Ghetto Basketball??? Those Crazy Germans...

[Methodical Management]

you can rationalize his situation however u want but at the end of the day fans hate him because he has the potential to be the greatest ever but the mentality of a spoiled rich kid who always gets what he wants.

So having "the mentality of a spoiled rich kid who always gets what he wants" is ghetto now?  This just gets better by the second. 
I'm not defending LeBron's arrogance, and I've said that many times.  I just don't see his arrogance as ample justification for racist backlash - and if there's no element of racism present, why the racial disparity and why the use of racialized stereotypes like "ghetto?"  

and lebron and wade have definitely been exposed to ghetto environments. u dont get that nice playin strictly in the burbs.

By your logic, Dirk Nowitzki must be "ghetto," too, because you can't become Finals MVP otherwise.  Raw stereotype.

 

[abutta13]

not once did i call lebron ghetto. this article to me is a lot like when kids just say ridiculous things to get attention and piss people off. they are trying to trigger a response but when something is so stupid like this article for example it simply deserves to be ignored. yes i agree with u that the fact that lebron is black could possibly increase some of the hate he receives. but to argue that it is one of the main reasons he is so hated is simply ridiculous. i also never said anything about dirk being ghetto or not. i simply said that u do not get as good as lebron or wade without playing atleast some ball in the hood. its more their style of play i was referring to. you can just tell by the way they play. especially wade he does some things on the court that u only learn ballin in the hood.

 

[|A-Man|]

Honestly it's stuff like that clues me in to what some white ppl are thinking. Like this is what yall are concerned with in the back of your minds? These are the grudges your clinging to to maintain racism?

Never even dawned on me that it's been nothing but black Finals MVPs since Bird.

EDIT

Damn, paid off to enter this thread and catch Meth's posts

This issue being raised now takes me back to when LeBron said a lot of the backlash for the Decision and those doing it were racist and Jesse/Al pointing out that Dan Gilbert had a slave master's mentality. It's funny cuz at the time LeBron got criticized even more for saying that and even I laughed off the slave master mentality comment.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by abutta13

not once did i call lebron ghetto. this article to me is a lot like when kids just say ridiculous things to get attention and piss people off. they are trying to trigger a response but when something is so stupid like this article for example it simply deserves to be ignored. yes i agree with u that the fact that lebron is black could possibly increase some of the hate he receives. but to argue that it is one of the main reasons he is so hated is simply ridiculous. i also never said anything about dirk being ghetto or not. i simply said that u do not get as good as lebron or wade without playing atleast some ball in the hood. its more their style of play i was referring to. you can just tell by the way they play. especially wade he does some things on the court that u only learn ballin in the hood.

Thats gotta be the stupidiest %%# ive heard. Key example ive seen and balled around j.williams lenty of times and dude has that so call "hood ball" style yet he is from a backwood hicktown in w.virginia with a pop. less then most highschools. Um what about steve nash dude aint nowhere near being around a hood. Ppl dismissed what meth said then its responses like this that reassure and confirm the very subconcious ignorance and sometimes underlying racist thoughts ppl have.

 

[0cks]

I totally agree with Meth's stance, this article damn near makes the same point
http://www.thepostgame.com/commentary/201106/hypocrisy-lebron-hatred

 

[ceddie]

Originally Posted by 0cks

I totally agree with Meth's stance, this article damn near makes the same point
http://www.thepostgame.com/commentary/201106/hypocrisy-lebron-hatred

Thanks for the link.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Originally Posted by Method Man

Damn I never even thought about the White Star vs. "This is what is wrong with the game" Black Dudes, matchup during the finals. Hmmm, I am sure it mattered to some.

It mattered a lot to some folks - and there's no question that many were tacitly motivated by racism.  This German article simply translates the code-speak that our countrymen use only to fool themselves.

Let's call this "team basketball" "one for all and all for one" hype out for what it is.  It's the same rhetoric used when promoting Duke against the Fab Five and has less to do with each team's actual demography than what they supposedly "represent."  

There's no question that this was sold as another "great white hope" scenario.  The so-called "team play" angle is cut from the same cloth as the stereotype that White players are all about hustle, teamwork, commitment and fundamentals, whereas Black athletes are reduced to primitive bundles of fast-twitch muscle who slide by on raw, natural athletic talent.  Language like "supreme physical specimen" seems lifted from the vernacular of a slave auction and is reserved almost exclusively for Black athletes.  So, even though he's a 7 foot tall perimeter player, Dirk Nowitzki is considered a blue collar, "Larry Bird" type rather than a "freak of nature."  (Despite their similarities, I've never heard anyone compare Kevin Durant to Larry Bird - and he is frequently referred to as a genetic freak.)

When you look at the Dallas Mavs, you don't see a lot of players really sacrificing their individual games for the better of the team to the same extent as, say, the 2008 Boston Celtics.  I didn't once hear ANYONE present Lakers/Celtics as "ghetto basketball" vs. "team basketball," even if Kobe Bryant is often considered the epitome of selfishness.  (To the point where, if he's called selfish, he might pout and decide to hurt his team by refusing to shoot simply to prove his worth.)  Championship teams generally consist of players with different specializations working in concert.  That's an angle that could conceivably be pitched every year.  What about when the "starless" Detroit Pistons beat the ultimate group of ring-chasers, the 2004 LA Lakers?  Did Rasheed Wallace help lead the charge against "ghetto basketball" then?  Of course not - and we all know why.

The Dallas Mavericks are NOT a Cinderella story.  The Mavs spent nearly $24 million MORE on player salaries this year than the Miami Heat.  Only the Lakers have a higher payroll.  Dirk Nowitzki is accepting almost $3 million MORE than LeBron James this year alone.  

There are plenty of reasons to dislike LeBron James.  Perhaps you don't think he's deserved all of the accolades he's received.  Perhaps you're sick of watching him get away with "crab dribbles" and offensive fouls.  Perhaps you think he's a narcissist.  Hating LeBron James for exercising his right to choose his own employer, however, is a stupid reason to dislike him - even if you live in Ohio.  He wanted the chance to work with his best friend.  Wouldn't that be a valid reason for any of us to consider changing employers?  All things being equal, I think most of us would prefer to work with people we like and live somewhere with a pleasant climate.  The so-called "big three" all left money on the table in order to do so.  Udonis Haslem turned down a big contract from the Dallas Mavericks and accepted far less than he was worth to stay with the franchise that drafted him.  If you wanted to cheer for the team that put winning ahead of individual salaries... that team was the Miami Heat, not the Dallas Mavericks.  

