NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

CP1708 · Jun 10, 2011

Welcome. We could potentially be without basketball for a while which is sad since this has been one of, if not THEE best seasons in NBA history.

That said, we have some guys that are finishing up their career resumes/legacies as well as people entering new chapters into their bio's. So I thought we would go thru the players that matter and look at what was accomplished this year. You can project ahead, review what you have seen, slot guys in top __ what ever number you choose, top 10, top 20, top 50 all time, whatever you want to do.

Now, this stuff can be touchy, so we want grown ups only at the table. The best quotes will be selected and copy/pasted under spoilers for the players that are being referenced in the OP, this will give a comprehensive look from our NT experts as well as some stats that can be dug up, career lists, etc etc.

If you have suggestions you would like me to add, post them up, I'll talk to some people and we'll see what we can do. I'm not alone in this, I have forewarned several NT regs of this thread, I will be looking towards them for input on ideas.

*Now remember, we are not going to be updating Chris Duhon's career and @#$% in here, this is big boy NBA basketball, top shelf only.

Players we'll be working with.

Shaquille O'Neal

Steve Nash

Tim Duncan

Kevin Garnett

Ray Allen

Paul Pierce

Kobe Bryant

Dirk

Jason Kidd

Lebron James

D Wade

Kids like D12, Chris Paul, D-Rose, and Durant will not be addressed in here. They can be mentioned, or brought up, but no need to go thru their career, they are all just getting started, tho clearly they all had outstanding postseasons individually as well as their teams for a couple of them. We'll all be long gone by the time their resumes need to be looked at.

Questions that can be asked/answered, looked ahead to, projected, etc etc.

Big 3 in Boston, is 1 title a success, or failure for their collective careers?

Where will Nash end up to finish his career, in a chase for a title?

Shaq's legacy

Is Duncan done adding to his impressive resume?

Does Kobe have one last run in him?

Dirk and Kidd......TBA

Bron and Wade.......TBA

I found a top 11 all time player list from Brousard during the playoffs on Twitter, I'll post it here as a reference, along with Simmons Pyramid numbers. (If you know of any other media member lists, let me know, I'll put them with these)

MJ

Magic

Kareem

Wilt

Bird

Kobe

Shaq

Russell

Oscar

Hakeem

Duncan

The Bill Simmons Pyramid (all time list with a fancy name

)

Spoiler [+]

MJ

Russell

Kareem

Magic

Bird

Wilt
Kobe

Duncan

West

Oscar

Hakeem
Shaq

Moses

Havlicek

Elgin

Julius

Pettit

Malone

Barkley
Lebron

Cousy
Garnett

Isiah

Pippen

Stockton

Rick Barry

Bill Walton.

Admiral

Iverson

Willis Reed

Cowens

Frazier

Sam Jones

Iceman Gervin

McHale

Mikan
Dirk

Nash

Ewing

Payton

Unseld
Kidd

Drexler

Thurmond

DeBusschere

Hal Greer

Cunningham

Worthy

Elvin Hayes

Dolph Schayes

Bill Sharman

Dennis Johnson
Wade

Pierce

Nique

Arizin

Heinsohn

Bernard King

Robert Parish

Nate Archibald

McAdoo

Reggie

Ray

Jerry Lucas

Alex English

Dantley

Pearl Monroe

Pistol Pete

Rodman

David Thompson

Lenny Wilk

Webber

Moncrief

Dumars
TMac

This is his top 75 all time. He mentioned and made room within his top 96 or so for D12, CP3, and Durant, couple more years, I am more than sure we will be placing them in here somewhere. Only other active dude worth noting was Vince, he had him at 83 I believe.

The Slam top 100 All Time

Spoiler [+]

1. Micahel Jordan

2. Wilt Chamberlain

3. Bill Russell

4. Shaquille O'Neal

5. Oscar Robertson

6. Magic Johnson

7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

8. Tim Duncan

9. Larry Bird

10. Kobe Bryant

11. Jerry West

12. Elgin Baylor

13. Hakeem Olajuwon

14. Bob Pettit

15. Moses Malone

16. Julius Erving

17. John Havlicek

18. Karl Malone

19. Isiah Thomas

20. Charles Barkley

21. Rick Barry

22. John Stockton

23. Elvin Hayes

24. Bob Cousy

25. David Robinson

26. Kevin McHale

27. Scottie Pippen

28. Jason Kidd

29. George Mikan

30. Kevin Garnett

31. LeBron James

32. Willis Reed

33. Wes Unseld

34. Nate Thurmond

35. Dolph Schayes

36. Walt Frazier

37. Patrick Ewing

38. Jerry Lucas

39. Gary Payton

40. Allen Iverson

41. Billy Cunningham

42. Clyde Drexler

43. Dominique Wilkins

44. Dave Cowens

45. George Gervin

46. Bob McAdoo

47. Earl Monroe

48. Dennis Rodman

49. Dwyane Wade

50. Steve Nash

51. Walt Bellamy

52. Tiny Archibald

53. Dennis Johnson

54. Reggie Miller

55. Dirk Nowitzki

56. Connie Hawkins

57. Dave Bing

58. James Worthy

59. Hal Greer

60. Pistol Pete Maravich

61. Jack Twyman

62. Bob Lanier

63. David Thompson

64. Joe Fulks

65. Sam Jones

66. Gus Johnson

67. Robert Parish

68. Tommy Heinsohn

69. Bernard King

70. Bill Sharman

71. Paul Arizin

72. Lenny Wilkens

73. Zo Mourning

74. Bill Walton

75. Neil Johnston

76. Dave DeBusschere

77. Paul Pierce

78. Joe Dumars

79. Ray Allen

80. Chris Webber

81. Ed Macauley

82. Alex English

83. Adrian Dantley

84. Artis Gilmore

85. Cliff Hagan

86. Dwight Howard

87. Tim Hardaway

88. Chris Mullin

89. Mitch Richmond

90. Sidney Moncrief

91. Bobby Dandridge

92. Bob Love

93. Jim Pollard

94. Spencer Haywood

95. Dikembe Mutombo

96. Pau Gasol

97. Tracy McGrady

98. Grant Hill

99. Vince Carter

100. Buck Williams

My own personal top dozen players or so of all time. Again, this from CP1708

MJ

Magic

Kareem

Russell

Bird

Kobe

Duncan

Shaq

Wilt

Oscar

West

Dream

Nash

Spoiler [+]

16K points, almost 10K assists, 2K playoff points, and top 5 or so all time playoff assists. 2 MVP's and 3 all NBA first teams.

No Finals apperances

No playoffs this year for Nash, so he didn't have the chance to upgrade some of his numbers. Solid career so far, but he needs a big finish to really elevate his status.

Bill Simmons Pyramid had him in the 40th slot or so all time. A nice finish to his career may move him up a couple slots, but I don't see him movin to much further.

He should be traded next year, but not sure yet where he might land.

3 Top 3 MVP finishes

7x All Star

Projected Years left, 1-2

2012 Update, just a short regular season, no all NBA teams, no real huge milestones, no all star, no playoffs, no real update.

CP1708 wrote:

Steve Nash

I have probably only typed more words about 1-2 players on NT than Steve. Few years ago, I was simply shocked at what people were saying during his best years.

His Dallas days were fun, and tough on me back then. Nick Van Exel was my second favorite player all time (after Magic) and he was there in Dallas playing with Steve and Dirk and Michael Finley. They were certainly a fun team to watch, and Don Nelson ball will always put up TONS of points. I remember always thinking that Dirk was the star, and Nash the 2nd man on the team, but it seemed that Nick was the balls of the team. It was his style, he had no fear and a @#$% you attitude at all times. Nash was the quiet presense. No frills, just go out and do his job. Get guys the ball, run the team, that was that. I could make a case that he only did that on offense though, on defense it was sort of his rest time.

He was a solid solid player, but I never thought of him being anything elite, or special. Much the same as I never thought Mark Price was elite or special, just very very good.

Cuban played the odds, and let Nash leave as a free agent. Steve going to Phoenix was a great career move for him, one it was the team that drafted him, 2 it seems to have the magic powers to heal or some @#$%. Players all seem to rejuvinate in the Phoenix air or something. This was something else though. Steve was joining one helluva a nice young core, FULL of talent to play with. It wasn't Don Nelson, but it wasn't far from it either. They weren't very deep yet, but they had plenty of star power. Stat, Marion, Q (when he was good) and a young Joe Johnson. Stat's unique outside game for a 6-11 guy, as well as liking to be far away from rough and tumble inside play was perfect for Steve when mixed with 3 other guys that could shoot from deep. This opened the court to Nash like never before. He had lanes, room to move, vision to make passes, angles, everything. It was apparent early their style would work well for Steve. (Dirk was a similiar weapon to Stat in that sense, but in Dallas at the end they had added Jamison, and Walker, plus had Shawn Bradley's slow @#$ cloggin things up a bit. The angles weren't the same)

For reasons I will never, ever understand, Nash moving to Phoenix and them improving led the media to give Nash the MVP award. He was given so much credit for changing their team, when really the year before was just that much of a disaster. Having Marbury lead your team will make you look worse than you really are. But still, everyone gave credit to Steve for their success, and he took the MVP away from Shaq. The fact that the MVP averaged 15 points and 11 assists was stunning to me considering Jason Kidd could put numbers up like that, or John Stockton, or even Mark Jackson, and none of them ever won MVP. (Kidd did come close though)

The following year was just as bad, Nash won the MVP again, putting him in some rather select company but at least he had a slightly better argument since Stat was down for the year. Still, people were out of their minds and gave him so much credit for others success. I wish they would have realized at the time what they were doing, which is all I was ever screaming for.

Nash was SURROUNDED by shooters. Guys that could put the ball in the basket. They may not have been elite at any other things, but shooting/scoring, they could do. Spread them all out, and Nash can rack up assists with ease. Year 1 he had Stat, Marion, Q, Joe Johnson, Jim Jackson, Barbosa, scorers everywhere. The next year the Suns went even more 3 ball, giving him Marion, Eddie House, James Jones, Barbosa, Raja Bell, multi use Diaw, even Tim Thomas was brought in to shoot from outside. Their lone inside presence was Kurt Thomas, who is still in the league today battling. They gave Nash everything he could ask for, guys who could shoot when he gave them the ball. People would claim HE made THEM better, which is part true, and mostly myth. The fact was they could score, he made sure to get them the ball where they liked so they could. I argued a billion times with people, if 3 of his starters were Kwame, Smush and Luke Walton, he wouldn't get half the assists he gets in Phoenix, they either wouldn't make shots, or even catch the ball in Kwame's case.

People wouldn't listen. They still swear up and down that Nash made them all better shooters. Of course all of those guys have gone on to other teams and continued to make shots, but that will be overlooked forever.

The last few years, he's played just as well, if not better, but the Suns tried to change thier system for a bit to get more "playoff" like, but it failed quickly, so they went back to shooters galore, and whatdya know, Nash's game got better.

They put Stat, J Rich, Channing Frye, and Grant Hill around him as shooters, though Grant didn't have the 3 range they needed, so they would sub in Jared Dudley for stretches to extend the defense and help create those lanes for Nash again. This got them close to a finals again, but it was still just a gimmick offense that wouldn't last in postseason play.

Failures by the front office have kept Steve from really having a shot at getting to the finals. Smarter moves by them, and they quite possibly could have done something bigger. But they were cheap, and short sighted, and it will cost Nash in the end. Hopefully this year he will be relased from prison, and get traded by the Suns.

One of the things I have not touched on yet is, Steve may be one of thee best shooters the game has ever seen. One of my qualms of him was that he didn't shoot more. Especially as good as he is, he should have been shooting more to help his team, rather than waiting til it was too late to get them back into games. IMO he could have EASILY scored 20 a night, and lost only an assist or 2 a game and maybe more effectively and efficiently helped his team, but he was a consumate team guy, and took the losses with his teammates well. He was a fighter, and feisty, and had heart, but you need murder in your heart sometimes, and he didn't have that. He cared, he wanted to win, he tried, but he didn't have murder in him. It cost him.

Better front office work, lil extra evil in his soul, Steve could have been to a couple finals and maybe even won a title or two. As a token parting gift, the NBA gave him 2 MVP's for his troubles instead. Bet he wishes he could trade those in, and I bet the media wishes for a do over themselves. But hindsight is 20/20. %$#%%@@%@!+!* shoulda listened to me all that time. I was lonely tellin em.

Shaq

Spoiler [+]

What a career.

4 Titles, 1 MVP, 3 Finals MVP's, 8 All NBA first teams. 28,500 points, 13K rebounds, 5K+ playoff points, 2500 playoff rebounds,

6 Finals apperances

Top 5 in scoring both regular season and postseason.

He wasn't able to do too much this year due to age and injuries, but it won't take away from his legacy at all.

Simmons has him in the 11-12 range of his pyramid. Brousard at 7.

Shaq was a beast in his day, but my feeling is he left some numbers/accomplishments on the table. He didn't kill himself for the NBA like some did. Better work ethic, and he could have added another title or two, as well as a TON more stats. He was just that good.

5 Top 3 MVP finishes

15x All Star

Recently Retired

CP1708 wrote:

I'll start my own personal takes with Shaq.

One of the greatest entertainers/personalities to ever play the game of basketball. He was born to be in front of an audience, but as great as he was playin to crowds, he was equal to that on the basketball court. His early years in Orlando looked like he would form a team that would be elite for over a decade. Him, Penny, Horace, Scott, Nick Anderson just looked like they were going to be impossible to stop. They could space you, beat you down low, play defense, run, they could do anything. The strange thing to me was, they always seemed to get swept. Almost like once you took a game from them, they sort of lost belief in themselves. At the time, I chalked that up to them being young. Maybe that was it. But then Shaq left and went to LA, and it happened there too. Again, a young team, but yet again, Utah and San Antonio both swept them early on. Of course, that was before Phil.

Phil found a way to motivate Shaq like no other coach had. Of course Shaq was also now 27-28 years old, it may have been easier to get thru to him at that time in his career than if Phil coached him at 23-24.

Shaq's runs in LA were nothing short of ridiculous. In 2000 in their first real true playoff run, they struggled out of the gate learning how to win. They were taken to the max in both the first round, and the third round by Sacramento and Portland respectively, and Indiana proved tougher than they looked by taking LA to 6. Shaq however was not slowed down much. He went for 30, 15 and 3 with 2.5 blocks a game. He also played 43 minutes a game, the most of his career. This was Shaq's peak clearly. Amazingly the next year they played 7 less playoff games, his totals? 30, 15, and 3, with 2 blocks a game..........

He shot 56 and 55 percent as well. He was a flat out beast.

Having got his back to back titles, complacency had set in with Shaq. It would prove to be the only thing that could stop him. He took even more time off in 2002, and the beginning of the end of his era had started. The Lakers were able to regroup and get in sync enough to win the title again to get a 3 peat and join the Bulls 50's Lakers and the 60's Celtics as the only teams to do so.

Him winning the 3 titles and the last 2 by taking time off each season started to wear on the team during the early parts of regular seasons however. This caused more and more issues and eventually players and coaches were taking sides. It was not pretty. He played 67 games 3 years straight, basically timing off 15 games extra a year.

That can't be a damn coincidence. LA was worn down going for a 4th title, and the Spurs were able to knock them off only after Horry's 3 went in and out in game 5 of the second round that year. It deflated the team, they never recovered, the series and the run was over.

