NT's LEGAL Gun Thread UPDATE...First Youtube Firearm Review Page 61

[dathbgboy]

^^^^ I'd like to piggyback on this topic if yall don't mind.


I feel like from an economical standpoint, handguns and shotguns are better for home defense. They're aren't as expensive as rifles (unless u want a .22LR AR style) However, when taking into account the ppl that will potentially use the weapon in the midst of an intrusion.

I thought about purchasing a shotgun to accompany my .45acp for home defense. However, taking into account the recoil and the possibility of my wife having to use it also, I feel an AR would be better.

 

[juice man]

I have a .380 I'm not too familiar with all these guns y'all are posting. Lol

 

[ar guy]

Originally Posted by Dathbgboy

^^^^ I'd like to piggyback on this topic if yall don't mind.


I feel like from an economical standpoint, handguns and shotguns are better for home defense. They're aren't as expensive as rifles (unless u want a .22LR AR style) However, when taking into account the ppl that will potentially use the weapon in the midst of an intrusion.

I thought about purchasing a shotgun to accompany my .45acp for home defense. However, taking into account the recoil and the possibility of my wife having to use it also, I feel an AR would be better.

If on a budget I would go the shotgun route. What makes an AR such a good platform is the 5.56 round so getting one in .22LR would be a bad idea. But look into the AR for HD, they're going to be lighter and have less recoil than a shotgun.

 

[richiecotite]

Originally Posted by Dathbgboy

^^^^ I'd like to piggyback on this topic if yall don't mind.


I feel like from an economical standpoint, handguns and shotguns are better for home defense. They're aren't as expensive as rifles (unless u want a .22LR AR style) However, when taking into account the ppl that will potentially use the weapon in the midst of an intrusion.

I thought about purchasing a shotgun to accompany my .45acp for home defense. However, taking into account the recoil and the possibility of my wife having to use it also, I feel an AR would be better.

I think one advantage a good pump action shotgun has against an AR is ease of use. For me, there's almost no way i could get my wife to see my handle one of my firearms, much less train and learn basic manipulation of one. But in a pinch, i think everyone pretty much knows how to rack the slide on a pump action and pull the trigger.  

*Edit* I think as far as AR vs. shotgun, I'd take a good, properly setup shotgun over an AR.

 

[kiendienn]

Originally Posted by AR Guy

Originally Posted by ElderWatsonDiggs

About the whole Shotgun versus AR-15 debate...well I have been mulling on it for more than a few days. Have had "writers/posters" block on the whole subject because I can't honestly say either way which is better because of a few factors. Ultimately with the PROPER ammo (frangible rounds for the AR, #1 Buckshot for the Shotgun) and the PROPER setup, and PROPER training on either platform they are both great home defense options. It's all a matter of ability and preference.

For me I prefer a reliable semi-auto shotgun with extended tubular mag...like the 930 SPX, or the Benelli M4...I can load 8 standard sized (2-3/4") 12 gauge shells and I can ghost load a 9th round. That's very nice capacity for a shotgun. I was trained at the killhouse at Range 37 in NC http://www.range37.com/ . It is run by the former NCOIC of SOFAERTEC (Green Berets high speed shooting school). I was the only guy using my shottie in the CQB room clearing exercises. True you do still have to aim with a shotgun...BUT a well placed center mass shot with #1 Buckshot is DEVASTATING. You don't even want to be with that with body armor on. For the record with #1 Buck you don't have to worry about overpenetration as much...#00 buck is a little more volatile going though sheetwall.

As far as CQB some units do use a shotgunner as the Point man in the stack. Why, because nothing lays down decisive and powerful firepower like a shotgun does. But then again the shotgun of choice for CQB (The Benelli M4 Entry) is very expensive and too specialized for the average units to employ. You'll usually only see them used by the well funded units with the autonomy to choose the weapon of their liking.

Since I have been trained on it, and know the capabilities and limitations I prefer a shotgun for home defense. I like my rifle outdoor short to medium range applications. I like my pistols for convenience and portability. Pistols are still very important for home defense. You can have pistols strategically located around your house for home defense. Sure you could barricade yourself in your room and fight it out with your long guns...but who says you will be invaded while in your room? You could be on your computer browsing NT while dropping the kids off at the pool in the porcelain palace when they decide to invade your premises. Sure you could have your rifle or shotgun in there with you, but it's nothing to simply take your pistol with you from room to room. I know some die-harders who keep their pistols in their holsters even when around the house.

