NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

CP reminded me of this thread and thought I'd put a bow on LeBron's CLE return:

I can't change anyone's opinion. I'm the original Nick Wright & still would place Jordan #1..for now. And you can still talk me into Kareem placing ahead. But there is going to be a growing case. Jordan had 11 full years in Chicago (only 18 games in '86, only 17 in '95) - and two with Washington. LeBron just finished a full year 15. The opinion is largely going to turn generational, sub 30 year olds will view it differently than those older. Whatever, it's going to be those two at the end of it and lines will be drawn.

But, I have a hard time seeing anyone have him outside the Top 4 grouping of MJ, Kareem, Russell and now LeBron. The totality of his career already is a lot to overlook even if you wanted to. Guys like Magic and Bird are being lapped and there are more of the (similar) narratives to poke into Wilt than Bron at this point.

He just finished year 15 posting 28/9/9 on 54% in all 82 games led the league in minutes per game. Throw in 22 more playoff games at 34/9/9 on 54%. I'm of the opinion that making the Finals this year was his second greatest accomplishment behind winning the title in '16. That team flat out stunk.

The East is weak, but he's been tested most seasons. 2011 down 1-0 in Chicago without home court. 2012 down 2-1 in Indiana, down 8 at halftime in G4 without Bosh. 2012 down 3-2 in Boston. 2013 Pacers series went 7. '14 was the weakest Heat team but never a test, '15 down 2-1 in Chicago buzzer beater to win G4...'16 and '17 went untouched and this year got pushed further than any time before in Rnd 1 and vs Boston. In the end, making 8 straight finals is absurd and it hasn't exactly been a cakewalk some years.

This is doing it year after year, and his durability and commitment to being the best athlete in the world might be the most impressive aspect of him now:

Most consecutive seasons out of opening round regardless of format:
LeBron 13
Russell 13
Shaq 12
Pippen 11
Magic 10
Bird 9
Kobe 8
Duncan 8
Kareem 8
Wilt 7
Jordan 6
West 5

Forget the Finals, this is just consecutive seasons out of Rnd 2 since expansion in '84:
LeBron 8
Magic & Kareem 6
Jordan & Pippen 5
Bird 5
Kobe & Shaq 3
Duncan & Malone 3


His regular season total numbers currently are:
7th All Time in Points
59th in rebounds
11th in assists
16th in steals
114th in blocks
54th in games played
18th in minutes played
2nd in average PER

If you just gave him 5 years at 75 games with 24/6/6 with a steal and a block a game - and said that's it, career is over (personally think he's playing until he's 40 and leaving the door open to play with his son - and he has no sign of slowing down now)

He'd rank:
1st All Time in Points (and first ever at 40K)
32nd in rebounds
3rd in assists
7th in steals
53rd in blocks
3rd in games played
2nd in minutes played (given 34ish a game)

I would say 5 years left of his career is a very modest projection and you see where the totals end up. For him, in my mind a game of 30/8/8 on 50% or better always feels like his A game. Since he came into the league it's only been done 256 times, by anyone. He holds 72 of those 256. Only has occurred 41 times in the post-season. He has 20 of those 41.

And I don't even really care about the numbers. His smarts, his athleticism and impact on a basketball game is of course what is most important - along with a skill level that has continued to grow and evolve over the years. There is no situation he hasn't seen and no longer any spot in which you can make him feel uncomfortable.

His total playoff numbers:
1st in points
6th in rebounds
3rd in assists
1st in steals
15th in blocks
1st in minutes played
4th in games

This is where he's lapping people. He's about a post-season and a half away from doubling Larry Bird's post-season points total. Nobody ever hit 6K, he's 100 shy away of 7K and probably tops 9K when it's done. He'll be in 1st in points, games, minutes played, steals. 2nd in assists, 3rd or 4th in rebounds.

He's 7th in Finals games played, 2nd in points and assists.

He already is 12x All NBA 1st team (most ever). The 4 MVP's will feel low, but whatever. Voter fatigue and no, he doesn't go full speed all year long. Other guys are great, too.


