NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

I agree whole heartedly on KG, hence me saying he left some in the tank.  There have been whispers about KG coming thru in the clutch MANY times over his career.  He simply goes ghost on offense in 4th quarters.  He still plays Defense, he still hustles, he still rebounds, sets screens, he's engaged in the game, but when the ball hits his hands, he can't move it along quick enough.  It's why he worked out perfectly with Pierce and Ray, he could do work for 3 quarters, then let them do it in the 4th. 

He gets credit for all that he's done, but his knock is EASILY his 4th quarter performances.  Can you say the same about Dirk? 

When we get to Dirk's total updated resume, he will have some blemishes on his resume, everybody does (except Mike) so it will all come down to how each person personally values timing of performance.  If you want to weight someone's greatness based on some fantastic December basketball games vs bottom feeding teams, sure, feel free, but when splitting hairs with heavyweights, it comes down to playoff time.  Winning and losing time.  At least it does for me, and I'm pretty sure many others will agree. 

You don't have to put every single game, every single series on a guy.  Chris Paul didn't get out of the first round this year, but not a soul on Earth would place blame on him for that one would they?  The years that Minny got beat and KG went down giving everything he had but just not enough help, that's fine, credit can at least be given to him for his performance.  But when KG doesn't perform his best, especially late in games, then questions need to be asked.
Bron played incredible vs Orlando, and yet still lost.  I give him credit for the way HE played, the only argument against him in that series was that his teammates didn't show up, even though they had for 6 months prior to that.  It became a debate about how he played, and if they did or didn't show up, did he help them, or hurt them doin big numbers, things like that.  The fact he went awol the next year vs Boston left more questions.  He redeemed himself vs Boston and Chicago this year, and now 2 weeks after that, the questions are back again.  (We may see some answers in the next couple days) 

You have to step back and view the entire picture when looking at how to slot their careers.  I really don't get why people don't get that.  Some years a guy isn't fully healthy, other years you just run into a hot team, bad matchup, etc etc.  If you break them down on a case by case basis you'll get a good look at how a player carried their franchise.(s)
 
Him playing and beating everybody 1-on-1 doesn't translate 100% to him being an unstoppable offensive force. Why are we so sure that KG could have been a great offensive player? What if he just didn't have it in him to be a great offensive player? You think that possibility exists?

Him not being clutch his a knock on his record, correct. The same way Dirk's defensive issues are a knock on his record. Everyone has some minor weakness (some more minor/major than others) so you are right, it is all coming down to nitpicking.

I still don't fault him for playing with teams that weren't so great in an era where the Western Conference was ultra competitive. Not one inch of my mind points a partial finger at what KG didn't do to make that happen. To say that he should have taken his teams to the playoffs routinely IS blaming him whether you want to admit to it or not. And I am here to say, no. That isn't right. That doesn't make sense, and it isn't fair at all.
 
Him playing and beating everybody 1-on-1 doesn't translate 100% to him being an unstoppable offensive force. Why are we so sure that KG could have been a great offensive player? What if he just didn't have it in him to be a great offensive player? You think that possibility exists?

Him not being clutch his a knock on his record, correct. The same way Dirk's defensive issues are a knock on his record. Everyone has some minor weakness (some more minor/major than others) so you are right, it is all coming down to nitpicking.

I still don't fault him for playing with teams that weren't so great in an era where the Western Conference was ultra competitive. Not one inch of my mind points a partial finger at what KG didn't do to make that happen. To say that he should have taken his teams to the playoffs routinely IS blaming him whether you want to admit to it or not. And I am here to say, no. That isn't right. That doesn't make sense, and it isn't fair at all.
 
Duncan and Kobe resumes updated. 

The Finals four, I will take care of next week after the series is over.  Then we can start really slotting guys and going from there. 

I'll try to get some Shaq stuff done as well, as I didn't expect him to retire this year honestly, so I'll try to get some stuff in here for him. 
 
Duncan and Kobe resumes updated. 

The Finals four, I will take care of next week after the series is over.  Then we can start really slotting guys and going from there. 

I'll try to get some Shaq stuff done as well, as I didn't expect him to retire this year honestly, so I'll try to get some stuff in here for him. 
 
Offensively KG could do everything that's why it is a knock though.  He could shoot from 3 if needed, post game handles, quickness etc. It was all there offensively.  And your talking about this supreme Western Conference but look at the 2005-2006 NBA season when the T-Wolves missed the playoffs.