Payton and Malone came in the following year to help them win again, and while they made the finals, they had a ton of locker room issues, and injury issues that tore the team apart. It was something that should not have happened, and it damn sure hurt a chance for some real legacy stuff to go on. We're talkin MEGA legacy potential. 6-7 titles type legacy. But once a 100% united Detroit team embarrassed LA, Shaq was ready to move on.

He went to his 3rd team in the NBA, and no suprise, his 3rd elite SG to boot. His first year in Miami he played more games, but less minutes to reduce the wear and tear on him. A wise move. They had a shot in 05 at a title, but Wade was injured and Shaq wasn't enough anymore to carry a team like that.

The next year however, Wade was healthy and they were able to come back from an 0-2 defecit and win Shaq his 4th ring. The next year, Shaq was swept in the first round. (I will never get the sweep thing that followed Shaq's career, never)

Shaq finished out his career movin around here and there to try and win 1 more title, but wasn't able to stay healthy enough to help out.

At the end of the day, he has top 5 all around numbers both regular and post season. His free throw shooting was so poor, that he could EASILY be the number 1 or 2 scorer all time if he hit closer to 75% of his freebies. The guy missed 1,100 free throws in the playoffs alone. And he was only 700 points away from most playoff points all time. Few extra games instead of sweeps and a few more made free throws and that record could have been his.

At his peak, nobody was seein Shaq's overall production. No one. Not even Duncan. As I said in my beginning statements on these players, Duncan will have squeezed every ounce of his life into his career, while Shaq will have saved about a quarter tank of gas. Shaq COULD have played more games, more minutes, made more free throws, etc etc, had he, his career and numbers would be Kareem like, and I'm not joking. But Shaq had too much fun to want to die for basketball. There's no shame in that, he's had a great career, but I only wish I could have seen what his numbers would look like if he did go all in.

One last note, many athletes are decent guys, give to charity, etc etc. Shaq was different. He was even better with kids/people than he was with basketball. We've all seen and heard stories about him giving gifts to people, buying this and that, dropping off toys on Christmas, all kinds of stuff, but Shaq is the real deal. Recently a small town out near my way ran a story of a kid that had cancer as a teen, he's now like 25 I think, and whenever Shaq is in Portland to play the Blazers, he takes that kid out to dinner. He's bought him a car, they talk thru the season via text or phone calls, Shaq even plans on being the best man at the kids wedding someday. Just a random kid from a city no where near any place Shaq has ever lived. The guy has done weird/silly stuff in his day, he's no angel, but when it comes to giving and charity and what not, he's elite as they come. To me, this part belongs in his legacy just as much as his stats do.

I personally have him #7 all time, behind Bird, and ahead of Duncan.

KG

Spoiler [+]

1 Title, 1 MVP, 4 NBA first teams, 8 NBA defensive teams.

2 Finals apperances

23K points, just under 13K rebounds, almost 5K assists, just a ridiculous amount of stats here. 2K playoff points, 1,000+ rebounds and almost 500 assists in the playoffs.

IMO has about 2 years left at solid level, but no longer elite level. He could finish out some nice numbers to his career, but they need a lot of help to make a last run at a title next year.

Simmons has him in the 21-22 range of his pyramid. Top 5 PF of the game in my book, but I feel like he left some gas in the tank for his career honestly. There was a lot of go-to stuff that followed him in his career

1DPOY

4 Top 3 MVP finishes

14x All Star

Projected years left, 2

Originally Posted by airmaxpenny1

I personally feel KG is overrated in a career sense. Dude couldn't even carry a team to the playoff in Minnesota before he went to Boston, Dirk routinely carried bums to the top 3 seeds in the West. KG is the best defensive PF no doubt, but he needs another player to carry the load defensively and at the end of the day, great offense>great defense.

I really don't even see how someone can argue KGirk anymore, KG won 1 chip with two HOF's who were still both playing at a high level. Dirk got robbed of one, and might win another and the 2nd best player on those teams were Jason Terry

. Take away Dirk and put KG on the Mavs dude might not carry them into the playoffs even.

If I'm making an all-time great team, KG then makes sense for his defense and versatility (In Simmons term, the Wine Cellar) but if I want a guy to be the alpha dog on my team I take Dirk over Kg 1,000 times out of 1,000.

651akathePaul wrote:

He simply goes ghost on offense in 4th quarters. He still plays Defense, he still hustles, he still rebounds, sets screens, he's engaged in the game, but when the ball hits his hands, he can't move it along quick enough

Click to expand...

KG was never ghost in most 4th quarters in Minny. The knock is/was clutch shots. That is, the very last seconds of an entire game. I'll agree that he lacks those last minute beaters on his resume, but like you said in the rest of your sentence, he still did everything, and we do mean EVERYTHING else needed for his team to win. The guy had much less help than his counterparts (Duncan and Dirk). He made Wally an All-Star for crying out loud.

His abilities were greater than what his team had to offer. Unless he had a shooter on his team that could routinely nail down three's, he was so much less effective because of the constant double and triple teams. He had to kick it out. Not to mention the lack of high quality PG's he played with. Terrell Brandon on the decline of his career, but even he deferred to forcing KG make things happen on triple teams. Billups used KG to resurrect his career then he bounced. Outside of Brandon and Cassel, there's not a soul. He took a lineup of Troy Hudson, Wally, Rasho Nesterovic, and Joe Smith to the playoffs, whereas Dirk had guys like Finley and Nash.

And KG took his teams to the playoffs. They'd just always lose in the first round. After eight consecutive playoff appearances, his last two years in Minnesota were with guys no better than those he had like the lineup I mentioned above. It wasn't a KG problem, it was a Management (McHale) problem.

However, after all this, He will probably end up the third best forward of this particular era behind both Duncan and Dirk. Garnett is close to the end and Dirk still has a few good years to continue is resume. It's a good argument between the two, but it's hard not to take Dirk over KG at this point and projecting to any point in the near future.

Originally Posted by Al3xis

Originally Posted by koolbarbone

KG never really changed his approach at the end of the fourth. He just prefers to shoot jumpers. That's his game.

Click to expand...

this is it.

could care less what KG has done or hasn't done in the clutch.

He could have scored 30 a game during his prime, instead he topped out at 24 and never shot more than 6 FT's a game for any one season.

30/13/5 seasons (which for this era would have been ungodly) were at his hands, he didn't go for it. I don't know..not wired that way, I guess...but every single skill needed to do it, he had.

I know I kill the guy often, so this sounds odd....but he has to be one of the most complete players I've seen. I'm talking zero flaws basketball wise. Prime KG was an athletic freak and was 7ft, Defense was a given. Rebounded, could pass. Face up jumper, jump hook, fade-away..it was all there. Comparatively speaking, Shaq was limited to 8ft and within, LeBron's jump-shot remains a flaw (for his 'greatness') Kobe is only 6'6 (if you have 2 complete players, the 7ftr wins out), Duncan was athletically inferior, Dirk can't defend or board to his level. And that said, all have had or are on their way to better careers and legacies.

Basically -- name me one thing KG couldn't do that doesn't revolve around his approach or mentality. One skill. Because I can't name one.

Pierce

Spoiler [+]

1 Title, and 1 Finals MVP

2 Finals apperances

22 K points, 6K rebounds, and 3900 assists. Playoffs, 2700, 800, 500.

Pierce I feel the opposite of KG and Shaq. I think that Paul will have squeezed every ounce of his career into his resume, he doesn't miss a ton of games, he plays hard, he's had a very solid, very underrated career.

Simmons had him in the 54th all time slot. He's a Celtics fan though, so that could be a tad high. But, he still has time to get to 25K points, maybe another playoff run to add some numbers there, he certainly could be 50ish type guy. See what some others think.

0 Top 3 MVP finishes

10x All Star

Projected years left, 2-3

Solid playoff run once again, numbers updated, the big 3 run may or may not live on next season

JD617 wrote:

Paul Pierce is one of those guys who's had an old man game since the time he came into the league. One of the craftiest scorers I've seen. Only had/has average athleticism, but he's a master of getting his shot off with only an inch of space due to his array of pump fakes, jab steps, and spins. Always wants the ball with the game on the line and doesn't shy away from big moments.

He used to have some maturity issues when he was younger, and he and Doc clashed during their first season together in '04-'05. The infamous incident in Indiana in Game 6 of that year and the subsequent trade that fell through that offseason were turning points in his career. The next year, '05-'06, he fully embraced his leadership role and had arguably his best season. Averaged 27, 7, and 5 and was one of the most complete perimeter players in the league. Scored 30+ points in 13 out of 14 games including a couple game-winning shots, a triple double, and a 50-point game on Lebron in that stretch. Played his hardest in '06 and '07 when he could've gone through the motions (*cough* Vince) even though he was stuck with a bunch of idiots like Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Gerald Green and Sebastian Telfair. Then the Ray and KG trades happened, and the rest is history.

Everyone remembers his duel with Lebron in Game 7 in '08, but Game 5 in the best-of-5 first round against Philly in '02 might've been the best game I've seen him play. It was his first playoff series and the biggest game of his career up to that point, and he put 46 on the Sixers on 16 for 25 shooting from the field and 8 for 10 behind the arc. Ended up getting that team within 2 games of the Finals with Antoine Walker and Rodney Rogers as his 2nd and 3rd best players.

Where does he rank all-time? I think he's knocking on the door of the top 50 if not there already, and he still has a couple more decent years left.

Ray

Spoiler [+]

1 Title

2 Finals apperances

23K points, 4850 boards, 4K assists, and the all time leading 3 point shooter, and possibly the greatest shooter ever. Playoff wise, 2300 points, 500 rebounds, just under 400 assists.

Again, to me Ray has gotten everything from his career. He will have nothing left in his tank when he is done, and the way he plays, he could give us 2-3 more solid years. He doesn't have the list of achievements a lot of these other guys have, so he can't really be mentioned as one of the better players all time, but he has been a joy to watch play, plays hard, and has been very underrated his whole time as well next to other great SG's in the league during his era.

Lot of comparisons between him and Reggie, to me, I ride with Ray, but I can hear arguments either way.

0 Top 3 MVP finishes

10x All Star

Projected years left, 3

koolbarbone wrote:

I love Ray, especially since he helped the Cs win a championship. However, his struggles in last year's Finals, save for Game 2, are the biggest reason why the Lakers won.

Give me Ray for the entire season, but for one series, one game, one play, I'll take Reggie every single time.

CP1708 wrote:

Ray Allen

During the season sometime, I believe right around Ray set the all time NBA 3 point record, there were some threads opened about Ray and I was absolutely amazed at how good those threads were. They only made 3-4 pages, but the conversations were eye opening. The main one that caught my eye was the argument that Ray Allen does NOT belong in the HOF.

At first I was stunned at that absurdity. How could someone even be serious about that? Then I continued reading their point. And I'll be damned.......

Gut feeling, yes, he should be in the Hall of Fame. But when looking closer, look at this. For his career, which began in 1996 in one of the best draft classes of all time, Ray has made TWO all NBA teams, one a third team selection, one a second team selection. That second team all NBA? It's fake, so to speak.

Now, hear me out, I like Ray, I like Ray alot, but that second team all NBA is misleading. It was in 2004-05, the year after the Shaq trade and Kobe missed a good 20 something games that year. Kobe still scored 27 a game that year, but missing 20 games hurts you. Kobe, was given third team all NBA. Now my point isn't that Kobe was robbed or any of that garbage, not at all. You miss games, you don't get stuff like that, my point is, at that time, did anyone in the world think that Ray was better than Kobe? Or did Ray belong amongst the elite of the elite at guards, when not a single other season of his career did he qualify as a top 5 guard? This was the basis of that argument a few months back. For as good as Ray Allen is, for as great a shooter, he was NEVER a top flight guard in the league. He never was a legit MVP candidate ever in his career, having one single season as all NBA Third team, and then getting a second team only during the year another elite guard is hurt part of the year does not earn Ray the right to say he was one of the best guards of his era. So now, at the end of his career, he should be a hall of famer?

It was a damn great debate that went on, and as I said, I was stunned that I had never thought of it in that manner. Now, he has been to 10 all star games, so he's not a bum, but how many of those all star selections are truly justified? Alot of those could be name recognition. But over the course of this decade, I can't think of a time where his name is brought up with Shaq, Duncan, Iverson, TMac, Vince, Webber, KG, Kobe, Bron, Durant, true franchise guys that by their presense alone, made you think you had to deal with their teams at some point come playoff time. Ray never gave that vibe.

I certainly think he was underrated a little. His game was/is solid as hell offensively, and he's grown into a better defender than given credit for, but for his entire career, he averages just over 4 rebounds, and 3.5 assists a game.

I was very surprised his totals were that low. He barely hit 5 rebounds a season 1 or 2 times, and he never once hit 5 assists a game, topping out at 4.8. Now you can see why he never really earned top guard honors in the NBA. One other thing you can look at, the Milwaukee Bucks traded him right at the peak of his prime. Age 27, they moved him for an older Gary Payton. I can't really imagine many other 27 year old guards getting moved like that, in a move that didn't net the Bucks anything of true value. That has to say something.

Ray certainly benefited going to Boston late in his career though. It took all of the pressure off of him as being the face of a franchise, he was able to simply blend in and play his role. If became apparent, he is the true definition of a #3 type guy. He blended in perfectly, and hell with Rondo, he might be the #4 guy.

Bottom line though, he's had a very solid career. He's gonne end up in the 24,000 point range, all time leader in 3 pointers, he has a ring, several time all star, great college player, I think he will get into the Hall of Fame. I think his overall game was a little better than Reggie's, but Reggie was a top end guard for almost a decade. Ray was not. So which is/was the better player? I think they will be forever compared and examined. Personnally, I like Ray and his game better than I did Reggie's, but as Kool said perfectly, for a season, I want Ray, but for a series or a game, I want Reggie. To me, that says alot. Off the top of my head, I would think Ray would fit in the top 50 somewhere, but when looking thru his resume, and really breaking it down, now I'm not so sure. 50-55 isn't a bad place to be, but I almost wonder if that is a stretch now. And this from a guy that liked Ray thru his whole career, but never really examined his work, until that thread a few months back, and I was shook to my core. I had no idea.

Interesting note I just remembered, I totally forgot he was drafted by Minny. It could have been KG and Ray for a decade in Minnesota instead of Marbury. It's almost like Ray was destined to play ball with KG at some point. I wish it could have happened while they were both in their prime's, we could have seen a completely different career arc for BOTH of them if that happened.

Duncan

Spoiler [+]

4 Titles, 3 Finals MVP's, 2 MVP's, 9 All NBA, 8 NBA Defensive teams

4 Finals apperances

22K points, 12K rebounds, 3400 assists regular season, in playoffs 4,200 points, 2300 rebounds, and 650 assists.

When Duncan is done, he will have given EVERYTHING he has in his tank. He will walk away with the greatest PF of all time label on him. If he has another year or two left in him, he should finish around 23K, 13K, 3500, and playoff wise, he'll cross the 4K mark after his next game, becoming only the 7th man to do so in NBA history.

