Interesting Article on T-Mac Vol. HOFer or Wasted Talents

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I walked into the 2011 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference thinking I needed to be quick on the draw with a graphing calculator and had to know my way around a scatter plot to keep up with the next-lev chatter whizzing past my ample Irish melon. At Friday's first session, though, I quickly found out that I mostly just needed to be willing to ponder Tracy McGrady'shttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3179/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes) place in basketball's space-time continuum. Done and done!


Well, that, and two other things. I needed to be willing to consider that being AMAZING at something — like, tallest letters on the marquee, top five in the world, stunningly and nigh-on-unfathomably gifted — could be not only bad, but also a massive impediment to becoming the best version of yourself.

Huh and huh?

Best-selling author and noted hairsman Malcolm Gladwell introduced the concept while moderating the opening session of this year's Sloan conference. The talk dealt with how the "10,000 hour rule" that Gladwell discussed in his 2008 book "Outliers" — that the key to success in any field is the purposeful practice of a specific task for 10,000 hours — relates to an athlete's development.

In considering that notion, Gladwell asked the panelists what value should be placed on pure natural talent — the innate genetic gift that we often view as the line of demarcation between the elite and the merely professional — in relationship to, say, work ethic and the capacity to accept instruction.

As often occurs when discussing abstract ideas, talk turned quickly to a physical example — in this case, McGrady, whose combination of size, speed, power and grace beguiled the NBA in the last years of the 20th century and made him one of the league's most dominant offensive forces in the early years of the 21st.

But while McGrady's abilities were awe-inspiring, his willingness to further cultivate them wasn't, according to panelist and ESPN NBA analyst Jeff Van Gundy, who coached the Florida-born star with the Houston Rockets from 2004 through 2007.

Van Gundy estimated McGrady at "probably 1,000 hours of practice," just one-tenth of Gladwell's rule, a figure that elicited laughter from the crowd. Noting that McGrady was as close to he's ever seen as a basketball natural, Van Gundy went on to say that T-Mac "should be a Hall of Fame player."

"His talent was otherworldly," Van Gundy said.



Van Gundy's tone was echoed by his fellow panelist and former employer, Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey, who inherited McGrady when he took the Rockets' reins in 2007.

After praising McGrady's talents, Morey said, "I do think [that ability] got in the way of Tracy's development."

"Much of the game was so easy — you see this in the AAU level, where they have freakishly talented players," he continued. "When it's that easy to dominate at that young age because of your physical tools — his wingspan was freakish, his size was enormous, his IQ — my sense was, all that did get in the way of Tracy reaching his highest heights."

The basic principle makes some sense. If you're bigger, stronger, faster and more talented than the competition you're playing against, you're not forced to develop the finer points of your game, because when push comes to shove, you can just rely on your superior gifts to give you the edge you need. And when those gifts start to fade, if you haven't been developing new skills (or sharpening old ones) for a rainy day, you'll find yourself soaking wet in a storm that might just wash you away from the league.

A fastball pitcher coming back from major arm surgery should be working to make sure he's got secondary pitches and doesn't have to rely on the old No. 1 all day. I get that part.

And the sentiments that McGrady has, to some degree, squandered his gifts and failed to make the most of his talent aren't new — they've been covered in the press for at least the last decade, and they play a key role in the narrative of the chapter on McGrady in the first FreeDarko book. While it was pretty surprising that two of McGrady's former bosses would so willingly throw dirt on him in a public forum, apropos of nearly nothing, it's not alarming information or breaking news.

Listen, Jeff Van Gundy's forgotten more about the game than I'll ever know. If he tells me that McGrady could have ramped up his practice habits to a level that would've increased his body's ability to stay healthy and execute the directives delivered by his sharp-as-a-tack on-court mind, I'm not going to sit here and call him a liar.

Still, I can't help feeling like selecting McGrady as the poster boy for wasted chances is at least partially a function of our own propensity as writers, observers, executives and fans to jam talented players into a hyperbolic chamber, imbue them with whatever dreams may come and then get all pissy when they don't pop out, pure and perfect, exactly the way our imaginations envisioned.

Maybe more diligence would have enabled McGrady to avoid the lower back, left knee and left shoulder injuries that have cost him wide swaths of playing time over the past nine years, first with the Magic, then with the Rockets and, in a playing-out-the-string sequence, the New York Knicks and Detroit Pistons. Maybe adhering to a better class of regimen would have mitigated the fallout of the injuries, or would have gotten a healthier version of T-Mac back on the court sooner. These are reasonable possibilities.