Point of all this is, be effective with a pistol, a rifle, or a shotgun. All can be effective in a home defense role depending on the situation. To say which one is the best is more about preference and skill level more than anything else.

I agree with a lot of what you said Elder, in fact most of it. You don't fall in to the preconceived notion that all you have to do is just rack the slide of the shotgun or you don't have to aim it because you know it's a shotgun or the most idiotic thing ever which is recommending using birdshot. 
*DISCLAIMER: USE WHAT EVER YOU ARE MOST FAMILIAR WITH FOR HD WHETHER IT BE A SHOTGUN OR A RIFLE.*

Now my personal opinion on the matter is I favor a rifle in the AR pattern. Like I said in an earlier post, if I could pick one HD weapon it would be a 11.5" AR with a suppressor, Eotech EXPS2-0 and light loaded with 75gr 5.56 Hornady TAP. I saw that you recommended frangible rounds for an AR, I would highly advise against it. I would not recommend any round that doesn't pass the FBI's minimum of 12" of penetration through ballistic gelatin. A shotgun can defiantly lay down some hurt but the cons of it is it's going to be limited magazine capacity, longer and heavier than a 16" AR. With an AR you will have less recoil, which means quicker follow up shots. Most units that do use shotguns, it is almost strictly for breaching doors. Even now you see police and SWAT units moving more towards ARs. Plus rifle rounds will zip through any soft armor no problem and will penetrate through drywall less than pistols and shotguns. 

With pistols, the only time to really rely on one is when you don't have a long gun or carrying one is impractical. The ability to conceal and the how easy it is to just pick up and move around with a pistol is invaluable. If I ever had to use my pistol at my house it would only be to retreat to my rifle. But at night when I'm laying in my bed sleeping I have my AR right next to the bed. If I here something go bump in the night I'm slinging my AR and going to investigate. 

When you talk about home defense, we're talking about inside the house right?
The effective area of a shotgun shell is a lot larger in comparison to an AR shell, I would imagine, and just off this one basis, I would assume the shotgun would trump the AR if the user were comfortable with both weapons.

The 930SPX is semi-automatic, you can mount an eotech if you well please, extended tubular loading and ghost loading (as stated above) for increased ammo capacity, all of which somewhat balances the pros of the AR towards the shotgun, as well [in terms of home defense].

I think it comes down to, would you want to throw a small pebble, or a big +@% rock at someone.

Maybe my perspective is all wrong.

Also, recoil can be greatly accounted for by a few mods on the shotgun

 

[anabolic dunk]

Just picked up a Saiga 12. I want to modify it into a pistol grip. Im leaning towards the tapco saiga t6.. Any other recomendations?

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

I'd honestly be careful about recommending an AR for primary home defense...The 5.56/.223 is a very hot round...Sheetwall, sheetrock, or whatever it's called is not much of a barrier when you are talking about the 5.56/.223 round. If you are living in an apartment building, or have family or other occupants in the vicinity it's just too risky...borderline irresponsible. Remember one of the cardinal rules of shooting is know your backstop in regards to the weapon you are using.

Home defense is different than CQB. CQB is pretty much saying you know you are going in after somebody and you want to be on the offensive more than anything...and to be honest CQB is more associated with military/hostage rescue situations...and CQB is usually conducted by HIGHLY trained individuals who run through numerous drills and expend more ammo in one week than some battalions do in a year while in garrison.

Home defense however is simply being prepared for the unfortunate event of someone entering your premises unexpectedly with the intent to harm you and/or your family. The average person will simply not have access to the training, nor the budget for ammo, and possibly not $$$ to pay for such a specialized platform like an AR. You can get a trusty reliable pumpgun for less than $500 NIB. It's simple, it's devastatingly effective, and it lessens the chance of overpenetration when using the right load.

Now I'm not bagging on the AR...it has its purpose. I love them myself, heck I dropped close to 5k in one sitting for my Mk12 with Leupold Mark IV scope and 1000 rounds of Mk.262 Mod 1 77 grain 5.56 ammo. But I know that ultimately there is no best gun...there is a gun that suits specific situations better than others.