The 3-6 mark is what will continue to be held against him. I always had 4 in my mind of what *felt* right. If he stays in Cleveland he won't win another, and that's fine and maybe he's okay with just staying home. But I doubt that and I'm guessing his move this summer will put him in a place where he can contend and try to get to 4 or 5. But the one in Cleveland is what he needed, for narrative and by all accounts for himself. That one felt different and made his career, for the most part, complete. They're not all created equal, a certain player is finding that out now.

But the Finals losses to some, is a stain. We like to prop up a team accomplishment but conveniently leave out the competent coaches (Phil, Riley, Pop) and front offices that have gone hand in hand with 4, 5, 6 time title winners. I think he had that in Miami but chose the route of unfinished business. We correlate 'help' with teammates and not other surrounding aspects. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I'll be waiting a while before the Cavs doing anything ever again (he does not run that team and there are countless examples of this despite the narrative). And the Heat, as well run as I think they are, are stuck in basketball purgatory. Right where they were before he arrived. The best thing he picked up in Miami was a greater commitment to his body and conditioning and it's paying off. He took his greatest advantage and pushed it further. It is worth watching how many of his peers can play 15+ high level seasons, is this is a changing of the times or is he truly a genetic freak? Probably somewhere in the middle.

And hey, some of the critiques are his fault! he had his pick two times around, and now a 3rd. He picked Kevin Love. He had the best offensive player he's played with decide that he'd rather be elsewhere. Sometimes he flexes power for roster spots of old friends. He doesn't have time to spend watching young players grow and he turns his career into a year by year grind - there is no big picture view these teams can take - it's a gift and a curse. I get why some still roll their eyes at him, I do it too. The cast on the hand after G4, some of the things he says. I get it. Some still don't understand why he doesn't barrel to the rim and score every play. Despite the limitations of the human body and how basketball actually works (guess what, there's a lot of help behind those Steph Curry switches), I even understand in some instances. He’s such an overbearing force - that offensive systems don’t truly exist, he is the system. And that is almost always the better option (actually yes, always). But does it knock some guys out of rhythm, kill some confidence? I’m sure, but he’s too good to not accommodate. It’s why Kyrie was such a good fit for him, he could go get his own and it was the right blend. Anyway, in the big picture, with what he's done.. If you're arguing him outside of the Top 3 or 4 at this point and that the pace he's at, we're probably just going to agree to disagree. And if the failing of his career is being 2% less than Michael Jordan, I think he's done okay.

I don't know what he does now. LA doesn't feel quite good enough, even with Paul George. Houston is a hired gun move that has the window of 1, 2 years before that roster craps out. I don't like it. Boston can't and should not happen. Staying should not happen. Miami screwed their cap 20x over and a return does not seem feasible. I hope it's Philly. Philly has the most underrated and overlooked pro basketball history and unlike the Lakers, he's instantly far and away thee guy. There is no shadow - nothing he does in LA will be good enough, Philly has a fairly rich history that he can take to another level. There's young talent and assets still to work with - and a perfect landing spot for a GM who he actually likes (David Griffin). It keeps him East, and creates a rivalry that could be incredible with Boston. It makes the most sense to me.

So, my opinion of his game has not changed, amazingly he avoided the route of being Darvin Ham. He's just a little wiser, a little more skilled and a little bit older (he's for the most part superman, but there are limits that show every now and then with age).

In the end - he's great, it's still okay and warranted to nitpick some aspects. You won't be able to deny his body of work. There are chapters still unwritten, as a fan, that's the most exciting and rewarding part of the journey. He's squeezing everything out of it.
 
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Allen's post is why I wanted this thread. Getting those kind of takes vs the NBA thread takes is incredibly more satisfying.

I tried to copy and paste it into the OP, but that joint is all ****ed up now. So I used the Second post, best I could do. I have no idea how to clean up the first post, but so much is buried within weird spoilers, all the formatting is **** now. :smh:
 
There still has to be factored in the path to those playoff stats. I've always pulled for the Eastern Conf but can admit it has been much worse over the last 15 years. Lebron staying in the East is the path of least resistance compared to playing for a squad in the West during that time.
 
