Thanks for the change, Obama.

[maelstroom]

Using data from the National Priorities Project, ThinkProgress calculated ten investments America could’ve afforded if it didn’t spend $113 billion — the allotment made in Fiscal Year 2011 — on the war in Afghanistan. Each one of these policy options represents an equivalent $113 billion cost:

– Provide 57.5 Million Children With Low-Income Health Care For 2011

– Provide 23 Million People With Low-Income Health Coverage In 2011

– Give 20.2 Million $5,500 Pell Grants To Students In 2011

– Provide 14.35 million Military Veterans With VA Medical Care In 2011

– Give 14.7 million Children Head Start Funding In 2011

– Give 14.26 Million Scholarships To University Students In 2011

– Employ 1.93 million Firefighters In 2011

– Hire 1.75 Million Elementary School Teachers In 2011

- Hire 1.65 Million Police Officers In 2011

– Equip 67.8 Million Households With The Ability To Use Wind Power In 2011

– Equip 25.39 Million Households With The Ability To Use Solar Photovoltaic Energy In 2011

Of course, none of this accounts for the human cost of losing our sons and daughters in war. 177 American soldiers have died in combat in 2011, and countless Afghans lost their lives as well.

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

wawaweewa wrote:
That volatility defense for staying is complete horses---.  If it's in your interest to withdraw, than you withdrew. You don't follow irrational actions by more irrational actions. 
The European colonial powers all withdrew from their former colonies and yes, they left a mess. However, it was in their interest to withdraw and so they did. 

The problem is that for certain entities in the US, wars are great. They generate lots of revenue and produce tidy sums of profit. We're in Iraq and Afghanistan for 2 major reasons. It feeds the military-industrial complex and it advances a US geopolitical position which some technocrats concocted because a hegemonic US gives them orgasms. 

I realize Obama can't end the wars overnight but over the past 2.5 years there's been no indication that  he's the one who wants to finally end these ill fated adventures. For whatever reason, he seems to be fine with the status quo so long as the media are complicit and in the pro war camp and we don't get body counts akin to Vietnam. 

It was in their interest to withdraw and they certainly did, and the mess they left has us stuck in the position we're in today. You simply don't create a mess, admit it isn't working for you anymore, and then leave. That is ridiculous. If you think leaving one of the most oil rich countries in the region to simply destabilize into civil war is in our interests then your opinion should automatically be invalid. Why do you think we supported these dictators for so long? Because America hates democracy? No. We did it so we wouldn't have to deal with instability in countries that provide us with our lifeblood. And it worked for a very long time. 
You're second point has a lot to do with it as well. The defense industry is huge in America and it's certainly in our interest to keep that moving, not to mention that there are clearly close ties to the government there. U.S. hegemony is on the decline as it is, this may in fact also be the last of American muscle flexing. 

Also, you're flat out lying that there is no indication he wants to end the war in Iraq. Evidence: Here and here.

ow. 

Afghanistan is a completely different issue, and is where we should have been focused in the first place. Maybe if a pointless war wasn't started in Iraq we wouldn't have to possibly negotiate with the Taliban n

You mistake irrationality for pragmatism. Yes, you simply can admit you made a mistake and end it there. We certainly did that in Vietnam and we had folks like you yelling that th entire globe would fall to the communists. Meanwhile, the Soviets were literally a third rate power save for their nuclear weapons. Did the the world fall  to the communists?  Did the US lose it's superpower status? 
This is just reactionary fear mongering. You're going to have civil war there unless you have a strongman like Saddam. Instead of Saddam it's now us and the Muj's. Nothing's changed. 

We import about 3% of our petrol from Iraq. At the very best, we'll import may be 5-6%. We import over 60% from non OPEC nations and the real power player in the oil world is Russia. Their production changes can sway prices more than any other oil producing nation. 

This isn't about the oil market. This is about producing business for a certain sector of the US economy and about advancing an agenda. 

What's even more screwed up is that defense spending has been shown to produce the least amount of return on the dollar when compared to other industries.  The fact that the defense sector is the only sector save for healthcare to have real growth the past decade is not something to be celebrated. Not only does it produce poor growth returns  from an economic perspective but it produces ever more problems instead of solutions. It's suicide and it's not sustainable. 

 

[wawaweewa]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR

wawaweewa wrote:
That volatility defense for staying is complete horses---.  If it's in your interest to withdraw, than you withdrew. You don't follow irrational actions by more irrational actions. 
The European colonial powers all withdrew from their former colonies and yes, they left a mess. However, it was in their interest to withdraw and so they did. 

The problem is that for certain entities in the US, wars are great. They generate lots of revenue and produce tidy sums of profit. We're in Iraq and Afghanistan for 2 major reasons. It feeds the military-industrial complex and it advances a US geopolitical position which some technocrats concocted because a hegemonic US gives them orgasms. 

I realize Obama can't end the wars overnight but over the past 2.5 years there's been no indication that  he's the one who wants to finally end these ill fated adventures. For whatever reason, he seems to be fine with the status quo so long as the media are complicit and in the pro war camp and we don't get body counts akin to Vietnam. 

It was in their interest to withdraw and they certainly did, and the mess they left has us stuck in the position we're in today. You simply don't create a mess, admit it isn't working for you anymore, and then leave. That is ridiculous. If you think leaving one of the most oil rich countries in the region to simply destabilize into civil war is in our interests then your opinion should automatically be invalid. Why do you think we supported these dictators for so long? Because America hates democracy? No. We did it so we wouldn't have to deal with instability in countries that provide us with our lifeblood. And it worked for a very long time. 
You're second point has a lot to do with it as well. The defense industry is huge in America and it's certainly in our interest to keep that moving, not to mention that there are clearly close ties to the government there. U.S. hegemony is on the decline as it is, this may in fact also be the last of American muscle flexing. 

Also, you're flat out lying that there is no indication he wants to end the war in Iraq. Evidence: Here and here.

ow. 

Afghanistan is a completely different issue, and is where we should have been focused in the first place. Maybe if a pointless war wasn't started in Iraq we wouldn't have to possibly negotiate with the Taliban n

You mistake irrationality for pragmatism. Yes, you simply can admit you made a mistake and end it there. We certainly did that in Vietnam and we had folks like you yelling that th entire globe would fall to the communists. Meanwhile, the Soviets were literally a third rate power save for their nuclear weapons. Did the the world fall  to the communists?  Did the US lose it's superpower status? 
This is just reactionary fear mongering. You're going to have civil war there unless you have a strongman like Saddam. Instead of Saddam it's now us and the Muj's. Nothing's changed. 

We import about 3% of our petrol from Iraq. At the very best, we'll import may be 5-6%. We import over 60% from non OPEC nations and the real power player in the oil world is Russia. Their production changes can sway prices more than any other oil producing nation. 

This isn't about the oil market. This is about producing business for a certain sector of the US economy and about advancing an agenda. 

What's even more screwed up is that defense spending has been shown to produce the least amount of return on the dollar when compared to other industries.  The fact that the defense sector is the only sector save for healthcare to have real growth the past decade is not something to be celebrated. Not only does it produce poor growth returns  from an economic perspective but it produces ever more problems instead of solutions. It's suicide and it's not sustainable. 

 

[maelstroom]

Just found this interesting...Apparently there are sources saying the US might deploy ground troops in Libya by November...

 

[maelstroom]

Just found this interesting...Apparently there are sources saying the US might deploy ground troops in Libya by November...