Washington Wizards 2016-2017 Season Thread - Thanks for a great season!

[mrtarheel]

In today's NBA, how is he not worth the max?

You can't let a guy like him leave. He does so many things well. He's our second best player behind Wall.

Because we are trash with him, so let someone else pay top dollar for average talent. Not saying Otto sucks, but he doesn't have a significant impact on the game.  

max deal for a 6th man?

Actually, the starters (aside from last night) have one of the best +/- overall in the league. It was 5th at the start of the week, if I remember correctly.

You should watch a little closer if you think Otto isn't impacting the game. He's shooting over 50% from the floor over 40% from 3 and averaging 14/8 while playing excellent defense.

6th man? C'mon, bruh.

He's on the verge of becoming an elite wing in the East, if he's not already there now.

On a game to game basis I still say he is not a high impact player. He can't create his own shot, and I believe that a max player should be able to get a bucket when called upon.

Decent player? absolutely! Max deal player? not in my opinion...

 

[jjs07]

How is someone putting up the numbers he does (with the defense) NOT a max player? Look at the money given out to guys like Batum, Crabbe, Matthews, Barnes, etc...you can make a case that Otto is better than all of them. Easily.

I'll just post what I did in the NBA thread..

You gotta understand...for the most part, the Wizards starters have been fantastic. Good enough to have this team WELL over .500. This conversation about Otto's worth wouldn't even be happening if the bench was better. Folks are debating Otto being a max contract player based solely off of the record of the Wizards. Also, he's probably the 2nd best player on the roster and does SO many things well for this team. This team has a limited ceiling due to the wreckless and moronic spending of the GM this past summer. This has ZERO to do with Otto as he's developed into a fantastic wing and becoming one of the best in the East. If the Wizards are truly that dumb and let him go, there will be no shortage of teams willing to spend the money on him to bolster their lineup.

And here's another article:

The Wizards have 3 good players. The rest of their team is a train wreck

 

[mrtarheel]

How is someone putting up the numbers he does (with the defense) NOT a max player? Look at the money given out to guys like Batum, Crabbe, Matthews, Barnes, etc...you can make a case that Otto is better than all of them. Easily.

I'll just post what I did in the NBA thread..

You gotta understand...for the most part, the Wizards starters have been fantastic. Good enough to have this team WELL over .500. This conversation about Otto's worth wouldn't even be happening if the bench was better. Folks are debating Otto being a max contract player based solely off of the record of the Wizards. Also, he's probably the 2nd best player on the roster and does SO many things well for this team. This team has a limited ceiling due to the wreckless and moronic spending of the GM this past summer. This has ZERO to do with Otto as he's developed into a fantastic wing and becoming one of the best in the East. If the Wizards are truly that dumb and let him go, there will be no shortage of teams willing to spend the money on him to bolster their lineup.

And here's another article:

The Wizards have 3 good players. The rest of their team is a train wreck

He's not a max player because right now we are terrible. Why max him out to have the same exact terrible team, but now with less cap room?

Because of my boy Ernie we are stuck with this sorry bench/roster for a while Lol

Trade him for picks, and get the rebuild started.

And give Ernie his pension and let him go.

 

[jjs07]

How is someone putting up the numbers he does (with the defense) NOT a max player? Look at the money given out to guys like Batum, Crabbe, Matthews, Barnes, etc...you can make a case that Otto is better than all of them. Easily.


I'll just post what I did in the NBA thread..


You gotta understand...for the most part, the Wizards starters have been fantastic. Good enough to have this team WELL over .500. This conversation about Otto's worth wouldn't even be happening if the bench was better. Folks are debating Otto being a max contract player based solely off of the record of the Wizards. Also, he's probably the 2nd best player on the roster and does SO many things well for this team. This team has a limited ceiling due to the wreckless and moronic spending of the GM this past summer. This has ZERO to do with Otto as he's developed into a fantastic wing and becoming one of the best in the East. If the Wizards are truly that dumb and let him go, there will be no shortage of teams willing to spend the money on him to bolster their lineup.


And here's another article:

The Wizards have 3 good players. The rest of their team is a train wreck

He's not a max player because right now we are terrible. Why max him out to have the same exact terrible team, but now with less cap room?

Because of my boy Ernie we are stuck with this sorry bench/roster for a while Lol

Trade him for picks, and get the rebuild started.