But all that said, it would be ludicrous to act like McGrady hasn't turned in what one can argue is still a Hall of Fame-caliber career, even with the allegedly abysmal habits and all the time he's spent on the shelf, especially considering that this is a Hall of Fame that includes the likes of myriad college and foreign players that never attained nearly the level of individual notoriety that T-Mac has.

McGrady has led the league in scoring twice and finished in the top 10 six times. He's made seven All-NBA teams (two first-team, three second-team, two third-team) and produced a 2002-03 season for theOrlando Magic that Zach Lowe of SI.com's The Point Forward blog calls "perhaps the most under-appreciated great season in NBA history." And according to the Hall of Fame Probability Rankings on Basketball-Reference.com, McGrady has the 13th-best shot for enshrinement of any active ballplayer, right between [color= rgb(204, 204, 204)]Chris Paulhttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3930/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes)[/color] and [color= rgb(204, 204, 204)]Amar'e Stoudemirehttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3607/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes).[/color] (The top 10 are virtual locks for Springfield.[color= rgb(204, 204, 204)]Vince Carter'shttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3248/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes)[/color] 11, and he'll be the subject of some debate when his time comes, I'm sure.)

The most famous knock against McGrady is that he's never made it out of the first round of the playoffs — he reached the second round in 2009 with the Rockets, but wasn't playing — but that critique is somewhat softened when you remember that the teams he was supposed to take to greener pastures often featured sidelined or compromised primary running buddies like [color= rgb(204, 204, 204)]Grant Hillhttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/2626/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes)[/color] and [color= rgb(204, 204, 204)]Yao Minghttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3599/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes)[/color] Tracy McGrady was one of the baddest man on the planet from 2000 through 2006, but because he frequently had to go to war as a one-man gang against opposition that had better arsenals, he lost. Are his practice habits to blame for that, too? Do we offer context for the losses, or merely count them as a black mark on his permanent record, as well?

Part of what makes this difficult to digest is the word "freakish," which both Van Gundy and Morey used to describe McGrady's talents — in fact, that particular adjective was tossed around pretty liberally during the session. I know it's become popular parlance, but its use is sort of uncomfortable — right off the bat, it casts McGrady's athleticism as rare, monstrous and possessed of a stylistic resonance that's oppositional to the establishment. T-Mac's game always seemed too lazy for the squares anyway, even when he was just getting ready to slice to the rim and detonate.

"Freakish" sets McGrady's talent apart, but not necessarily in a positive way; it makes him an undefined "other," a dude capable of feats beyond our ken. In most walks of life, we tend to regard such others skeptically, looking for what makes them somehow wrong and us somehow right. We look past the 18,000-plus points McGrady has scored and see only the 10,000 more we feel pretty confidenthe should have pocketed if only he wasn't screwing around, because what can't superheroes do, right?

Later in the session, when discussing the acquisition of new players via the draft or free agency, Gladwell asked whether sports teams tend to overvalue potential while undervaluing what skills players actually have. In McGrady's case, it feels like Van Gundy, Morey and their likeminded folk are overvaluing what they perceived his absolute ultimate ceiling to be, agreeing that he didn't reach it, and waxing wistful about what could have been, all the whole undervaluing how lethal a force McGrady was when he was right and had it all cooking.

Don't normally like Yahoo articles but this actually was decent. T-Mac was my favorite player during his entire run with the Magic and it was sad to see how injuries (and/or poor practice habits) robbed him of his abilities. I'm willing to bet that most NTers don't think he is a HOFer and I wouldn't disagree but he put up some numbers. 18k for his career, 2 scoring titles and a career playoff average of 28.5 ppg, 6.9 apg, & 6.2 rpg. His best season was the 02-03 season where he averaged 32.1 ppg, 5.5 apg, 6.5 rpg, 2 stls, & 1 blk. All this on 46% fg & 39% 3pt with 10 fta, all career bests. T-Mac was a beast 
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http://sports.yahoo.com/n...perts&ysp_frm_woah=1

I walked into the 2011 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference thinking I needed to be quick on the draw with a graphing calculator and had to know my way around a scatter plot to keep up with the next-lev chatter whizzing past my ample Irish melon. At Friday's first session, though, I quickly found out that I mostly just needed to be willing to ponder Tracy McGrady'shttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3179/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes) place in basketball's space-time continuum. Done and done!