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Where kd going to end up in y’all eyes?

And I can’t be the only one saying draymond green ain’t a HOF player

His ceiling is top 15 if he doesn't leave GS, shot at top 10 if he goes and wins elsewhere.
 
15? Are y’all expecting his longevity to be trash?

He’s gonna be 25+ ppg deep into his 30s, multiple finals MVPs already, MVP award, only Wilt and MJ have more scoring titles.

He’s going to finish with more points than most & his efficiency is only rivaled by Jordan & Bron.

Who exactly are we putting over him if the ceiling is 15?
 
KD will end up firmly in the top 10-15. Actually RIGHT behind Bron (who I personally have at 5/6). I’m thinking 7-10 range for KD.

Steph will also end up in the 10-15 range. Something like 12th best player of all time and 2nd best PG ever.
 
Well said al3xis al3xis . Especially the critical parts. I appreciate how you can laud Bron’s all time greatness....but also recognize that there is a “there” for his detractors. I got Bron as currently as the 5th/6th best of all time (and if I’m really in my hating bag and being unreasonable....I’m slide him down to 8 :lol:). But I’m not tripping over where you got him.
 
I "think" I am going to have Steph higher than KD, in my personal opinion. And I like KD, hell, I've been arguing for him against Allen and Osh. But to me, Steph is more valuable overall to his team, before, and with KD.

That said, with that 15 and in range, who are we talkin?

In no order, MJ and Bron, Kareem, Magic and Bird, Russell, Wilt, West, Shaq and Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Oscar, KD/Steph that's 15.

Who is missing? Moses? Karl Malone? Dirk?
 
I "think" I am going to have Steph higher than KD, in my personal opinion. And I like KD, hell, I've been arguing for him against Allen and Osh. But to me, Steph is more valuable overall to his team, before, and with KD.

Steph is not sniffing anything close to KD. As valuable as he is offensively, dude is the single reason teams are able to compete with the Warriors in the playoffs. We're talking resumes here, not personal opinion on who we like more
 
Steph is not sniffing anything close to KD. As valuable as he is offensively, dude is the single reason teams are able to compete with the Warriors in the playoffs. We're talking resumes here, not personal opinion on who we like more

I didn't say I like Steph more. I said I think he is more valuable than KD is. The same way you believe Steph is getting attacked on D, he is the reason that O operates so well. And that O is legendary. And that was pre-KD. (and with of course)

I don't have an issue if someone has KD higher, but at this point I think I'd lean Steph should be higher. But they both got 5-6 more years, we'll see how it shakes out.
 
Steph is such a weird case to me when it comes to talking about greatest players of all time.

Just a weird case for a superstar because its hard to argue anyone being in the type of situation he's been in. Literally perfect fit, perfect scenario, etc. He's great at what he does. One of the best 5 year spans ever for a NBA player. I guess my questions for him will come from longevity and if he can continue to build his resume. His dominance started a little late (5th year of his career). He's already 30. Can you see him having another 5 years similar to his last 5?

Having 3 titles, 2 MVP's, 5x all star, 5x all-NBA and all the 3 point accolades already gave him an excellent status. But, when we start talking about all-time greats at PG, how will his career resume look in comparison to others before him? Does longevity even matter with him considering the 5-year span he had?
 
I didn't say I like Steph more. I said I think he is more valuable than KD is. The same way you believe Steph is getting attacked on D, he is the reason that O operates so well. And that O is legendary. And that was pre-KD. (and with of course)

I don't have an issue if someone has KD higher, but at this point I think I'd lean Steph should be higher. But they both got 5-6 more years, we'll see how it shakes out.

my bad, thanks for the clarification. Still suspect logic, imo. They aren't anywhere near close defensively. Steph is lowkey worse than Harden defensively, and I just cringed when I typed that. :lol:

and offensively KD/Steph are close (in GS), and I'm still giving KD the nod there :lol:. I'd concede the offense (by a smidget) to Steph for sake of the argument though. He's still not touching KD. If we're talking about value to the entire NBA, this isn't really conversation worthy.
 
