NBA fans: What's the difference between a "hard foul" and a "dirty play"?

[grittyman20]

Just thinking about the physicality of this years playoffs and how some people are so quick to call for flagrant fouls, ejections and suspensions...

Forget what the NBA has defined (or failed to define in most cases) as a foul, I found this article and pretty much agree with the author.

Anytime on the basketball court - and I mean anytime - if you take your elbow and you intentionally throw it at a guy's face, his head, his jaw, or his neck, it is a cheap, punk, bush league, dirty, gutless play. It is no different than sucker punching a man in his face.

You steal a guy in his face with your elbow or you sneak somebody with a shot to the jaw? You are a punk and a dirty player. Maybe not all the time, but at that particular moment, you are.

Why? Because he doesn't expect it, and he is defenseless. You will shatter teeth, break jaws, and give concussions. You deliver that on the basketball court, and you are a punk. Period.

Dwight Howard's elbow to Dalembert's head? Dirty. Kobe's elbow at Ron Artest? Dirty. Doesn't matter if it wasn't called or not. A blow toward his face, toward his head, whether it lands or not, is a punk play.

Derek Fisher's? Whole different situation. Yes, he threw it high, but it was more a hard body shot. He saw the bigger Scola coming, loaded up and fired. Intentional? Absolutely. Ejection and suspension? More than fair. Dirty cheap shot? Not quite the same. He was sending a message for sure, but got a little over aggressive.

How about Rafer Alston's slap on Eddie House's head? Another completely separate issue. Eddie House talks too much trash - too loud, too profane, too much body language. The NBA let's way too much of this go on. There is a line that players understand exists between competitiveness and disrespect. City or suburbs, white or black, there is an acceptable level of talk that is allowed - at the park, in the gym, in any basketball environment. When someone goes beyond that, someone will take issue.

That's what Skip did. He smacked House in his head to get his attention - letting him know he had gone too far. Alston was ready to square off if that's what it took. Was that a smart play in an NBA playoff game? Absolutely not. Was a suspension warranted? Certainly. No place for that in the NBA.

But at the park? That's at least a ball thrown in your face, if not a fight. You're running your mouth too much and you deserved it - what are you gonna do? Settle it and check ball.

Rondo's hit to the head on Brad Miller? Another separate issue. It was a desperate play to try to win the game. It should have been a flagrant foul and Chicago should have gotten the ball back after the free throws. You could make an argument for a suspension; yes, it was to the head. But, in this case, I don't agree. Short of undercutting a player while he is in the air, I would try to hit Miller wherever I could to keep him from scoring. And, I could accept that as the player taking the hit - I get it. If he rears back and throws a punch? Again, that's a different story.

I know this: someone on my team better knock Rondo on his back on his next drive to the basket. Rondo should expect it. And accept it. That's what players do.

Rondo's play on Kirk Hinrich was a different situation all together. Hinrich was making a basketball play, Rondo didn't like getting boxed out, so he grabbed Hinrich and threw him into the scorer's table. Hinrich got him frustrated and got in his head. That's the ultimate as a player - when you can make a guy lose it like that and make him do something stupid. You own him. It should have been a flagrant. No ejection. Right call. Hinrich should have been clapping his hands and laughing all the way to the foul line.

For everyone who has played, I think these distinctions are pretty clear. And in my opinion, the NBA got most of the calls, penalties and suspensions of the last few weeks correct. I think the league has gotten it right.

Thoughts?

 

[shatterkneesinc]

dirty= bruce bowen
hard foul=ron artest

 

[CP1708]

All of it is interpretation, and intent, and prior history.

Ron Artest hits a guy a certain way, flagrant 2.
Von Wafer hits a guy exact same way, personal foul, maybe a flagrant 1.

It's how you're know, what you've done before, and how you handle yourself.

But I feel it's impossible to clearly label something on the court. Kobe's elbow was dirty?

Wasn't Artest's elbow sitting on Kobe's shoulder? Didn'tKobe get him in the chest, while still playing the game? Dirty? Come on.

People are so quick with their judgements, but it's really just opinion's and nothing else. And it's the same in every sport.

Greg Maddux plunks dude in the head, ball got away from him.
Roger Clemens plunks dude in the head, he's a headhunter.

It all just depends on which side you're on in a given game.