Well, that, and two other things. I needed to be willing to consider that being AMAZING at something — like, tallest letters on the marquee, top five in the world, stunningly and nigh-on-unfathomably gifted — could be not only bad, but also a massive impediment to becoming the best version of yourself.

Huh and huh?

Best-selling author and noted hairsman Malcolm Gladwell introduced the concept while moderating the opening session of this year's Sloan conference. The talk dealt with how the "10,000 hour rule" that Gladwell discussed in his 2008 book "Outliers" — that the key to success in any field is the purposeful practice of a specific task for 10,000 hours — relates to an athlete's development.

In considering that notion, Gladwell asked the panelists what value should be placed on pure natural talent — the innate genetic gift that we often view as the line of demarcation between the elite and the merely professional — in relationship to, say, work ethic and the capacity to accept instruction.

As often occurs when discussing abstract ideas, talk turned quickly to a physical example — in this case, McGrady, whose combination of size, speed, power and grace beguiled the NBA in the last years of the 20th century and made him one of the league's most dominant offensive forces in the early years of the 21st.

But while McGrady's abilities were awe-inspiring, his willingness to further cultivate them wasn't, according to panelist and ESPN NBA analyst Jeff Van Gundy, who coached the Florida-born star with the Houston Rockets from 2004 through 2007.

Van Gundy estimated McGrady at "probably 1,000 hours of practice," just one-tenth of Gladwell's rule, a figure that elicited laughter from the crowd. Noting that McGrady was as close to he's ever seen as a basketball natural, Van Gundy went on to say that T-Mac "should be a Hall of Fame player."

"His talent was otherworldly," Van Gundy said.



Van Gundy's tone was echoed by his fellow panelist and former employer, Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey, who inherited McGrady when he took the Rockets' reins in 2007.

After praising McGrady's talents, Morey said, "I do think [that ability] got in the way of Tracy's development."

"Much of the game was so easy — you see this in the AAU level, where they have freakishly talented players," he continued. "When it's that easy to dominate at that young age because of your physical tools — his wingspan was freakish, his size was enormous, his IQ — my sense was, all that did get in the way of Tracy reaching his highest heights."

The basic principle makes some sense. If you're bigger, stronger, faster and more talented than the competition you're playing against, you're not forced to develop the finer points of your game, because when push comes to shove, you can just rely on your superior gifts to give you the edge you need. And when those gifts start to fade, if you haven't been developing new skills (or sharpening old ones) for a rainy day, you'll find yourself soaking wet in a storm that might just wash you away from the league.

A fastball pitcher coming back from major arm surgery should be working to make sure he's got secondary pitches and doesn't have to rely on the old No. 1 all day. I get that part.

And the sentiments that McGrady has, to some degree, squandered his gifts and failed to make the most of his talent aren't new — they've been covered in the press for at least the last decade, and they play a key role in the narrative of the chapter on McGrady in the first FreeDarko book. While it was pretty surprising that two of McGrady's former bosses would so willingly throw dirt on him in a public forum, apropos of nearly nothing, it's not alarming information or breaking news.

Listen, Jeff Van Gundy's forgotten more about the game than I'll ever know. If he tells me that McGrady could have ramped up his practice habits to a level that would've increased his body's ability to stay healthy and execute the directives delivered by his sharp-as-a-tack on-court mind, I'm not going to sit here and call him a liar.

Still, I can't help feeling like selecting McGrady as the poster boy for wasted chances is at least partially a function of our own propensity as writers, observers, executives and fans to jam talented players into a hyperbolic chamber, imbue them with whatever dreams may come and then get all pissy when they don't pop out, pure and perfect, exactly the way our imaginations envisioned.

Maybe more diligence would have enabled McGrady to avoid the lower back, left knee and left shoulder injuries that have cost him wide swaths of playing time over the past nine years, first with the Magic, then with the Rockets and, in a playing-out-the-string sequence, the New York Knicks and Detroit Pistons. Maybe adhering to a better class of regimen would have mitigated the fallout of the injuries, or would have gotten a healthier version of T-Mac back on the court sooner. These are reasonable possibilities.

But all that said, it would be ludicrous to act like McGrady hasn't turned in what one can argue is still a Hall of Fame-caliber career, even with the allegedly abysmal habits and all the time he's spent on the shelf, especially considering that this is a Hall of Fame that includes the likes of myriad college and foreign players that never attained nearly the level of individual notoriety that T-Mac has.