You can call them ring chasers, but they were no more desperate in their pursuit than Mark Cuban.  If you hate seeing millionaires whine when things don't get their way... then Mark Cuban fits that bill as well as LeBron James.

Don't get me wrong:  I happen to dislike LeBron James as a player (I'm a Wizards fan, for starters, but the Jordan comparisons also irk the hell out of me) and I did want to see the Heat lose (in part because I thought Wade's attempt to pull Rondo down, which accidentally resulted in the dislocation of Rondo's elbow, was a dirty play and also, in part, because of the premature celebration the team staged at the so-called big three's rock concert introduction, before they'd played a single game together.)  Playful jabs and gamesmanship are part of sports.  It's the seething, personal hatred that I don't understand.  

Look at longtime media darling Brett Favre.  As much as ESPN hyped the LeBron's free agency to oblivion, the network once had a dedicated Brett Favre section of their news ticker.  Favre's stretched the self-aggrandizing "will he or won't he" act out over the last four seasons.  He even signed with Green Bay's bitter division rivals and sexually harassed an employee of the New York Jets.  He may be a punchline, but the overall level of vitriol against him has never approached what LeBron James faces.  

Honestly, I think people are tapping into this feeling that LeBron James doesn't "know his place."   LeBron was, apparently, the property of Cleveland, Ohio and Dan Gilbert.  How DARE he leave at the end of his contract and select his own place of employment!  Who does he think he is?  How DARE he create his own self-serving reality show to announce his decision?  (An concept concocted by Jim Gray, by the way.)   How DARE he emphasize that we, the hoi polloi, must return to our mundane lives, while he gets to wake up tomorrow in a cavernous mansion?  

People want to humble him, to see him submit and become deferential, to acknowledge that he "owes it all to the fans," and is, somehow, their servant - and not, under any circumstances, their better.  

You can't tell me that such an attitude isn't tinged by racism.  


I'm sorry but I don't agree.

People will dismiss my post because I'm a Mavs fan but literally every single player that dressed for the Mavs during this playoff run had major impact during the playoffs.  I'm talking the end of the bench dudes like Cardinal and Brewer.

The Dallas Mavericks had the second most assists per game of any team in the NBA. If that ain't team basketball I don't know what is.

What you are doing with this response is what you are accusing other people of. Because the Dallas Mavericks are lead by a white guy you are trying to marginalize what they are and what they accomplished.

 

[SneakerProSr.]

One more thing.

You have never heard Dirk Nowitzki refereed to as a 7ft freak of nature.

Really?

 

[wade187]

Originally Posted by Method Man

That's what you call proof?

 So is their a poll showing how many NBA fans dont bother with these polls? Is there a poll showing how many of those non-caring fans are black? So all them whites didn't hate the black man until he switched sides, but deep down it's cause of his pigment that they have this animosity? This is what your getting at? K Meth

Let's compare this to your "proof," i.e. "race has nothing to do with it cuz I know Black guys who hate Lebron James, too!  SO THERE!  What a JOKE!" 
There's a racial disparity here and not only were you unaware of it, but you have no way of explaining it, either.  So, instead, you just deny the whole thing.  Nice work.  

Your questions show that you lack a fundamental understanding of how opinion polling works.  Q Scores may not be "the all seeing eye," but nor are they voluntary web polls.  You're dealing with large samples drawn so as to be representative, so the self-selection bias doesn't apply.  If you want to present a critique of their sampling methodology, be my guest, but simply saying, "they didn't ask EVERYONE" isn't going to cut it.  

Racism in today's society often operates within the subconscious.  I don't expect many people to say, straight up, that they resent LeBron James because he refused to demonstrate due deference and "know his place," much less that such sentiments have been influenced by racism.  All they know is that, now, they just plain don't like the guy.  If you ask why LeBron, in particular, is treated this way compared to other athletes, or why they hated Steve Francis for doing exactly what Eli Manning received virtually no backlash for doing, they'll often have difficulty attempting to explain what, for them, was a simply a "gut feeling."  

These are prejudices.  It's like asking someone to logically explain why they hate gay men or why they tend to have lower opinions of women in authority positions.

^ That first article Method Man posted seems to point more to the fact that when a problem arises, some black people will defend other black people regardless "guilt" or "innocence." It refers to this as "black protectionism." 

Couldn't you say it is this phenomenon that accounts for the survey results just as easily as you could say it's due to racism? 

The point of the link was simply to offer a citation for the poll results, so people didn't think I just plucked them out of thin air (again, nobody else seems to feel any need to substantiate their opinions, but that's to be expected.)  The data are subject to interpretation, of course, but there's no reason to believe that the so-called "White" response to LeBron James is the "correct" one and that ONLY people of color have been influenced by race.  Even if we're to take the "Black protectionism" article at full face value, it's nonetheless a reaction to racism.  We've seen this sort of lynch mob mentality attack one celebrity after another, and so it's no surprise that, for some, the tendency is to defend a Michael Vick, for example, against his oft-hypocritical detractors.
Racism is a factor.  CLEARLY, we see that with this whole "ghetto basketball" stereotype.  How often was LeBron James accused of playing "ghetto basketball" for the Cavaliers?  Instead, everyone played up how he "made his teammates better" through his passing ability.  

I'd argue that LeBron James became "ghetto," to some people, when he rejected the "worker bee" mentality.  His game on the court hasn't changed.  Really, his personality isn't any different, either.  So, what suddenly made him "ghetto?"  What does "ghetto" mean in this context?  

"race has nothing to do with it cuz I know Black guys who hate Lebron James, too!  SO THERE!  What a JOKE!" This was never said by me, so why you have it in quotes is beyond me. I was simply saying that I know just as many fans that hate Lebron now who are of color. Other than the Lebron D riders everyone does. Idc what your polls are saying, or what kinda poll it is, because I can guarantee you that everyone on here who is around minorities or people of color or whatever you wanna call it will tell you the same. This "Whole" ghetto basketball thing is coming from ONE journalist, who when you translate the article correctly clearly used the word ghetto in his title for lack of a better word. Racism is alive, but you're without a doubt magnifying it, when in this case it is minuscule. So yeah, race plays a part in everything, but that's just the thing it plays a part in EVERYTHING so the same argument, you are making, or at least trying to make can be said for anything that goes on point blank. 

