Manny Ramirez, where Andre Ethier happened.

[nnarum]

 

[dman14]

Originally Posted by ooIRON MANoo

Irrelevant according to the theory of "protection."

Also can somebody explain to me why Andre Ethier, is seeing less fastballs then he was last year?? and less then his career average...

Pitch Type

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[table][tr][th="col"]Season[/th] [th="col"]Team[/th] [th="col"]FB[/th] [/tr][tr][td]
Total *
[/td] [td]
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[/td] [td]
60.5% (90.2)
[/td] [/tr][tr][td]2008[/td] [td]Dodgers[/td] [td]62.8% (90.6)[/td] [/tr][tr][td]2009[/td] [td]Dodgers[/td] [td]56.5% (90.5)[/td] [/tr][/table]

Protection? What protection?

Last season, Ethier hit in front of Manny during the month of September, and his numbers spiked.

He has been hitting in front of Manny, to the frustration of some Dodger fans, this season.

How was Manny "protecting" Ethier, when Ethier has been hitting behind Manny all year?

I wasn't a Jeff Kent fan, but he hit behind Bonds, not in front of Bonds? How is that protection?


in my opinion, with bonds constantly on base (and the hitters he protected on base) he had more opportunities to drive in runs
with bonds on first, you dont want to walk kent, and have runners on first and second, so he got pitches to hit (i think in 2000 ellis burks did a great job indriving in runs, too). grant it, kent still had to drive them in, but the opportunities were there
guys like bonds and manny, if you hit in front of them you should have a high on base pct.

 

[ooiron manoo]

in my opinion, with bonds constantly on base (and the hitters he protected on base) he had more opportunities to drive in runs
with bonds on first, you dont want to walk kent, and have runners on first and second, so he got pitches to hit (i think in 2000 ellis burks did a great job in driving in runs, too). grant it, kent still had to drive them in, but the opportunities were there
guys like bonds and manny, if you hit in front of them you should have a high on base pct.
You contradict yourself with that statement.

I think the theory of protection is overblown. However, you do get a better selection of pitches if you bat before agreat hitter. I don't believe it holds true if you bat after a hitter such as Manny or Bonds. In fact, pitchers will have more reason to get you out inorder to not put more men on base.

There is more of an opportunity to drive in runs, but you still have to hit the ball. Even without Manny the opportunities have been there since Pierre,Furcal and Hudson are doing a good job of getting on base. Furcal seems to be breaking out of his early season funk. Ethier is currently in a slump, but heis still a .300 hitter that loves to hit to the gaps in the outfield, with occasional power.

 

[frenchblue23]

Wait, what?>

Ethier has only been hitting behind Manny this season, before the suspension.

Can't only be a coincidence that his slump started when Manny left??

 

[dman14]

Originally Posted by ooIRON MANoo

in my opinion, with bonds constantly on base (and the hitters he protected on base) he had more opportunities to drive in runs
with bonds on first, you dont want to walk kent, and have runners on first and second, so he got pitches to hit (i think in 2000 ellis burks did a great job in driving in runs, too). grant it, kent still had to drive them in, but the opportunities were there
guys like bonds and manny, if you hit in front of them you should have a high on base pct.

You contradict yourself with that statement.

I think the theory of protection is overblown. However, you do get a better selection of pitches if you bat before a great hitter. I don't believe it holds true if you bat after a hitter such as Manny or Bonds. In fact, pitchers will have more reason to get you out in order to not put more men on base.

There is more of an opportunity to drive in runs, but you still have to hit the ball. Even without Manny the opportunities have been there since Pierre, Furcal and Hudson are doing a good job of getting on base. Furcal seems to be breaking out of his early season funk. Ethier is currently in a slump, but he is still a .300 hitter that loves to hit to the gaps in the outfield, with occasional power.

i dont see the contradiction

. i just think you getpitches to hit when there are runners on base, especially if you are batting 3-4-5 or have a dangerous lineup. obviously the protection isnt the same, but youare somewhat protected because the man in front of you is on base the majority of the time and pitchers hate putting runners on base, especially RISP. but toget them out, you got to throw strikes and attack the hitter. if you have a garbage lineup, the protection probably isnt there.

maybe protection is the wrong word, but dudes definitely benifits

 

[nnarum]

You don't even have to be a statistician... Look at wins with Manny, and loses without Manny.