1. Spurs- The Spurs
2. Phoenix- without Amar'e
3. Denver- Melo/AI
4. Dallas- Dirk
5. Memphis- Pau's Grizzlies
6. Clippers- Brand/Cassell
7. Lakers- Kobe and Bums
8. Kings- Bibby/Artest

I wouldn't call those teams overwhelming juggernauts of talent, it was kind of a down year.  Where did the T-Wolves finish? Second worst in the Western Conference.  I can't think of any top 30 player ever who in his prime could only muster 14th place in a conference despite the #%*% sandwich of talent KG played with by then.  By its why I hate KG's "I'ma soldier" charade he puts on,  If your a %%!+#@* soldier go grab the ball and score.  This isn't Roy Hibbert offensively this is a guy who is 7 feet and could post, drive and shoot.  KG acts like a thug but is the scardest dude when it comes down to it.  He's the playground bully, bigger than everyone else and oushes around little guys but when someon cmparable calls his number he never shows face.  Overall, in Minnesota dude did absolutely nothing except for one year.  That was solely cause his team sucked.  But its not like they were worse than the Barkely 76ers for instance and those teams routeinyl got past the first round.  So when we are comparing those guys, that does matter.
 
Offensively KG could do everything that's why it is a knock though.  He could shoot from 3 if needed, post game handles, quickness etc. It was all there offensively.  And your talking about this supreme Western Conference but look at the 2005-2006 NBA season when the T-Wolves missed the playoffs.

1. Spurs- The Spurs
2. Phoenix- without Amar'e
3. Denver- Melo/AI
4. Dallas- Dirk
5. Memphis- Pau's Grizzlies
6. Clippers- Brand/Cassell
7. Lakers- Kobe and Bums
8. Kings- Bibby/Artest

I wouldn't call those teams overwhelming juggernauts of talent, it was kind of a down year.  Where did the T-Wolves finish? Second worst in the Western Conference.  I can't think of any top 30 player ever who in his prime could only muster 14th place in a conference despite the #%*% sandwich of talent KG played with by then.  By its why I hate KG's "I'ma soldier" charade he puts on,  If your a %%!+#@* soldier go grab the ball and score.  This isn't Roy Hibbert offensively this is a guy who is 7 feet and could post, drive and shoot.  KG acts like a thug but is the scardest dude when it comes down to it.  He's the playground bully, bigger than everyone else and oushes around little guys but when someon cmparable calls his number he never shows face.  Overall, in Minnesota dude did absolutely nothing except for one year.  That was solely cause his team sucked.  But its not like they were worse than the Barkely 76ers for instance and those teams routeinyl got past the first round.  So when we are comparing those guys, that does matter.
 
The problem with KG is even on crappy teams, with nobody else around him, he STILL wanted NO PART of being the guy down the stretch...

There's nobody around him, and he's STILL deferring and playing hot potato down the stretch of games...

KG couldn't ever do it on his own. It's like McGrady. He doesn't get a big black mark on his resume for never being able to advance in the playoffs? Difference being that dude wasn't ever afraid to take the big shot...

I think some of us have different definitions of what a player's legacy is. For me, a legacy includes what your teams did and how far you were able to carry them. Were you afraid of the big shot or were you the guy stepping up and willing your team to victory?

Garnett was afraid of that moment his whole career.
 
The problem with KG is even on crappy teams, with nobody else around him, he STILL wanted NO PART of being the guy down the stretch...

There's nobody around him, and he's STILL deferring and playing hot potato down the stretch of games...

KG couldn't ever do it on his own. It's like McGrady. He doesn't get a big black mark on his resume for never being able to advance in the playoffs? Difference being that dude wasn't ever afraid to take the big shot...

I think some of us have different definitions of what a player's legacy is. For me, a legacy includes what your teams did and how far you were able to carry them. Were you afraid of the big shot or were you the guy stepping up and willing your team to victory?

Garnett was afraid of that moment his whole career.
 
Wilt is another perfect example.  Dude put up beyond nintendo numbers, and won 2 titles. 

Bill Russ put up nice numbers, nothing ridiculous besides his rebound totals, and dude ran outta fingers to put rings on.  Hell his 11th one is probably a #@$! ring. 
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Tellin me that Wilt wasn't "missing something" in terms of getting it done?  Clearly I didn't see them play or seen much video other then what everyone else has seen, but I have read enough times how he could never get over the hump.  I would use Simmons in here for this, but dude is a Celtic fan, so maybe not the best person to ask on this subject. 
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PF's
Duncan

Malone
Barkley
Dirk
KG
Webber
McHale (who Simmons listed to high, for obvious reasons, and I think very highly of McHale, but come on #35 all time? 
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)

In some sort of order after Dunc.  And I don't know enough about the older older guys that could be included here. 