 

[wade187]

Originally Posted by LDJ

Originally Posted by abutta13

not once did i call lebron ghetto. this article to me is a lot like when kids just say ridiculous things to get attention and piss people off. they are trying to trigger a response but when something is so stupid like this article for example it simply deserves to be ignored. yes i agree with u that the fact that lebron is black could possibly increase some of the hate he receives. but to argue that it is one of the main reasons he is so hated is simply ridiculous. i also never said anything about dirk being ghetto or not. i simply said that u do not get as good as lebron or wade without playing atleast some ball in the hood. its more their style of play i was referring to. you can just tell by the way they play. especially wade he does some things on the court that u only learn ballin in the hood.

Thats gotta be the stupidiest %%# ive heard. Key example ive seen and balled around j.williams lenty of times and dude has that so call "hood ball" style yet he is from a backwood hicktown in w.virginia with a pop. less then most highschools. Um what about steve nash dude aint nowhere near being around a hood. Ppl dismissed what meth said then its responses like this that reassure and confirm the very subconcious ignorance and sometimes underlying racist thoughts ppl have.

Do you even play ball? Cause what he is saying is in fact true, and J. Williams and Nash are completely different than what he is referring to. He isn't referring to flare or the flash when it comes to their game which is what Nash and J. Will have. He also is referring to street ball, not ball in the hood. Although basketball in the hood is a little rougher which is what I think he is getting at. But Lebron and Wade, play very aggresive, and can play through contact which is something you get from playing street ball, and getting used to being roughed up a bit. They also use unorthodox angles to force the ball in that also comes from playing a rougher game, because in the streets you aren't getting those calls so you gotta find different ways to score.

 

[10027]

I think it's a little unfair to paint Heat-haters or Mavs fans as latent racists, even though that might be true for a very small minority. The fact is that among those of us who are devoted NBA fans, even if we are white or asian, we've been used to rooting for black players since we were little kids... Almost all our favorite players are black, etc. Race doesn't become a factor in whether or not we like a guy after a while simply because the league is so dominated by black guys. If you were someone who only wanted to root for white players, you would not be an NBA fan, pure and simple.

Many people disliked Lebron and Wade for things that had nothing to do with their race—the favoritism they get from the refs, their perceived arrogance and lack of humility, the fawning love they always got from ESPN and the media despite a lack of real achievement. Sorry, but those things have nothing to do with being black. For you to suggest they do is, frankly, racist in and of itself. Most fans that complained about Lebron's personality weren't drawing a contrast between him and Dirk (really?) but between him and plenty of black players they loved, who we've always seen as having more class, or more killer instinct, or more loyalty, or more humility—Ray Allen, or Kobe, or Pierce, or Kevin Durant.

To be honest I am someone of mixed-race and I am not quick to dismiss charges of under-the-surface racism because I know it exists, but when people make arguments like this I think they have a fundamental paranoia or misunderstanding about how 'white people at large' actually think. Generations of white NBA fans grew up with posters of Patrick Ewing or Barkley or Jordan in their rooms, hated Larry Bird, loved Magic Johnson, whatever. And now they hate Lebron because he was black and didn't know his place? Give me a damn break... It's just a naive viewpoint.

 

[thegoldenchild]

Originally Posted by North Dade Represent

Craziness, they acted like Iverson, Stephen Jackson, and Kenyon Martin have been winning championships left and right for the last 20 years.

Tim Duncan is as wholesome as you can get and he won 4 chips.

Other than England, Europe is completely lost when it comes to their perception of American culture and African American culture specifically.

other than england? please... you act like americans know so much about the rest of the world.. all they know is mexico, and canada. so before you judge all of europe, make sure you know what you are talking about or just sit down and shut up

 

[Methodical Management]

The Dallas Mavericks had the second most assists per game of any team in the NBA. If that ain't team basketball I don't know what is. 

And LeBron averages more assists per game than Dirk.  By your standard, LeBron is more of a team player than Dirk. 

What you are doing with this response is what you are accusing other people of. Because the Dallas Mavericks are lead by a white guy you are trying to marginalize what they are and what they accomplished. 

The pet tactic used by deniers of racism is inversion.  e.g. "You're the only one even talking about race, therefore you're the REAL racist here."  That is laughably naïve.  
That's like telling scientists in Fukushima, "I don't SEE any radiation at all.  You know what I think?  I think you made the whole thing up.  The only damage I see was caused by the earthquake.  I think YOU'RE the one who's  forced us from our homes and sickened our children with your funny equipment, and now you're just blaming the whole thing on some invisible enemy.  You scientists are the REAL disaster here."  

So many people want to simplify this to a crude and comical extent, yet I've said all along that it isn't an all or nothing proposition.  There are reasons to like the Dallas Mavs and reasons to dislike LeBron James that extend beyond racism, but these sentiments have been amplified beyond reason.  Again, when you analyze them logically, what you find is that people are grasping at straws to try and specify what, in truth, is just a "gut feeling."  They like Dallas; they hate Miami.  Ask them for particular criteria, though, and the whole thing falls apart.  They won't produce a unique, well defined standard that they, themselves, apply to all such cases.  

Ultimately, it's usually just that one guy "rubs you the wrong way" and the other doesn't.  The reasoning, then, dwells within the subconscious.  It's no surprise that people have struggled so mightily to articulate reasoning that, clearly, is a mystery even to them. 

Generations of white NBA fans grew up with posters of Patrick Ewing or Barkley or Jordan in their rooms, hated Larry Bird, loved Magic Johnson, whatever. And now they hate Lebron because he was black and didn't know his place? Give me a damn break

And in the 1940's many White Americans idolized Charlie Parker, Louis Armstrong, and Billie Holliday.  Truly, it was paradise. 