 

[doublejs07]

Rondo didn't make a "basketball play" and should have been given a flagrant-2 for what he did to Hinrich...but that's beating a dead horse.Horry got ejected and a game suspension for essentially doing the same thing to Steve Nash

I'll say this...the NBA has been REAL inconsistent with how they have been assessing flagrants, ejections, and suspension length. If you look at some ofthe offenses (D12 on Dalembert), it's hard to see why he wasn't given more than a game, when in years past guys like JR Reid (when he elbowed AC Green)got 2....and that was a MUCH different NBA. It goes on and on....all I want is some consistency. It looks REAL bad when the NBA downgrades a flagrant (likethey've done on Ron Artest) the day after he gets ejected. An ejected Ron Artest TOTALLY changes the landscape of the game he was playing in. The refs havea hard enough job as it is, but with the benefit of using the video monitor to make sure that they get calls "right," there is really no excuse tobotch things in the nature like what we've seen.

 

[vctry20]

I usually just go by whether he was going for the ball

 

[inine5]

Rondo didn't make a "basketball play" and should have been given a flagrant-2 for what he did to Hinrich...but that's beating a dead horse. Horry got ejected and a game suspension for essentially doing the same thing to Steve Nash
politics.... if i'm not mistaken, i believe Nash was the MVP that season..... you lay a hand on the MVP and you're likely to besuspended......

 

[CP1708]

J's you aren't referring to game 3 with Artest though are you? Because that was in the final seconds, it didn't change anything in the game atall.

If he was ejected for that in the 3rd quarter, then I can see what you're sayin.

 

[alcapone]

Hard Foul = 1989
Dirty Play = 2009

 

[N41D]

Pretty easy to tell the difference between a hard foul and head-hunting, IMO...

If you're going at somebody above the shoulders, taking somebody's legs out from under them, or just flat out not making a play on the basketball,it's dirty... And THAT'S what flagrant fouls should be reserved for... Making a play on the ball and committing a hard foul with the body is part ofbasketball, but the NBA has really come down hard on that sort of thing the past few years...

Rondo throwing Kirk into the scorer's table, Dwight's elbow in Dalembert's ear... Those types of things deserve flagrant fouls... Kenyon Martinputting his shoulder/elbow in Dirk's chest, Ron Artest's hard foul on Pau, don't deserve the flagrant label... They're hard fouls. Those areguys sending a message without going at somebody with any malicious intent...

The line should be very clear-cut and the NBA, for whatever reason, acts like there's a ton of gray area... Don't understand it...

 

[doublejs07]

Originally Posted by CP1708

J's you aren't referring to game 3 with Artest though are you? Because that was in the final seconds, it didn't change anything in the game at all.

If he was ejected for that in the 3rd quarter, then I can see what you're sayin.

No at that instant it didn't...but it didn't matter when that foul occured, because Artest was going to get a flagrant-2 regardless...

 

[mytoasterspeak]

Hard foul is a play on the ball that will absolutely stop a scoring opportunity, that the player will remember for rest of game. Dirty is a foul thatdoesn't involve the ball and is overly malicious such as the derek fisher foul or the Kobe elbow to Artest throat. Hard fouls are Houston and Cleveland.Dirty are Lakers and Celtics.

 

[kobefan23]

^Exactly.

I know this is a little off from the topic title, but I think it breaks down into how the refs call it...

The problem is the NBA refs determine whether a foul is a Flagrant 1 vs. 2 vs. a hard foul on the RESULT of the play aka how hard the guy lands on the floor.If a guy stays on his feet, you'll rarely see a Flagrant Foul called. But if the same "force" of a foul is applied to a smaller player and hefalls/flops onto the ground, it's an automatic Flagrant 1 ATLEAST.

Flagrant's should have nothing to do with the result of the foul and everything to do with the intention of the foul. If you go for ball, it's alwaysjust a hard foul. If you go for head/neck/intentional, then flagrant.

 

[CP1708]

Dirk just said something that completely triggered something from yesterday.

Blcok/Charge fouls. I could make a damn case those are more dirty then anything.

And if someone could find the youtube clip and post it that would be lovely.

Guy drives the ball down the paint. What's his goal? To score. He isn't doing anything else but going to the cup to get a bucket.