 

[bastitch]

Originally Posted by ooIRON MANoo



I think the theory of protection is overblown. However, you do get a better selection of pitches if you bat before a great hitter. I don't believe it holds true if you bat after a hitter such as Manny or Bonds. In fact, pitchers will have more reason to get you out in order to not put more men on base.

Batting after a great hitter still equates to better situations to hit and increased frequency in these situations.

You will have more at-bats with pitchers in the stretch, more at bats with people on base, and more at bats during stress innings.

 

[in yo nostril]

manny helped him somewhat but hes doing this to himself right now. its not all because of manny. he just needs to calm down a little bit.

 

[tylerdub]

I think great batters tend to inflate the stats of everyone who bats around them. No pitcher wants to face Manny with guys on bases so he might try and throwmore strikes (control pitches like a fastball) to the batter before him. A guy who bats behind Manny is more likely to have runners on base thus improving hischances to get an RBI. One of the cardinal sins of pitching is putting extra men on base with walks. When a guy like Manny gets on base consistently, pitchersdont want to walk more men on base. Having one guy on base is bad enough, 2 and 3 are even worse / higher pressure. The pressure gets ratcheted up, combinedwith the unwillingness to walk = better oppurtunity for the batter behind Manny.

Cliff Notes: Batters in front of and behind great batters come to bat in a situation that puts pressure on pitchers to not walk them.

I could be wrong on all of that, but I typed it so I sure hope not.

 

[cincoseisdos]

Originally Posted by nnarum

silly fans

we still took the series

 

[alleniversonfan01]

This +*%#% Osh Kosh stay spittin out stats without a source. Just like in the other thread about silly stuff in baseball. You claim to have all these stats.Show me where you are getting that he is seeing less sliders and more fastballs. If you can show me a source I will take your arguments more seriously untilthen I will stick with what Baseball analysts say, and what I see with my own eyes since I watch almost every Red Sox game all season. Ortiz is seein way moreoffspeed/less strikes to make him chase.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by AllenIversonFan01

This +*%#% Osh Kosh stay spittin out stats without a source. Just like in the other thread about silly stuff in baseball. You claim to have all these stats. Show me where you are getting that he is seeing less sliders and more fastballs. If you can show me a source I will take your arguments more seriously until then I will stick with what Baseball analysts say, and what I see with my own eyes since I watch almost every Red Sox game all season. Ortiz is seein way more offspeed/less strikes to make him chase.

Fangraphs.com

 

[dunkaroos]

 

[mr jordan04]

He is nowhere near as scary as Manny when he comes to the plate. The whole protection arguement is mute, if you are a good enough hitter the people before you in the line-up are going to get thrown more strikes because no1 wants to put runners on when good hitters come to the plate.

 

[ghengesk]

moot not mute

 

[kiddin like jason]

Batting after a great hitter still equates to better situations to hit and increased frequency in these situations.

You will have more at-bats with pitchers in the stretch, more at bats with people on base, and more at bats during stress innings.
Exactly.

Update:

Before Manny's suspension: 33-104, 6 home runs, 27 runs batted in, 20 walks, 16 strikeouts
After: 9-60, 0 home runs, 3 runs batted in, 7 walks, 17 strikeouts

 

[DownByLaw]

Originally Posted by nnarum

 

[mez 0ne]

Dude is not a true clean up hitter to begin with, he needs to get that "slugging" mentality out of his head because he looks like a hot mess. 3 RBIin 60 AB's is putrid.