A great player, a great person, a great leader, represented his franchise well his entire career. My only "knock" on him was never being able to repeat as a champion, or even make it to the finals in back to back years. 4 rings is still 4 rings, no question, but he was never able to make back to back finals runs. Even the Nets, or the Pistons were able to do that this decade. And of all the best of the best players the game has seen, they all were able to go to back to back finals at minimum, Bird and Wilt being the only ones that didn't repeat as a champions.

5 top 3 MVP finishes

13x All Star

Projected years left, 1-2

Best regular season record in back to back years, started playoffs 10-0, then lost 4 straight. Everyone slurped him for months like he was the same guy, clearly, they don't watch enough old footage of him. No All star, no all NBA, just a solid role guy now, not the face of the team anymore by any means.

CP1708 wrote:

Alright, here is my Duncan angle. Again, I give the man the respect he deserves, he is my all time #1 PF, I rank him in the top 10 all time, but the point of being a good debater is seeing both sides of a subject, since no one else wants to show another view on him, I'll give it a whirl. Not sayin I'm right, or anything like that, just presenting a case.

Duncan

We'll start simple, he joins the Admiral in San An to form one of the best big man duo's of all time. Great rookie season, moves on to the next year. Lockout happens, 50 games, they win title #1. Everyone has said it for years, I'll say it the same here, while a title is a title, this one is "flawed" so to speak. Not an * type of deal, they earned it, sure, but just "flawed" They won a shortened season. Every year there is an example of what happens when you play an extra 3 months or whatever of a season, @#$% happens. If the season was over after 50 games this year, San Antonio might have won this year too.

How crazy was that year? An 8 seed made it to the finals to face the Spurs. The Spurs beat an 8 seed for the title, an 8 seed that was so undersized it was ridiculous. NY had a TON of heart that year, they gave everything they had, but this season to me was suspect so to speak. But, Duncan was solid, he played well, give him his finals MVP.

The next 3 years, we don't see much of the Spurs. Duncan injures an ankle, they go out in the first round the next year. (See what happens when you play an extra 30+ games?

)

The next year they get swept out the playoffs by LA.

The year after they lose in 5 to LA.

Now 2003. Here's where the fun begins. The Spurs get their revenge from being LA's punching bag for 2 years. Only one problem, SA won not because they were better, but because LA was flat out exhausted. 3 straight titles, they had played an extra 65+ playoff games in 3 years, now they were trying for 4, they lost Fox to injury, Horry was struggling tremendously from overuse, LA was down to Shaq and Kobe in their primes, and a bunch of role players on fumes. And yet still, game 5 in San An, Robert Horry has a WIDE open look at a 3, if it goes in, LA wins the game on the road, and would win the series potentially in LA in game 6. The ball goes in....and back out.

It was almost the exact same shot as the Kings shot, only more towards the left bend of the 3 point line. SA that year had David, Parker, Ginobili, S-Jax, Bowen, Steve Smith was on the bench by then. They had a ton of talent, and a 2 man exhausted Laker squad almost stole the series from them. LA had beat them easy 8 out of 9 games, they simply wore down during the 4th year.

Again, LA gets a little extra time off, comes back in 04, beats SA in the playoffs yet again. This time, the dagger final shot went in, Fisher's .4 That year, they had lost David to retirment, and replaced him with Horry, Ron Mercer, and Hedo, along with Bowen, Manu and Parker. Again, a deep deep squad.

05, now that LA has been broken up, the West is open for the Spurs, they get back to the finals, and face the Pistons coming off a finals run the year before, something the Duncan led Spurs have never ever done. As great as Duncan is, he struggled in this series mightily. Duncan was 10-32 in their 2 losses in Detroit. The series was tied 2-2, Detroit was attempting to sweep all 3 in Detroit to try and win a game in San An. In that game, Robert Horry went HAM in the 4th Q, getting 13 points. Duncan had a chance to win the game at the free throw line, but bricked the first, made the second to go to OT. In OT, only 7 points were scored by the Spurs, 5 of them by Horry, including the 3 with 5 seconds left to win it. Horry saved Duncan in that series, and Bill Simmons addressed it in his book.

People forget this ever happened.

In 07, they make the finals again, this time against a terrible Cavs team, and Tony Parker is the finals MVP.

Duncan hasn't really been seen since. They made the WCF in 08, but were beaten again by LA 4 outta 5.

By 2007, Duncan was pretty much done being an elite player. He averaged 20 and 10 that year. His rebounding has always remained elite, but his scoring has dropped a ton. For his career now, he's down to 20.6 a game, for his whole career. His tenure was basically from 98 to 07 as an elite player, in which case he never made it to the finals back to back years, tho he did win 4 titles, all of them I just broke down for you.

He is known as a machine come playoff time, but each of his title runs there was danger of him being knocked off. He was routinely handled by LA, and if not for their breakup, who knows how many titles Duncan would have in that instance? Bottom line, he capitalized on his career, both in timing, and in wise management. The Spurs never once rebuilt around him, they always kept the team stocked full of players. He's ALWAYS had great players around him. When people go the Duncan > Kobe route, Kobe played 3 years of his career with bums on his team, and STILL has made it to 7 finals, while Duncan gets to only 4, and never once had a year in which he didn't have solid players on the team. NEVER.

For PF's, the bottom line is simple, they are all spread out. McHale can't lay claim because of who he played with. But his game was just as great as Duncan's was. KG never had the talent around him, but I argue that he COULD have been just as dominant if he was in San An, and Duncan was in Minny. KG overall had the more talent and bigger skill set, he just didn't apply it the way Duncan did his. Hell, Rasheed Wallace should have been better than Duncan, he just had zero brain. Chris Webber also had the skills to be better, but he was seriously lacking the balls after the timeout incident. Duncan was a perfect marriage at the perfect time to the Spurs. And they got 4 titles, and that's a credit to them. But Duncan, nor the Spurs were as dominant as people love to make it seem. He didn't even reach 10 elite years, his body was already wearing down after 8. His career high in points is 25.5, in his prime, Kobe Bryant in his 15th year hit for 25 points, and people call him old and done. Duncan plays 2 feet from the hoop, Kobe plays 20 feet from the hoop, and played the fewest minutes of his career since 1998. But people want to place Duncan in the top 6-7-8 players of all time?

Duncan's mark was being consistent, being quiet, never ever causing a problem, being humble, staying out of the media's cross hairs. For this he is spoken very highly of, maybe higher than what he truly deserves. Maybe if the Celtics trade for KG 2 years sooner, this discussion would be much more open ended. The Spurs, and Duncan's legacy were lucky once again for that not to happen.

Alright, that's just an example, or just giving it the ol college try. Like I said, I respect the dude, and the team, but it's not all rainbows and butterflies like people make it out to be. Bottom line, he maximized his time in the NBA, the Spurs did a great job keeping the team stocked while he was there, none of the other elite level PF's played strong enough when it mattered to overtake him. To me, Prime KG could have worked out in San An, and possibly been even better, he could have extended that defense to lengths we've never seen, he with Bowen and David by his side.

Letting someone like Manu handle the scoring late in games, it could have been ugly. KG had the higher skill set, he just didn't have the backup to help him like Duncan did.

So you guys wanted just an argument, or an attempt, there ya go.

Click to expand...

Kobe

Spoiler [+]

5 Titles, 2 Finals MVP's, 1 MVP, 10 All NBA teams, 9 NBA Defensive teams

7 Finals appearances

Just under 30K points, 6100 rebounds, 5400 assists regular season, playoffs he sits at just under 5600 points, 1100 rebounds, and 1000 assists.

Quite possibly the second worst playoff season of his career. Detroit 04 being the worst mark on resume, being swept this year could be #2. The fact he missed the shot at the buzzer to get game 1 after blowing a 16 point lead will be brought up for years. But overall, his wins will overlook his losses. If he plays out his 3 year contract and enters the "Reggie Miller" portion of his career where he is the face of the franchise, but no longer the elite level he once knew, he will finish in the ball park of 33-34,000 points, 6500 boards, 5500 assists, and playoff numbers that will be tough to beat, possibly reaching 6,000 points to become the all time leader, and 1200 or so boards, with around the same amount of assists. What may shock people is, if he has a couple decent runs, say 2-3 rounds for the next 2-3 years, he could finish 4th all time in assists in the playoffs behind Magic, Stockton, and Kidd.

Think about that for a minute. 4th all time in playoff assists, for Kobe the ballhog.

That said, if he gets knocked out in the first round the next 3 years, well then nevermind what I just said.

5 Top 3 MVP finishes

14x All Star

Projected years left, 3

Another second round loss, another all NBA season, 4th in MVP vote, All star again, few milestone updates but another wasted year.

CP1708 wrote:

I pray that I survive this.

Kobe

I've said it before but never really gone full on in depth on my belief that Kobe has had essentially 3 careers. Or 3 turning points in his career, however you view it. The Shaq days winning titles. The after Shaq/Colorado days playing 1 on 5, and the Gasol days. 15 years, 3 different "eras" for Kobe.

I'll break this up for DC so that he can read only part of this if he wants too. This part will be the what has happened so far. Later, I'll do a what might have been, or could have been.

* For Deuce

Kobe has some rings. You can put whatever number you want next to it, I don't wish to argue about it. He just has some.

1 MVP, 2 Finals MVP's (it could be argued he should only have 1, it has been argued...many, many times.

) As of this moment, he is 6th all time NBA scoring list. After about 30 games whenever the next season is played, he will move into 5th. If they play a full season, he could reach 30,000 points. Kareem, Karl, MJ, Wilt, and then Kobe will be the only members of that group, until Lebron gets there in about 6 years or so. If he plays 3 more years, he will get to 6,000 assists, as well as 7,000 rebounds. If he plays those 3 more years, and gets to those numbers, he will be lonely, cuz no one else in the NBA will have those numbers on their resume.........until Lebron does in about 6 years.

I have heard some say that Kobe's numbers are rather pedestrian, he only gets 25 a game, 5 boards, 4.5 assists, etc etc. for his career. That is true, those are his numbers. However, take away his first 2 seasons, where he came off the bench, and played 18-20 minutes a night, and his career averages adjust to 27.4, 5.7 boards, and 5.1 assists, over 13 years.

You could argue that his totals would be lower then, yet he'd still be well over 26K points, and 5K and 5K rebounds and assists. He was only getting 20 minutes a night as an 18 year old, he wasn't doin major work back then, his per game numbers take a dramatic hit, his totals however, do not. Almost shockingly, it works the same for his postseason resume. Take away those 2 years of 17-20 minutes in the playoffs, and his last 13 years would look like 27.2, 5.5 rebounds and 5.1 assists.

Freaking identical. 1,100 regular season games, and 200 postseason games, and his numbers are damn near exact. Pressure, road games, game 7's, games in November in Minnesota, all the same to him. Just go out and try to impose his will. And again, this is over the course of his 3 different "eras" of his career.

Overall playoff wise, same thing, currently 4th all time in points just under 5,300, a dozen assists shy of 1,000, and over 1,000 boards. As I mentioned in his bio, he needs about 75 more assists to be 4th all time in NBA playoff history. That is crazy. I don't care about how many games played and all that, one of the biggest "ball hogs" in all of the NBA, and he could end up right beneath Magic, Stockton, and Kidd in all time assists.

It just sounds absurd. Again, if he plays a couple more years, makes it to the second or 3rd round a time or two, plays like 12-15 games for 2-3 years, he'll break the scoring mark crossing 6,000 points, maybe 1,200 rebounds and assists to go with that. Never been done before.

In terms of just Laker history he holds or will hold damn near every record there is, or be in like 2nd place like assists he'll never pass Magic, or rebounds he'll never pass Kareem, but everthing else, he'll be top 2-3 in every category almost. The Lakers. This ain't the Clippers franchise, this is the LA Lakers. Where elite of the elite play. And he could be ahead of them all. Call me crazy, but that says something about the guy. It's like someone being the leader in a dozen categories for the Yankees. These ain't bums he's passin.

I'll go thru the eras if I can get it right.

18 year old Kobe was as raw as it gets. Knees and elbows, skinny as a rail, hell he made Eddie Jones look fat. But he could run, he could shoot, he could certainly jump. At the time, my favorite Laker was Nick Van Exel. Nick was not the most talented player of all time, but he had stones as big as boulders. The kid had no fear and told the world to go @#$% themselves when they said he couldn't do something. He had no fear, and I loved that about the guy. Kobe came in and their first year they faced Utah in the playoffs. End of a close game came, and in these situations, you couldn't go to the "franchise" guy Shaq, because he couldn't shoot free throws. So the Lakers had to have a plan B. Del Harris looked around for who to take the shots, and Kobe said he would do it. He got the ball and he shot it like a Sacramento King in a big game. All air. Somehow, the Lakers got the ball, swung it around, no one took it and went for their own shot, eventually it got kicked back to Kobe, he shot it again, this time he looked like a different Sac King, same result though, all air. Another O rebound, swing it around, STILL no Laker will take the shot, it goes to Kobe again, no hesitation, rises up, and Peja's it again. 3-3, airballs. Game over, Lakers are out of the playoffs. People blamed the hell out of the kid for it, I smiled. Somebody, is a player. Hell, I knew he wasn't ready at 18, Jesus Christ people, come on. No 18 year old gonna drain that @#$%. But the fact that he stepped up and said gimme the ball, well now that counts for somethin. (course, maybe it counted for the kid just liked to shoot no matter what, I dunno.

)

Couple years go by, the kid gets better and better by the game. You can see it in him. He works hard at his craft, he sponges everything from people, he's always tryin to learn stuff. At 20, he cracks the starting lineup finally during the lockout season. He starts at SF for a while, before the Eddie Jones trade. While at SF, he gets 10-11 boards a night for the first 10-11 games or so, showing he could do what his position on the floor required of him. Once Eddie is traded, he moves to where he will finish his career, as a shooter, uh, playing guard.

Turning 21, Phil Jackson joins LA. Shaq is now in his prime and Phil immediately goes to work on Shaq to get more minutes, and better defense out of him. During the all star break in 2000, Kobe goes up to Gary Payton and asks for tips on playing defense. Kobe watches every single thing Gary does, and then tries to apply it. Seemingly overnight, Kobe becomes a much better defender. In a nationally televised Sunday game, Kobe guards Allen Iverson and gives Allen more trouble than just about anybody I ever seen guard Allen. After escaping the WCF vs Portland in which Kobe played a fantastic series, and one you could argue better than anyone else in that series, the Lakers make it back to the finals. But in game 2, in the opening minutes of the game, Kobe lands on Jalen Rose's foot, and tweaks the @#$% out of it. He' done for the game. And he misses the next game. Shaq and Rice finish out game 2 at home, and get the win to go up 2-0, but in Indy in game 3, they get murdered. Kobe and the trainers work around the clock to get him to play game 4, he does. Close game throughout, it gets sent into OT, and early in OT, Shaq fouls out. 21 year old Kobe steps up, and drains 3 straight 20 footers like they were layups. No more airballs. Later Brian Shaw takes a shot, he misses, Kobe rebounds it and puts it back in. 4 straight shots, 8 points, on the road, in OT, in the Finals, with an injured ankle. Series 3-1, effectively it's over. And Kobe has arrived.

01 leads to a little boredom from some guys, Shaq now has his ring, he's content, the Lakers sort of pace themselves thru the season. Kobe gets a little banged up, misses some time, then comes back in later April, LA wins their final 8 of the season, then goes thru the playoffs like they were playing college teams, 15-1. Now they are repeat champs, not just one timers.