Many people disliked Lebron and Wade for things that had nothing to do with their race—the favoritism they get from the refs, their perceived arrogance and lack of humility, the fawning love they always got from ESPN and the media despite a lack of real achievement. Sorry, but those things have nothing to do with being black.

Sorry, but none of those things are specific to the 2010-2011 Miami Heat.  LeBron's the same player he was last year.  So is Wade.  Even when NTers were calling him DWhistle, we didn't see anything even remotely close to the level of vitriol on display here.  He remained one of the most popular players in the NBA.

"Fawning love" without "any real achievement," you say?  Tell that to two time MVP and zero time Finals participant Steve Nash.  Where's the backlash there?  Is it too early to hate Derrick Rose for receiving excessive praise?  Or do we give him a pass because he's soft-spoken?  Lest we forget, Wade's the one who bested Dirk's Mavs back in 2006.  If that doesn't qualify as an achievement, than why was Dirk deserving of any praise prior to this June? 

The mass of hatred directed against LeBron James is greater than the sum of its parts.  ("He's arrogant," "he left his team," "the media loves him," "he gets away with travels," etc.)

Your argument is fundamentally incomplete because there's a piece you refuse to acknowledge.  What's perhaps the most unique to this situation is the way that LeBron James defied what was expected of him - and this defiance had a demonstrably different impact on his popularity ratings among Black and White respondents.  

These categories consist of individuals and are not monolithic, so it's not going to be an all or nothing proposition - but in what situation has that ever been the case?  If only 10% of police officers were racist, this in and of itself would still lead to massive disparities in treatment and could, by itself, generate a feedback loop resulting in racially disproportionate prison populations and the perpetuation of stereotypes that racialize of criminality.

Many people disliked Lebron and Wade for things that had nothing to do with their race—the favoritism they get from the refs, their perceived arrogance and lack of humility, the fawning love they always got from ESPN and the media despite a lack of real achievement. Sorry, but those things have nothing to do with being black. For you to suggest they do is, frankly, racist in and of itself.

Talk about inversion:  branding anyone who acknowledges the influence of racism in a given situation as "the real racists" flat out prescribes naïveté and serves to conceal, and therefore perpetuate, racism.  That's what's known academically as "colorblind racism."  

I'm not a big Sarah Palin fan, but I'm at least willing to acknowledge the role sexism plays in the whole Palin phenomenon.  To say, "well, I hate her because she's stupid," is one thing (and it's arguably an inconsistent view, because there's no shortage of idiocy in the world of government), but to say, "and anyone who says that her gender has something to do with it is sexist and naive" is just plain disingenuous.  

 

[SneakerProSr.]

You are changing the argument.

You implied that the Mavs don't really play team ball.  I gave you a stat that proves that do and you marginalize it by posting that stats of two players that play totally different positions.

I actually agree that there has been a lot of sneak racism involved in hating the Heat. However this is a ridiculous argument.

Especially if you actually know the game of basketball and have watched both teams consistently.

 

[10027]

When you make your comment about Charlie Parker, etc., you are distorting my point.  I never said that people who were NBA fans couldn't be racist in the real world...  What I did say is that when we are talking about their role as NBA fans, to claim that they dislike one black player compared to loving many other black players because of racism is silly...  Is it really so hard for you to believe that people saw 'The Decision' special as a reflection not of an uppity black person but as an example of America's out of control cult of celebrity arrogance?

Did Knicks fans (black and white) root against Miami like crazy (and therefore, for Dallas) because of racism?  It's possible....  But far from the most likely outcome.  You haven't offered any real evidence as to why that is true other than that you like to see the world that way.  Maybe people do like Dirk because he is white (many would admit it, I think).  But to claim that they dislike Lebron because he is black is far, far, harder to believe.  Is Steve Nash popular because he is white?  Hell yes.  That does not make your other assertion true.  Besides, the attention LeBron received from the media was far and away more fawning than what Steve Nash ever received (ESPN ranked his game against the Pistons as the 2nd greatest playoff performance of all time).

This[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/font]These categories consist of individuals and are not monolithic, so it's not going to be an all or nothing proposition - but in what situation has that ever been the case?  If only 10% of police officers were racist, this in and of itself would still lead to massive disparities in treatment and could, by itself, generate a feedback loop resulting in racially disproportionate prison populations and the perpetuation of stereotypes that racialize of criminality.

For one, the proportion of NBA fans represented by the extreme racism presented in this article is far smaller than 10%.  For another, the stakes of one fan being a closet racist are not high enough to create any kind of feedback loop like the one you are describing in the case of a police department.  I understand the picture you are drawing here, but it simply doesn't apply.  You are theorizing in a vacuum as far as I am concerned.  

When you say LeBron "defied what was expected of him" I assume you are referring to the "subservient, slave and master" type of argument that some people made in the wake of Dan Gilbert's comments.  But LeBron isn't the first player to leave his team in free agency...  Many others have done the same thing, including most obviously Shaq, and remained tremendously popular.  

I'm running around in circles a little here so let me say this and sum up how I feel about your argument:

TL;DR—You are running down your own rabbit hole as you keep theorizing and theorizing.  Yes, there are worlds in which the picture you see could be correct.  (And are)  But all you are doing in this case is projecting your own beliefs on a situation in which they do not apply in the real world.  Your main point in tying this to reality is that the approval rating of LeBron changed more dramatically among white people than black people in the wake of the decision.  I don't buy that as enough evidence that a huge population of white NBA fans suddenly started to dislike LeBron just because they love to see black people only in a servile position.  You keep drawing wider and wider analogies (Palin?) because you have no actual evidence that your point is true, other than a cynical worldview.

 

[Methodical Management]

You are changing the argument. You implied that the Mavs don't really play team ball.  I gave you a stat that proves that do and you marginalize it by posting that stats of two players that play totally different positions.
Actually, all I "implied" was that they aren't the "underdogs" everyone made them out to be.  The difference between the two teams, in both demography and style of play, is hardly black and white. 
Miami's players sacrificed for the benefit of the team, too, and if you're going to be upset about teams attempting to "buy a championship," you could just as easily accuse the Mavs of doing so as Miami.  If whining irks you, why stop at LeBron?  Mark Cuban whines about calls more than any other owner in the league.  He also makes a greater effort than any other owner in the league to thrust himself into the spotlight.  So how, all of the sudden, did Dallas become "everything right with basketball?"  