And give Ernie his pension and let him go.

The team is not terrible because of Otto. This is what you're not understanding. If you can give me one good reason as to why the team is faltering due to his play or some other variable, I'd happily entertain the thought of letting him go. That's not the case.

Anyways...

The Wizards Are Dead, Ernie Grunfeld Has Killed Them

 

[Methodical Management]

 

Porter in no way, shape, or form is worth a max deal... No way we should give Tayshawn Prince lite a max deal

Beal and Porter with max deals for a .500 team? 

In today's NBA, how is he not worth the max?

You can't let a guy like him leave. He does so many things well. He's our second best player behind Wall.

I have to agree with JJs07 in that Porter has been the team's second best player by a wide margin.  The average fan, who only looks at PPG, may think this team still belongs to the tandem of Wall and Beal, but Beal is getting his by volume.  

Otto is shooting a fantastic percentage and how many plays are they running for him?  Meanwhile, force-feeding Beal has become the staple of what little organized offense the team does run these days.  They NEED Beal to look good in order to justify the contract and everyone knows it. 

Signing Beal to a max extension may have been a necessary evil in the sense that, if they hadn't, imagine who ELSE Grunfeld might have signed to fill that space.  At least there's bound to be SOMEONE, at some point, who will see upside in Beal and would be willing to make a trade.  If you look at 3 point FGs made by age, he's looking pretty good.  You just have to find a franchise that won't look any deeper than that.  (Sacramento, maybe.)

Under normal circumstances, it is exceedingly difficult to keep three max players under contract.  Even on the Heat, all three guys weren't on MAX deals. 

Let's face it: Wall, Beal, and Porter are not Pierce, KG, and Ray Allen, or LeBron, Wade, and Bosh.  Only Wall has even made an All Star team and none of them have been All NBA or Team USA.  They're all young, the hope is that they would grow into it, the way that the Warriors young players have, but, in all probability, committing the bulk of your cap space to those three players is not a recipe for title contention.  

Now, it's worth mentioning that this could've been avoided had Ernie signed Otto to an extension over the summer.  They chose to bet AGAINST Otto Porter, and that was clearly a very Ernie Grunfeld thing to do. 

The Wizards can still theoretically function with Porter on a max deal thanks to the cap spike that makes Wall's contract now seem like a bargain.  The hope would then have to be that the cap continues to rise significantly, so that when Wall is up for renewal they have the opportunity to keep him in place - or move Beal at a time when his deal looks less horrendous.  

But it's hard to see how things improve measurably in the near future.  Either you commit all cap space and just try to grow your way out through player development - which has never been this team's strength - or you trade away Wall and/or Beal and go back into rebuilding from the draft - which the Wizards have been equally inept at. 

There is no GOOD option left.  

The one thing we can ALL agree on is that Ernie Grunfeld has no business making those decisions.  Every day that passes with him still on the payroll sets this franchise back further and further. 

To that end:

 

When will they just blow this team up and start over


 

When Ted sells/moves them to Seattle in a few years

..j/k (sort of)

I've said this before, but if Ted refuses to sell then I legit hope he DOES move the team to Seattle.

I'd rather wait five years for an expansion team than go the rest of Ted's natural life watching this dumpster fire.  We play as many games in May as the Seattle Supersonics.  The only difference is that the Seattle Supersonics aren't asking for my money.

 

[gotjz]

I understand the climate of the league now, but that doesn't mean everyone has to succomb. Porter is NOT max player. Neither is Beal, and to be honest I've never been to big on Wall..

Wall as a max player is debatable, but I do understand his numbers compare favorably to other PGs in the league. But I look at Wall as a big stats, bad team guy. The night he scored 52, I knew the game was over when he was hovering around 40 and new career high was in sight. I knew Wall would gun for it jeapordizing the game in the process. More times than not, if Wall has a game like that it's in a game that can't be won, he gives up a ridiculous amount to the opposing guard but outscores due to usage rate. (Payton actually had the much better game, think it was like 25pts on 12 attempts), or it's against a terrible team meaningless game.

Notice how Wall gets lost in the all-star game? He sinks low against elite talent. I'm taking Kemba and Kyrie just to name a few east guards. Not big on Lowry, but I believe he'd serve the Wiz better. More grit, more of a dog.