02 is much the same, Shaq gets lazier, Kobe keeps working like a mad man, getting better and better and making All NBA teams, getting MVP votes, leading the team when Shaq takes a month off or so. It's apparent that the plans are for Shaq to dominate during his prime, and once he starts to fade, Kobe will take over and handle the heavy lifting. We all saw that, Kobe did not. He felt like he was ready immediately, and that he worked hard enough, he deserved to run the team. Maybe he was right, maybe he was wrong, either way, the two handled it poorly and it festered and festered for 2-3 years. But before every playoffs, they would put it all aside, and go out and win the title, 2002 being no different.

During the 3 peat years, Kobe had gone for 22, 28, and 25 a game, with 6 boards and 5 assists a game. In the playoffs, he was 21 4 and 4 in 2000, 29, 7 and 6 in 01, and 26, 6 and 5 in 02. Even as a second fiddle, he was the best of the best among guards during that time. And only 23.

2003 was the end of the run, and easily Kobe's finest season. Shaq again took a ton of time off, so Phil asked Kobe to do something for them, carry the offensive load. Kobe responded by averaging 30 points, 7 boards, and 6 assists for the season, along with 2 steals, All league Defense, 13 straight games over 35+ points, including 9 straight 40 point games. He was plain stupid at that time. During that year he dropped 55 on an older Mike, 5 triple doubles, a couple other 50 point games, dunked on Yao, set an NBA record for 12 3's in a game vs Ray Allen he just went nuts. Flat out nuts. In the playoffs he was just as good, getting 30 + in 9 out of the 12 games, and averaging 32, 5 and 5. As I have said though, LA was gassed from playing 60 something playoff games the past 3 years, they ran out of gas. Horry's missed 3 took the wind out of their sails, they couldn't get it back.

04 was big however. Malone and Payton were signed to help bring relief to Shaq and Kobe who carried too much of the burden. Things were going to be epic in LA once again. And then Kobe started a new era, the stupid one. He touched a white girl.

Not just any chick though, a pass around chick, a girl that had more DNA samples than Dexter. And it cost us a TON. Kobe handled it poorly, spoke ill of Shaq, came into Phil's office with attitude, he messed up, got caught, and then got defiant about it all. He could have just said I screwed up, I'll fix it, instead he tried to prove how untouchable he was. It was the straw, camel, etc etc. All that said, we made the finals. Then Kobe really got stupid. He tried to prevent Shaq from getting the credit for title #4. They played fractured because of him, and when Malone tweaked his knee, we had no one to handle Rasheed, and we were done. Kobe should have shut the @#$% up, gotten the title, and then moved on with life afterwards, but he didn't want to settle for that.

The era was over, Shaq was moved, and Kobe was re-signed to a huge contract. The Lakers were now his.

The first year started out fine, he ran the team well, they played ok, they were in the mix for the playoffs, but injuries mounted everywhere. Kobe missed games, Butler missed games, Divac was done, Grant was a shell, just never any full time team. One guy would come back, another would get hurt. Just no rythym to the team. Even the coach got "hurt" so to speak and left.

When it was done, LA missed the playoffs for only the 5th time ever. Kobe was now right in the cross hairs. People were ready for his throat. He and Phil made peace, worked it out, Kobe was now entering his prime, he matured slightly maybe, they were ready to try again.

The next year will be talked about for a long time. Kobe went insane. Having the longest offseason of his career, good health, and no good teammates outside of Lamar, Kobe went 1 on 5 almost all year. It meant great numbers for him, but not for the team per say. He willed them into the playoffs, and they almost game planned an upset over the Suns, and were 1 rebound away from doing so, but the bounce didn't go their way.

After another stellar year from Kobe, and another first round loss, Kobe was now getting vocal about how frustrated he was. He was not pissed about being the man, or even losing, he was pissed the front office had been on vacation for 3 years. Many mistakes had been made after the Shaq deal. They did alright for Shaq, Lamar, Butler, Grant, and a #1 isn't bad for a 32 year old. But afterwards, they went stupid. They did nothing, unless you count trading Caron Butler for Kwame Brown. And Kobe was getting tired of it. They had drafted ok, taking Bynum, getting Jordan Farmar to play C and PG, but nothing else was done to help Kobe in his prime. After Kobe vented infamously to get something done, even asking for a trade, that lasted about 6 hours and was great theatre on NT that day, Mitch woke up and actually started to work. He brought back Derek Fisher, he moved Evans and Cook for Trevor Ariza so Kobe didn't have to defend the best wing anymore, and then he made a great move getting Gasol. Suddenly, LA was deep, and talented and good. Kobe got what he wanted all along, talent around him.

2008 was sort of a blur, getting Gasol was great, but it would have been even better had Bynum been there. Bynum had developed nicely until he blew out his knee, and then Trevor also got injured. Kobe made it back to the finals in a classic matchup with Boston, but having Vlad Radmonovic and Luke Walton defend Paul Pierce sort of popped the ballon. Bynum and Ariza would have helped that team out immensly. Do they win? I don't know. It don't matter, but it would have helped a lot.

2009 came, and LA was pissed about losing in 08. They played solid ball for the entire 9 months and earned their 15th overall title, Kobe's (whatever number you wish to give him) He had what he wanted. People had forgotten Colorado (most of them had, some will never let it go no matter how much penis that girl went thru that summer) But Kobe wasn't done, he wanted to repeat, to lay claim that he was every bit the leader any other franchise hall of famer was. They played sloppy for a while, Kobe started to break down a little with nagging injuries, but all year he made game winner after game winner to save their @#$. They played well enough to reach the finals again, against an old foe, Boston yet again. Kobe was BRILLIANT for 6 games, hell before game 7 people asked before the game if he would be MVP of the series win OR lose.

He played way to out of control, way too in the moment, and struggled all game long. Though he didn't shoot well at all, he played good D and rebounded all day until the 4th when he scored 10 of his 23 and got the assist to Ron Artest of all people to seal game 7, he had won title number (whatever) He was a champion again.

So this year, he came in hoping to get another 3 peat. LA started out on fire, 13-2 and then played like girls the rest of the year, but then turned it on right after the all star break as a sort of we're back type reminder. Yet again, got full of themselves, went back to sleep and finished out the season as a 2 seed, but had to struggle just to get to that. Media wondered all year what the hell they were doing, but assumed they would turn it on when the playoffs started........then they lost game 1.

Chris Paul was epic, the Hornets rattled LA's cage, there was something wrong with the entire team. They got by, then matched up with Dallas and Dirk, for the first time in their careers. LA started off fine, in game 1, went back to sleep and Dirk showed what he was all about, Kobe had a chance to win the game with the last shot, but he came up short. In game 3, they had a chance again to get back in the series, once again Dirk showed them who he was. Game 4 was played by actors in Laker unis.

The 3 peat was over, Kobe is now being asked if he is done.

I don't know what happened this year. I know a few things, several theories, probably a lil of all of it. They were gassed like in 03 from all the games the previous 3 years. Something happened within the locker room. Kobe was worn down from age/games/time. Barnes was worn down and never fully healthy. Ron and Fish lost steps. Lamar wasn't as focused as he was before. Phil wasn't fully involved as usual being his final games. And finally, Dallas just outplayed us, and were on the verge of something special. ALL of this added up to a sweep. Not any one thing more than another, ALL of it.

Over Kobe's career, he's had some amazing wins in the playoffs, and some horrible defeats. Final game of 03 was a blowout, final series in 04 was a disaster, final game of 06 was a blowout, final game of 08 was a blowout, and the final game of 11 was a blowout. Common theme I found in most of these. First half in 06, Kobe came out firing, and nobody else did. Game 6 in 08, Kobe hit like 3 3's early in the first quarter, Boston started leaning his way, nobody else showed up. Last game of 2011, Kobe came out gunning in the first half, nobody else did, and they were done. Is he shooting them out of games, I dunno. He's shot like that in many first quarters, and the team plays fine, not sure what goes on during those blowouts. I will never know, just recognize the theme.

For 2012, Kobe has to hope that the extra month and a half of offseason will heal him and his teammates, remind them of 08 when they got beat so they come in refocused and they can give one last run for a title before they are all put out to pasture.

For various reasons, Kobe is disliked by many. Laker fans piss people off, his attitude, cockiness, selfishness, arrogance, the fact he tried to play and even act like Mike, the fact he won early on turned people off, and then Colorado sealed his fate. Afterwards, he went bunker and just worked on his game. Stayed quiet, tried to just get back to ball. What happened was pretty much the most beautiful of individual performances on history, but it appalled those that held old fashion values of peach basket type basketball in their hearts. But to just look at what one guy could do, during a game, every night for 6 months, it was unbelievable. No one will ever be Mike, but that was as close as we might ever see to it. He was stupid great those years, but LA managment wasted it. They didn't do anything to help him out.   I always wished that they would not have overreacted. Trade Shaq, sign Kobe, and go with Kobe, Payton, Butler, Malone, and Grant, with Lamar, Fox and Divac off the bench as well as Rush and Sasha as kids and Walton and George. Add 1 more big man to that team, they could have at least made the playoffs in 05 and given it a shot. But they let Malone walk, traded Payton and Fox, Rush got moved, Walton and George didn't

and they tore it all down. Why? Why do that? Kobe had re-signed, he couldn't dangle them, he was there, why rebuild from scratch, when you really just needed to infuse a little youth, and another big? No need to gut the whole damn roster. Payton, Kobe, Butler, Lamar, Malone as a crunch time 5. How fun could that have been? That team couldn't have has some fun in the 05 playoffs?

It was like Buss's whole plan was to just keep Kobe and do nothing else for 3 years. How the hell did that happen?

Now the non DC version, Kobe could have had several different careers another way. Stay with the Hornets and be built around, maybe he wins a title or two, maybe he bolts via free agency, I dunno. Joins LA the way he did, plays with Shaq, wins the title in 04 giving Shaq 4 Finals MVP's, but they smooth it all out, re-sign both of them, give Malone and Payton a ring each, and then they try to maintain and rebuild around Kobe as Shaq ages. Shaq made it to 2008 in good shape (sort of) By then they could have added a title or two, Kobe would get the majority of credit for those by then, he's not up to 6-7 rings with Shaq, just like Magic and Kareem. Any way you slice it, his career could have gone so many different ways. It's hard to imagine, but they won 3 titles together, and yet their legacy isn't what it should have been. They could have done so much more together. People blame Kobe alot for it, and in a way it is him, but not all him. The guy wanted nothing but to be great at what he did, and win. Shaq wanted to take a month off extra every year, and make it harder on themselves to repeat not getting HC and all that. Kobe worked like a dog, and credit was given to Shaq who sat on his @#$. I work my everyday job, and I work hard (when I'm not on NT that is) and if someone else gets credit for what I do while they have their feet up and eat twinkies all day, I'd be pissed too. I don't know how anyone could see the lazy guys side on that.

Bottom line DC, Kobe has more titles than anyone since Jordan/Pippen/Horry. Whatever credit that needs to be assigned, don't matter, bottom line is, 5 for him, 5 for Fisher, 4 for Duncan, 4 for Shaq, etc etc etc. If he plays up to 18 years all with the LA Lakers, reaches a ton of numbers, still has 5 (or maybe gets to a 6th) reaches the finals 7- (maybe 8 times, gonna get to 33-34,000 points or so and all his other numbers, he will go down as thee greatest LA Laker to ever lace them up. His resume in terms of sheer numbers, all star games, all NBA stuff, stats, longevity, etc etc, he could have a career second only to Kareem in terms of just filling the stat sheet for almost TWO DECADES. People try to discredit the guy, and at times everyone from Grant Hill, to Penny, to Vince, to TMac, to AI, to Lebron to Melo, Wade, Durant whoever were or are all better than Kobe, and after 15 years, he's still getting 25, 5 and 5 a game, and most of them were done after a nice 5-6 years of playing. It's incredible. If he played these 15 years for the Pacers, people would adore this guy, his fans wouldn't be so bad, but because he is a Laker, and Laker fans are insane typically, his hate factor rises to unknown levels. Mark my words.   I didn't like Bird, I didn't like Mike. But when they were gone, I missed them terribly. I didn't realize at the time. I got a second chance when Mike stopped whiffing at curveballs, I made sure to enjoy those 3 years. I don't like Lebron much, but I make sure to enjoy his career, I learned my lesson. You that hate Kobe, you will miss him when he is gone. I promise you you will. He might be a douche bag, but on the court, he was memorable as any.

Right now I think I have him #6, or 7 all time. 3 more years, 1 elite levelish, 1 all star *!! (Ray Allen-Reggie Miller type year) and 1 solid year, his resume will be so stacked, I'll have him 4th all time. If he wins another title, and does it soundly, plus more playoff work, #2-3 all time is not out of the question.

It would be a shame if this got Yuku'd, wouldn't it?

If anybody actually read every word of this, @#$% is wrong with you?

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Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:

On Kobe...

Kobe is one of the most difficult athletes to have a rational discussion about in large part due to the ever present pack of raging Laker fans who lie in wait ready to turn every argument into complete chaos, but in spite of that I'll try anyways.

Nobody can deny his greatness, but debate about his place among the elite still lies in question. Nobody since Micheal has ever displayed such a maniacal desire to compete and claim victory over who dare challenged them, the desire to utterly destroy anything that stood in his path to victory. The man is killer in every sense of the word and you cannot ask any more of him as far as his devotion to his craft (as evidence by the late career transformation to his game) and his willingness to take big shots.

Unfortunately with Kobe's greatest trait, the trait that his admirers love to praise, all of that comes one gigantic qualifier and the reason why, in my opinion I can never put him in my top 10, and why there are players who played in his era who I would rather have. Kobe has a manically desire to compete...on his own terms, Kobe wishes to destroy his challengers...on his own terms and within his greatest strength lies his greatest flaw. Kobe has the tendency to cannibalize his teammates in the pursuit of his own personal glory, the sneering at teammates, the hero shots at the buzzer, the constant need to validate his own greatness to the critics real and imaginary. The Shaq-Kobe duo was bound to implode because simply winning was not enough and would never be, so he sabotaged it, whether consciously or unconsciously. Fortunately the Lakers have been have strong usually has a Pau or a Shaq to save him from himself, but when he doesn't have that; a player who's ability he respects then you are in for a long season of sneering, pouting and cannibalism. Kobe's devotion is to winning in a vaccum but winning in the way that most credits him with glory.

If you have a healthy prime Shaq, Duncan, or Dirk you almost gureteed to win 50 games, I can't say the same about Kobe and thus why I would take those guys over him.

Disclaimer: Please remember that we are splitting hairs, that while I may say that I would rather have Dirk you must remember we are dealing on a scale of greatness, this does not mean I hate Kobe or think he sucks, and neither does it mean I think the two players I mentioned previously are some significant amount better. The way I look at basketball and the way I think it should be played simply dictates to me that I would rather have Dirk, this does not mean I think there is some gigantic difference between the two..IMO the difference is minimal...

On comparisons to Micheal....