I do want to throw out a name though, someone who SHOULD have been near the very top of this list.  Rasheed Wallace.  If that kid had any sort of brain, he would have been unstoppable.  I look at his high arcing shot, as well as his very high release just like I look at Dirk's.  And the way he played defense when motivated to do so, he could have been a top 20 player all time imo.  TALENT wise, obviously he didn't live up to that.  Vince is another one that I thought should be way up there, but he had no heart and broke down too soon. 
I saw alot of Sheed's career while he was here and Portland fans were just miserable with the guy.  He would play Duncan to an absolute stand still one game, and let AC Green push him around the next.  It was incredible.  Just unbelievable.  But that guy had range from 30 feet, his shot was near flawless, he was so damn fundamentally sound in his movements, but yet he was lazy, or dumb, or didn't care enough, I dunno.  But if he had the heart of a Duncan in his body, he would have done major damage to folks.  I think we were all robbed of what Sheed could have been. 
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Wilt is another perfect example.  Dude put up beyond nintendo numbers, and won 2 titles. 

Bill Russ put up nice numbers, nothing ridiculous besides his rebound totals, and dude ran outta fingers to put rings on.  Hell his 11th one is probably a #@$! ring. 
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Tellin me that Wilt wasn't "missing something" in terms of getting it done?  Clearly I didn't see them play or seen much video other then what everyone else has seen, but I have read enough times how he could never get over the hump.  I would use Simmons in here for this, but dude is a Celtic fan, so maybe not the best person to ask on this subject. 
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PF's
Duncan

Malone
Barkley
Dirk
KG
Webber
McHale (who Simmons listed to high, for obvious reasons, and I think very highly of McHale, but come on #35 all time? 
grin.gif
)

In some sort of order after Dunc.  And I don't know enough about the older older guys that could be included here. 

I do want to throw out a name though, someone who SHOULD have been near the very top of this list.  Rasheed Wallace.  If that kid had any sort of brain, he would have been unstoppable.  I look at his high arcing shot, as well as his very high release just like I look at Dirk's.  And the way he played defense when motivated to do so, he could have been a top 20 player all time imo.  TALENT wise, obviously he didn't live up to that.  Vince is another one that I thought should be way up there, but he had no heart and broke down too soon. 
I saw alot of Sheed's career while he was here and Portland fans were just miserable with the guy.  He would play Duncan to an absolute stand still one game, and let AC Green push him around the next.  It was incredible.  Just unbelievable.  But that guy had range from 30 feet, his shot was near flawless, he was so damn fundamentally sound in his movements, but yet he was lazy, or dumb, or didn't care enough, I dunno.  But if he had the heart of a Duncan in his body, he would have done major damage to folks.  I think we were all robbed of what Sheed could have been. 
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You absolutely can speak on Carter, his resume is just a little um, lacking next to those other guys I have mentioned. 
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You can certainly bring him up, and if enough people have thoughts on him (and good ones, not he's the greatest dunker of all time = HOF) type stuff, then I can edit him into the first post. 


Manu is another one that could be brought up if someone has a case they want to present. 
 
You absolutely can speak on Carter, his resume is just a little um, lacking next to those other guys I have mentioned. 
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You can certainly bring him up, and if enough people have thoughts on him (and good ones, not he's the greatest dunker of all time = HOF) type stuff, then I can edit him into the first post. 


Manu is another one that could be brought up if someone has a case they want to present. 
 
With all of Sheed's abilities, versatility, & athleticism, he had potential to be one of the best PF's of all time.
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As for VC...

8 time NBA All-Star
2 time All-NBA
NBA Slam Dunk Champion
NBA All-Rookie First Team
NBA Rookie of the Year Award
2000 Gold Medalist
35 all time on the scoring list
Plus his records for the Nets & Raptors that he holds...