Otto has definitely developed a bit better than I initially thought. But a wing that can't create, and is a little better than average defensively... Is this better than a prime and focused Trevor ariza? Better than Matt Barnes? Healthy Wes? Porter vs KCP?

With where we're at, propelling Porter to anything better than a solid role player is desperate. But solid role guys get MAX'd now lol

 

[jjs07]

I understand the climate of the league now, but that doesn't mean everyone has to succomb. Porter is NOT max player. Neither is Beal, and to be honest I've never been to big on Wall..

Wall as a max player is debatable, but I do understand his numbers compare favorably to other PGs in the league. But I look at Wall as a big stats, bad team guy. The night he scored 52, I knew the game was over when he was hovering around 40 and new career high was in sight. I knew Wall would gun for it jeapordizing the game in the process. More times than not, if Wall has a game like that it's in a game that can't be won, he gives up a ridiculous amount to the opposing guard but outscores due to usage rate. (Payton actually had the much better game, think it was like 25pts on 12 attempts), or it's against a terrible team meaningless game.

Notice how Wall gets lost in the all-star game? He sinks low against elite talent. I'm taking Kemba and Kyrie just to name a few east guards. Not big on Lowry, but I believe he'd serve the Wiz better. More grit, more of a dog.

Otto has definitely developed a bit better than I initially thought. But a wing that can't create, and is a little better than average defensively... Is this better than a prime and focused Trevor ariza? Better than Matt Barnes? Healthy Wes? Porter vs KCP?

With where we're at, propelling Porter to anything better than a solid role player is desperate. But solid role guys get MAX'd now lol

We can debate Otto...but, Wall???? Man....u guys today

We have 60+ more games to play, so Otto's numbers may dip...but if he continues on this same path, this season (statistically) will be better than anything Ariza/Barnes/Matthews/KCP have ever done.

I've been lukewarm on Otto until this season. I wasn't keen on the Brooks hire, but if there was one positive he had going for him, it was that he's good at player development. Player development was something that Randy NEVER took seriously. He'd rather put a rotting corpse out on the floor than give some of his younger guys minutes. You can probably make a case for Otto's development being stunted a bit due to Wittman's stubbornness towards younger players.

This season has been different for Porter. The Brooks hire has been most beneficial to him out of any other player on the roster. IMO, he's got to be the front-runner (or near the top) for MIP. He's taken his game to a new level and I'm a believer in what he can bring to the table. Hands down the 2nd most important/best player on the roster due to what he brings on both ends of the floor. As Methodical Management said, he's getting buckets efficiently without having things force fed or having plays run for him. The latter part of the statement is probably going to be the next step in his development. He'll get there. For now, I'm content with Otto getting anywhere between 12-15ppg off of hustle, 2nd chances, open looks, etc. There is no one better on the team at cutting and moving w/o the ball. He's earning his money and SHOULD get the max without a question. Wizards can't afford to let him walk. He's that important.

In regards to what you were saying about Wall's scoring, read this:

Stop saying John Wall is padding his stats this season

 

[gotjz]

^^good article drop. And to your defense, I'm positive you've watched more Wiz games even NBA games for that matter this year thus far. But you and the article are placing sole emphasis on the numbers. He's putting up better numbers with a much record in a still very bad east. What playoff eastern teams got considerably better? Porter has been good, but what's the ceiling? He scores without getting plays for him because why would you sacrifice plays that call his number? But we'll see as the season plays. Just beyond tired of the Wiz.

 

[mrtarheel]

The team is not terrible because of Otto. This is what you're not understanding. If you can give me one good reason as to why the team is faltering due to his play or some other variable, I'd happily entertain the thought of letting him go. That's not the case.

Anyways...

The Wizards Are Dead, Ernie Grunfeld Has Killed Them

I never said that we were trash because of Otto, but would we be that much worse without him? Instead of 7 wins we have 4 without him Lol.

There is no point in giving him the max to continue this mediocrity.

Just because another team will give a player a max deal does not mean he's worth a max deal. ex Beal

If you can't create your own shot, if you can't make an all star team, you are not a max player in my opinion.

 

[Methodical Management]

^^good article drop. And to your defense, I'm positive you've watched more Wiz games even NBA games for that matter this year thus far. But you and the article are placing sole emphasis on the numbers. He's putting up better numbers with a much record in a still very bad east. What playoff eastern teams got considerably better? Porter has been good, but what's the ceiling? He scores without getting plays for him because why would you sacrifice plays that call his number? But we'll see as the season plays. Just beyond tired of the Wiz.