They are not valid, no matter how many championship he wins, no matter how many other awards an accolades he gets, It's blasphemy it's unholy so please stop. Micheal while similar to Kobe in demeanor, attitude, competitiveness, skill set, style of play but Micheal was simply better, in every measurable way. There is no plausible argument to make that Kobe is Micheal's equal argument, Micheal operates in a rarefied air with the likes of Russel, Wilt, Magic, Oscar, Bird...but Kobe? no. no. no. Not now not ever, so please let it go.

Dirk

Spoiler [+]

1 Title, 1 Finals MVP, 1 MVP 4 All NBA teams

2 Finals apperances

Just over 24K points, 8700 boards, 2800 assists, playoff wise, 3200+ points, 15th all time, shade under 1300 rebounds, and 300+ assists.

Dirk's resume will make the biggest jump this year. I would say within the top 25 all time, maybe even top 20. Elite across the board, regular season and postseason

Another 3-4 years and his numbers will get stupid.

11x All Star

Projected years left, 4-5

Very poor year after what Dirk did in 2011. Did not win a single playoff game after winning the title, barely moved the needle on any numbers, no all nba or awards, did make another All Star team however.

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:

Dirk to me has, in the playoffs for the past three years, reached a level of basketball nirvana. He never succumbs to the hero disease that have been plaguing superstars since the end of the Jordan era. Jordan becuase of the era he played in, his style of basketball and the mythology that proceeded him created this hero culture in basketball where we feel that the superstar has to take every shot, if he passes or makes the right play we view of him as less of player Dirk even succumbed to these pressures and that more than anything was the cause of the golden state collapse. I think in the process of getting older you loose the need to constantly prove yourself to critics, after 10 years in the league I think he realized he was no longer the skinny German kid trying to proove he belonged but a perennial all star and one of the greatest players ever.

He always makes that right play never forces up a bad shot, if you double him he will kill you with a cross court pass, he makes the game so much easier for himself and his teammates ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. I just think this run he just had has been perfection in terms of the way I look at basketball, and I will always favor the guy who makes the right play regardless of the situation or the amount of ego and glory on the line and Dirk Nowitski is the epitome of that.

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Bron

Spoiler [+]

1 Title, 1 Finals MVP

3 MVP's, 5 All NBA teams, 3 all Defensive teams

3 Finals appearances

19K points, 4900 rebounds, 4700 assists, playoff totals include just under 3300 points, 1000 rebounds, 775 assists

Numbers wise, he's going to reach heights that will dwarf almost anybody in the game provided he never gets hurt. But after seemingly answering questions about his big game performances against the Bulls and Celtics this year, they are back again after his finals performance. 10 career finals games, 0 25 point games. This is not allowed for someone proclaimed the best in the game.

8x All Star

Projected years left, 8

By far, the biggest jump in 2012. Title, MVP, Finals MVP, unGodly numbers/performances, ALL NBA, All D, All Star, he did everything in 2012. Next year he will hit the 20,000 point club in his 10th year, rest of his numbers are getting bigger and bigger.

Al3xis wrote:

here it goes

LeBron

i. The Basketball Player

Most ready and productive HS to NBA player out of the gate in history. Top 2 athletic force of nature I've seen since '93 next to Shaq (for this -- that's how far I'll go back with my own two eyes and living in that moment, not DVD's or ESPN Classic, can watch old game tapes all day but if you didn't experience THAT Time, you miss something.). Best open court player I've seen. Best skip passer I've ever seen. Best passing player 6'8 over I've seen. (again since '93 and this might the most advantageous thing he has at 6'8 260, not just running people over. Think of the flick of the wrist pass to Chalmers cross-court late in Game 2, nobody else makes that as effortlessly.). The flaws: Shooting, post-game, facilitator or scorer? and early on questions about defense. Defense was corrected early, some credit to coaching staffs he was under and also accepting that responsibility. When locked in on that end, he also turns into one of the top 2-3 help defenders as a wing player in the 'rover' role that I've seen next to Pippen.

Shooting flaw is still there. and it's odd. The mechanics of it come and go. He is a streaky shooter, but it's in the mechanics. The backside stays level and upright he probably hits at a 37-38% clip from 3. The legs start to go out, the fade away comes and it probably drops to the 29-30% range, you split the difference and it's right at the 33% mark he's been at. It will be interesting as time goes on, does losing some of his athleticism make it easier to stay centered and in good form as he is confined or does it do the opposite and create more reliance on 'arm shooting' with the rest of the body going different directions?

The post game. Flawed, but exists. Does he have a go to move? No. Does a double team get sent at him almost every damn time? Yes. People need to stop with the he 'doesn't have a post game' and reconfigure that statement to 'doesn't have post moves'. It's the part of being 6'8 260 that gives him one by default. He turns his left shoulder on the block against a small forward and he's right at the rim for a layup. My biggest issue with the lack of one is just simply because he doesn't do it enough. I loved Spoelstra working him off cross-screens this finals, why that didn't or doesn't happen more, I don't know..but I hope it does into the future. He passes as well out of those double teams as anyone. JVG brought up the point one night, why double? Make him make a move to beat you. The moves may not be there, but if a guy is getting doubled consistently and creating good offense, something exists. It's just not done enough.

Facilitator or scorer? I still don't know. Sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and that's him at his best. Other times he sits back too much. Kobe used and still does do the same 'feeling things out' but at his core everyone knew he was a scorer and at some point in the course of the game you're going to get it. At times, it just never comes for LeBron and he'll just go the other route all the way through (Game 4). But I'll say this, When Mo Williams went down last year in January/February and LeBron moved to PG and the Cavs went 11-0 with wins over LA (2x) Orlando, OKC..during that stretch he went with 31, 7 and 10 . For me, it was the pinnacle for LeBron as a regular season player. When a team has had to have been so overly reliant on him, we've got to see the best he has to offer in mulitiple facets of the game. The issue with this is....when you hit a certain point and against the best competition, it's like running into a brick wall. It's why he had to join another star (or 2). Jordan had experienced this, Kobe did as well. They got their stars, LeBron sought them out. It's a touchy subject. But, Now, playing next to Wade this is his biggest question mark..it trumps the jump shot. How does he achieve greatness at the highest level-- while still appeasing the masses statistically-- when playing next to someone like Wade? A jack of all trades faces an issue when you need to simplify..what is he at his core? Probably both a facilitator and scorer. The criticism about not having spots on the floor where he knows he's comfortable and can go make a play are fair. I think some are on the way (right block, turning over right shoulder and taking that FT line jumper being one & using the cross-screens) it may just take Spoelstra or Riley insisting on these spots for him.

The post-season. Some immense highs and lows. One thing that was interesting looking back is that we were 3 minutes away from getting a LeBron/Wade showdown in the ECF's in 2006. Would have added another layer in their storyline/relationship. Instead Cavs can't close Game 6 and drop Game 7. But back to the point... Game 5 in Detroit, then Game 5 in Boston. 45 on the road against Pierce in G7 in 08 then 9 turnovers and Knicks chants in G6 in '10. Maybe the epitome of it all so far is the performances against Chicago and Boston this year followed up by the Finals performance. Clutch or not clutch? Again, there have been a good amount of examples both ways. Maybe what we all are looking for in him is just consistency for better or worse? Defining his legacy would become easier, we just don't have a solid answer yet.

ii. The Decision.

A) The cop-out. I said the night it happened, he can't be Jordan (I never thought he could anyway, but this sealed it). There was and still a sense of him limiting his own ceiling. The only way that goes away is if he plays every ECF and Finals to the level he was against Boston & Chicago. It's still the fact that it is Miami and that is Wade's city. If he gets Dwyane to follow him to Cleveland or team up in NY, does the same feeling of Pippen/Robin exist? Likely to an extent from some but not like this..which leads to..

B) The Double-Standard. And this is more geared towards Wade. The man who won 4 playoff games in 4 years and people were then ready to anoint with 2 more wins this week. Wade plays like crap against the best regular season win team and LeBron plays great -- Heat win in 5. LeBron plays like crap, Wade plays great vs Dallas-- Heat lose in 6. Wade is in a great situation. All credit/no blame position. But the bottom line, LeBron has to be good to great for Miami to win it all. He is the better player, in the Finals, He was not. 'Robin' will not win champions for the Heat. And he has to have those great performances to validate a title in a lot of peoples minds. Fair or unfair.

C) The aftermath. A year removed, year one is in the books. Nothing but a championship every year is a huge failure given the situation he and Wade/Bosh decided on. Where it goes from here? Anyone's guess. I don't believe the limit on his greatness or legacy is as severe as we thought last July. Things are decided on the court and everything was being erased in those 2 Eastern series and then it got derailed quickly. His legacy can be enhanced or damaged either way. Being on Miami just crossed off the GOAT discussion with LeBron. Which leads me to..

iii. Social Media and the News cycle.

This is not exclusive to LeBron, but it does play into his legacy. As much as any athlete to date. I genuinely feel sorry for the next transcendent NBA player who even has a hint of arrogance. You have to have the contrived answers that Durant and Rose offer now. Have to. We enjoy arrogance, but not until you win. Kobe has said some off the wall +%%* to reporters the past year or two, but it's humorous and almost looked at in a playful manner at this point. That's just Kobe now. The competitor, not the dickhead. Because he won. Could you imagine the stuff that he and Iverson got into 7-8 years ago coming to light now with twitter and how instant info and access is available? Heck, we were one dumb reporter away from that Rasard Lewis stuff actually becoming a story. But, basically..here is a guy who grew up bouncing around homes in a single parent home with a part-time mother who emerged in the spot light at 16 and not once has encountered off court trouble. And this is who we turn into a villain? Arrogance, lack of humility, poor choices of words will be damning to any athlete from here on out. It has happened to LeBron and I'm not sure how he salvages his image. Can't turn into the guy who says all the right things, can't ride the fence and can't go all out dark side. There really is only one way -- to win. But for anyone to reach or attain GOAT status they are going to have to be so far removed from this current era it's crazy to think about. You still have huge MJ fans, you have huge Kobe fans..you have past players/coaches who speak on things to either prop up or tear down. It'd have to take another 50 years before all those people wash away before we can put another player on that pedestal. But at that point, who knows how the media handles a player like that?

And Do not get me wrong, he is responsible here for the heights it can and has reached. Stay off twitter. Nobody should know the names of the people in your entourage. They're your entourage. We shouldn't know your mom on a first name basis. It's not his fault entirely, but at some point you just have to say...look here is a check every month..let me handle my business with people who are actually educated and trained in these areas...and I'll see you in July.

iv. He's still 26.

So, I can't make anywhere near a final conclusion on what he is. I would say he is probably already on the back end of the Top 20 players of all time. But the clock is ticking and the hour glass got flipped upside down when they hit the floor this year. This was, to me, the first team he was on that was capable of winning a championship and he and his team failed. No way around it. There is (plenty of) time left, he and his teammates will need health..and maybe they get Pat Riley? But he has to win, you at least have to knock down that barrier before we start talking about Finals MVP's and who is what on a team. That stuff becomes secondary and subjective, the titles are there forever. There are still areas of his game to work on but probably as much as anything there is some soul-searching to do this summer, even more than last. Last year it was figuring out what was the best situation (debatable choice legacy wise, likely the correct choice basketball wise) Now, He has to figure: What works, when it works and when it's needed. The all time greats a) recognize it. b) execute it.

From 2008-2010 as a Cav we saw his absolute peak as an individual both athletically and as a basketball player and that greatness got him 2 MVP's. The team greatness? That's still in front of him to go after.

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CP1708 wrote:

So I just sat thru the Simmons podcast. It was funny to hear them touch on a bunch of stuff I have brought up over the year.

So, I'll see if I can get thru my Lebron post here while it's fresh in my head.

Lebron James

I have zero chance of nailing the mans career as well as Allen did. But I can offer a perspective viewing it from the other side so to speak.

I like watching Lebron James play basketball. It's fun. Any time I turn on his game, I could witness historical feats, which is a huge reason I love sports.

Off the court don't bother me as much as some people. He's not perfect, this doesn't shock me at all. He's not a bad guy by any means, he's merely a 2000 and beyond mega athlete in the internet age. He gets analysed every step he takes. Some of the stuff he does irks me, but I understand that not all of it is his fault. A lot of it has to do with his fans and backers and how they make me feel about him, which is unfair to him. If not for his fans, I probably wouldn't mind Lebron at all. I may never like the guy, but I can certainly respect him.

Sadly, over the past few years a line has been drawn in the sand as to whether you are a fan of Lebron, or not a fan of Lebron. We are all at fault for that, but arguing sports is something we all love to do, hence us being in this very thread right now. Early on in my time here on NT, I became known for "hating" Lebron. That's my fault, I should have spoken better and made my points more clear when debating him. One thing that I learned to do was stop going in open view of everybody and asking tough questions, or making a negative comment, and instead I started asking certain fans of his questions thru PM's, or emails, or other means to simply discuss a portion of something, without all the hate and backlash and quoting and bickering and all that. I was trying to actually learn something from them, and also show them where it was I was coming from. I think, slowly, I have made some headway towards that end. I'll probably always be known as a Lebron hater, even if it is not true.

I was asked once last year why I pick on Lebron so much. My answer was simple, just long winded.

I was told the man was great. Elite, of the elite. So in turn, I expected great, elite of the elite work. I didn't think that was unfair, I just wanted what was told to me. It is possible, that maybe Lebron spoiled me into thinking every game was gonna be like game 5 in Detroit. Maybe that isn't fair to him, but I'm a fan, that's what I want to see. Theatre, greatness, the MJ factor. Final shot stuff. I'm talkin the final shot in Utah stuff, not just random game final shot stuff. Over the years, I was noticing small things. He looked the same in 08 as he did in 07 to me. In 09, he looked like 08. In 10, same as 09, etc etc. I don't mean his face, or his weight or any of that, his game. I watched Mike evolve. Change, do so many things, all over the court. I watched Kobe grow, change, evolve on any spot on the floor. I had example after example of shots they made over and over. When I watched Lebron, I couldn't find those. I could see him dunk all the time, get to the rim, all the time, start hitting 3's more often, absolutely. But I wasn't seeing the same shot 15 times over the course of multiple games. I was looking for them, but not seeing them. When I first brought this up, I did it wrong. I made it sound like the guy never touched a ball during his free time. I never meant to say that. But I have seen video of diff players and their workouts, and see them work on a shot so much, that in a game it's second nature to them. Picture Dirk taking that step back one legged @#$% in an empty gym over and over and over. The vid itself isn't important, the fact I then saw him take, and make that shot 95 times in the playoffs, IS important. It's a shot I have seen him work on, I know he works on it, and he makes it in games. When I watch Lebron, his shots were off the dribble shots, that were basically standing in a spot and then rising. It wasn't a spot on the floor, or a go to move he was using. The same thing can be said for the post game I was clamoring for. He just completed his 8th year in the league, and I am waiting to see certain things still. That disapoints me, as a fan. Because if and when those things come, then I will see true greatness, and it will be unstoppable. But he should understand, time isn't forever. At some point, he won't be able to use his God given gifts the way he once knew.

One thing I have noticed, and more so because of this year, that man can pass the basketball. And I mean, brilliantly. I am convinced it is his single best ability. After Magic, he is the best passer above 6-5 I know of. Even his jump passes, passes that maybe he shouldn't be making, hit the person right in the hands. He flicks a wrist, and the ball goes 40 feet and hits the target. It is amazing. In Cleveland he made many, but not enough talent to really show it or showcase it for him, in Miami with Wade/Bosh, and some shooters, it showed BIG time.

