If barry bonds isnt voted to the hall of fame..............

2o6

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what would be the reasoning?

he only had 1 season with 50+ hr's.....just 1.....consistency for 20 years

isnt it common knowldedge that MOST of the league was on PEDS? ....pitchers included.

are they implying that hitting in the 30's before black/latino players where allowed
was harder?

could the babe knock them out against nolan/clemens/randy johnson? not even on PEDS.

they average human gains 1 lb a year , their whole life

1986
Listed Weight: 190


2007
Listed Weight: 239

thats 2.5 lbs a year. if u subtract 20 lbs of muscle (which anyone can gain), and yes he did gain muscle..
all we have is metabolism/nature at work.

did the added weight help him get faster?

Stolen Bases

Career  514 (33rd)

did it help his glove?

Gold Gloves
1990 NL (OF)
1991 NL (OF)
1992 NL (OF)
1993 NL (OF)
1994 NL (OF)
1996 NL (OF)
1997 NL (OF)
1998 NL (OF)




was 2001(73hr) the milestone for post roid barry?

because in 1993 he led the league in home run's

1993 NL  46 (1st)


he would only surpass that total twice(49,73)

are ppl that mad about 2001? he batted .320 and .370  in 01'/02'. he was hot all around

Fielding % as LF
2000 NL  .989 (3rd)
2003 NL  .992 (2nd)

he ran gary sheffield out of the stadium the spring he wanted to workout with him

gary was 5 years younger and a career .290 guy and world series champ.


barry was a beast and he NEEDS to be in the hall.


/rant
 
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He would have made it w/o PEDs and that's the sad part....

However, regular run-of-the-mill guys like Jeff Bagwell and Carlos Delgado will get SERIOUS consideration because they played the game "clean."

Voters will make it EXTREMELY hard for a caught user to get inducted....
 

furrell

Banned
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Blame the old farts who are HoF voters. If it wasn't for players shooting up with 'roids and other PEDs, the fans would have never come back after 94.
 

joe cool23

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Pete Rose and Joe Jackson will probably have to get in first before Bonds, McGuire, etc.
 
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He'll lose votes just because of the way he carried himself. Very fickle group of old men.
 
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I could put up logical statistical evidance that makes my case for Barry being in the Hall, but I have come to 4 conclusions about Barry, his hall chances, and the people voting him in.
Barry widely isnt liked from the marriages to the arrogance to how he treats media.
He could be in the hall based on 86-98, but then that takes you to the people voting him in.
Lance Williams and Mark Fainaru-Wada wrote an excellent book featuring Bonds which I feel covers 90% of the truth of Bonds career.
If your going to accept the book as fact, then you have to accept that it wasnt til 99 Bonds started using.
Then you have these Baseball writers(Tim Kurkjian and Buster Olney in general get a pass from me) who are so stuck up in their game and it being forever tainted that they cannot get past ped's themselves then they pass that on to the fans in their writing. The reality of baseball is that people of color didnt play til 1947, the late 60's and 70' s were filled with greenies, the 80's and 90's had greenies and roids and the 00's have had greenies roids and HGH all still going on. Thats not to mention the gambling issues the srinking ball parks etc Baseball has maybe 26 or 27 years where I would say it was not tainted by one thing or another publicly. Its not fair to anyone to deny anyone based on what someone else said, but has yet to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt and if you do take that route then at least use every thing those people said.
I half way feel that if Bonds goes to Jail he will get in only cause he would have nothing to lose in telling the truth.  



Bagwell is in imo, but he has PED wispers too.
41% imo spoke to that more than people really wanted to admit.
But Bagwell is 25 hits away from a 300 average and being the 15th 300. 400.500 guy in the history of the game.
 Delgado at his retirement age is Willie McCovey. Mcovey has more HR's but that difference is cause he played til 42 vs Delgado being retired
Mccovey is a first Ballot guy with a 80% vote at worse Delgado is a second or third ballor guy.
 