& his scoring per season during his best years -

99-00 - 25.7 PPG
00-01 - 27.6 PPG
01-02 - 24.7 PPG
02-03 - 20.6 PPG
03-04 - 22.5 PPG
04-05 - 24.5 PPG
05-06 - 24.2 PPG
06-07 - 25.2 PPG
07-08 - 21.3 PPG
08-09 - 20.8 PPG

Granted he's not a lock compared to the other players listed... But I think he holds a pretty strong arguement to get in.
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With all of Sheed's abilities, versatility, & athleticism, he had potential to be one of the best PF's of all time.
ohwell.gif


As for VC...

8 time NBA All-Star
2 time All-NBA
NBA Slam Dunk Champion
NBA All-Rookie First Team
NBA Rookie of the Year Award
2000 Gold Medalist
35 all time on the scoring list
Plus his records for the Nets & Raptors that he holds...

& his scoring per season during his best years -

99-00 - 25.7 PPG
00-01 - 27.6 PPG
01-02 - 24.7 PPG
02-03 - 20.6 PPG
03-04 - 22.5 PPG
04-05 - 24.5 PPG
05-06 - 24.2 PPG
06-07 - 25.2 PPG
07-08 - 21.3 PPG
08-09 - 20.8 PPG

Granted he's not a lock compared to the other players listed... But I think he holds a pretty strong arguement to get in.
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Great thread
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On to the banter.

 
He simply goes ghost on offense in 4th quarters.  He still plays Defense, he still hustles, he still rebounds, sets screens, he's engaged in the game, but when the ball hits his hands, he can't move it along quick enough


 
KG was never ghost in most 4th quarters in Minny. The knock is/was clutch shots. That is, the very last seconds of an entire game. I'll agree that he lacks those last minute beaters on his resume, but like you said in the rest of your sentence, he still did everything, and we do mean EVERYTHING else needed for his team to win. The guy had much less help than his counterparts (Duncan and Dirk). He made Wally an All-Star for crying out loud.

His abilities were greater than what his team had to offer. Unless he had a shooter on his team that could routinely nail down three's, he was so much less effective because of the constant double and triple teams. He had to kick it out. Not to mention the lack of high quality PG's he played with. Terrell Brandon on the decline of his career, but even he deferred to forcing KG make things happen on triple teams. Billups used KG to resurrect his career then he bounced. Outside of Brandon and Cassel, there's not a soul. He took a lineup of Troy Hudson, Wally, Rasho Nesterovic, and Joe Smith to the playoffs, whereas Dirk had guys like Finley and Nash.

And KG took his teams to the playoffs. They'd just always lose in the first round. After eight consecutive playoff appearances, his last two years in Minnesota were with guys no better than those he had like the lineup I mentioned above. It wasn't a KG problem, it was a Management (McHale) problem.

However, after all this, He will probably end up the third best forward of this particular era behind both Duncan and Dirk. Garnett is close to the end and Dirk still has a few good years to continue is resume. It's a good argument between the two, but it's hard not to take Dirk over KG at this point and projecting to any point in the near future.
 
Great thread
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On to the banter.

 
He simply goes ghost on offense in 4th quarters.  He still plays Defense, he still hustles, he still rebounds, sets screens, he's engaged in the game, but when the ball hits his hands, he can't move it along quick enough


 
KG was never ghost in most 4th quarters in Minny. The knock is/was clutch shots. That is, the very last seconds of an entire game. I'll agree that he lacks those last minute beaters on his resume, but like you said in the rest of your sentence, he still did everything, and we do mean EVERYTHING else needed for his team to win. The guy had much less help than his counterparts (Duncan and Dirk). He made Wally an All-Star for crying out loud.

His abilities were greater than what his team had to offer. Unless he had a shooter on his team that could routinely nail down three's, he was so much less effective because of the constant double and triple teams. He had to kick it out. Not to mention the lack of high quality PG's he played with. Terrell Brandon on the decline of his career, but even he deferred to forcing KG make things happen on triple teams. Billups used KG to resurrect his career then he bounced. Outside of Brandon and Cassel, there's not a soul. He took a lineup of Troy Hudson, Wally, Rasho Nesterovic, and Joe Smith to the playoffs, whereas Dirk had guys like Finley and Nash.

And KG took his teams to the playoffs. They'd just always lose in the first round. After eight consecutive playoff appearances, his last two years in Minnesota were with guys no better than those he had like the lineup I mentioned above. It wasn't a KG problem, it was a Management (McHale) problem.

However, after all this, He will probably end up the third best forward of this particular era behind both Duncan and Dirk. Garnett is close to the end and Dirk still has a few good years to continue is resume. It's a good argument between the two, but it's hard not to take Dirk over KG at this point and projecting to any point in the near future.
 