Also lets not act like pistols aren't very capable. The whole adage of a pistol only being good enough to until you can get your rifle is merely a overly romanticized phrase that gets thrown around. Make no mistake...a pistol while not having as much muzzle velocity/energy of a rifle is still a weapon that fires a projectile with enough force to hurt, maim, kill an individual...especially at the range normally seen in home defense. The internet is abuzz of stories of the crazed PCP guy that absorbed seven rounds from a Desert Eagle .50 and still managed to stay on his feet and they run with those stories. They bring up the FBI massacre in Miami...the bank robbery in North Hollywood, but very rarely do they talk about stories of handguns as small a caliber of the 9mm effectively incapacitating individuals. Put it this way...if someone were to invade my premises and all I had at my immediate disposal was my handgun, then I am going to use it to incapacitate the individual if the individual doesn't take me out first. It's kinda like saying you know your handgun isn't going ot be effective so your mind is already in retreat mode until you can get to your rifle. Not exactly the fighting mindset you want to have. A combat mindset will have you focused on taking out the individual with whatever is at your disposal at the time, and if by chance that's not enough then you escalate force. I'm not pulling this out my @$#, this was drilled into us before deploying by our instructor who a member of the Navy SEALS...a whole lesson on combat mindset. Some interesting stuff.
 

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

Originally Posted by richiecotite

my newest (and last major) pickup

10.5" LMT upper w/bcg and troy rear sight. Got it from a guy off AR15.com; that place is like the ISS of guns! I pretty much traded my DPMS for this upper. My plan for this is to make it into a pistol in the next 3 months, then submit my Form 2 to BATFE, so hopefully Santa will have a SBR for me for christmas. Guy i bought it from included 5 GI mags

Awesome Cotite!!! Good stuff man. Can't wait to see the finished product.

 

[th0mas cr0wn]

So the other night i went over to walmart to purchase a box of winchester 9mm for target practice. I went to the register to ask if they could open up the cage so I can pick some up, and they said they don't sell ammo after 10pm. Anyone know the reason for that?

In Cali btw

 

[hollowpoints]

I once read somewhere that the benefit of having a shotgun for home defense is that you wouldn't have to be as accurate with it as with a pistol or rifle. I guess if it were a situation where it's 3am and you're half asleep, you'll have a better chance of hitting your mark using a shotgun with buck than with a pistol or rifle. Any truth to that?

I'm planning to pick up a semi-auto shotgun in the near future, don't think I'd be confident w/ a pump as I have zero experience with them. I fear that in a home invasion situation, without lots of practice, I'd forget to rack the thing and get myself killed. Got my eye on the Benelli M4, my friend just picked one up yesteray

 

[ayejreeun]

Originally Posted by ElderWatsonDiggs

I'd honestly be careful about recommending an AR for primary home defense...The 5.56/.223 is a very hot round...Sheetwall, sheetrock, or whatever it's called is not much of a barrier when you are talking about the 5.56/.223 round. If you are living in an apartment building, or have family or other occupants in the vicinity it's just too risky...borderline irresponsible. Remember one of the cardinal rules of shooting is know your backstop in regards to the weapon you are using.

Home defense is different than CQB. CQB is pretty much saying you know you are going in after somebody and you want to be on the offensive more than anything...and to be honest CQB is more associated with military/hostage rescue situations...and CQB is usually conducted by HIGHLY trained individuals who run through numerous drills and expend more ammo in one week than some battalions do in a year while in garrison.

Home defense however is simply being prepared for the unfortunate event of someone entering your premises unexpectedly with the intent to harm you and/or your family. The average person will simply not have access to the training, nor the budget for ammo, and possibly not $$$ to pay for such a specialized platform like an AR. You can get a trusty reliable pumpgun for less than $500 NIB. It's simple, it's devastatingly effective, and it lessens the chance of overpenetration when using the right load.

Now I'm not bagging on the AR...it has its purpose. I love them myself, heck I dropped close to 5k in one sitting for my Mk12 with Leupold Mark IV scope and 1000 rounds of Mk.262 Mod 1 77 grain 5.56 ammo. But I know that ultimately there is no best gun...there is a gun that suits specific situations better than others.