Defender sees this and slides not to make a play, not to do anything, just to get IN DRIVING PLAYERS PATH and draw a call.

Driver goes up for the shot, defender slides in position, contact happens, driver is called for a FOUL going for a basket, defender is patted on the back andcongragulated.

Oh, and the driver comes down flat on his back, and is done for the game. Remember how this all started, he was going down a wide open lane to get a bucket,the defender simply slid in front to draw a call.

The players, Lamar Odom and Shane Battier.

The block/Charge call HAS GOT TO BE FIXED. Either go for the ball, or let the play go. A charge by definition is when a player runs directly into where youare standing. Not when a player runs to the hole and you jump in front of him to bag for a whistle.

 

[daytona 5000]

Agree with the article.

 

[grittyman20]

Originally Posted by mYToAsterspeak

Hard foul is a play on the ball that will absolutely stop a scoring opportunity, that the player will remember for rest of game. Dirty is a foul that doesn't involve the ball and is overly malicious such as the derek fisher foul or the Kobe elbow to Artest throat.

So what exactly do you mean by "overly malicious"? Because the way I see it, dirty plays are those that are usually done intentionallyand the with the understanding that someone could really get seriously hurt.

Was the 6'1 Fisher really going to hurt the 6'9 Scola with his body shot?

I don't think so...I say that was just a hard foul, but an excessively hardone.

 

[airjaw]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

Originally Posted by mYToAsterspeak

Hard foul is a play on the ball that will absolutely stop a scoring opportunity, that the player will remember for rest of game. Dirty is a foul that doesn't involve the ball and is overly malicious such as the derek fisher foul or the Kobe elbow to Artest throat.

So what exactly do you mean by "overly malicious"? Because the way I see it, dirty plays are those that are usually done intentionally and the with the understanding that someone could really get seriously hurt.

Was the 6'1 Fisher really going to hurt the 6'9 Scola with his body shot?

I don't think so...I say that was just a hard foul, but an excessively hard one.

Height has nothing to do with it. Fisher is built like a small linebacker. I'm 5'10 and I bet I could lay Scola flat on his back if Iwound up, put my shoulder down, and jumped into him like Fisher did.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

Originally Posted by mYToAsterspeak

Hard foul is a play on the ball that will absolutely stop a scoring opportunity, that the player will remember for rest of game. Dirty is a foul that doesn't involve the ball and is overly malicious such as the derek fisher foul or the Kobe elbow to Artest throat.

So what exactly do you mean by "overly malicious"? Because the way I see it, dirty plays are those that are usually done intentionally and the with the understanding that someone could really get seriously hurt.

Was the 6'1 Fisher really going to hurt the 6'9 Scola with his body shot?

I don't think so...I say that was just a hard foul, but an excessively hard one.

gritty, ignore this dude...not worth it...he doesnt know any better if you seen his other posts


anyways dirty play=raja bells clothesline and rondos to hinrich...hard foul=artest...but since of his name and his rep its gonna be overboard

 

[inine5]

the difference is very easy to explain....

1. "hard foul" = when your team does it
2. "dirty play" = when it gets done to you

 

[mjsaver]

Ask RAJA BELL, im sure he can show you...

 

[DsLee]

I think intent is the difference between a dirty foul and hard foul. A dirty foul has nothing to do with the game, just pretty much trying to hurt the otherdude.

A hard foul however, is like sending a message to the other team saying things aren't going to be easy. For example, you see a dude driving in likehe's Moses, trying to part the seas, then maybe you commit a hard foul to let em know you won't just step aside and allow that.

That's how I see it.

 

[coolnificent]

Originally Posted by iNiNe5

the difference is very easy to explain....

1. "hard foul" = when your team does it
2. "dirty play" = when it gets done to you

Yup, Bruce Bowen is a Saint

 

[japanair21]

Shane Battier
Rajon Rondo.

 

[do be doo]

....

 

[do be doo]

Originally Posted by COOLnificent

Originally Posted by iNiNe5

the difference is very easy to explain....

1. "hard foul" = when your team does it
2. "dirty play" = when it gets done to you

Yup, Bruce Bowen is a Saint

Yup....St. Bowen

 

[scotthallwithapick]

Originally Posted by iNiNe5

the difference is very easy to explain....

1. "hard foul" = when your team does it
2. "dirty play" = when it gets done to you