Minimum Wage laws are RACIST!

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What is the most common complaint you hear from young grads trying to get a job and start their careers?



Some libertarians argue that minimum wage laws are a major road block to gaining experience. Prior to minimum wage, employers were able to hire more people at entry level positions, paying them less, but giving them valuable on the job training and experience. Having gained that experience, employees would then have more opportunities open to them moving forward.



Thomas Sowell:



Milton Friedman:



Walter E Williams. A longer video covering more than just minimum wage but, if you're interested, it's worth the watch:





When I was younger and heavily left leaning, I couldn't see the rationale of conservatives. It literally seemed like an incoherent and illogical position to me. This bothered me though, because I knew there must be some coherence in that position for it to be so popular. Simple arguments like "they're all racist, they're all greedy, etc" could not account for such a popular position.

I'm fortunate to have found these public figures and economists, and I wanted to share this with NT and spark a discussion. Yes, forreal. Ignore the overly dramatic title :lol:

I see a lot of support for further increases in minimum wage as we're approaching the new election year. But further increases in the minimum wage will most likely produce further unemployment.

Lets take Seattle, which recently passed a 15/hour minimum wage law to be phased in over time, as a case study. This article was just posted last month. MSA = metropolitan statistical area

http://www.aei.org/publication/mini...-fell-700-vs-5800-food-jobs-in-rest-of-state/

Minimum wage effect? From Jan. to Sept. Seattle MSA restaurant jobs fell -700 vs. +5,800 food jobs in rest of state



In June of last year, the Seattle city council passed a $15 an hour minimum wage law to be phased in over time, with the first increase to $11 an hour taking effect on April 1, 2015. What effect will the eventual 58% increase in labor costs have on small businesses, including Seattle area restaurants? It’s too soon to tell for sure, but there is already some preliminary evidence that the recent minimum wage hike to $11 an hour, along with the pending increase of an additional $4 an hour by 2017 for some businesses, has started having a negative effect on restaurant jobs in the greater Seattle area.

The lighter blue line in the top chart above shows that restaurant jobs in the Emerald City started to stagnate and then decline around the first of this year (when the state minimum wage increased to $9.47 per hour, the highest state minimum wage in the country), following steady growth in Seattle MSA food services employment during the previous five-year period between January 2010 and January 2015 (data here). On April 1 of this year, the city’s minimum wage increased to $11 an hour which may have contributed to the loss of 700 Seattle area restaurant jobs between January and September (new BLS employment data for last month were released yesterday), the largest decline over that period since a loss of 3,000 restaurant jobs in 2009 during the Great Recession (see bottom chart above). What makes the restaurant job losses this year especially noteworthy are that the average job gain during the January-September period over the previous five years from 2010 to 2014 was almost 3,000, and over the previous three years nearly 4,000.

What is also noteworthy about the loss of Seattle restaurant jobs this year is the fact that restaurant employment in the rest of Washington state is booming this year, as the top chart shows (see dark blue line, state restaurant employment data here). At the same time that Seattle area food services employment has declined this year by 700 (and by -0.52%), restaurant jobs in the rest of the state have increased by a whopping 5,800 new positions (and by 6.6%).
 
Will post later, but first.....



Dude Mo Matik, where TF you been breh?
 
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If Im readying about Seattle correctly, people pretty much left their food jobs for other(better?) minimum wage job?
 
Will post later, but first.....



Dude Mo Matik, where TF you been breh?


:nerd: Long story short, school and getting lost in other parts of the interwebz

So you're blaming lack of jobs for recent grads to the $7.25 federal minimum wage?

Of course there are many factors that contribute to big issues like this. But if minimum wage laws are a significant contribution to this problem, then at least it's something we can easily address.

We can't do much to stifle technological advancements in automation, artificial intelligence, and machine learning. We can't do much to stop businesses from moving their departments overseas. We can't do much about racist business owners who won't hire minorities (other than what we already do, which is to make it illegal), but we can change legislation.

If Im readying about Seattle correctly, people pretty much left their food jobs for other(better?) minimum wage job?

It's a possibility, but very unlikely. Restaurant jobs in all of Washington had been steadily increasing for the 5 years prior. And in that time, while people were exiting and entering the industry, there continued to be steady growth. All of a sudden, right when workers in the Seattle area are expecting a massive raise they decide to perform a mass exodus from the industry...? And meanwhile, in other parts of the state where workers are not expecting a raise, they remained in the industry and the industry overall continued to grow....that sounds very coincidental.
 