2o6

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Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

He would have made it w/o PEDs and that's the sad part....

However, regular run-of-the-mill guys like Jeff Bagwell and Carlos Delgado will get SERIOUS consideration because they played the game "clean."

Voters will make it EXTREMELY hard for a caught user to get inducted....
they spoke on this on mike and mike , regular players who have been sitting will start getting more votes starting in 2013
 

Humbled

formerly whatslosinlike
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We ALL know Bonds deserves to get in, just like Pete Rose deserves to get in. If he doesn't get voted in, its !%$***$#. Damn near everyone who played in that era used roids or HGH. 
 
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Originally Posted by 2o6

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

He would have made it w/o PEDs and that's the sad part....

However, regular run-of-the-mill guys like Jeff Bagwell and Carlos Delgado will get SERIOUS consideration because they played the game "clean."

Voters will make it EXTREMELY hard for a caught user to get inducted....
they spoke on this on mike and mike , regular players who have been sitting will start getting more votes starting in 2013

They were really talking about Lee Smith though and I have made my case for him over Goose Gossage before.
More borderline guys might get in, but realisticly its a Todd Hilton over a Palmero, possibly a Jim Edmonds Andrew Jones and Dawson over Sosa and Man Ram ( couldnt think of an elite couple of RF's)
 
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Jeff Bagwell isn't a run of the mill guy DJ's, one of the better pure hitters of that era.

Lee Smith and Goose Gossage shouldn't be anywhere near HOF. Andruw Jones should be in the HOF. Probably Helton too. I was never a Palmeiro fan.
 
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Sheff prob isnt getting in.
Pete MIGHT
Palmero doesnt not when Albert, Prob Ryan Howard, Thome, Bagwell, Thomas, Delgado,
All have better OB% and slugging % than he does and all play 1B though im neglecting his 3 GG's
Actually that statement makes me see why Double J's called Delgado average, I dont believe it, but I did just mention 5 guys whom I would put ahead of him and if I wernt bashing Palmero I would put him too.
 Edit: I agree with Proshares.
at worst you have to have Bagwell as the second or third best 1b of the 90's
But If Todd were going to hit 400 hr's and maintain close to his
323/ 423/552 stature I would say no doubt but his HR rate is so garbage now hes Mark Grace in Mark Grace's prime right now.
Thats not to say anything negative about him now, but it was a STEEP power decline from slugging 632 between 99 and 04 to slugging 462 since.
  
 
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Ryan Howard is a name that doesn't belong with any of those dudes. He's been on a fast decline and he's only going to get worse. Raffy won a GG when he played 20 games at 1B all season
they shouldn't count for HOF votes but hey, these old bags who vote now are so stuck in their old ways.
 
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Originally Posted by Proshares

Jeff Bagwell isn't a run of the mill guy DJ's, one of the better pure hitters of that era.
The guy's name was Bagpipes cause his biceps were literally that big, please.  Pure hitter my %*+, pure juice.

And despite you continual hate on Howard his numbers really aren't much different than Texiera, plus he doesn't have the lineup protection that Tex has.
 
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Originally Posted by WhatsLosinLike

We ALL know Bonds deserves to get in, just like Pete Rose deserves to get in. If he doesn't get voted in, its !%$***$#. Damn near everyone who played in that era used roids or HGH. 
x2
 
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Originally Posted by Proshares

Ryan Howard is a name that doesn't belong with any of those dudes. He's been on a fast decline and he's only going to get worse. Raffy won a GG when he played 20 games at 1B all season
they shouldn't count for HOF votes but hey, these old bags who vote now are so stuck in their old ways.
I really agree, but if he gets to 400 hr's ( only 130 away) 13 or 14 hundred rbi in 10-12 years of tick he is in.
He is down but everyone is down. Im not gone sit here and act like Thome, Palmero, Helton, Delgado didnt play in a more live ball era than Howard.
The last 2 have been the second coming of the dead ball.
Look we typically have thought MO Vaugun when it came to Howard, but I am not going to sit here and act like he hasnt made signifigant strides to avoid that fate.
Hes a second half guy and if he gets to what he did last year with no protection I will be impressed and be willing to book him for 2 more years fo 30-35 with 100 to 115 rbi with a 260 average 360 obp and a 500+ slugging

AMP, Like I mentioned above with Bagwell only getting 41% of the vote this year there were wispers that arent really main stream, but the writers know about them.
    
