No Church in the Wild Discussion

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One of the harder tracks 2 decipher on this album...a lot of good insight in the official thread but hear we can keep on topic.


Originally Posted by cartune

Originally Posted by back1ntheday

Originally Posted by Ace Rawstein


anybody care to share their interpretation of Jay's verse on "No Church In the Wild" or the song in general

Im personally not a big fan of this track but I think he is trying to paint a picture...lil blurry for me still tho 
ill give it a try

essentially i thinks hes questioning the relationships between god/kings/civilians and the church. what him and ye are doing is making up something that works for them.

Tears on the mausoleum floor / Blood stains the coliseum doors /
mausoleum- a tomb that is built in honor of leaders/kings, where they're buried
coliseum - place where athletes/gladiators put their lives on the line for the entertainment of others
hes getting at the fact that when a king dies, people cry for them - when a gladiator dies, people cheer, like their life is worthless/inhuman.
hes questioning who has the right to decide that.

Lies on the lips of a priest / Thanksgiving disguised as a feast /
pretty straightforward. everybody knows the origins of thanksgiving and early european colonizers. initial "thanksgivings" were shared by native americans as well as settlers together as they gave thanks to their god/s as and the harvest season. hes questioning the motives of the church spreading the word in a land that isn't theirs. like it was the root of evil to come.

Rolling in the Rolls Royce Corniche / Only the doctors got this /
I’m hiding from police / Cocaine seats /
All white like I got the whole thing bleached / Drug dealer chic /
this section ties in with what's coming next. hes saying that these cars are meant for the noble/rich/elite - to the successful. but there he is, a drug dealer, in the same type of car, hiding from the police, having a much lower social status/rank. all the while "looking the part" of someone successful in life,even though he gained his riches be selling.

I’m wondering if a thug’s prayers reach / Is Pious pious cause God loves pious? /
Socrates asked whose bias do yall seek / All for Plato, screech / I’m out here balling, I know yall hear my sneaks
 / Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy laid beats / Hova flow the Holy Ghost / Get the hell up out your seats / Preach
my favorite part right here. hes wondering if god listens to people who continually live in sin/or judges people by their status in life/social standing. in the next line hes bringing me back to philosophy 101
- and the euthyphro dilemma. socrates says "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" is what is right or moral  - universally right? or is it only right because they say so? hes asking where do you stand.  all for plato, screech. i dont know for sure but from what i gather some philosophers were thought to be the annoying type, to constantly question things, and were the constant object of ridicule. basically jay is saying that hes asking these questions for you benefit. hes like do you hear what im saying? and the last lines finish it off, basically the new religion is the holy trinity of rap. father, son and the holy spirit are now jesus, kanye, and jay-z.
Pretty much 
I found the Euthyphro quote crazy too followed by the line "..All for Plato..screech" Plato was Socrates's protege like Kanye is to Jay. 

The "screech" references the way Kanye acts out sometimes he was Just like Plato. Plato was known as a social gadfly. And shunned because of it.

"A gadfly is a person who upsets the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions....or just being an irritant"

In the end both Socrates and Plato were assassinated because of there attack on social norms. Here Jay is comparing that because he and Yeezy sometimes reference things that might be against social norms or relgion he and Kanye are being assasinated socially (called devil worshippers and Illuminati members)

Its the plight of the social gadfly. 

During the trial of Socrates...Plato wrote the Apology about the trial of Socrates

"In the Apology Socrates tries to dismiss rumors that he is a sophist and defends himself against charges of disbelief in the gods and corruption of the young."

^ Sound familiar?






I think this was a great explanation...


So I guess The Dreams verses "I live by you, desire" makes a smooth segue into Kanye's verse about living for desire rather than whats "socially moral" or what's said to be "religiously correct" in his threesome and disbelieve for monogamy?

Also I'm not sure how to incorporate Frank Oceans verse...who is considered the actual nonbeliever here?
 
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Never heard the song and came in wonderin why its so important and i see a wall o text

Goes to youtube.....

This better be amazin
 
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op was trying to post this stuff I believe
Originally Posted by cartune

Originally Posted by back1ntheday

Originally Posted by Ace Rawstein


anybody care to share their interpretation of Jay's verse on "No Church In the Wild" or the song in general

Im personally not a big fan of this track but I think he is trying to paint a picture...lil blurry for me still tho 
ill give it a try

essentially i thinks hes questioning the relationships between god/kings/civilians and the church. what him and ye are doing is making up something that works for them.