I cant be sure, but I don't think 16 year old's and uneducated people are the reason (or even contributing to why) I'm having trouble breaking into my chosen field after graduating.
 
I don't think I understand your point fully. I don't see where you got the impression that I'm blaming uneducated people? 16 year olds don't pass legislation.
 
i would edit out the first sentence of your original post. it doesn't correlate with minimum wage jobs at all.
 
Some libertarians argue that minimum wage laws are a major road block to gaining experience. Prior to minimum wage, employers were able to hire more people at entry level positions, paying them less, but giving them valuable on the job training and experience. Having gained that experience, employees would then have more opportunities open to them moving forward.

this argument is totally invalid because of internships both paid and unpaid.
 
i would edit out the first sentence of your original post. it doesn't correlate with minimum wage jobs at all.

I think it does. I'm not talking about work experience strictly within the field grads are pursuing professionally. Even work at a corner store is valuable experience in management, understanding value and worth, and dealing with customers to name a few. But even then, entry level jobs in many different industries would be able take in more young people looking to build their CVs without current minimum wage laws as they are.

this argument is totally invalid because of internships both paid and unpaid.

Could you elaborate?
 
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I don't think I understand your point fully. I don't see where you got the impression that I'm blaming uneducated people? 16 year olds don't pass legislation.
I don't think you are blaming uneducated people. My point is that minimum wage has no direct correlation to college grads being underemployed (as far as I've seen). No one I know is graduating college trying to work at a corner store or fast food. I worked a barely above min. wage job through college, and am now slightly less underemployed.
 
I find it very off that min wage stays yet things everywhere are more expensive. They try and hide that "downsizing" bs but I'm not fooled!
 
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Yeah my grandpa always tell me you could be a normal sales person and still have enough to get a house and live the American dream. Seems like that wage\inflation relationship is unbalanced as hell nowadays.
 
I don't think you are blaming uneducated people. My point is that minimum wage has no direct correlation to college grads being underemployed (as far as I've seen). No one I know is graduating college trying to work at a corner store or fast food. I worked a barely above min. wage job through college, and am now slightly less underemployed.

I think you're misunderstanding the argument. I'm not saying college grads are looking for minimum wage jobs.

I'm saying that minimum wage works against young people trying to get into the work force.

Only one example of this is college grads who can't find work in their respective fields because they don't have experience.

But if minimum wage laws were not a factor, these college kids would have had more opportunities to build work experience during high school, summers, and during college. So that when they did eventually graduate, they would already possess the experience required for professional hires.
 
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I think you're misunderstanding the argument. I'm not saying college grads are looking for minimum wage jobs.

I'm saying that minimum wage works against young people trying to get into the work force.

Only one example of this is college grads who can't find work in their respective fields because they don't have experience.

But if minimum wage laws were not a factor, these college kids would have had more opportunities to build work experience during high school, summers, and during college. So that when they did eventually graduate, they would already possess the experience required for professional hires.

The counter economic argument is that by paying people more, you will increase spending and thus create more jobs because more money is flowing into the economy as a whole and thus spent hiring even more people. It's sort of trickle down economics, except well, Republicans and conservatives hate this sort of explanation for it. It's called the velocity of money and it does work, in theory, just like trickle down economics is just a theory. Well, a theory that has been proven false over the past 33 years :lol:
 
 
I don't think you are blaming uneducated people. My point is that minimum wage has no direct correlation to college grads being underemployed (as far as I've seen). No one I know is graduating college trying to work at a corner store or fast food. I worked a barely above min. wage job through college, and am now slightly less underemployed.
I think you're misunderstanding the argument. I'm not saying college grads are looking for minimum wage jobs.

I'm saying that minimum wage works against young people trying to get into the work force.

Only one example of this is college grads who can't find work in their respective fields because they don't have experience.

But if minimum wage laws were not a factor, these college kids would have had more opportunities to build work experience during high school, summers, and during college. So that when they did eventually graduate, they would already possess the experience required for professional hires.
So unpaid internships (a lot of them are unpaid) count here or nah?
 
Yeah my grandpa always tell me you could be a normal sales person and still have enough to get a house and live the American dream. Seems like that wage\inflation relationship is unbalanced as hell nowadays.

I remember reading an article stating the same thing about auto mechanics.
 