McGrady has led the league in scoring twice and finished in the top 10 six times. He's made seven All-NBA teams (two first-team, three second-team, two third-team) and produced a 2002-03 season for theOrlando Magic that Zach Lowe of SI.com's The Point Forward blog calls "perhaps the most under-appreciated great season in NBA history." And according to the Hall of Fame Probability Rankings on Basketball-Reference.com, McGrady has the 13th-best shot for enshrinement of any active ballplayer, right between [color= rgb(204, 204, 204)]Chris Paulhttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3930/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes)[/color] and [color= rgb(204, 204, 204)]Amar'e Stoudemirehttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3607/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes).[/color] (The top 10 are virtual locks for Springfield.[color= rgb(204, 204, 204)]Vince Carter'shttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3248/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes)[/color] 11, and he'll be the subject of some debate when his time comes, I'm sure.)

The most famous knock against McGrady is that he's never made it out of the first round of the playoffs — he reached the second round in 2009 with the Rockets, but wasn't playing — but that critique is somewhat softened when you remember that the teams he was supposed to take to greener pastures often featured sidelined or compromised primary running buddies like [color= rgb(204, 204, 204)]Grant Hillhttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/2626/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes)[/color] and [color= rgb(204, 204, 204)]Yao Minghttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3599/news/l.yimg.com/a/i/us/sp/fn/default/full/p_note_none.gif);">http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/...t/full/p_note_none.gif); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; visibility: visible; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 0px; height: 13px; background-position: 0% 0.2em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">(notes)[/color] Tracy McGrady was one of the baddest man on the planet from 2000 through 2006, but because he frequently had to go to war as a one-man gang against opposition that had better arsenals, he lost. Are his practice habits to blame for that, too? Do we offer context for the losses, or merely count them as a black mark on his permanent record, as well?

Part of what makes this difficult to digest is the word "freakish," which both Van Gundy and Morey used to describe McGrady's talents — in fact, that particular adjective was tossed around pretty liberally during the session. I know it's become popular parlance, but its use is sort of uncomfortable — right off the bat, it casts McGrady's athleticism as rare, monstrous and possessed of a stylistic resonance that's oppositional to the establishment. T-Mac's game always seemed too lazy for the squares anyway, even when he was just getting ready to slice to the rim and detonate.

"Freakish" sets McGrady's talent apart, but not necessarily in a positive way; it makes him an undefined "other," a dude capable of feats beyond our ken. In most walks of life, we tend to regard such others skeptically, looking for what makes them somehow wrong and us somehow right. We look past the 18,000-plus points McGrady has scored and see only the 10,000 more we feel pretty confidenthe should have pocketed if only he wasn't screwing around, because what can't superheroes do, right?

Later in the session, when discussing the acquisition of new players via the draft or free agency, Gladwell asked whether sports teams tend to overvalue potential while undervaluing what skills players actually have. In McGrady's case, it feels like Van Gundy, Morey and their likeminded folk are overvaluing what they perceived his absolute ultimate ceiling to be, agreeing that he didn't reach it, and waxing wistful about what could have been, all the whole undervaluing how lethal a force McGrady was when he was right and had it all cooking.

Don't normally like Yahoo articles but this actually was decent. T-Mac was my favorite player during his entire run with the Magic and it was sad to see how injuries (and/or poor practice habits) robbed him of his abilities. I'm willing to bet that most NTers don't think he is a HOFer and I wouldn't disagree but he put up some numbers. 18k for his career, 2 scoring titles and a career playoff average of 28.5 ppg, 6.9 apg, & 6.2 rpg. His best season was the 02-03 season where he averaged 32.1 ppg, 5.5 apg, 6.5 rpg, 2 stls, & 1 blk. All this on 46% fg & 39% 3pt with 10 fta, all career bests. T-Mac was a beast 
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He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.
 
He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.
 
Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

uhm.... no.. dont agree with you there.. vince got rookie of the year, dunk champ, olympian, avg. 14.1 ppg against tmacs 8.4 also has a higher career avg.

tmac time to become a HOFer? hell no... as good as he was... but tmacs career kinda went down ever since joining the rockets... and then the injuries he had... no wa he'll produce.. his best years were in orlando... and it was a big mistake to leave...
  
 
Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

uhm.... no.. dont agree with you there.. vince got rookie of the year, dunk champ, olympian, avg. 14.1 ppg against tmacs 8.4 also has a higher career avg.

tmac time to become a HOFer? hell no... as good as he was... but tmacs career kinda went down ever since joining the rockets... and then the injuries he had... no wa he'll produce.. his best years were in orlando... and it was a big mistake to leave...
  