The issue with Porter is much like the players to whom he's been compared:  he's not going to carry your team.  He's probably not even going to turn your good team into a great team.  To me, he's a guy who can turn a great team into a CHAMPIONSHIP team. 

Championship teams need players like Otto Porter.  A lot of us felt his ceiling was probably an exemplary 3 and D guy, like Bruce Bowen - but he's shown flashes of being more than that.  If we weren't force feeding Beal, don't you think Porter could easily average 20 and 8?  If you look at the market, a lot of teams are paying max money for 20 and 8 these days.  

Nobody thinks Otto will be Kawhi Leonard (who Ernie passed on in favor of Jan Vesely), in part because Kawhi Leonard wouldn't be Kawhi Leonard if not for the Spurs.  So it's fair to say, "why PAY him like Kawhi Leonard?"  But that's the problem with the max:  a player who might make $40 million a season in an uncapped league is knocked down to $25 million.  So, yes, a $25 million player is expected to earn the same as a $25 million player who could be making $40 million.  That's just the system we have today.

If the '96 Bulls were playing in today's league, it would be unjust, from a merit standpoint, to have MJ and Pippen making the same money - let alone MJ and Dennis Rodman.  But, if you were the Bulls, how important was Rodman to that team?  In retrospect, wouldn't he have been worth the max?  He was highly specialized, but essential.

People who like Porter know the Wizards really need someone exactly like him if they are ever to compete for a championship.  They don't want to let him go, because they know that, if they do, that's basically letting go of any hope of contention.  At that point, you may as well trade Wall.  You are conceding that your core will not win and even your "once in a generation" franchise player cannot save you.  It's admitting that no contending team can reasonably be built here in the next five years.  

If you don't like Porter, either you've overestimating what the Wizards are capable of getting in free agency, or you've already given up and have resigned yourself to a full Sixers-style rebuild. 

Personally, I would argue that you should retain any player you think will hold their value.  At least then you have options on the trade market.  Letting them go for nothing is only useful if you think you can get greater value in free agency - and why on Earth would anyone of value come here?  We had to grossly overpay just to bring in Ian Mahinmi for crying out loud. 

 

[gotjz]

^^100% on the money about Porter. Turns a great team into a championship team. Problem is with what we have now, great team is not to be had unless crazy signings of marquee players. If Wall is your hands down best player, you're not a great team IMHO. If he's 1A/1B, then that's a different story. Of course with great role players. Let's rebuild now to get it out the way. Cle still around for 2, 3 years.

 

[mrtarheel]

 
The issue with Porter is much like the players to whom he's been compared:  he's not going to carry your team.  He's probably not even going to turn your good team into a great team.  To me, he's a guy who can turn a great team into a CHAMPIONSHIP team. 

Championship teams need players like Otto Porter.  A lot of us felt his ceiling was probably an exemplary 3 and D guy, like Bruce Bowen - but he's shown flashes of being more than that.  If we weren't force feeding Beal, don't you think Porter could easily average 20 and 8?  If you look at the market, a lot of teams are paying max money for 20 and 8 these days.  

Nobody thinks Otto will be Kawhi Leonard (who Ernie passed on in favor of Jan Vesely), in part because Kawhi Leonard wouldn't be Kawhi Leonard if not for the Spurs.  So it's fair to say, "why PAY him like Kawhi Leonard?"  But that's the problem with the max:  a player who might make $40 million a season in an uncapped league is knocked down to $25 million.  So, yes, a $25 million player is expected to earn the same as a $25 million player who could be making $40 million.  That's just the system we have today.

If the '96 Bulls were playing in today's league, it would be unjust, from a merit standpoint, to have MJ and Pippen making the same money - let alone MJ and Dennis Rodman.  But, if you were the Bulls, how important was Rodman to that team?  In retrospect, wouldn't he have been worth the max?  He was highly specialized, but essential.

People who like Porter know the Wizards really need someone exactly like him if they are ever to compete for a championship.  They don't want to let him go, because they know that, if they do, that's basically letting go of any hope of contention.  At that point, you may as well trade Wall.  You are conceding that your core will not win and even your "once in a generation" franchise player cannot save you.  It's admitting that no contending team can reasonably be built here in the next five years.  