They already put Blake in his spot in the lineup.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by Kiddin Like Jason

Batting after a great hitter still equates to better situations to hit and increased frequency in these situations.

You will have more at-bats with pitchers in the stretch, more at bats with people on base, and more at bats during stress innings.

Exactly.

Update:

Before Manny's suspension: 33-104, 6 home runs, 27 runs batted in, 20 walks, 16 strikeouts
After: 9-60, 0 home runs, 3 runs batted in, 7 walks, 17 strikeouts
So logically I can assume that every single player should perform better with runners on?

 

[vctry20]

OKB where is the sample where that study was done from?

IMO protection exists, it's just not seen on every team because there isn't a player on every team that pitchers don't want to see

It's easy to say you have a sample, but if it's from like the Washington Nationals, then it doesn't work because they don't have a Manny in thelineup. You can't use a small sample for something like this because there are only a few hitters that pitchers treat like Manny

 

[bastitch]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by Kiddin Like Jason

Batting after a great hitter still equates to better situations to hit and increased frequency in these situations.

You will have more at-bats with pitchers in the stretch, more at bats with people on base, and more at bats during stress innings.

Exactly.

Update:

Before Manny's suspension: 33-104, 6 home runs, 27 runs batted in, 20 walks, 16 strikeouts
After: 9-60, 0 home runs, 3 runs batted in, 7 walks, 17 strikeouts

So logically I can assume that every single player should perform better with runners on?




No. Not everybody.

But exceptional hitters that typically hit in the middle of the lineup should. The sheer fact that they bat in RBI spots in the middle of the lineup makesthis inherently true.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by vctry20

OKB where is the sample where that study was done from?

IMO protection exists, it's just not seen on every team because there isn't a player on every team that pitchers don't want to see

It's easy to say you have a sample, but if it's from like the Washington Nationals, then it doesn't work because they don't have a Manny in the lineup. You can't use a small sample for something like this because there are only a few hitters that pitchers treat like Manny

You mean the Etheir thing? It's from the dodgers obviously.

Originally Posted by Bastitch

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by Kiddin Like Jason

Batting after a great hitter still equates to better situations to hit and increased frequency in these situations.

You will have more at-bats with pitchers in the stretch, more at bats with people on base, and more at bats during stress innings.

Exactly.

Update:

Before Manny's suspension: 33-104, 6 home runs, 27 runs batted in, 20 walks, 16 strikeouts
After: 9-60, 0 home runs, 3 runs batted in, 7 walks, 17 strikeouts

So logically I can assume that every single player should perform better with runners on?

No. Not everybody.

But exceptional hitters that typically hit in the middle of the lineup should. The sheer fact that they bat in RBI spots in the middle of the lineup makes this inherently true.

I don't think I understand what you are saying why does this make protection inherently true.
My whole thing is if the protection thing is true it should be a consistent repeatable for every player, the fact that performance with runners on varies yearto year no matter who the player is tells me that it's coincidence.

Infact looking closer at Andre Ethier numbers it looks like he is just go some bad luck. His batting average on balls in play much lower than his careernumbers (.280) his but his walk rate has increased, his strike out rate is the same, and he swinging less at pitches out side of the strike zone than lastyear.

His line drive rate is 16% much lower than his career norm (and the norm for most hitters) at 20%.

He is bound to come out of this.

 

[vctry20]

Originally Posted by vctry20

OKB where is the sample where that study was done from?

IMO protection exists, it's just not seen on every team because there isn't a player on every team that pitchers don't want to see

It's easy to say you have a sample, but if it's from like the Washington Nationals, then it doesn't work because they don't have a Manny in the lineup. You can't use a small sample for something like this because there are only a few hitters that pitchers treat like Manny

You mean the Etheir thing? It's from the dodgers obviously.
Nah but you made a thread or something a few weeks back dispelling baseball myths, one of them was the protection

 

[lb510]

He's just not getting it done... but before you know it Manny will be back so who knows