 
Somewhere during this article I thought about LeBron and wondered if this can apply to him as well. (Not trying to thread jack)
 
Somewhere during this article I thought about LeBron and wondered if this can apply to him as well. (Not trying to thread jack)
 
Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

uhm.... no.. dont agree with you there.. vince got rookie of the year, dunk champ, olympian, avg. 14.1 ppg against tmacs 8.4 also has a higher career avg.

tmac time to become a HOFer? hell no... as good as he was... but tmacs career kinda went down ever since joining the rockets... and then the injuries he had... no wa he'll produce.. his best years were in orlando... and it was a big mistake to leave...
  

TMac got traded
 
Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

uhm.... no.. dont agree with you there.. vince got rookie of the year, dunk champ, olympian, avg. 14.1 ppg against tmacs 8.4 also has a higher career avg.

tmac time to become a HOFer? hell no... as good as he was... but tmacs career kinda went down ever since joining the rockets... and then the injuries he had... no wa he'll produce.. his best years were in orlando... and it was a big mistake to leave...
  

TMac got traded
 
Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Xtapolapacetl wrote:

He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

uhm.... no.. dont agree with you there.. vince got rookie of the year, dunk champ, olympian, avg. 14.1 ppg against tmacs 8.4 also has a higher career avg.

tmac time to become a HOFer? hell no... as good as he was... but tmacs career kinda went down ever since joining the rockets... and then the injuries he had... no wa he'll produce.. his best years were in orlando... and it was a big mistake to leave...
  


Vince Carter has two all-NBA 3rd teams. That's it.

McGrady has two all-NBA 1st teams, three all-NBA 2nd teams and two all-NBA 3rd teams.

McGrady was arguably the best player in the league at one point, or at least top 3. Vince Carter was never a top 7 player in the NBA. But hey, that's nothing that a slam dunk title won't fix. Watch out Hall of Fame, here comes Fred Jones.
 
Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Xtapolapacetl wrote:

He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

uhm.... no.. dont agree with you there.. vince got rookie of the year, dunk champ, olympian, avg. 14.1 ppg against tmacs 8.4 also has a higher career avg.

tmac time to become a HOFer? hell no... as good as he was... but tmacs career kinda went down ever since joining the rockets... and then the injuries he had... no wa he'll produce.. his best years were in orlando... and it was a big mistake to leave...
  


Vince Carter has two all-NBA 3rd teams. That's it.

McGrady has two all-NBA 1st teams, three all-NBA 2nd teams and two all-NBA 3rd teams.

McGrady was arguably the best player in the league at one point, or at least top 3. Vince Carter was never a top 7 player in the NBA. But hey, that's nothing that a slam dunk title won't fix. Watch out Hall of Fame, here comes Fred Jones.
 
Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Xtapolapacetl wrote:

He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

uhm.... no.. dont agree with you there.. vince got rookie of the year, dunk champ, olympian, avg. 14.1 ppg against tmacs 8.4 also has a higher career avg.

tmac time to become a HOFer? hell no... as good as he was... but tmacs career kinda went down ever since joining the rockets... and then the injuries he had... no wa he'll produce.. his best years were in orlando... and it was a big mistake to leave...
  


Vince Carter has two all-NBA 3rd teams. That's it.

McGrady has two all-NBA 1st teams, three all-NBA 2nd teams and two all-NBA 3rd teams.

McGrady was arguably the best player in the league at one point, or at least top 3. Vince Carter was never a top 7 player in the NBA. But hey, that's nothing that a slam dunk title won't fix. Watch out Hall of Fame, here comes Fred Jones.
like i said it's not just the dunk title, being an olympian, rookie of the year, etc. reason vince carter was never all nba 1st team, cause he wasnt better than kobe... where tmac took one spot, kobe took the other in the backcourt...

anyways, no way tmac getting in the hall of fame.. if reggie is not even a 1st time ballot.. tmac never got out the 1st round..

  
 
Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Xtapolapacetl wrote:

He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

uhm.... no.. dont agree with you there.. vince got rookie of the year, dunk champ, olympian, avg. 14.1 ppg against tmacs 8.4 also has a higher career avg.

tmac time to become a HOFer? hell no... as good as he was... but tmacs career kinda went down ever since joining the rockets... and then the injuries he had... no wa he'll produce.. his best years were in orlando... and it was a big mistake to leave...
  


Vince Carter has two all-NBA 3rd teams. That's it.