Throwing out the assist stat just proves how arbitrarily defined this distinction truly is.  Miami's "big three" sacrificed shot attempts etc. in attempt to benefit the team.  They attempted to achieve what the Boston Celtics' "big three" accomplished, only they fell two wins short.  The difference between Dallas and Miami has been overblown and, in many cases, fabricated based on an archetypal narrative that bears little resemblance to reality.  

But all you are doing in this case is projecting your own beliefs on a situation in which they do not apply in the real world.

Right back at'cha, slick.   
Racism is very much a part of the "real world."  You've just decided that it has no application here because.. well.. because you say so, I suppose.  If anyone's treating sports as a vacuum, it's you.  The rest of us don't see it as wholly isolated from the racist society in which we live. 

Is it really so hard for you to believe that people saw 'The Decision' special as a reflection not of an uppity black person but as an example of America's out of control cult of celebrity arrogance?

Is it really so hard for you to believe that this answer can be "both/and" rather than an overly simplistic case of "either/or?" 

Here's the difference: your opinion fails to account for varying perspectives.  Anyone who disagrees with you is simply "reaching."  My interpretation relies upon and reconciles varying perspectives.  Yours appears to deny them.  You behave as though you have a corner on the assessment of objective reality.

But to claim that they dislike Lebron because he is black is far, far, harder to believe.  Is Steve Nash popular because he is white?  Hell yes.  That does not make your other assertion true.  Besides, the attention LeBron received from the media was far and away more fawning than what Steve Nash ever received (ESPN ranked his game against the Pistons as the 2nd greatest playoff performance of all time).

That's such an irresponsible distortion.  Did I ever say "everyone hates LeBron James because he's Black"?  Last I checked, he's always been Black.  His Blackness has, however, influenced the way that people have responded to his "disloyalty" and "arrogance."  

People don't like the fact that Donald Trump can promise to announce his "decision" regarding a potential presidential campaign on the season finale of his own self-promoting television series, but compare that to what LeBron James faces.  LeBron may be arrogant, but Trump is in a class of his own in that category.  Who's more likely to get egged on the street now?  

Why was this SO exceedingly harsh?  It's funny that you bring up Shaq, because people still remember his "treachery," yet everyone's apparently forgotten about how Steve Nash dumped Dallas and his "best friend" to sign with Phoenix.  As Mark Cuban wrote at the time, "it was Steve's choice to leave for money."  Nobody seems to care about that one.  Had LeBron never left, people would still be using Shaq as the go-to example of free agent disloyalty.  It was a big deal in 1996.

LeBron became a bigger deal for a number of reasons.  He wasn't an average player, to be sure.  He was the reigning MVP.  He was also at the center of an enormous marketing campaign, which forced him front and center in so many living rooms around the world.  Then, too, you had his television special.  The Cavs were his "hometown" team.  Chris Bosh, another former "franchise player," also joined Miami, compounding the effect that the "inmates" were "running the asylum."  These are all contributing factors.  

I'm simply stating that his race was also a factor - and given the racial divide in how he's currently perceived - it's very difficult to argue otherwise without simply covering your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and engaging in denial, because you WISH the world were otherwise.  

Hey, I wish it were otherwise, too, but each day many of us are confronted with the unpleasant reality and do not have the luxury of ignoring it.  

That's sort of the crux of privilege in American life.

A useful exercise for raising men's awareness regarding sexism is to ask everyone in a room to compose a list of daily precautions they take to avoid sexual assault.  Men's lists are pretty empty.  It's clear, when you perform this activity, that most guys rarely give this any thought - and some may even consider women's lists evidence of an irrational paranoia.  (And they can say this with a straight face even as they take various precautions to avoid "unlikely" threats like heart disease or cancer.) 

Simply because you don't have to account for racism on a daily basis doesn't make it any less real.  It just means that it's less salient in your life.  

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Wade187

Originally Posted by LDJ

Originally Posted by abutta13

not once did i call lebron ghetto. this article to me is a lot like when kids just say ridiculous things to get attention and piss people off. they are trying to trigger a response but when something is so stupid like this article for example it simply deserves to be ignored. yes i agree with u that the fact that lebron is black could possibly increase some of the hate he receives. but to argue that it is one of the main reasons he is so hated is simply ridiculous. i also never said anything about dirk being ghetto or not. i simply said that u do not get as good as lebron or wade without playing atleast some ball in the hood. its more their style of play i was referring to. you can just tell by the way they play. especially wade he does some things on the court that u only learn ballin in the hood.

Thats gotta be the stupidiest %%# ive heard. Key example ive seen and balled around j.williams lenty of times and dude has that so call "hood ball" style yet he is from a backwood hicktown in w.virginia with a pop. less then most highschools. Um what about steve nash dude aint nowhere near being around a hood. Ppl dismissed what meth said then its responses like this that reassure and confirm the very subconcious ignorance and sometimes underlying racist thoughts ppl have.

Do you even play ball? Cause what he is saying is in fact true, and J. Williams and Nash are completely different than what he is referring to. He isn't referring to flare or the flash when it comes to their game which is what Nash and J. Will have. He also is referring to street ball, not ball in the hood. Although basketball in the hood is a little rougher which is what I think he is getting at. But Lebron and Wade, play very aggresive, and can play through contact which is something you get from playing street ball, and getting used to being roughed up a bit. They also use unorthodox angles to force the ball in that also comes from playing a rougher game, because in the streets you aren't getting those calls so you gotta find different ways to score.

Um lol i find this funny seeing 99.9% of yall said those two particular players arent physical, soft and flop all the time and beg for calls. And um nash isnt tough lol. Isnt this the same dude who played with a broken nose, busted lips, busted eye etc. But digress i know this is just another way of being evasive about a subject.  Add to the fact that he used the fact "hood ball". Which further proves meths' point. Underlying connotations. Aggresive brash etc....= black ghetto aka hood. And maybe your racist, maybe you not. But his comment, alongside with your assumption on what he meant proves the very point meth and I og said.
  

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Originally Posted by Method Man

You are changing the argument. You implied that the Mavs don't really play team ball.  I gave you a stat that proves that do and you marginalize it by posting that stats of two players that play totally different positions.