Tears on the mausoleum floor / Blood stains the coliseum doors / 
mausoleum- a tomb that is built in honor of leaders/kings, where they're buried
coliseum - place where athletes/gladiators put their lives on the line for the entertainment of others
hes getting at the fact that when a king dies, people cry for them - when a gladiator dies, people cheer, like their life is worthless/inhuman.
hes questioning who has the right to decide that.

Lies on the lips of a priest / Thanksgiving disguised as a feast / 
pretty straightforward. everybody knows the origins of thanksgiving and early european colonizers. initial "thanksgivings" were shared by native americans as well as settlers together as they gave thanks to their god/s as and the harvest season. hes questioning the motives of the church spreading the word in a land that isn't theirs. like it was the root of evil to come.

Rolling in the Rolls Royce Corniche / Only the doctors got this / 
I’m hiding from police / Cocaine seats / 
All white like I got the whole thing bleached / Drug dealer chic / 
this section ties in with what's coming next. hes saying that these cars are meant for the noble/rich/elite - to the successful. but there he is, a drug dealer, in the same type of car, hiding from the police, having a much lower social status/rank. all the while "looking the part" of someone successful in life,even though he gained his riches be selling.

I’m wondering if a thug’s prayers reach / Is Pious pious cause God loves pious? / 
Socrates asked whose bias do yall seek / All for Plato, screech / I’m out here balling, I know yall hear my sneaks
 / Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy laid beats / Hova flow the Holy Ghost / Get the hell up out your seats / Preach
my favorite part right here. hes wondering if god listens to people who continually live in sin/or judges people by their status in life/social standing. in the next line hes bringing me back to philosophy 101 
 - and the euthyphro dilemma. socrates says "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" is what is right or moral  - universally right? or is it only right because they say so? hes asking where do you stand.  all for plato, screech. i dont know for sure but from what i gather some philosophers were thought to be the annoying type, to constantly question things, and were the constant object of ridicule. basically jay is saying that hes asking these questions for you benefit. hes like do you hear what im saying? and the last lines finish it off, basically the new religion is the holy trinity of rap. father, son and the holy spirit are now jesus, kanye, and jay-z.
Pretty much 
I found the Euthyphro quote crazy too followed by the line "..All for Plato..screech" Plato was Socrates's protege like Kanye is to Jay. 

The "screech" references the way Kanye acts out sometimes he was Just like Plato. Plato was known as a social gadfly. And shunned because of it.

"A gadfly is a person who upsets the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions....or just being an irritant"

In the end both Socrates and Plato were assassinated because of there attack on social norms. Here Jay is comparing that because he and Yeezy sometimes reference things that might be against social norms or relgion he and Kanye are being assasinated socially (called devil worshippers and Illuminati members)

Its the plight of the social gadfly. 

During the trial of Socrates...Plato wrote the Apology about the trial of Socrates

"In the Apology Socrates tries to dismiss rumors that he is a sophist and defends himself against charges of disbelief in the gods and corruption of the young."

^ Sound familiar?




Great explanation...


So I guess The Dreams verses "I live by you, desire" makes a smooth segue into Kanye's verse about living for desire rather than whats "socially moral" in his threesome and disbelieve for monogamy....  
 
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I think the "nonbeliever" just gives us a full circle saying that a god is nothing to you if you dont believe in him & a king (which in most periods were divine by "gods") wont be looked at as having the same power.. So technically the nonbeliever has the same power as everyone else in the hook.
 
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Originally Posted by tevinbrad

I think the "nonbeliever" just gives us a full circle saying that a god is nothing to you if you dont believe in him & a king (which in most periods were divine by "gods") wont be looked at as having the same power.. So technically the nonbeliever has the same power as everyone else in the hook.
 
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Great breakdown... Those references are really on point. Everyone on the track's verse or hook fits & compliments each other's perfectly.
 
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"Thanksgiving disguised as a feast..." early thanksgiving was not celebrated by both "settlers" and natives. It was actually created as a celebration for the massacre of 700 members of the Pequot Nation in the Connecticut. Babies, women and warriors were brutally slaughtered by Europeans, their heads decapitated and impaled on spikes as a message to the rest of the natives. { It was signed into law that, “This day forth shall be a day of celebration and thanksgiving for subduing the Pequots.
 