Also lets not act like pistols aren't very capable. The whole adage of a pistol only being good enough to until you can get your rifle is merely a overly romanticized phrase that gets thrown around. Make no mistake...a pistol while not having as much muzzle velocity/energy of a rifle is still a weapon that fires a projectile with enough force to hurt, maim, kill an individual...especially at the range normally seen in home defense. The internet is abuzz of stories of the crazed PCP guy that absorbed seven rounds from a Desert Eagle .50 and still managed to stay on his feet and they run with those stories. They bring up the FBI massacre in Miami...the bank robbery in North Hollywood, but very rarely do they talk about stories of handguns as small a caliber of the 9mm effectively incapacitating individuals. Put it this way...if someone were to invade my premises and all I had at my immediate disposal was my handgun, then I am going to use it to incapacitate the individual if the individual doesn't take me out first. It's kinda like saying you know your handgun isn't going ot be effective so your mind is already in retreat mode until you can get to your rifle. Not exactly the fighting mindset you want to have. A combat mindset will have you focused on taking out the individual with whatever is at your disposal at the time, and if by chance that's not enough then you escalate force. I'm not pulling this out my @$#, this was drilled into us before deploying by our instructor who a member of the Navy SEALS...a whole lesson on combat mindset. Some interesting stuff.
 

Talked about this at work today.  For home defense, I think the average civilian is not trained to used an AR in that case.  Too much penetration, as those rounds will go through walls and possibly hit other people either outside your house, or in another room.  Too much risk and in the heat of the moment, where one has to act before thinking, it'll be hard to find your target AND be able to realize what's surrounding that target.  

 

[ar guy]

Originally Posted by kiendienn

Originally Posted by AR Guy

Originally Posted by ElderWatsonDiggs

About the whole Shotgun versus AR-15 debate...well I have been mulling on it for more than a few days. Have had "writers/posters" block on the whole subject because I can't honestly say either way which is better because of a few factors. Ultimately with the PROPER ammo (frangible rounds for the AR, #1 Buckshot for the Shotgun) and the PROPER setup, and PROPER training on either platform they are both great home defense options. It's all a matter of ability and preference.

For me I prefer a reliable semi-auto shotgun with extended tubular mag...like the 930 SPX, or the Benelli M4...I can load 8 standard sized (2-3/4") 12 gauge shells and I can ghost load a 9th round. That's very nice capacity for a shotgun. I was trained at the killhouse at Range 37 in NC http://www.range37.com/ . It is run by the former NCOIC of SOFAERTEC (Green Berets high speed shooting school). I was the only guy using my shottie in the CQB room clearing exercises. True you do still have to aim with a shotgun...BUT a well placed center mass shot with #1 Buckshot is DEVASTATING. You don't even want to be with that with body armor on. For the record with #1 Buck you don't have to worry about overpenetration as much...#00 buck is a little more volatile going though sheetwall.

As far as CQB some units do use a shotgunner as the Point man in the stack. Why, because nothing lays down decisive and powerful firepower like a shotgun does. But then again the shotgun of choice for CQB (The Benelli M4 Entry) is very expensive and too specialized for the average units to employ. You'll usually only see them used by the well funded units with the autonomy to choose the weapon of their liking.

Since I have been trained on it, and know the capabilities and limitations I prefer a shotgun for home defense. I like my rifle outdoor short to medium range applications. I like my pistols for convenience and portability. Pistols are still very important for home defense. You can have pistols strategically located around your house for home defense. Sure you could barricade yourself in your room and fight it out with your long guns...but who says you will be invaded while in your room? You could be on your computer browsing NT while dropping the kids off at the pool in the porcelain palace when they decide to invade your premises. Sure you could have your rifle or shotgun in there with you, but it's nothing to simply take your pistol with you from room to room. I know some die-harders who keep their pistols in their holsters even when around the house.

Point of all this is, be effective with a pistol, a rifle, or a shotgun. All can be effective in a home defense role depending on the situation. To say which one is the best is more about preference and skill level more than anything else.

I agree with a lot of what you said Elder, in fact most of it. You don't fall in to the preconceived notion that all you have to do is just rack the slide of the shotgun or you don't have to aim it because you know it's a shotgun or the most idiotic thing ever which is recommending using birdshot. 
*DISCLAIMER: USE WHAT EVER YOU ARE MOST FAMILIAR WITH FOR HD WHETHER IT BE A SHOTGUN OR A RIFLE.*

Now my personal opinion on the matter is I favor a rifle in the AR pattern. Like I said in an earlier post, if I could pick one HD weapon it would be a 11.5" AR with a suppressor, Eotech EXPS2-0 and light loaded with 75gr 5.56 Hornady TAP. I saw that you recommended frangible rounds for an AR, I would highly advise against it. I would not recommend any round that doesn't pass the FBI's minimum of 12" of penetration through ballistic gelatin. A shotgun can defiantly lay down some hurt but the cons of it is it's going to be limited magazine capacity, longer and heavier than a 16" AR. With an AR you will have less recoil, which means quicker follow up shots. Most units that do use shotguns, it is almost strictly for breaching doors. Even now you see police and SWAT units moving more towards ARs. Plus rifle rounds will zip through any soft armor no problem and will penetrate through drywall less than pistols and shotguns. 