Actually, all I "implied" was that they aren't the "underdogs" everyone made them out to be.  The difference between the two teams, in both demography and style of play, is hardly black and white. 
Miami's players sacrificed for the benefit of the team, too, and if you're going to be upset about teams attempting to "buy a championship," you could just as easily accuse the Mavs of doing so as Miami.  If whining irks you, why stop at LeBron?  Mark Cuban whines about calls more than any other owner in the league.  He also makes a greater effort than any other owner in the league to thrust himself into the spotlight.  So how, all of the sudden, did Dallas become "everything right with basketball?"  

Throwing out the assist stat just proves how arbitrarily defined this distinction truly is.  Miami's "big three" sacrificed shot attempts etc. in attempt to benefit the team.  They attempted to achieve what the Boston Celtics' "big three" accomplished, only they fell two wins short.  The difference between Dallas and Miami has been overblown and, in many cases, fabricated based on an archetypal narrative that bears little resemblance to reality.  

But all you are doing in this case is projecting your own beliefs on a situation in which they do not apply in the real world.

Right back at'cha, slick.   
Racism is very much a part of the "real world."  You've just decided that it has no application here because.. well.. because you say so, I suppose.  If anyone's treating sports as a vacuum, it's you.  The rest of us don't see it as wholly isolated from the racist society in which we live. 

Is it really so hard for you to believe that people saw 'The Decision' special as a reflection not of an uppity black person but as an example of America's out of control cult of celebrity arrogance?

Is it really so hard for you to believe that this answer can be "both/and" rather than an overly simplistic case of "either/or?" 

Here's the difference: your opinion fails to account for varying perspectives.  Anyone who disagrees with you is simply "reaching."  My interpretation relies upon and reconciles varying perspectives.  Yours appears to deny them.  You behave as though you have a corner on the assessment of objective reality.

But to claim that they dislike Lebron because he is black is far, far, harder to believe.  Is Steve Nash popular because he is white?  Hell yes.  That does not make your other assertion true.  Besides, the attention LeBron received from the media was far and away more fawning than what Steve Nash ever received (ESPN ranked his game against the Pistons as the 2nd greatest playoff performance of all time).

That's such an irresponsible distortion.  Did I ever say "everyone hates LeBron James because he's Black"?  Last I checked, he's always been Black.  His Blackness has, however, influenced the way that people have responded to his "disloyalty" and "arrogance."  

People don't like the fact that Donald Trump can promise to announce his "decision" regarding a potential presidential campaign on the season finale of his own self-promoting television series, but compare that to what LeBron James faces.  LeBron may be arrogant, but Trump is in a class of his own in that category.  Who's more likely to get egged on the street now?  

Why was this SO exceedingly harsh?  It's funny that you bring up Shaq, because people still remember his "treachery," yet everyone's apparently forgotten about how Steve Nash dumped Dallas and his "best friend" to sign with Phoenix.  As Mark Cuban wrote at the time, "it was Steve's choice to leave for money."  Nobody seems to care about that one.  Had LeBron never left, people would still be using Shaq as the go-to example of free agent disloyalty.  It was a big deal in 1996.

LeBron became a bigger deal for a number of reasons.  He wasn't an average player, to be sure.  He was the reigning MVP.  He was also at the center of an enormous marketing campaign, which forced him front and center in so many living rooms around the world.  Then, too, you had his television special.  The Cavs were his "hometown" team.  Chris Bosh, another former "franchise player," also joined Miami, compounding the effect that the "inmates" were "running the asylum."  These are all contributing factors.  

I'm simply stating that his race was also a factor - and given the racial divide in how he's currently perceived - it's very difficult to argue otherwise without simply covering your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and engaging in denial, because you WISH the world were otherwise.  

Hey, I wish it were otherwise, too, but each day many of us are confronted with the unpleasant reality and do not have the luxury of ignoring it.  

That's sort of the crux of privilege in American life.

A useful exercise for raising men's awareness regarding sexism is to ask everyone in a room to compose a list of daily precautions they take to avoid sexual assault.  Men's lists are pretty empty.  It's clear, when you perform this activity, that most guys rarely give this any thought - and some may even consider women's lists evidence of an irrational paranoia.  (And they can say this with a straight face even as they take various precautions to avoid "unlikely" threats like heart disease or cancer.) 

Simply because you don't have to account for racism on a daily basis doesn't make it any less real.  It just means that it's less salient in your life.  


I'm sory I just don't agree with the bolded and anyone who knows basketball doesn't.  Blame the coach, blame the player but the Miami Heat lost games in the 4th quarter all season long and in the Finals because they didn't run good sets. The Mavs and the Celtics you reference had better ball movement.

Edit- Who the hell said the Heat tried to buy a championship?

 

[10027]

Originally Posted by Method Man

You are changing the argument. You implied that the Mavs don't really play team ball.  I gave you a stat that proves that do and you marginalize it by posting that stats of two players that play totally different positions.

Actually, all I "implied" was that they aren't the "underdogs" everyone made them out to be.  The difference between the two teams, in both demography and style of play, is hardly black and white. 
Miami's players sacrificed for the benefit of the team, too, and if you're going to be upset about teams attempting to "buy a championship," you could just as easily accuse the Mavs of doing so as Miami.  If whining irks you, why stop at LeBron?  Mark Cuban whines about calls more than any other owner in the league.  He also makes a greater effort than any other owner in the league to thrust himself into the spotlight.  So how, all of the sudden, did Dallas become "everything right with basketball?"  

Throwing out the assist stat just proves how arbitrarily defined this distinction truly is.  Miami's "big three" sacrificed shot attempts etc. in attempt to benefit the team.  They attempted to achieve what the Boston Celtics' "big three" accomplished, only they fell two wins short.  The difference between Dallas and Miami has been overblown and, in many cases, fabricated based on an archetypal narrative that bears little resemblance to reality.  

But all you are doing in this case is projecting your own beliefs on a situation in which they do not apply in the real world.

Right back at'cha, slick.   
Racism is very much a part of the "real world."  You've just decided that it has no application here because.. well.. because you say so, I suppose.  If anyone's treating sports as a vacuum, it's you.  The rest of us don't see it as wholly isolated from the racist society in which we live. 