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Great breakdown BTW.

The hook and song title is really deep.

There is no church in the wilderness....as you hear the lion roaring and the monkey's screeching at the end of the track, you should realize that religion is a social construct. As animals, humans included, are not naturally endowed with religion. It is created to facilitate civilization..the artists are calling you to think deeper about that point.
 
But that analysis doesn't end at the typical anti-religious sentiment that is spreading in pop culture today. The hook calls that ideology into question as well. Without civilization and organization, masses of humans are simply mobs...a King can be a "God" and a "God" can be a King...but if you don't believe in either civilization or religion...if you're a non-believer...then you are reverted back to nature, to your lower animal self. Where do you go from there?

With flash mobs running through American inner city streets and mobs rioting throughout Europe and the Middle East, the message and questions brought forth on this track, couldn't be more timely or appropriate.
 
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Originally Posted by goldenchild9

Great breakdown BTW.

The hook and song title is really deep.

There is no church in the wilderness....as you hear the lion roaring and the monkey's screeching at the end of the track, you should realize that religion is a social construct. As animals, humans included, are not naturally endowed with religion. It is created to facilitate civilization..the artists are calling you to think deeper about that point.
 
But that analysis doesn't end at the typical anti-religious sentiment that is spreading in pop culture today. The hook calls that ideology into question as well. Without civilization and organization, masses of humans are simply mobs...a King can be a "God" and a "God" can be a King...but if you don't believe in either civilization or religion...if you're a non-believer...then you are reverted back to nature, to your lower animal self. Where do you go from there?

With flash mobs running through American inner city streets and mobs rioting throughout Europe and the Middle East, the message and questions brought forth on this track, couldn't be more timely or appropriate.
That's what I had a problem trying to understand...

After the dream say's "I live for you, desire" into Kanye's verse about "No sins as long as there's permission" it seems as if they threw religion out the window...

Then again he says "And deception is the only felony, So never *!#$ nobody without tellin’ me" almost as if he was talking about the deception of the "lies of the priest" and "thanksgiving disguised as a feast" in Jay-Z's verse...

Idk this song is like a open ended question forcing listeners to find their own truths....
 
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Originally Posted by goldenchild9

"Thanksgiving disguised as a feast..." early thanksgiving was not celebrated by both "settlers" and natives. It was actually created as a celebration for the massacre of 700 members of the Pequot Nation in the Connecticut. Babies, women and warriors were brutally slaughtered by Europeans, their heads decapitated and impaled on spikes as a message to the rest of the natives. { It was signed into law that, “This day forth shall be a day of celebration and thanksgiving for subduing the Pequots.
 
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i read everything that was said in this thread.

im astounded at the level of knowledge this song has.

mind is blown!
 
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Originally Posted by Ace Rawstein

Originally Posted by cartune

Originally Posted by back1ntheday

ill give it a try

essentially i thinks hes questioning the relationships between god/kings/civilians and the church. what him and ye are doing is making up something that works for them.

Tears on the mausoleum floor / Blood stains the coliseum doors /
mausoleum- a tomb that is built in honor of leaders/kings, where they're buried
coliseum - place where athletes/gladiators put their lives on the line for the entertainment of others
hes getting at the fact that when a king dies, people cry for them - when a gladiator dies, people cheer, like their life is worthless/inhuman.
hes questioning who has the right to decide that.

Lies on the lips of a priest / Thanksgiving disguised as a feast /
pretty straightforward. everybody knows the origins of thanksgiving and early european colonizers. initial "thanksgivings" were shared by native americans as well as settlers together as they gave thanks to their god/s as and the harvest season. hes questioning the motives of the church spreading the word in a land that isn't theirs. like it was the root of evil to come.

Rolling in the Rolls Royce Corniche / Only the doctors got this /
I’m hiding from police / Cocaine seats /
All white like I got the whole thing bleached / Drug dealer chic /
this section ties in with what's coming next. hes saying that these cars are meant for the noble/rich/elite - to the successful. but there he is, a drug dealer, in the same type of car, hiding from the police, having a much lower social status/rank. all the while "looking the part" of someone successful in life,even though he gained his riches be selling.