So let me get this straight OP. You think that if there were no minimum wage, the average person would benefit because they could now work, for a low amount of money? All minimum wage means is "If I could pay you less, I would." I've read arguments from conservatives such as Ann Coulter, the lady who is a huge trump supporter, and she argues that if there's less illegal immigrants in this country, people won't be able to undercut each other when it comes to the workforce, thus driving the wages higher. It seems to me that by getting rid of the minimum wage, we would have the same problem.

Me personally, getting rid of the minimum wage doesn't affect me. I'm blessed to be in the beginning of a career I enjoy so far, making a very good amount of money. I also live in an area with a lot of work. I'm part of a labor union, so we have our own minimum wage. We all know what we make, we're all equal. Because of our nice pay, the non-union factor has to pay a competitive rate as well. So me being in a labor union, there's absolutely no way in hell I can support any conservative.

Here's the bottom line OP, there's been a long struggle between rich and poor in this country. It dates back to the 1800's. Employers and contractors, for the most part always attempt to boost their profits by any means necessary. This fight for worker's rights has always been there and will always be there. So I ask you this OP, if we let them take away the minimum wage (which is a joke since it's so low anyways), what's next? Should we also let them take away our weekends? How about we go back to 16 hour shifts? You know what? 15 and a half is too old to start work. Why not let our 5 year old kids work for a few dollars an hour so they can get this experience? Also, no safety regulations, they cost too much and kill productivity.

edit: Also, your title bothers me, I have no idea how it's related to your post.
 
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The question of internships does throw a wrench in this theory.

But this article makes the argument that unpaid internships don't effectively make up for the losses produced by minimum wage because there is too much red tape around such programs.

The government allows members of Congress, along with other Washington agencies and nonprofits, to offer unpaid internships, but it prohibits for-profit corporations from doing so unless they meet stringent, unworkable requirements. Under guidelines published by the Labor Department in 2010, a private-sector internship can be unpaid if it is deemed “educational,” whatever that means. It must benefit the intern, who must not displace regular staff. The employer cannot benefit from the intern’s presence. These requirements do not lead to meaningful internships. Employers have to pay thousands of dollars for what are effectively training programs, or students have to pay colleges to participate in unpaid internships.

These guidelines have resulted in lawsuits filed against companies offering worthwhile internships in in-demand fields. CBS and “The Late Show with David Letterman,” for instance, had a class-action complaint from previous interns filed against them in September 2014.

The plaintiffs are seeking all the compensation they would have earned if their internships had been paid, plus interest and legal costs. These interns knew that the internships were unpaid before they accepted the offers—they were applying for them to gain valuable experience in the highly competitive television industry. Opening up companies to potential lawsuits such as this one does nothing to promote hands-on work experience for young people.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/05/11/unpaid-internships-do-as-congress-says-not-as-it-does/
 
Lowering or eliminating minimum wage just gives employers the option to pay people less. We should probably stop moving jobs outside of the United States.
 
So let me get this straight OP. You think that if there were no minimum wage, the average person would benefit because they could now work, for a low amount of money? All minimum wage means is "If I could pay you less, I would." I've read arguments from conservatives such as Ann Coulter, the lady who is a huge trump supporter, and she argues that if there's less illegal immigrants in this country, people won't be able to undercut each other when it comes to the workforce, thus driving the wages higher. It seems to me that by getting rid of the minimum wage, we would have the same problem.

Me personally, getting rid of the minimum wage doesn't affect me. I'm blessed to be in the beginning of a career I enjoy so far, making a very good amount of money. I also live in an area with a lot of work. I'm part of a labor union, so we have our own minimum wage. We all know what we make, we're all equal. Because of our nice pay, the non-union factor has to pay a competitive rate as well. So me being in a labor union, there's absolutely no way in hell I can support any conservative.

Here's the bottom line OP, there's been a long struggle between rich and poor in this country. It dates back to the 1800's. Employers and contractors, for the most part always attempt to boost their profits by any means necessary. This fight for worker's rights has always been there and will always be there. So I ask you this OP, if we let them take away the minimum wage (which is a joke since it's so low anyways), what's next? Should we also let them take away our weekends? How about we go back to 16 hour shifts? You know what? 15 and a half is too old to start work. Why not let our 5 year old kids work for a few dollars an hour so they can get this experience? Also, no safety regulations, they cost too much and kill productivity.

edit: Also, your title bothers me, I have no idea how it's related to your post.