Is it really so hard for you to believe that people saw 'The Decision' special as a reflection not of an uppity black person but as an example of America's out of control cult of celebrity arrogance?

Is it really so hard for you to believe that this answer can be "both/and" rather than an overly simplistic case of "either/or?" 

Here's the difference: your opinion fails to account for varying perspectives.  Anyone who disagrees with you is simply "reaching."  My interpretation relies upon and reconciles varying perspectives.  Yours appears to deny them.  You behave as though you have a corner on the assessment of objective reality.

But to claim that they dislike Lebron because he is black is far, far, harder to believe.  Is Steve Nash popular because he is white?  Hell yes.  That does not make your other assertion true.  Besides, the attention LeBron received from the media was far and away more fawning than what Steve Nash ever received (ESPN ranked his game against the Pistons as the 2nd greatest playoff performance of all time).

That's such an irresponsible distortion.  Did I ever say "everyone hates LeBron James because he's Black"?  Last I checked, he's always been Black.  His Blackness has, however, influenced the way that people have responded to his "disloyalty" and "arrogance."  

People don't like the fact that Donald Trump can promise to announce his "decision" regarding a potential presidential campaign on the season finale of his own self-promoting television series, but compare that to what LeBron James faces.  LeBron may be arrogant, but Trump is in a class of his own in that category.  Who's more likely to get egged on the street now?  

Why was this SO exceedingly harsh?  It's funny that you bring up Shaq, because people still remember his "treachery," yet everyone's apparently forgotten about how Steve Nash dumped Dallas and his "best friend" to sign with Phoenix.  As Mark Cuban wrote at the time, "it was Steve's choice to leave for money."  Nobody seems to care about that one.  Had LeBron never left, people would still be using Shaq as the go-to example of free agent disloyalty.  It was a big deal in 1996.

LeBron became a bigger deal for a number of reasons.  He wasn't an average player, to be sure.  He was the reigning MVP.  He was also at the center of an enormous marketing campaign, which forced him front and center in so many living rooms around the world.  Then, too, you had his television special.  The Cavs were his "hometown" team.  Chris Bosh, another former "franchise player," also joined Miami, compounding the effect that the "inmates" were "running the asylum."  These are all contributing factors.  

I'm simply stating that his race was also a factor - and given the racial divide in how he's currently perceived - it's very difficult to argue otherwise without simply covering your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and engaging in denial, because you WISH the world were otherwise.  

Hey, I wish it were otherwise, too, but each day many of us are confronted with the unpleasant reality and do not have the luxury of ignoring it.  

That's sort of the crux of privilege in American life.

A useful exercise for raising men's awareness regarding sexism is to ask everyone in a room to compose a list of daily precautions they take to avoid sexual assault.  Men's lists are pretty empty.  It's clear, when you perform this activity, that most guys rarely give this any thought - and some may even consider women's lists evidence of an irrational paranoia.  (And they can say this with a straight face even as they take various precautions to avoid "unlikely" threats like heart disease or cancer.) 

Simply because you don't have to account for racism on a daily basis doesn't make it any less real.  It just means that it's less salient in your life.  

I'm not going to continue this internet debate...  Nobody ever changes their opinion and I don't want to contest you back on forth on every individual point and distortion.
I will just say that you are making alot of presumptions in saying that I have never experienced racism or that its presence is not salient in my life.  But I know you think you are really dropping serious knowledge on the world right now.

 

[Methodical Management]

I'm sory I just don't agree with the bolded and anyone who knows basketball doesn't.  Blame the coach, blame the player but the Miami Heat lost games in the 4th quarter all season long and in the Finals because they didn't run good sets. The Mavs and the Celtics you reference had better ball movement. 

Edit- Who the hell said the Heat tried to buy a championship? 

"Anyone who knows basketball?"  That's a rather arrogant reach, to put it gently. 
If you've been keeping up, and not just seizing on individual points that you, as a Mavs fan, don't like because they fail to give your team maximum credit, many people have indeed accused the Heat of being, in a sense, anti-competitive or taking the "easy way out."  

If it were just about being greater than the sum of your parts or cheering for the underdog, would Memphis have become America's darlings had they faced Dallas in the WCF?  Dallas is "the evil empire" in that scenario.  In practice, it's not that simple.  

The reasoning goes beyond basketball alone.  

Perhaps you cheered for Dallas because you're a Mavs fan, and that's fine, but it doesn't, in and of itself, account for the gulf in public opinion at issue here.  To the point of the original discussion prompt: it doesn't explain why Miami has been made to represent so-called "ghetto basketball" or why significant racial disparities exist between pro- and anti-LeBron camps.   

I will just say that you are making alot of presumptions in saying that I have never experienced racism or that its presence is not salient in my life.  But I know you think you are really dropping serious knowledge on the world right now.

You're big on reductionist, binary thinking, aren't you?  You keep throwing out absolute terms that don't appear in the original argument.  
I never claimed to be dropping something "earth shattering" or even that I've formulated a novel theory on the subject.  I'm simply expressing my opinion on an Internet forum we developed for that exact purpose.  So, you can drop the condescension.  

 

[SneakerProSr.]

Originally Posted by Method Man

I'm sory I just don't agree with the bolded and anyone who knows basketball doesn't.  Blame the coach, blame the player but the Miami Heat lost games in the 4th quarter all season long and in the Finals because they didn't run good sets. The Mavs and the Celtics you reference had better ball movement. 

Edit- Who the hell said the Heat tried to buy a championship? 

"Anyone who knows basketball?"  That's a rather arrogant reach, to put it gently. 
If you've been keeping up, and not just seizing on individual points that you, as a Mavs fan, don't like because they fail to give your team maximum credit, many people have indeed accused the Heat of being, in a sense, anti-competitive or taking the "easy way out."  

If it were just about being greater than the sum of your parts or cheering for the underdog, would Memphis have become America's darlings had they faced Dallas in the WCF?  Dallas is "the evil empire" in that scenario.  In practice, it's not that simple.  

The reasoning goes beyond basketball alone.  

Perhaps you cheered for Dallas because you're a Mavs fan, and that's fine, but it doesn't, in and of itself, account for the gulf in public opinion at issue here.  To the point of the original discussion prompt: it doesn't explain why Miami has been made to represent so-called "ghetto basketball" or why significant racial disparities exist between pro- and anti-LeBron camps.   