Excellent break down by al3xis al3xis
I’m not a Bron Hater or Lover at all. I can appreciate his greatness without going overboard. I personally have him top 5 in no particular order. I’m 33 so I didn’t fully understand what I was watching during MJs first 3 peat. The second 3 peat I could comprehend the greatness that we saw so of course he’s my defacto number 1. I’m just glad I’ve been able to watch all of the more recent greats perform. I wish I could’ve appreciated Tim Duncan more honestly. He was beyond skilled with very little holes in game.

My personal favorite plays in no particular order:

MJ
Penny
Allan Houston
Ray Allen
Dwade
Steph
 
my bad, thanks for the clarification. Still suspect logic, imo. They aren't anywhere near close defensively. Steph is lowkey worse than Harden defensively, and I just cringed when I typed that. :lol:

and offensively KD/Steph are close (in GS), and I'm still giving KD the nod there :lol:. I'd concede the offense (by a smidget) to Steph for sake of the argument though. He's still not touching KD. If we're talking about value to the entire NBA, this isn't really conversation worthy.

If you think Steph is worse than Harden defensively after the performance he just had against Harden and Cp3....idk what to tell you :lol:. He was pretty damn good on defense in that Houston series....and if anything...is underrated as hell as a defender. Metrics and the eye test tell you he’s a great positional team defender, great hands for steals, and an above average on ball defender. He doesn’t get beat. He said always there. He checks out as an above average to good defender.

And what do you mean he’s the sole reason teams are able to compete with the warriors? They’re some seconds away from winning 4 Straight hops :lol:. 2016 was the anomaly.

7D7DDFD8-C9AD-459D-A923-B1E30948D212.jpeg


https://www.theringer.com/platform/...on-james-steph-curry-mismatch-2018-nba-finals



2DBEB3BE-7858-41D3-B7F7-E827E6109ECB.jpeg


And I’m not trying to say dude has been some elite 1 on 1 defender (because modern basketball isn’t about that at the PG position). But he understands his role in the team concept and executes it well against almost every team. They’ve amongst been the best defense in the league....and he’s been a part of that. He does his part as a Team defender


He’s RIGHT there. Weird case for a great since his run is so dominant but compact.
 
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This being LeBron's 15th season at his level is just crazy :lol:

Whether a fan or or not you got to appreciate this because we didn't get to sit and watch this volume with a lot of superstars. Most got a late start cause of college, some got hurt, some just retired. But It's crazy to see.

Pro seasons played
14 - Oscar Robertson
14 - Jerry West
14 - David Robinson
14 - Allen Iverson
13 - Michael Jordan (Bulls)
13 - Bill Russell
13 - Larry Bird
13 - Isiah Thomas
13 - Bob Cousy
12 - Magic Johnson (basically)
12 - Walt Frazier (basically)
12 - Elgin Baylor (basically)
 
bonafide hustla bonafide hustla can you elaborate on this line please?:



Value in terms of what?

sure thing - it was in response to Steph being more valuable to his team. Which I understand where that statement comes from. Steph is the most important functional piece to the Splash factory. You can't do that on every team in the NBA though. You can KD on any team in the NBA and be a contender. Most people throw out his 3-1 loss and other random bullet points to try to discredit that purview when I mention it, but if they didn't watch the Thunder (all games, not just nat'l televised) from 08-13, I normally can't feel where they're coming from. He was balling at stupid high levels, in spite of, there. This KD isn't even the best, just probably the most numerically efficient.
 
sure thing - it was in response to Steph being more valuable to his team. Which I understand where that statement comes from. Steph is the most important functional piece to the Splash factory. You can't do that on every team in the NBA though. You can KD on any team in the NBA and be a contender.

This is a fallacy....and you just talking out your azzz and letting the hate blind you :lol:.

You put Steph, Bron, KD, Harden, Cp3, Kawhi, or
on almost ANY functional team.....

That’s 50 wins. You REALLY forget Steph was averaging 24 & 8 in a Mark Jackson offense....leading team to 48-50 wins in the West with an average roster playing a subpar team offense right?
 
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