The argument is that minimum wage prevents young people from entering the work force. It's anti-progressive. It says that, if you're only worth 5 bucks an hour, and the min wage is 10, I can't give you the work experience you need in order to climb the economic ladder. Sorry, you don't meet the cut off.

I don't see how Coulter's argument comes into play here. In fact, I agree with her. ILLEGAL immigrants are a problem for a number of reasons. I'm an 1st gen immigrant myself. She's a nut job though of course.

Your last paragraph goes way too far. I'm not union bashing over here- worker's rights are important. Some regulations do good. BUT the road the hell is paved with good intentions. Some regulations and government programs can often have an opposite effect to what was intended.

If you want to understand the title, watch the videos I linked to in the original post. At least the first 2.
 
 
Lowering or eliminating minimum wage just gives employers the option to pay people less. We should probably stop moving jobs outside of the United States.
How will we do this?

People demand more $ > corporations find loopholes to move outside the US > people lose jobs / spending decreases > economy takes a hit
 
At the end of the day, you have to live for yourself and not someone else. Create something and you won't have to worry about minimum wage. Do it yourself and your way!
 
The argument is that minimum wage prevents young people from entering the work force. It's anti-progressive. It says that, if you're only worth 5 bucks an hour, and the min wage is 10, I can't give you the work experience you need in order to climb the economic ladder. Sorry, you don't meet the cut off.

I don't see how Coulter's argument comes into play here. In fact, I agree with her. ILLEGAL immigrants are a problem for a number of reasons. I'm an 1st gen immigrant myself. She's a nut job though of course.

Your last paragraph goes way too far. I'm not union bashing over here- worker's rights are important. Some regulations do good. BUT the road the hell is paved with good intentions. Some regulations and government programs can often have an opposite effect to what was intended.

If you want to understand the title, watch the videos I linked to in the original post. At least the first 2.

I don't know where you live exactly but being in the same situation as you and growing up and living in NYC I see the opposite effect and it's why NYC has such lax laws when it comes to illegals. They do take jobs that your typical Americans thinks is below them. There are no ifs or buts about that. Many places would be forced to close without them and thus increase unemployment because the money they spend goes towards other companies and products that keep other people employed. Minimum wage hasn't been increased to keep up to par with actually inflation since it was instituted it. For 2 big reasons, one is the business lobby and the second is the threat of outsourcing which has had downward pressure on wages. Skilled jobs have had their wages semi-frozen as well and not adjusted like they should have been as well. But when someone working in finance or accounting isn't making 120k but is only making 100k they don't feel it as much. The most disenfranchised are the low skilled workers because when they were making 45k and then drop to 30k or even 20k, that REALLY hurts.

Now in terms of bringing jobs back to the US is a whole other topic but to put it bluntly unlike what politicians try to sugarcoat, it isn't happening. I don't care what Trump or any other politician on the left, right, or cent is going to promise you, manufacturing jobs are not coming back in masses like they say. If anything comes back it'll be similar to what Apple did with their Mac Pros. They are going to bring back production, however 90% of the work will be done by robots and the other 10% will be servicing the machines along with the engineers and operations managers. Blue-collar work is essentially dead in the US in manufacturing and it's going to continue to go down over the next few decades until actual manual work will be almost gone outside a few niche products. This will lead to huge unemployment and people being forced into low paying jobs because those people don't have the skills, knowledge, time, and money to learn these new skills necessary in the new economy. It can be can any one of those factors by itself or a combo of all four. We are competing in a global economy now and people have been taught to be complacent because of the idea of "we are the best in the world" where the quality of our products has proved otherwise. American manufacturing is average to above average. What we specialize in is designing and thinking up of new ideas.

The financial service industry is being highly automated as well and there are less and less employees needed to perform the same tasks each and every year. The only exception to that are client facing roles since nothing beats face to face interactions and relationships. Lawyers are feeling the same pressure along with numerous other skilled positions. Healthcare is the only industry that's on the upswing but I'm sure we'll have more automation there as well. We live in an uncertain time now where it's either you are ready to adapt to what's happening and what is the new trend or you might be left behind. It really is tough.
 
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I hate the argument about paramedics who make $15/hr. How they "save people's lives" Maybe they need to pay their workers more, but why compare being a paramedic to a "burger flipper". If they are in up in arms about being paid so less why not go and become a nurse and make $50+/hr. Or if they are comfortable at 15/hr go apply at in & out burger.
 
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