I will just say that you are making alot of presumptions in saying that I have never experienced racism or that its presence is not salient in my life.  But I know you think you are really dropping serious knowledge on the world right now.

You're big on reductionist, binary thinking, aren't you?  You keep throwing out absolute terms that don't appear in the original argument.  
I never claimed to be dropping something "earth shattering" or even that I've formulated a novel theory on the subject.  I'm simply expressing my opinion on an Internet forum we developed for that exact purpose.  So, you can drop the condescension.  


See what you are getting at but back in 2007 the team that played Dallas did become America's darlings.

 

[nash]

Originally Posted by 10027

I'm not going to continue this internet debate...  Nobody ever changes their opinion and I don't want to contest you back on forth on every individual point and distortion.
I will just say that you are making alot of presumptions in saying that I have never experienced racism or that its presence is not salient in my life.  But I know you think you are really dropping serious knowledge on the world right now.


not trying to kiss butt or take sides here but holy crap what a cop-out 

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Nash

10027 wrote:

---

I'm not going to continue this internet debate...  Nobody ever changes their opinion and I don't want to contest you back on forth on every individual point and distortion.
I will just say that you are making alot of presumptions in saying that I have never experienced racism or that its presence is not salient in my life.  But I know you think you are really dropping serious knowledge on the world right now.


not trying to kiss butt or take sides here but holy crap what a cop-out 

Exactly which only reinforce the points we were trying to make. People think/do believe things subconsciously ie prejudice/racist thoughts without even consciously knowing. Dude said he isnt about going back and forth debating on the internet because it doesnt change things and its pointless stupid. But um unless he is a moron or something, wouldnt he have known this beforehand. I mean before even posting? And wouldnt h also have known this which each and every rebuttal and response posted? Same way alot of ppl have hidden injustice/prejudice racist thoughts.

I agree to the extent that it may not be a major issue in this case but it does play a big part into why ppl have depict the heat and the championship series "the decision" the way they did. Whether they do it consciously/subconsciously

 

[wade187]

Originally Posted by LDJ

Originally Posted by Wade187

Originally Posted by LDJ



Thats gotta be the stupidiest %%# ive heard. Key example ive seen and balled around j.williams lenty of times and dude has that so call "hood ball" style yet he is from a backwood hicktown in w.virginia with a pop. less then most highschools. Um what about steve nash dude aint nowhere near being around a hood. Ppl dismissed what meth said then its responses like this that reassure and confirm the very subconcious ignorance and sometimes underlying racist thoughts ppl have.

Do you even play ball? Cause what he is saying is in fact true, and J. Williams and Nash are completely different than what he is referring to. He isn't referring to flare or the flash when it comes to their game which is what Nash and J. Will have. He also is referring to street ball, not ball in the hood. Although basketball in the hood is a little rougher which is what I think he is getting at. But Lebron and Wade, play very aggresive, and can play through contact which is something you get from playing street ball, and getting used to being roughed up a bit. They also use unorthodox angles to force the ball in that also comes from playing a rougher game, because in the streets you aren't getting those calls so you gotta find different ways to score.

Um lol i find this funny seeing 99.9% of yall said those two particular players arent physical, soft and flop all the time and beg for calls. And um nash isnt tough lol. Isnt this the same dude who played with a broken nose, busted lips, busted eye etc. But digress i know this is just another way of being evasive about a subject.  Add to the fact that he used the fact "hood ball". Which further proves meths' point. Underlying connotations. Aggresive brash etc....= black ghetto aka hood. And maybe your racist, maybe you not. But his comment, alongside with your assumption on what he meant proves the very point meth and I og said.
  

Yes they do flop and beg for calls, but has anyone that has said they aren't physical had a valid argument? They might not be AS aggressive certain nights but they are certainly aggressive overall. And where in my post does it say Nash isn't tough? Don't worry I'll wait..... even more then Meth your going off what you THINK people are feeling, and what people are getting at. No there is no underlying connotations no one is saying Aggressive =Black ghetto, again no where in my post did I say that. YOU came about that conclusion on your own, and decided that's what we were getting at, and I can't speak for him, but I most definitely wasn't because it's pretty clear that in my post I am simply referring to the game of basketball. Your the one with tunnel vision and looking for light at the end of the tunnel while avoiding all of the obvious. Not only did I explain what I meant by aggressive and I also stated the difference between the players you brought up and them. But since your reading comprehension doesn't quite to be there 100% let me break it down a little more. Nash, J.Will= Point guards. They aren't a D.Rose type of point guard either, they are play makers with a pass first shoot second mentality. Now I'm sure both of them have played street ball which =outdoor basketball which =pick up games. In these games, there is no refs, which = call your own fouls, which = rougher defense more contact, less calls. Now assuming you've played some pick up basketball you will take notice that you are not often fouled when making a pass. Which is what separates these two style of players. You will also take notice that whoevers driving in and is a good finisher is more likely to get hacked, and a lot harder than your average baller. Although you don't seem to be up to speed, I think that's enough for the simplest of men to see where I was getting at and where this goes. 
Now to your next "point" of questioning if I'm racist or not. Simply put, no. I am of Dominican decent and there is no lack of pigment over here 

. I grew up amongst minorities and idk if your white or not, but in the inner city a lot of people refer to their neighborhood as their "hood" for short. So the term "hood ball" isn't as racist as your making it out to be, perhaps a little ignorant, but from my understanding it just means playing in the inner-city. Now idk if he was getting at the reason for them being more aggressive in the inner city is because they are black or ghetto, but regardless of if he was or wasn't i most definitely wasn't. It is a more aggressive game, but from what I've seen regardless of whos on the court, their skin tone, the game stays the same. Now reasoning for this is beyond my understanding but it's just how it is. Hopefully all that was in depth enough for you to see beyond your feelings of discrimination, and see that people have reason other then their inner hatred for people of color to do and say things. Now back to whatever Meths doing

 

[SneakerProSr.]

The Miami Heat's big 3 scored the second biggest percentage of a team's points in NBA history. I don't think any of them are selfish players but its ridiculous to try argue they as much a "team" as the Mavs.