McGrady has two all-NBA 1st teams, three all-NBA 2nd teams and two all-NBA 3rd teams.

McGrady was arguably the best player in the league at one point, or at least top 3. Vince Carter was never a top 7 player in the NBA. But hey, that's nothing that a slam dunk title won't fix. Watch out Hall of Fame, here comes Fred Jones.
like i said it's not just the dunk title, being an olympian, rookie of the year, etc. reason vince carter was never all nba 1st team, cause he wasnt better than kobe... where tmac took one spot, kobe took the other in the backcourt...

anyways, no way tmac getting in the hall of fame.. if reggie is not even a 1st time ballot.. tmac never got out the 1st round..

  
 
Hes only 31?
eek.gif
Mind blown.

No, seriously. I thought he was like 36. I guess I forgot he came out of HS.
 
Hes only 31?
eek.gif
Mind blown.

No, seriously. I thought he was like 36. I guess I forgot he came out of HS.
 
Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Xtapolapacetl wrote:


TheGoldenChild wrote:


Xtapolapacetl wrote:



He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

uhm.... no.. dont agree with you there.. vince got rookie of the year, dunk champ, olympian, avg. 14.1 ppg against tmacs 8.4 also has a higher career avg.

tmac time to become a HOFer? hell no... as good as he was... but tmacs career kinda went down ever since joining the rockets... and then the injuries he had... no wa he'll produce.. his best years were in orlando... and it was a big mistake to leave...
  


Vince Carter has two all-NBA 3rd teams. That's it.

McGrady has two all-NBA 1st teams, three all-NBA 2nd teams and two all-NBA 3rd teams.

McGrady was arguably the best player in the league at one point, or at least top 3. Vince Carter was never a top 7 player in the NBA. But hey, that's nothing that a slam dunk title won't fix. Watch out Hall of Fame, here comes Fred Jones.
like i said it's not just the dunk title, being an olympian, rookie of the year, etc. reason vince carter was never all nba 1st team, cause he wasnt better than kobe... where tmac took one spot, kobe took the other in the backcourt...

anyways, no way tmac getting in the hall of fame.. if reggie is not even a 1st time ballot.. tmac never got out the 1st round..

  


And he wasn't all-NBA 1st because he wasn't better than McGrady. And he wasn't all-NBA 2nd team either.

I already wrote that he wasn't HOF, but he is closer than some players who weren't as good as him at his peak..
 
Originally Posted by TheGoldenChild

Xtapolapacetl wrote:


TheGoldenChild wrote:


Xtapolapacetl wrote:



He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

uhm.... no.. dont agree with you there.. vince got rookie of the year, dunk champ, olympian, avg. 14.1 ppg against tmacs 8.4 also has a higher career avg.

tmac time to become a HOFer? hell no... as good as he was... but tmacs career kinda went down ever since joining the rockets... and then the injuries he had... no wa he'll produce.. his best years were in orlando... and it was a big mistake to leave...
  


Vince Carter has two all-NBA 3rd teams. That's it.

McGrady has two all-NBA 1st teams, three all-NBA 2nd teams and two all-NBA 3rd teams.

McGrady was arguably the best player in the league at one point, or at least top 3. Vince Carter was never a top 7 player in the NBA. But hey, that's nothing that a slam dunk title won't fix. Watch out Hall of Fame, here comes Fred Jones.
like i said it's not just the dunk title, being an olympian, rookie of the year, etc. reason vince carter was never all nba 1st team, cause he wasnt better than kobe... where tmac took one spot, kobe took the other in the backcourt...

anyways, no way tmac getting in the hall of fame.. if reggie is not even a 1st time ballot.. tmac never got out the 1st round..

  


And he wasn't all-NBA 1st because he wasn't better than McGrady. And he wasn't all-NBA 2nd team either.

I already wrote that he wasn't HOF, but he is closer than some players who weren't as good as him at his peak..
 
Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

What!? Dude's knees are shot.
 
Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

He's not a HOFer.
He's closer to being a HOFer than Vince Carter.
He still has time to become a HOFer. I swear, sometimes people talk about this dude as if he's 40 years old. He's 31.

What!? Dude's knees are shot.
 
look at the guards and forwards he's gonna be against when its time to vote

Kobe
J.kidd
Steve Nash
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Nowitzki
Ray Allen
Paul Pierce

by the times he's on his 3rd/4th/5th ballot he gonna be up against

Rose
Rondo
Durant
Chris Paul
Dwight
 
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