I thought after the Boston and Chicago series his legacy was going to get real clear. I didn't see Dallas being a team that could slow his legacy down. Then some weird stuff went down. Now I am left with almost the same questions I have asked many seasons before. Can he win it all? Will he win it all? Will he join Barkley, Malone, Ewing, etc? Is this why he chose Miami to join Wade? Does he know that he doesn't have it within him to win something? We honestly don't know what the heck happened now. Maybe he was just worn down from playing 4,000 minutes this year almost. Too soon obviously for that, he has time still, but he does not IMO have 8-9-10 years to dominate like some believe. His window is still open, wide open even, but it closes quick, he needs to get thru.

He took a ton of heat for not playing as well in the Finals, while Wade went nuts. I never really worried about that. If they won that series, Bron would have a title, playing well or not. I wouldn't care. Title is a title. Yes, someone may have shined brighter, great, but that takes away from no one. I simply look at Jason Kidd suddenly being called the second best PG of all time now, when 2 months ago he was BARELY a top 5 in most peoples eyes. Winning changes all. Bron gets a title, First, second, third bananna, I don't care, people would see it, process it, and apply it to him. I look at it this way, if he went out and dropped 40+ for 6 straight games, and the Heat still lost, or he went out and dropped 17 and the Heat won, which would he rather have? You all know the answer. Get the ring. All that matters. 6-24, or 9-27, who gives a @#$%, get the ring. One bad game, one bad series don't mean nothin over the course of a 9 month season.

Simmons mentioned a perfect example. MJ lost in 95 after coming back. People told him he was done, was too old, wasn't good enough anymore. Simmons mentioned that MJ flat out disappeared for the summer, and came back with a completely revamped post game. And MURDERED the league in 96. I hope, Lebron goes in a cave all summer, works non stop, and comes out next year with the biggest F you season we have seen since 96. If he does that, then I can safely say, yes, imo, he is now the best in the game. Until that happens, I can not in good faith pass that torch. He has to take it from me. I know I am in the minority these days, and I am fine by that, but these are the things that I personally require from the elite of the elite.

He will get accolades. MVP's, all NBA, this award, that award, etc etc, but just playin with numbers, if he stays healthy, plays to 35 or so, he could get past 32,000 points, and saaaaaaay, 8,000 rebounds, and 8,000 assists maybe?

Somewhere in there. Maybe close too. And playoff wise, possibly, 6,000 points (not done before, or yet at least) and maybe he could get to 1,500 boards and assists. If that does indeed happen.........

Post 2012 Title

Originally Posted by Al3xis

I finally found some free-time to do this.

First I'll go with what I wrote last year:

Most ready and productive HS to NBA player out of the gate in history. Top 2 athletic force of nature I've seen since '93 next to Shaq (for this -- that's how far I'll go back with my own two eyes and living in that moment, not DVD's or ESPN Classic, can watch old game tapes all day but if you didn't experience THAT Time, you miss something.). Best open court player I've seen. Best skip passer I've ever seen. Best passing player 6'8 over I've seen. (again since '93 and this might the most advantageous thing he has at 6'8 260, not just running people over. Think of the flick of the wrist pass to Chalmers cross-court late in Game 2, nobody else makes that as effortlessly.). The flaws: Shooting, post-game, facilitator or scorer? and early on questions about defense. Defense was corrected early, some credit to coaching staffs he was under and also accepting that responsibility. When locked in on that end, he also turns into one of the top 2-3 help defenders as a wing player in the 'rover' role that I've seen next to Pippen.

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The prodigy stuff obviously remains forever. Still the best passer over 6'8 I've seen. Still the best open-court player I've ever seen (I mean, !*++..we all watch them play -how times have the Heat not converted/got fouled on the break since LeBron joined? It's not many)

Now, onto more important topics. First, the post-game.

Last year: The post game. Flawed, but exists. Does he have a go to move? No. Does a double team get sent at him almost every damn time? Yes. People need to stop with the he 'doesn't have a post game' and reconfigure that statement to 'doesn't have post moves'. It's the part of being 6'8 260 that gives him one by default. He turns his left shoulder on the block against a small forward and he's right at the rim for a layup. My biggest issue with the lack of one is just simply because he doesn't do it enough. I loved Spoelstra working him off cross-screens this finals, why that didn't or doesn't happen more, I don't know..but I hope it does into the future. He passes as well out of those double teams as anyone. JVG brought up the point one night, why double? Make him make a move to beat you. The moves may not be there, but if a guy is getting doubled consistently and creating good offense, something exists. It's just not done enough.

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It was obvious on Christmas Day he was trying to enter the season with a new focus - not new moves, a new focus. As noted, Miami ran those cross screens to get him touches last season and last post-season, problem is it was not frequent enough. I'd put most of that on LeBron and some on Spoelstra. This year was different, at least when it mattered most. He torched OKC out of the post, he dominated the series when needed from the post. I don't think anyone (including myself) thought he would dominate the 2012 NBA Finals from the post at this time last year. The best part is his new-found patience. His footwork is still choppy and he doesn't possess great touch around the rim (never has, good thing for the rest of the world that god didn't give him that, too.). Last year and prior years he was still effective in the post when he went down there because he commanded double teams and could generate good offense for others. Now, he's patient enough to either wait for a double team or he will go score himself. This will add years onto his career offensively. I really believe if he develops this further this summer that defending him will truly be pick your poison. Small forward's can't guard him on the block and it leads to doubles which opens up one of his best two assets - passing. PF's can't stick with him when he faces up, facing up leads to one of his best two assets - getting a head of steam and attacking the rim. One thing, though - LeBron let the post game come and go - does he get bored being down there? Was Spoelstra hiding something until it mattered most? Who knows, but it sure is nice for both to know that's in their back pocket when it's needed now.

I didn't talk about his defense last year but how good is he? Yes, he'll get beat on occasion guarding scorers, is there anyone who doesn't? Let me say - If this entire post comes across as me being a fanboy, sorry but at least this season he did everything anyone could ask of him.. I can't find very many examples where LeBron is out of position on defense or not giving full effort. It is just rare and his ability to switch between 1 and 4's seamlessly during games or even possessions is why Miami can play so small and still dominate defensively compared to the rest of the league. I feel like if LeBron has 3-4 more peak athletic years that we're going to have re-evaluate where he stands amongst the all-time greats because of his defense. As Bill Simmons put it, watching him in the Finals was like watching a rich-man's Larry Bird. Why? because he's all world defense. He went heads up with Melo, Pierce and KD this spring/summer and he at the very least made them work, if not struggle, while mostly not needing help defenders.

Shooting, Last year: Shooting flaw is still there. and it's odd. The mechanics of it come and go. He is a streaky shooter, but it's in the mechanics. The backside stays level and upright he probably hits at a 37-38% clip from 3. The legs start to go out, the fade away comes and it probably drops to the 29-30% range, you split the difference and it's right at the 33% mark he's been at. It will be interesting as time goes on, does losing some of his athleticism make it easier to stay centered and in good form as he is confined or does it do the opposite and create more reliance on 'arm shooting' with the rest of the body going different directions?

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This year: The post game certainly lessens the importance here. Still streaky and that might just be how it's going to go. At least from the 3 point line. Now, if he could ever work on hitting a consistent 15 foot jumper there really is no way to guard him. Short of resting my legs if I'm LeBron - my priorities are to continue to improve the post game and secondly - 14-18 foot jump shot. I do still think it can be interesting if a loss of explosion results in a more condensed and consistent form as time goes on.

Last year, facilitator or scorer: Facilitator or scorer? I still don't know. Sometimes you get the best of both worlds, and that's him at his best. Other times he sits back too much. Kobe used and still does do the same 'feeling things out' but at his core everyone knew he was a scorer and at some point in the course of the game you're going to get it. At times, it just never comes for LeBron and he'll just go the other route all the way through (Game 4). But I'll say this, When Mo Williams went down last year in January/February and LeBron moved to PG and the Cavs went 11-0 with wins over LA (2x) Orlando, OKC..during that stretch he went with 31, 7 and 10 . For me, it was the pinnacle for LeBron as a regular season player. When a team has had to have been so overly reliant on him, we've got to see the best he has to offer in mulitiple facets of the game. The issue with this is....when you hit a certain point and against the best competition, it's like running into a brick wall. It's why he had to join another star (or 2). Jordan had experienced this, Kobe did as well. They got their stars, LeBron sought them out. It's a touchy subject. But, Now, playing next to Wade this is his biggest question mark..it trumps the jump shot. How does he achieve greatness at the highest level-- while still appeasing the masses statistically-- when playing next to someone like Wade? A jack of all trades faces an issue when you need to simplify..what is he at his core? Probably both a facilitator and scorer. The criticism about not having spots on the floor where he knows he's comfortable and can go make a play are fair. I think some are on the way (right block, turning over right shoulder and taking that FT line jumper being one & using the cross-screens) it may just take Spoelstra or Riley insisting on these spots for him.

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This year: Did he walk this tightrope beautifully or not in the playoffs? You could pencil him in for 25+ this post-season and still know he would facilitate if that's what things dictated. What we did see when Bosh went out was a shift to essentially playing PF on offense. His assists numbers this year did drop and in the post-season as well. To me, a couple reasons; he adjusted to being a screener with Wade pick and rolls and playing more on the block. I'd actually say he shaded himself to more of a scorer than passer and it benefited Miami since, well, he's just the best option. The 25 points plus in X amount of games was the streak that got attention - the one that didn't: Since the start of the Indiana series he never took less than 19 shots in a game. That was equally important. The Heat were overly reliant this year on LeBron, I feel like Spoelstra would be the first to admit as such. However, when he absolutely needed it (okay maybe not Boston G6, more on that later) he did get major contributions from a supporting cast - to Wade to Bosh to Miller to Battier. That was the difference between playing in Miami and playing in Cleveland. In Cleveland he'd never have someone join up with him in G4 on the road in Indiana like Wade did. You want to win championships, that's needed. I don't care who you are. It just is. In the end, I think he did answer this question and it's the best thing for his career: He is a scorer, he is a passer. He will make the play he feels is the right one. Maybe it was always this way, it just took winning to stop the questioning of it.

The post-season, last year: The post-season. Some immense highs and lows. One thing that was interesting looking back is that we were 3 minutes away from getting a LeBron/Wade showdown in the ECF's in 2006. Would have added another layer in their storyline/relationship. Instead Cavs can't close Game 6 and drop Game 7. But back to the point... Game 5 in Detroit, then Game 5 in Boston. 45 on the road against Pierce in G7 in 08 then 9 turnovers and Knicks chants in G6 in '10. Maybe the epitome of it all so far is the performances against Chicago and Boston this year followed up by the Finals performance. Clutch or not clutch? Again, there have been a good amount of examples both ways. Maybe what we all are looking for in him is just consistency for better or worse? Defining his legacy would become easier, we just don't have a solid answer yet.

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Well, we got the consistency from Game 1 vs New York to Game 5 vs OKC. We can say LeBron's more of a very good to great playoff performer than a bad one now, right? (the numbers and W's/L's now say yes) We know the lows: G5 at home in '10. The 2011 Finals are the two biggest sore spots and can't be erased. But damn it if he didn't do his best to try to overshadow them with great performances. He ended an era of Boston Celtic basketball, flat out. Game 6, ready to advance behind that crowd. Bosh is rusty, Wade is more off than on, KG looks 5 years younger and Rondo is dominating. Only one man stood in the way. And stood he did. Like a $@%****** brick wall. This may have been the start of something. At some point this playoffs it felt like LeBron got in some game situations and it felt like he was not going to lose, didn't it? I'm not saying it never felt like Miami wasn't going to lose. But on some nights, LeBron was not. It was, "Get on my back, I got this - we're fine." stretch of basketball he put together and somewhere in G3 against OKC to me it was over. He wasn't losing, and there was nothing to be done about it. Was he really a different guy with a different mind-set? Who knows. Only he does. All I know is I felt he hit a new point in his career.

This is a new inclusion to this write up this year:

The man is a physical freak. I honest to god believe that Miami asked as much of him this season as any Cav team did in his 7 years in Cleveland. It just doesn't appear that way because Cleveland lost and Miami won. But, the minutes, the defensive assignments - and the fact he was in the midst of a I-better-$@%******-win-at-all-costs-season. He never stopped, he kept coming and coming. If Boston was 5 years younger, Miami doesn't win that series. But they aren't and LeBron could stay on the court and take advantage of their 2nd unit (really, he had to). Going back to the job he does on defense - he does while most nights taking on the best perimeter player while operating the Heat offense on the other side of the ball. It's a lot to ask. Is he going to run out sooner than expected? A shortened season with a late finish now plus Olympics? The guy is going to be playing into late May/likely June for a while now. Is he human? Guess we'll find out in 4-5 years.

Last year:

ii. The Decision.

A) The cop-out. I said the night it happened, he can't be Jordan (I never thought he could anyway, but this sealed it). There was and still a sense of him limiting his own ceiling. The only way that goes away is if he plays every ECF and Finals to the level he was against Boston & Chicago. It's still the fact that it is Miami and that is Wade's city. If he gets Dwyane to follow him to Cleveland or team up in NY, does the same feeling of Pippen/Robin exist? Likely to an extent from some but not like this..which leads to..

B) The Double-Standard. And this is more geared towards Wade. The man who won 4 playoff games in 4 years and people were then ready to anoint with 2 more wins this week. Wade plays like crap against the best regular season win team and LeBron plays great -- Heat win in 5. LeBron plays like crap, Wade plays great vs Dallas-- Heat lose in 6. Wade is in a great situation. All credit/no blame position. But the bottom line, LeBron has to be good to great for Miami to win it all. He is the better player, in the Finals, He was not. 'Robin' will not win champions for the Heat. And he has to have those great performances to validate a title in a lot of peoples minds. Fair or unfair.

C) The aftermath. A year removed, year one is in the books. Nothing but a championship every year is a huge failure given the situation he and Wade/Bosh decided on. Where it goes from here? Anyone's guess. I don't believe the limit on his greatness or legacy is as severe as we thought last July. Things are decided on the court and everything was being erased in those 2 Eastern series and then it got derailed quickly. His legacy can be enhanced or damaged either way. Being on Miami just crossed off the GOAT discussion with LeBron.

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This year:

A) It's still an eyesore for LeBron's career. Always will be. Did he really limit his ceiling? I guess the answer would still be yes, but how much? He was the most dominant player on a NBA title team, I mean there was no question left about whose team that was. He did play that elite level to remove all doubt. I think this changed maybe significantly this year and another year of the same won't make the Decision an after thought, but it won't be the first thing you think of when you think of LeBron, will it?

B) Still true.

C) I still think so on both accounts. Titles or bust and the on the court stuff will always prevail. I just don't think that cap on his 'legacy' is screwed on as tight as the reaction to "....to South Beach." led us all to think.

Can he be the GOAT? No, I don't think so. I've looked at the numbers, I've watched the games - Michael Jordan was unreal. LeBron needed an earlier start on the winning to make a legit case for it, I think. I will say this, I believe the media and access to information is resulting in more knowledgeable people with a platform that side more with the thinking of Mark Cuban than Skip Bayless (substance matters, being a fake shrink does not).

