "sources," so I didn't bother posting any of that stuff.
But here are a couple examples, just to prove the stuff is out there:
There are, of course, of few well documented instances of people who have openly criticized Kobe, like Smush and Dwight. But I know if I mention them, you'll just dismiss them as being soft mentally and unable to handle Kobe's leadership style. That's why I said you'll come up with qualifiers for what concrete information I can offer.
So, given the lack of first hand criticisms regarding Kobe, the best thing I have to rely on is how the Lakers have done with Kobe as the face of the franchise. And, as I said before, when Phil hasn't been around, Kobe's ability to get the most out of his teammates have been much less present. So, that's why I don't consider all the points you've made to be a "mountain of evidence" proving he's a good leader. When Kobe was in his prime and Phil was the coach, the Lakers were awesome. When all the factors weren't present, as has been the case for the last six years, things haven't gone nearly as well.
But no Phil and less talent, I don't know you can say that Kobe was able to get those teams to overachieve. They were pretty bad. Given all that, I think my reservations about him are reasonable and based on facts. If you want to call it irrational hatred, that's up to you.
But now I'm really moving on. Swear.