If you don't like Porter, either you've overestimating what the Wizards are capable of getting in free agency, or you've already given up and have resigned yourself to a full Sixers-style rebuild. 

Personally, I would argue that you should retain any player you think will hold their value.  At least then you have options on the trade market.  Letting them go for nothing is only useful if you think you can get greater value in free agency - and why on Earth would anyone of value come here?  We had to grossly overpay just to bring in Ian Mahinmi for crying out loud. 

Right, Otto turns a "great" team into a "championship" team.... We are even a decent team now, so let trade him and rebuild this thing.

Get rid of Ernie and build it right

Otherwise we re-sign Otto and become second round playoff contenders once again. 

 

[jking0821]

Yesterday the Wiz were a topic on around the horn and PTI.
Was interesting to hear the PTI guys say moving John Wall was a possibility. I always thought of him as the cornerstone but if we are looking for a complete overhaul he might be our most valuable piece.

I know everyone says it but Otto would do wonders on the Spurs (i know who wouldn't). But a contender like OKC maybe would love to add Otto to that rotation. He to me is way better than Roberson. But knowing our front office we trade otto for like Olidipo or something stupid and not ask for draft picks.

 

[jjs07]

Man...

Windhorst getting sense that Wall wants out of D.C.

Brian Windhorst shares his thoughts on John Wall ripping his team for their lack of effort this season, and suspects that Wall is having thoughts of leaving the Wizards, which should give the organization urgency to make him happy.

Link to Vid

But you know what? Good.

I'm glad this is starting to get national attention. Maybe it will be the wakeup call those in charge need to make changes ASAP.

What sense does it make to keep Ernie on board if he's only going to be fired at the end of the season? Cut your losses NOW. Look at what's happening to the team and the best player we've had in DC in decades. First and foremost, he (Wall) deserves better. Secondly, so do the fans.

 

[gotjz]

Another curiosity I have and by no means do I want to derail, but is Wall the best player in decades...? Better than prime Gil that's focused and before injury? Gil is one of the best we've seen here. Legit superstar on the rise, had us as a true contender. We just had a kryptonite that wasn't impossible to defeat.

 

[jjs07]

Another curiosity I have and by no means do I want to derail, but is Wall the best player in decades...? Better than prime Gil that's focused and before injury? Gil is one of the best we've seen here. Legit superstar on the rise, had us as a true contender. We just had a kryptonite that wasn't impossible to defeat.

Prime Gil was for 3 years. Unfortunately he got injured. Wall is on a better trajectory, IMO.

And not to nit-pick, but the Wizards weren't anywhere close to being true contenders with Gil/Jamison/Butler as the big 3.

 

[suberzat1]

So what teams would he up to grab Wall in a trade?

 

[jjs07]

So what teams would he up to grab Wall in a trade?

Boston and Denver come to mind...young assets + picks. Very enticing return, IMO.

However, I don't think we're anywhere near the point of dealing Wall (yet.)

 

[gotjz]

Hell of a 3 years then. And only thing that stood in our way were the cavs and missed free throws lol. We could run with anybody in the league at that time. But yea, not close to dealing wall unfortunately smh

 

[madj55]

View media item 2255512

 

[jjs07]

This is good, tho. I'm glad fans are not putting any money into supporting a terrible product. Enough is enough. Hopefully something gives...like EG is canned.

 

[frshstunna]

Problem with trading Wall is most teams never get an even or better return for a franchise player ...but y'all know Ernie is absolutely gon get FLEECED in a Wall trade ...I would rather try to move Beal n get somebody that Wall wants To play with , that should be an easier deal for Ernie to make

 

[jesusshuttlesworth34]

Problem with trading Wall is most teams never get an even or better return for a franchise player ...but y'all know Ernie is absolutely gon get FLEECED in a Wall trade ...I would rather try to move Beal n get somebody that Wall wants To play with , that should be an easier deal for Ernie to make

MIDAS WELL trade Beal & Everybody else for Boogie Cousins. Make that deal work somehow...free lifetime passes to Stadium/Park/etc. Unlimited supply of Ben's Half Smokes!

Wall Porter Cousins.....

 

[frshstunna]

Beal, oubre, a pick and filler for cousins and a few random players would work ...the kings seemed determined to hold on to him tho unless they can get a Lebron or KD tho...the kings are stupid

 

[jjs07]

Yay...

Ian Mahinmi to get second MRI on his knee, according to report