Leading to this:

Social Media: Last year. This is not exclusive to LeBron, but it does play into his legacy. As much as any athlete to date. I genuinely feel sorry for the next transcendent NBA player who even has a hint of arrogance. You have to have the contrived answers that Durant and Rose offer now. Have to. We enjoy arrogance, but not until you win. Kobe has said some off the wall +%%* to reporters the past year or two, but it's humorous and almost looked at in a playful manner at this point. That's just Kobe now. The competitor, not the dickhead. Because he won. Could you imagine the stuff that he and Iverson got into 7-8 years ago coming to light now with twitter and how instant info and access is available? Heck, we were one dumb reporter away from that Rasard Lewis stuff actually becoming a story. But, basically..here is a guy who grew up bouncing around homes in a single parent home with a part-time mother who emerged in the spot light at 16 and not once has encountered off court trouble. And this is who we turn into a villain? Arrogance, lack of humility, poor choices of words will be damning to any athlete from here on out. It has happened to LeBron and I'm not sure how he salvages his image. Can't turn into the guy who says all the right things, can't ride the fence and can't go all out dark side. There really is only one way -- to win. But for anyone to reach or attain GOAT status they are going to have to be so far removed from this current era it's crazy to think about. You still have huge MJ fans, you have huge Kobe fans..you have past players/coaches who speak on things to either prop up or tear down. It'd have to take another 50 years before all those people wash away before we can put another player on that pedestal. But at that point, who knows how the media handles a player like that?

And Do not get me wrong, he is responsible here for the heights it can and has reached. Stay off twitter. Nobody should know the names of the people in your entourage. They're your entourage. We shouldn't know your mom on a first name basis. It's not his fault entirely, but at some point you just have to say...look here is a check every month..let me handle my business with people who are actually educated and trained in these areas...and I'll see you in July.

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This year: LeBron still has an image to repair. He could not be a defiant douche this week after winning - or at any point this year. I think he carried himself with a good amount of humility (given where he was 18 months ago) and said the right things but people will still dislike him. That's life, everyone has an opinion and now everyone has a platform to tell you what it is. But back to people with information: there are a lot of them in a lot of high places. I can't tell you how many times I've gone on ESPN or Grantland or SI or wherever and wonder when ______ was hired or thinking 'wow, that's a great article.' from someone I am familiar with. We also now have things like Synergy Sports and places like NBA Playbook. Could the pendulum of social media actually swing in LeBron's favor as we leave the Jordan era and more and more people embrace LeBron the basketball player? The praise for his performance this year is effusive and when the shock jocks (Bayless, Rome, Doyel) are left with nothing, that's where we are.

I think LeBron was himself this year and when he says that, I believe him. I thought his celebration was fitting. He didn't cry nor did he tell anyone to $!#% off. He danced and he smiled. I thought it was genuine, since that's always been who he is.

I don't know if he shut people off this season or playoffs, we at least know we didn't hear about mom or his friends cooking up some elaborate schemes this year. We do know that he didn't watch TV, post on twitter, etc. He read books, watched DVD's - whatever works. I don't care about that but it does seems he's at peace with where he is now and where he's headed on and off the court.

Last year:

iv. He's still 26.

So, I can't make anywhere near a final conclusion on what he is. I would say he is probably already on the back end of the Top 20 players of all time. But the clock is ticking and the hour glass got flipped upside down when they hit the floor this year. This was, to me, the first team he was on that was capable of winning a championship and he and his team failed. No way around it. There is (plenty of) time left, he and his teammates will need health..and maybe they get Pat Riley? But he has to win, you at least have to knock down that barrier before we start talking about Finals MVP's and who is what on a team. That stuff becomes secondary and subjective, the titles are there forever. There are still areas of his game to work on but probably as much as anything there is some soul-searching to do this summer, even more than last. Last year it was figuring out what was the best situation (debatable choice legacy wise, likely the correct choice basketball wise) Now, He has to figure: What works, when it works and when it's needed. The all time greats a) recognize it. b) execute it.

From 2008-2010 as a Cav we saw his absolute peak as an individual both athletically and as a basketball player and that greatness got him 2 MVP's. The team greatness? That's still in front of him to go after.

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I think I take back that last part. I saw his absolute peak this post-season and I was glad I could witness it. He figured out what works, when it works and when it's needed. He recognized it, he executed it. The individual greatness and team greatness finally coincided.

Lastly, sometimes when guys win the first championship it feels like they're going to a party. First they pay their cover charge (Charles Barkely and Karl Malone are the two bitter bouncers at the door) and poke their head in to see if they recognize anyone to go talk to and hope they fit in. They hope they actually do belong. Some stick, other pass out drunk on the yard and forget to wake up (Dirk?) or get in a fight they lose (Walton). But, Magic and Larry are playing each other on the beer pong table for hours. Oscar Robertson is bad mouthing everyone else to the girls he's talking to. MJ is in a VIP room with Kobe walking past trying to get a look out of the corner of his eye. Russell, Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem are arguing amongst each other. Wilt is..do I really have to tell you where Wilt is?

LeBron was an hour late but came barreling in, carrying a keg over his head. As if to say, 'Sorry I was late, but the party is here.' Personally, I hope it doesn't end anytime soon.

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Wade

Spoiler [+]

2 Title, 1 Finals MVP, 2 All NBA teams

3 Finals appearances

Just under 15K points, 3000 rebounds, 3700 assists, postseason play, 2775 points, 600 boards, tick under 600 assists

Elite level player, lot of good numbers, but will be 30 next season. Not many have the collection of number in 12 career finals games showing what he can do on the biggest of the big stages, but will need another 5 years of elite play to put his resume up next to others. If he does that, he cracks the top 25, currently, he's in the high 30's, early 40's imo. But certainly time to move up, ala Dirk.

8x All Star

Projected years left, 3-4

Adds his 2nd ring, a few numbers, ALL Star, but not much in terms of numerical improvement. His mileage is rising and he was clearly carried by Lebron in 2012. No matter, he has 2 rings now, his legacy is fairly secure.

PMatic wrote:

Dwyane Wade's legacy interests me a lot.

Great all around talent, NBA champion, Olympian and convinced LeBron to come to Miami among other things. In 11 Finals games, he's averaging 33 PPG and 8 RPG. Currently at the peak of his prime, with maybe another year or two left.

Kind of underrated in a sense.

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Kidd

Spoiler [+]

1 Title, 5 All NBA teams, 4 all Defensive teams

3 Finals appearances

Just under 17K points, 8200 rebounds, 11K+ assists, and in playoffs, just under 2K points, 1K rebounds, and 3rd all time with 1200+ assists.

Also 3rd all time in 3's made. Just incredible all around numbers. Only Magic is seein these type numbers.

I don't think the title bumps Kidd up much though. He earned it, he certainly deserved it, but to me this is like Payton getting his late in his career. He might move up a notch or two, but he doesn't jump 10-15 other players or anything like that. Certainly one of the top 5 PG's in the game though, but that list is getting packed tighter and tighter, he may not hold onto a top 5 nomination very much longer. If he can play another year or 2, his numbers will be just plain disgusting. LOCK HOF'er.

10x All Star

Projected years left, 1-2

JapanAir21 wrote:

I want to talk about Kidd too.

10 years from now, we might look back on this Playoff run and say, "Ehh, Kidd was just along for the ride like Gary Payton was."

No, definitely not. Kidd didn't have the points this year to make him stand out, and he didn't have double-digit dimes every game, but what he did was what every single person in the world, including most Mavericks fans, myself included, though he lost. His biggest value to this team was as a defender. Turning back the clock, Kidd faced superstars ranging from Roy, Russell Westbrook, Kobe, Durant, Wade, and even LeBron. Did he ever shut down these guys for complete games? No, not really, but he got all of these guys out of their groove at some time in the game.

During this run, he wouldn't give up. He wouldn't ever admit defeat and let his man go off. Now I won't get blinded by the championship and say he was the primary defender on Kobe, Westbrook, Durant, Wade and Lebron ALL the time. He wasn't, it was a team effort with help from DeShawn Stevenson and Shawn Marion. But, with that said, when it mattered most, Kidd was getting the picks, he was the guy staying in front of some of the fastest guys in the L, he was staying in front of one of the strongest men in the L like LeBron, he was doing all he could in crunch time to make sure that these guys couldn't get off.

His perseverance is what allowed us to come back so many games. I don't know the number exactly, but the Mavericks came back from double-digit deficits countless times during these Playoffs. It was a run that was magical, one-of-a-kind, and how did they all begin? With stops on the defensive end. We tightened up, switched to the zone, did whatever we could, and Jason Kidd was right there at the forefront to lead us. You would have told me prior to the Playoffs that Jason Kidd was our best crunch-time defender I would've giggled, and the rest of the basketball world would have called you an idiot. But you know what? In the 2011 NBA Playoffs? He sure as hell did.

With all this said, you have to approach the question again of where does he belong? Among all the other players in the League, I find it hard to rank PGs unless their in their own class. Magic is obviously the one exception, but it's hard for me personally to put a label on John Stockton and say where he ranks all-time compared to other greats like Hakeem, Kareem, or Kobe. Obviously below all of them, but it's just a way to show how hard it is to compare PGs to every other position. In regards to Jason Kidd and where he ranks among other PGs? It's really hard for me to put him above guys like Stockton, O, and Isiah, but he's right there. He has the leadership of Isiah Thomas. He has the versatility of the Big O, and he has the longevity of John Stockton. The NBA will lose a great talent when this man retires. Kidd never had the scoring capacity that other great PGs had, and that's what will keep him from surpassing O and Isiah, but, I think being right there with them, in a 3A, 3B, 3C kind of ranking, isn't out of the question at all. Jason Kidd is THE role model of those who can persevere. Jason Kidd was one of the first players to really succeed after having microfracture surgery.

He's an old man, but this just proves that an old dog can learn new tricks (Or in this case, use tricks once lost).

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23ska909red02 wrote:

Gotta chime in on Kidd,

As far as ranking goes, for me... FOR ME... it's Magic, then Kidd. Yes, I'm someone who uses the championships of central figures as a huge credit to that individual. So the fact that Stockton and Nash don't have one and now Kidd does, yes, that means something to me (actually, Nash hasn't even BEEN in the Finals, but that's for another discussion).

Big O? Yes, era counts for me, too. The game is harder today.

Isiah? This one just boils down to personal preference. No, Kidd is nowhere near the scorer Isiah was, and Kidd has never been a prolific scorer... BUT THAT'S WHAT I WANT FROM MY PG. That's EXACTLY what I want! I want a PG who thinks PASS FIRST... and if that isn't gonna work... FIND ANOTHER PASS... and if that isn't gonna work... SCORE.

Jason Kidd is the best 'basketball quarterback' since Magic, in my opinion. Magic WAS a better scorer, obviously, but that's why he COLLECTED championships (well, that and the fact that he played w/ 2 other Finals MVPs, and Kidd just now played w/ his 1st).

AND HOW DID YOU NOT MENTION TRIPLE DOUBLES?! People throwing out Big O and Magic in this Kidd discussion... and there are your 3 all time triple double leaders. Playoffs? It's Magic on top and Kidd in 2nd.

My main thing about having Magic and Kidd as 1-2 on my list is how they did what they did, which was completely opposite.

- Magic was fun, but highly competitive. He KNEW basketball, and loved to keep everyone on the team involved. He was flashy, smiling, competitive, and knew how to put the ball in the basket; very versatile.

- Kidd, on the other hand, isn't versatile at all. If he's on the floor, he's at the 1. Not the 2 or 3 or 3, like Magic sometimes did. He's the PG, period. There's a famous quote "Do one thing, and do it well", and that's Kidd. He's not flashy; he has thrown some crazy passes in his day, but I'd bet everything that if we were in his head, we'd see that the reason he threw that pass would be because he honestly thought that was the best thing to do right then, like he didn't even think about it. He's very calm and poised, hardly ever frowning or smiling. He knows basketball; he sees passing lanes to HIT on the offensive end and EXPLOIT on the defensive end better than anyone since Magic (and better than Magic on the defensive end), and he knows the trends of both his players and his defenders better than anyone (and again, better than Magic when it comes to tracking stats of his opponents).

Even in the Olympics, when he was on the court, it was all business. He'd throw a few lobs to people that need them, but for the most part, it was all business now, fun and celebration when we're done; no, not done with the game, but the tournament.

And speaking of the Olympics, he never lost an international game as a professional. Not in the Olympics, not in qualifying tournaments, never; 46-0.

1999 Qualifying tourney for the 2000 Syndney gamess: 10-0

2000 Olympics: 8-0

2002 World Championship: injured

2003 FIBA qualifying tourney for 2004 Athens games: 10-0

2004 Olympics: injured

2007 FIBA Americas Championship: 10-0

2008 Olympics: 8-0

He has 3 gold medals from qualifying tournaments, and 2 gold from Olympics.

Osh Kosh Bosh wrote:

Whoooooo now let the overrating of Jason Kidd's career begin.

I kind always felt Jason Kidd was always slightly overrated but now that he won his chip you guys are taking it to a whole new level. Jason Kidd is a great defensive player, all timer and you usual someone players who's elite skills are defense and rebounding often go under appreciated but for some reason not in Kidd's case.

I find it blasphemous to suggest Jason Kidd is better than John Stockton because for as good of a passer Kidd was he simply was not good enough to offsett his terrible shooting. Shooting from the point guard position is so integral in basketball it opens up the whole court, the numbers bear this out...unless you are a 6'8 PG who can see over the defense like magic bad shooting PG= Bad offense.

Go look it up: when Jason Kidd was the main cogg of a team that team never had an above average offense no matter how good of a "QB" he was his shooting still dragged down the offense and he was never that enough of a passer in the half court to offset that. John Stockton while not as good defensively is still great but on offense no question you would be crazy not to take prime Stockton over Ason Kidd.

If you have John Stockton on you team you are almost guaranteed to have a good offense, put Magic on the court with any five stiffs and he will get you to the playoffs with a great offense, put Nash on the court with any one and watch em get buckets. You can't say the same for Kidd and thus why for me he stays in the, Payton, Nash catagory rather than the Stockton, Magic.

Last note, this will be a work in progress, I will update whenever I have time, (as you can see I didn't finish yet) bring stats into their slots, random notes I find, quotes from NT members, etc etc. Like I said, I welcome ideas, either post them up or PM me if you have a suggestion. This may be the only NBA we have for a while, so try to enjoy it while we can.

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CP1708 · Jun 10, 2011

CP reminded me of this thread and thought I'd put a bow on LeBron's CLE return:

I can't change anyone's opinion. I'm the original Nick Wright & still would place Jordan #1..for now. And you can still talk me into Kareem placing ahead. But there is going to be a growing case. Jordan had 11 full years in Chicago (only 18 games in '86, only 17 in '95) - and two with Washington. LeBron just finished a full year 15. The opinion is largely going to turn generational, sub 30 year olds will view it differently than those older. Whatever, it's going to be those two at the end of it and lines will be drawn.

But, I have a hard time seeing anyone have him outside the Top 4 grouping of MJ, Kareem, Russell and now LeBron. The totality of his career already is a lot to overlook even if you wanted to. Guys like Magic and Bird are being lapped and there are more of the (similar) narratives to poke into Wilt than Bron at this point.