I’m wondering if a thug’s prayers reach / Is Pious pious cause God loves pious? /
Socrates asked whose bias do yall seek / All for Plato, screech / I’m out here balling, I know yall hear my sneaks
�/ Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy laid beats / Hova flow the Holy Ghost / Get the hell up out your seats / Preach
my favorite part right here. hes wondering if god listens to people who continually live in sin/or judges people by their status in life/social standing. in the next line hes bringing me back to philosophy 101
- and the euthyphro dilemma. socrates says "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" is what is right or moral� - universally right? or is it only right because they say so? hes asking where do you stand.� all for plato, screech. i dont know for sure but from what i gather some philosophers were thought to be the annoying type, to constantly question things, and were the constant object of ridicule. basically jay is saying that hes asking these questions for you benefit. hes like do you hear what im saying? and the last lines finish it off, basically the new religion is the holy trinity of rap. father, son and the holy spirit are now jesus, kanye, and jay-z.
Pretty much�
I found the Euthyphro quote crazy too followed by the line "..All for Plato..screech" Plato was Socrates's protege like Kanye is to Jay.�

The "screech"�references�the way Kanye acts out sometimes he was�Just like Plato. Plato was known as a social gadfly. And shunned because of it.

"A gadfly is a person who upsets the status quo by posing upsetting or novel questions....or just being an irritant"

In the end both Socrates and Plato were assassinated because of there attack on social norms. Here Jay is comparing that because he and Yeezy sometimes reference things that might be against social norms or relgion he and Kanye are being assasinated socially (called devil worshippers and Illuminati members)

Its the plight of the social gadfly.�

During the trial of Socrates...Plato wrote the Apology about the trial of Socrates

"In the Apology Socrates tries to dismiss rumors that he is a sophist and defends himself against charges of disbelief in the gods and corruption of the young."

^ Sound familiar?




u dudes did work!
Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy laid beats / Hova flow the Holy Ghost / Get the hell up out your seats / Preach

"the last lines finish it off, basically the new religion is the holy trinity of rap. father, son and the holy spirit are now jesus, kanye, and jay-z."

^i dunno why but I still cant call it on this but good insight nonetheless�
and�
I took the Hook to be that a non believer trumps all. Everyone else is ruled by something. A non believer is ruled by himself (that kinda ties back into the subjective truth line, find your own truth)

but ill leave it like this Jay is just a deeply introspective individual. I mean to deal drugs and do all the "bad" or what society deems bad in life then to raise to such great success in life must leave him with more questions than answers. Most pressing I would suggest is "Why me?"�

if you read his book he talks having to sell drugs and the�dynamic�of being a castoff of�society expected to sell drugs so he�merely obliged.�

I could talk about this for a whole post but ill let me say it himself�

�

*let him say it himself 

and for the record im a huge fan of dude and think all the devil Illuminati is non nonsensical ignorance

what he believes is just that for him to believe not my or anyone else's business to judge

only break down what dude is trying to say bar for bar

to better understand
 
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Originally Posted by goldenchild9

"Thanksgiving disguised as a feast..." early thanksgiving was not celebrated by both "settlers" and natives. It was actually created as a celebration for the massacre of 700 members of the Pequot Nation in the Connecticut. Babies, women and warriors were brutally slaughtered by Europeans, their heads decapitated and impaled on spikes as a message to the rest of the natives. { It was signed into law that, “This day forth shall be a day of celebration and thanksgiving for subduing the Pequots.â€
 
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Originally Posted by sStutter
[hr][/hr]
Originally Posted by MetroKid26

"2 tattoos, one read 'No apologies'/The other said 'Love is cursed by monogamy'/That's something that the pastor don't preach/That's something the teacher can't teach" - I need help making sense of that though, I mean wouldn't love be safe if monogamy was around?
From how I see it, Kanye, in the scope of this verse at least, is advocating polyamory, the practice, desire, and acceptance of having more than one intimate relationship at a time. He believes that true love is universal love, unbounded by the moral and ethical confines that society has attached to it. That is, monogamy severely limits love by forcing you to be intimate with only one significant other. The latter lines refer to the fact that polyamory and virtually any other relationship structure other than monogamy is heavily frowned down upon by pastors, teachers, and more or less society as a whole. The tone implies that he's questioning why this is the case, why humans are expected to live according to these rules when the vast majority of the animal kingdom doesn't, why we have to educate ourselves about polyamory, etc.
This may be a reach but when Kanye says "read" I hear it as "red". I know they sound exactly alike but it would make sense he meant it to sound both ways because when I think of red tatto I think of The Scarlet Letter. Here's a little write up of the Scarlet Letter:

[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]The symbolism behind the scarlet letter [/color]A[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)] changes throughout this novel. Though initially this letter [/color]A[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)] symbolizes the sin of adultery, Hester Prynne alters its meaning through her hard work and charity. Some people begin to suggest that the [/color]A[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)] stands for "able," since Hester is such a capable woman. Others begin to recognize that the scarlet letter has begun to achieve holiness, righteousness. It has "the effect of the cross on a nun’s bosom. It imparted to the wearer a kind of sacredness, which enabled her to walk securely amid all peril. Had she fallen among thieves, it would have kept her safe" (13.5). Many years later, when Hester returns and voluntarily takes up the scarlet letter again, it has become, for her and others, a symbol of grace. [/color]

By embroidering the “Aâ€
 
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I just think no church in the wild just means a flawed, lawless society. It's a jungle, and the "church" represents morality, righteousness. and we (the ones in the wild) live like animals, we aren't confined by that morality, we do what we want. "What's a God to a nonbeliever?" why would someone do right if wrong felt right, and there wasn't a higher being watching you?

What I wrote from the album discussion
 
It's as if Jay was rapping from a higher scale looking down on the world...seeing the blood on the doors, questioning why the pious are pious. (which I always wanted to know too. I always felt being pious is like working out to be healthy but making poor choices for meals, where the pious preach, but don't practice.)

Kanye's verse is more like him in the Jungle itself, almost being apart of the society itself.

"We formed a new religion/No sins as long as there's permission": 'If everybody is down for it, then there are no problems. It's not like were doing direct harm to one another, it's just pleasure'

"2 tattoos, one read 'No apologies'/The other said 'Love is cursed by monogamy'/That's something that the pastor don't preach/That's something the teacher can't teach" - I need help making sense of that though, I mean wouldn't love be safe if monogamy was around?
 
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Originally Posted by MetroKid26

I just think no church in the wild just means a flawed, lawless society. It's a jungle, and the "church" represents morality, righteousness. and we (the ones in the wild) live like animals, we aren't confined by that morality, we do what we want. "What's a God to a nonbeliever?" why would someone do right if wrong felt right, and there wasn't a higher being watching you?

What I wrote from the album discussion
 
It's as if Jay was rapping from a higher scale looking down on the world...seeing the blood on the doors, questioning why the pious are pious. (which I always wanted to know too. I always felt being pious is like working out to be healthy but making poor choices for meals, where the pious preach, but don't practice.)

Kanye's verse is more like him in the Jungle itself, almost being apart of the society itself.

"We formed a new religion/No sins as long as there's permission": 'If everybody is down for it, then there are no problems. It's not like were doing direct harm to one another, it's just pleasure'

"2 tattoos, one read 'No apologies'/The other said 'Love is cursed by monogamy'/That's something that the pastor don't preach/That's something the teacher can't teach" - I need help making sense of that though, I mean wouldn't love be safe if monogamy was around?

I think that this means that in a monogamous relationship you are only supposed to love one person whe nyou might have feelings for someone else.. In that relationship your views on love changes depending on how youre treated that person. Maybe he feels that there's nothing wrong with putting monogamy aside, which is why he says "No apologies" before it.
  
 
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The more I listen to this album the more NCITW reminds me of the way Kendrick Lamar opened his album with "*!!% Your Ethnicity"...


Like Kendrick said before we go any further you gotta *!!% your ethnicity, Jay and Kanye kind of threw you back into a natural state, or "the wild" before you even proceeded to listen...   


Dope man
...
 
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even though it was the first song, when i first heard the whole thing I knew this song would be my favorite track on the LP. Going back and listening to it again and again, Jay did a good job at a very introspective verse into society and ye was less lyrical but painted a better picture. It's funny because I feel like this song could have been put to better use than the spot of monster took on mbdtf. This song is probably way less marketable as a single though.
 
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This song is EASILY my favorite song on the album. From the sick guitar sample to the heart beat drum.

Just where the lyrics took me philosophically. This track is ILL.
 
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Favorite track on the album, favorite track of the year for me. I love the wordplay & the significance of their lyrics
 
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