Originally Posted by AIRJORDAN JB23

With all of Sheed's abilities, versatility, & athleticism, he had potential to be one of the best PF's of all time.
ohwell.gif


As for VC...

8 time NBA All-Star
2 time All-NBA
NBA Slam Dunk Champion
NBA All-Rookie First Team
NBA Rookie of the Year Award
2000 Gold Medalist
35 all time on the scoring list
Plus his records for the Nets & Raptors that he holds...

& his scoring per season during his best years -

99-00 - 25.7 PPG
00-01 - 27.6 PPG
01-02 - 24.7 PPG
02-03 - 20.6 PPG
03-04 - 22.5 PPG
04-05 - 24.5 PPG
05-06 - 24.2 PPG
06-07 - 25.2 PPG
07-08 - 21.3 PPG
08-09 - 20.8 PPG

Granted he's not a lock compared to the other players listed... But I think he holds a pretty strong arguement to get in.
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Lotta stretchin you doin there my friend. 
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  Whole lotta regular season work.  Postseason work? 
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  Everybody got Gold medals, and all rookie teams, and all star games and such, but elite level work, what does Vince bring to the table?  That's what I wanna see.


He may get into the hall, and that's fine, but he may not even crack the top 75 all time imo.  And that's a damn shame, cuz he was talented enough to be a top 15 type guy. 

651, I'm posting your KG angle under his resume.  Like I said, I want to have all angles covered for the players.  Biased ones, non biased ones, and haterish ones, long as they aren't too over the top.  Just so you can see the full spectrum of arguments on a player. 

  
 
Originally Posted by AIRJORDAN JB23

With all of Sheed's abilities, versatility, & athleticism, he had potential to be one of the best PF's of all time.
ohwell.gif


As for VC...

8 time NBA All-Star
2 time All-NBA
NBA Slam Dunk Champion
NBA All-Rookie First Team
NBA Rookie of the Year Award
2000 Gold Medalist
35 all time on the scoring list
Plus his records for the Nets & Raptors that he holds...

& his scoring per season during his best years -

99-00 - 25.7 PPG
00-01 - 27.6 PPG
01-02 - 24.7 PPG
02-03 - 20.6 PPG
03-04 - 22.5 PPG
04-05 - 24.5 PPG
05-06 - 24.2 PPG
06-07 - 25.2 PPG
07-08 - 21.3 PPG
08-09 - 20.8 PPG

Granted he's not a lock compared to the other players listed... But I think he holds a pretty strong arguement to get in.
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Lotta stretchin you doin there my friend. 
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  Whole lotta regular season work.  Postseason work? 
nerd.gif
wink.gif
  Everybody got Gold medals, and all rookie teams, and all star games and such, but elite level work, what does Vince bring to the table?  That's what I wanna see.


He may get into the hall, and that's fine, but he may not even crack the top 75 all time imo.  And that's a damn shame, cuz he was talented enough to be a top 15 type guy. 

651, I'm posting your KG angle under his resume.  Like I said, I want to have all angles covered for the players.  Biased ones, non biased ones, and haterish ones, long as they aren't too over the top.  Just so you can see the full spectrum of arguments on a player. 

  
 
Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

KG couldn't ever do it on his own. It's like McGrady. 
  
I cringed when I read that. I know you're not really comparing the two like that, but McGrady's name next to Kevin's is disrespectful.

KG couldn't win on his own, but never tried as he was the epitome of a team player. McGrady just couldn't do it period. Garnett on any team with a supporting cast could win. It didn't matter where TMac went. It wasn't happening.
 
Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

KG couldn't ever do it on his own. It's like McGrady. 
  
I cringed when I read that. I know you're not really comparing the two like that, but McGrady's name next to Kevin's is disrespectful.

KG couldn't win on his own, but never tried as he was the epitome of a team player. McGrady just couldn't do it period. Garnett on any team with a supporting cast could win. It didn't matter where TMac went. It wasn't happening.
 
I hope that everyone who is clowning KG does the same to Webber.

KG never really changed his approach at the end of the fourth. He just prefers to shoot jumpers. That's his game.

Webber wanted no part of the rock when the game was on the line.
 
I hope that everyone who is clowning KG does the same to Webber.

KG never really changed his approach at the end of the fourth. He just prefers to shoot jumpers. That's his game.

Webber wanted no part of the rock when the game was on the line.
 
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