Tex is the perfect example of the idea that this these past 2 years are close to being dead ball lite if both those guys get to 35 with those numbers they should be considered, or at least the bench mark for being in or out.
 
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Originally Posted by Furrell

Blame the old farts who are HoF voters. If it wasn't for players shooting up with 'roids and other PEDs, the fans would have never come back after 94.
exactly,  mlb turned the other cheek during the great summer of 98.  the steroid era brought baseball back whether they want to admit it or not.  next thing you know their cracking down on something they allowed to happen.
 
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Originally Posted by acidicality

Originally Posted by WhatsLosinLike

We ALL know Bonds deserves to get in, just like Pete Rose deserves to get in. If he doesn't get voted in, its !%$***$#. Damn near everyone who played in that era used roids or HGH. 
x2
 
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Originally Posted by Cedric Ceballos 1995 Lakers

Originally Posted by Furrell

Blame the old farts who are HoF voters. If it wasn't for players shooting up with 'roids and other PEDs, the fans would have never come back after 94.
exactly,  mlb turned the other cheek during the great summer of 98.  the steroid era brought baseball back whether they want to admit it or not.  next thing you know their cracking down on something they allowed to happen.
They cracked down cause of Balco and that storm through 2002 and 2003 where peds were getting huge media attention.
Bonds helped the game cause if HE doesnt get caught, Mark doesnt get questioned infront of congress, nor Palmero, nor Roger, Nor Thomas ( who I dont think used) Nor Sosa.
Balco and the rumblings about balco started in 2002, by the end 2003 MLB has the prelim testing, by the end of 2004 they get manditory testing based largely on the fact that they went back and tested for THG. Solely based on Bonds and Giambi. Marvin Benard gets caught its swept under the rug.
Thats the one time MLB got one over on its Union. If Bud doesnt get that tip about Balco in 2002 and use that to negociate that clause with the union there is no testing until at earliest 2005, and no real penalities til 2008 or 2009
Its border line ******ed to think Bonds and Giambi being caught didnt improve the game.
You had the track guys and gals, you had your football players ( and the NFL swept their issues under the rug)
When you have a guy who Bill James describes as being the 6th best baseball player ever before PED's and the guy who just signed for 120 million get caught its a problem.
    
 
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^This

To basically every reply in the thread. The baseball writers need to get younger, because this "holier than thou" approach is some bull.



Bonds/Palm/Sosa/Mcguire/Clemens should get in.
 
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The only way Bonds gets voted in is if the voters have an extreme change of heart. I've noticed a lot of individuals who believe Bonds belongs in the hall all say the same thing, "everyone used p.e.d's during this period". Not only is that a weak argument, it lacks accountability. Barry was a lock for the Hall before he decided to become a lab experiment for BALCO. He willingly cheated and only ended up hurting himself. He shouldn't of let the attention McGwire & Sosa received affect him the way it did, neither of those guys could touch Bonds even if they were using. Like aforementioned his attitude & relationship towards the media & fans wasn't ideal, but it wasn't enough to prevent him from getting in. It's when he decided to cheat is when he sealed his own fate.
 
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Originally Posted by JumpmanFromDaBay

I still don't understand why sports writers have a say who gets in. They never played in the majors.
At least they're not anonymous, like the basketball voters. That way we can call out the idiots who want some free press every year when they don't vote for the no-brainer first-ballot inductees.
 
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