He just finished year 15 posting 28/9/9 on 54% in all 82 games led the league in minutes per game. Throw in 22 more playoff games at 34/9/9 on 54%. I'm of the opinion that making the Finals this year was his second greatest accomplishment behind winning the title in '16. That team flat out stunk.

The East is weak, but he's been tested most seasons. 2011 down 1-0 in Chicago without home court. 2012 down 2-1 in Indiana, down 8 at halftime in G4 without Bosh. 2012 down 3-2 in Boston. 2013 Pacers series went 7. '14 was the weakest Heat team but never a test, '15 down 2-1 in Chicago buzzer beater to win G4...'16 and '17 went untouched and this year got pushed further than any time before in Rnd 1 and vs Boston. In the end, making 8 straight finals is absurd and it hasn't exactly been a cakewalk some years.

This is doing it year after year, and his durability and commitment to being the best athlete in the world might be the most impressive aspect of him now:

Most consecutive seasons out of opening round regardless of format:
LeBron 13
Russell 13
Shaq 12
Pippen 11
Magic 10
Bird 9
Kobe 8
Duncan 8
Kareem 8
Wilt 7
Jordan 6
West 5

Forget the Finals, this is just consecutive seasons out of Rnd 2 since expansion in '84:
LeBron 8
Magic & Kareem 6
Jordan & Pippen 5
Bird 5
Kobe & Shaq 3
Duncan & Malone 3

His regular season total numbers currently are:
7th All Time in Points
59th in rebounds
11th in assists
16th in steals
114th in blocks
54th in games played
18th in minutes played
2nd in average PER

If you just gave him 5 years at 75 games with 24/6/6 with a steal and a block a game - and said that's it, career is over (personally think he's playing until he's 40 and leaving the door open to play with his son - and he has no sign of slowing down now)

He'd rank:
1st All Time in Points (and first ever at 40K)
32nd in rebounds
3rd in assists
7th in steals
53rd in blocks
3rd in games played
2nd in minutes played (given 34ish a game)

I would say 5 years left of his career is a very modest projection and you see where the totals end up. For him, in my mind a game of 30/8/8 on 50% or better always feels like his A game. Since he came into the league it's only been done 256 times, by anyone. He holds 72 of those 256. Only has occurred 41 times in the post-season. He has 20 of those 41.

And I don't even really care about the numbers. His smarts, his athleticism and impact on a basketball game is of course what is most important - along with a skill level that has continued to grow and evolve over the years. There is no situation he hasn't seen and no longer any spot in which you can make him feel uncomfortable.

His total playoff numbers:
1st in points
6th in rebounds
3rd in assists
1st in steals
15th in blocks
1st in minutes played
4th in games

This is where he's lapping people. He's about a post-season and a half away from doubling Larry Bird's post-season points total. Nobody ever hit 6K, he's 100 shy away of 7K and probably tops 9K when it's done. He'll be in 1st in points, games, minutes played, steals. 2nd in assists, 3rd or 4th in rebounds.

He's 7th in Finals games played, 2nd in points and assists.

He already is 12x All NBA 1st team (most ever). The 4 MVP's will feel low, but whatever. Voter fatigue and no, he doesn't go full speed all year long. Other guys are great, too.

The 3-6 mark is what will continue to be held against him. I always had 4 in my mind of what *felt* right. If he stays in Cleveland he won't win another, and that's fine and maybe he's okay with just staying home. But I doubt that and I'm guessing his move this summer will put him in a place where he can contend and try to get to 4 or 5. But the one in Cleveland is what he needed, for narrative and by all accounts for himself. That one felt different and made his career, for the most part, complete. They're not all created equal, a certain player is finding that out now.

But the Finals losses to some, is a stain. We like to prop up a team accomplishment but conveniently leave out the competent coaches (Phil, Riley, Pop) and front offices that have gone hand in hand with 4, 5, 6 time title winners. I think he had that in Miami but chose the route of unfinished business. We correlate 'help' with teammates and not other surrounding aspects. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I'll be waiting a while before the Cavs doing anything ever again (he does not run that team and there are countless examples of this despite the narrative). And the Heat, as well run as I think they are, are stuck in basketball purgatory. Right where they were before he arrived. The best thing he picked up in Miami was a greater commitment to his body and conditioning and it's paying off. He took his greatest advantage and pushed it further. It is worth watching how many of his peers can play 15+ high level seasons, is this is a changing of the times or is he truly a genetic freak? Probably somewhere in the middle.

And hey, some of the critiques are his fault! he had his pick two times around, and now a 3rd. He picked Kevin Love. He had the best offensive player he's played with decide that he'd rather be elsewhere. Sometimes he flexes power for roster spots of old friends. He doesn't have time to spend watching young players grow and he turns his career into a year by year grind - there is no big picture view these teams can take - it's a gift and a curse. I get why some still roll their eyes at him, I do it too. The cast on the hand after G4, some of the things he says. I get it. Some still don't understand why he doesn't barrel to the rim and score every play. Despite the limitations of the human body and how basketball actually works (guess what, there's a lot of help behind those Steph Curry switches), I even understand in some instances. He’s such an overbearing force - that offensive systems don’t truly exist, he is the system. And that is almost always the better option (actually yes, always). But does it knock some guys out of rhythm, kill some confidence? I’m sure, but he’s too good to not accommodate. It’s why Kyrie was such a good fit for him, he could go get his own and it was the right blend. Anyway, in the big picture, with what he's done.. If you're arguing him outside of the Top 3 or 4 at this point and that the pace he's at, we're probably just going to agree to disagree. And if the failing of his career is being 2% less than Michael Jordan, I think he's done okay.

I don't know what he does now. LA doesn't feel quite good enough, even with Paul George. Houston is a hired gun move that has the window of 1, 2 years before that roster craps out. I don't like it. Boston can't and should not happen. Staying should not happen. Miami screwed their cap 20x over and a return does not seem feasible. I hope it's Philly. Philly has the most underrated and overlooked pro basketball history and unlike the Lakers, he's instantly far and away thee guy. There is no shadow - nothing he does in LA will be good enough, Philly has a fairly rich history that he can take to another level. There's young talent and assets still to work with - and a perfect landing spot for a GM who he actually likes (David Griffin). It keeps him East, and creates a rivalry that could be incredible with Boston. It makes the most sense to me.

So, my opinion of his game has not changed, amazingly he avoided the route of being Darvin Ham. He's just a little wiser, a little more skilled and a little bit older (he's for the most part superman, but there are limits that show every now and then with age).

In the end - he's great, it's still okay and warranted to nitpick some aspects. You won't be able to deny his body of work. There are chapters still unwritten, as a fan, that's the most exciting and rewarding part of the journey. He's squeezing everything out of it.
....

darth dnzy · Jun 10, 2011

--Good idea to appreciate the closing era CP.
--Dont be surprised if it becomes a Kobe vs Bron thread though.

darth dnzy · Jun 10, 2011

--Good idea to appreciate the closing era CP.
--Dont be surprised if it becomes a Kobe vs Bron thread though.

night marcher01 · Jun 10, 2011

Originally Posted by DARTH DNZY

--Good idea to appreciate the closing era CP.
--Dont be surprised if it becomes a Kobe vs Bron Jordan thread though.

Fixed.

night marcher01 · Jun 10, 2011

Originally Posted by DARTH DNZY

--Good idea to appreciate the closing era CP.
--Dont be surprised if it becomes a Kobe vs Bron Jordan thread though.

Fixed.

addict4sneakers · Jun 10, 2011

Dirk should be discussed as the 2nd best PF of all time behind Duncan.

consider:

25 ppg and 10 rbg career playoff average
11 straight playoff appearances
regular season MVP award
2006 finals appearance
this historic run he is having this playoff series

and IF they win the finals this year, you have to talk about him doing what Malone couldn't do

addict4sneakers · Jun 10, 2011

Dirk should be discussed as the 2nd best PF of all time behind Duncan.

consider:

25 ppg and 10 rbg career playoff average
11 straight playoff appearances
regular season MVP award
2006 finals appearance
this historic run he is having this playoff series

and IF they win the finals this year, you have to talk about him doing what Malone couldn't do

airmaxpenny1 · Jun 10, 2011

Originally Posted by Addict4Sneakers

Dirk should be discussed as the 2nd best PF of all time behind Duncan.

consider:

25 ppg and 10 rbg career playoff average
11 straight playoff appearances
regular season MVP award
2006 finals appearance
this historic run he is having this playoff series

and IF they win the finals this year, you have to talk about him doing what Malone couldn't do

He is undoubtedly squarely in the Barkley/Malone group and I'd put him ahead if they win this year. I know people hate it when anyone who played from before 1980 gets brought up but I think him and Bob Pettit are pretty close in career impact/stats. Regardless Dirk is top 20 now and there should be no question he is ahead of Garnett for 2nd best PF of this generation.

airmaxpenny1 · Jun 10, 2011

Originally Posted by Addict4Sneakers

Dirk should be discussed as the 2nd best PF of all time behind Duncan.

consider:

25 ppg and 10 rbg career playoff average
11 straight playoff appearances
regular season MVP award
2006 finals appearance
this historic run he is having this playoff series

and IF they win the finals this year, you have to talk about him doing what Malone couldn't do

He is undoubtedly squarely in the Barkley/Malone group and I'd put him ahead if they win this year. I know people hate it when anyone who played from before 1980 gets brought up but I think him and Bob Pettit are pretty close in career impact/stats. Regardless Dirk is top 20 now and there should be no question he is ahead of Garnett for 2nd best PF of this generation.

CP1708 · Jun 10, 2011

Just going off the Simmons Pyramid from last year (after he edited it again) he had KG at 22, and Dirk at 38. You think he jumps all the way into the top 20 all time if he finishes this?

There are a few ways to look at and debate a career, JD and I have talked about a couple instances before, you can do the longevity route, player A plays 17 years and player B 13. Or you can do peak years. A 4-5 year stretch where a player was simply incredible, but couldn't sustain it for a long time. Think T-Mac, or Vince.

KG and Dirk, I would have to go back and look, but wasn't KG's "prime" higher, whereas Dirk may be finishing off his career a little bit better than KG in his later years? Something we'll need to look at as we move along.

Me personally, I have Dirk in my imaginary top 25, I'll have to sit down after the finals and put him squarely somewhere and see how it looks.

CP1708 · Jun 10, 2011

Just going off the Simmons Pyramid from last year (after he edited it again) he had KG at 22, and Dirk at 38. You think he jumps all the way into the top 20 all time if he finishes this?

There are a few ways to look at and debate a career, JD and I have talked about a couple instances before, you can do the longevity route, player A plays 17 years and player B 13. Or you can do peak years. A 4-5 year stretch where a player was simply incredible, but couldn't sustain it for a long time. Think T-Mac, or Vince.

KG and Dirk, I would have to go back and look, but wasn't KG's "prime" higher, whereas Dirk may be finishing off his career a little bit better than KG in his later years? Something we'll need to look at as we move along.

Me personally, I have Dirk in my imaginary top 25, I'll have to sit down after the finals and put him squarely somewhere and see how it looks.

noblekane · Jun 10, 2011

dirk is kinda hard to place. hes not the traditional type of PF.

noblekane · Jun 10, 2011

dirk is kinda hard to place. hes not the traditional type of PF.

freeze · Jun 10, 2011

I love this idea.

personally, I feel kobe should be in that top 5, somewhere. I dont want to argue whom to drop off lol, but imo, being the 'air' apparent has to count for some. And then his numbers are ridiculous. Not to mention each year he's taking somebody's spot on some list. In my eyes, the 2 best players to ever play the game were mj and kb, just because they understood not only the physics of thesport, how to score at will, but also the mental aspects, of when to score and when to defer. Not to mention, in their primes, they were unguardable. Now of course, that's not to be biased, as many of the top players have some of these attributes as well, but those 2 pretty much had the full scale covered in what they could do. You knew every time they touched the court your team was in trouble. You knew didnt matter how many you went up, 5 minutes left in the 4th, you could still lose the game. These two students of the game brought a determination, a hunger for blood that had not been seen before, or since so far. Of course no man is perfect, and sure, both have made their share of silly decisions on the court, but from the perspective of a perimeter, wing player, it doesnt get much more perfect than these guys.

freeze · Jun 10, 2011

I love this idea.

personally, I feel kobe should be in that top 5, somewhere. I dont want to argue whom to drop off lol, but imo, being the 'air' apparent has to count for some. And then his numbers are ridiculous. Not to mention each year he's taking somebody's spot on some list. In my eyes, the 2 best players to ever play the game were mj and kb, just because they understood not only the physics of thesport, how to score at will, but also the mental aspects, of when to score and when to defer. Not to mention, in their primes, they were unguardable. Now of course, that's not to be biased, as many of the top players have some of these attributes as well, but those 2 pretty much had the full scale covered in what they could do. You knew every time they touched the court your team was in trouble. You knew didnt matter how many you went up, 5 minutes left in the 4th, you could still lose the game. These two students of the game brought a determination, a hunger for blood that had not been seen before, or since so far. Of course no man is perfect, and sure, both have made their share of silly decisions on the court, but from the perspective of a perimeter, wing player, it doesnt get much more perfect than these guys.

T0INE · Jun 10, 2011

Great thread idea.

This thread is going to be chaos though when it comes to ranking LeBron and Wade.

T0INE · Jun 10, 2011

Great thread idea.

This thread is going to be chaos though when it comes to ranking LeBron and Wade.

JD617 · Jun 10, 2011

Edit: Never mind, I'm gonna hold off on that for now.

JD617 · Jun 10, 2011

Edit: Never mind, I'm gonna hold off on that for now.

dt43 · Jun 10, 2011

Dirk, Wade, Lebron, and Kidds legacies still hang in the balance, you couldn't wait a couple days for the Finals to be over?

dt43 · Jun 10, 2011

Dirk, Wade, Lebron, and Kidds legacies still hang in the balance, you couldn't wait a couple days for the Finals to be over?

CP1708 · Jun 10, 2011

DT43 wrote:
Dirk, Wade, Lebron, and Kidds legacies still hang in the balance, you couldn't wait a couple days for the Finals to be over?
This has been working in the background for a few weeks bro, I know what I'm doing. 12 seconds after the series is over, 18 "legacy" type threads will open at once, and it would be everywhere. This thread, is EVERYONE, all encompassed, into one thread. One discussion but with multiple elite players to be discussed.

Hence you can clearly see what I wrote in the OP, we will get to them in the next few days, but feel free to talk about them now as you please. I just won't be putting up their final totals for their careers until the next 2 games are done.

There are plenty of other players you can talk about til then.

CP1708 · Jun 10, 2011

DT43 wrote:
Dirk, Wade, Lebron, and Kidds legacies still hang in the balance, you couldn't wait a couple days for the Finals to be over?
This has been working in the background for a few weeks bro, I know what I'm doing. 12 seconds after the series is over, 18 "legacy" type threads will open at once, and it would be everywhere. This thread, is EVERYONE, all encompassed, into one thread. One discussion but with multiple elite players to be discussed.

Hence you can clearly see what I wrote in the OP, we will get to them in the next few days, but feel free to talk about them now as you please. I just won't be putting up their final totals for their careers until the next 2 games are done.

There are plenty of other players you can talk about til then.

Moheezy · Jun 10, 2011

Great thread, you overlooked KG's defensive player of the year award in 07-08. Might want to fix that.

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