With pistols, the only time to really rely on one is when you don't have a long gun or carrying one is impractical. The ability to conceal and the how easy it is to just pick up and move around with a pistol is invaluable. If I ever had to use my pistol at my house it would only be to retreat to my rifle. But at night when I'm laying in my bed sleeping I have my AR right next to the bed. If I here something go bump in the night I'm slinging my AR and going to investigate. 

When you talk about home defense, we're talking about inside the house right?
The effective area of a shotgun shell is a lot larger in comparison to an AR shell, I would imagine, and just off this one basis, I would assume the shotgun would trump the AR if the user were comfortable with both weapons.

Yes, I'm talking inside a home. With a shotgun, you will see a spread of about .2-.3" per foot so at about 12' you will get a spread of somewhere between 2.5-3.5" So you still have to aim and that really makes the argument null and void. Center mass is still center mass. And if the bad guy is wearing soft armor the buckshot will not defeat it, 5.56 on the other hand will go through it with no problem.

The 930SPX is semi-automatic, you can mount an eotech if you well please, extended tubular loading and ghost loading (as stated above) for increased ammo capacity, all of which somewhat balances the pros of the AR towards the shotgun, as well [in terms of home defense].

So you can get around 12 shots I would guess (I don't know much about shotguns), it still isn't better than 30. Ask anyone who's been in a gun fight and ask them have they ever wanted less ammo. I see you brought up my point about the Eotech, well can you attach a light in a position that is comfortably reachable because putting a light on your HD weapon is an absolute must. Plus my 16" AR is 32" long compared to the 930SPX which 39.5". That 7" is going to make a huge difference. 

I think it comes down to, would you want to throw a small pebble, or a big +@% rock at someone.

It's more like a bunch round of pebbles going around 1300 fps or one sharp fragmenting pebble going 2600 fps. With a shotgun you bleed out. A rifle on the other hand causes massive trauma.

Maybe my perspective is all wrong.

Also, recoil can be greatly accounted for by a few mods on the shotgun

Originally Posted by ElderWatsonDiggs

I'd honestly be careful about recommending an AR for primary home defense...The 5.56/.223 is a very hot round...Sheetwall, sheetrock, or whatever it's called is not much of a barrier when you are talking about the 5.56/.223 round. If you are living in an apartment building, or have family or other occupants in the vicinity it's just too risky...borderline irresponsible. Remember one of the cardinal rules of shooting is know your backstop in regards to the weapon you are using.
I knew this may be brought up. This notion that a 5.56 will penetrate more than shotguns or pistols is absolutely FALSE. Any round that will penetrate the body enough to be lethal will make light work of sheet rock but the fact of the matter is because the 5.56 round is so light and is moving so fast, once it hits a barrier it begins bleeding off energy rapidly. Compare that to a pistol or shotgun where the round is heavy and not moving very fast. The momentum of the round makes them penetrate much more than rifle rounds. Officers have even been told that if they must shoot through a wall they recommend them to transition to their pistol because of how OTM 5.56 reacts through barriers.
Home defense is different than CQB. CQB is pretty much saying you know you are going in after somebody and you want to be on the offensive more than anything...and to be honest CQB is more associated with military/hostage rescue situations...and CQB is usually conducted by HIGHLY trained individuals who run through numerous drills and expend more ammo in one week than some battalions do in a year while in garrison.
Which why in a HD scenario, if I'm in my room I'm calling the cops first letting who ever is in my house that if they don't get out bad things are going to happen to them and barricading myself. Insurance will handle it if anything is stolen. But I do agree with you, HD is not about going from room to room clearing your house, it's repelling an attack.
Home defense however is simply being prepared for the unfortunate event of someone entering your premises unexpectedly with the intent to harm you and/or your family. The average person will simply not have access to the training, nor the budget for ammo, and possibly not $$$ to pay for such a specialized platform like an AR. You can get a trusty reliable pumpgun for less than $500 NIB. It's simple, it's devastatingly effective, and it lessens the chance of overpenetration when using the right load.
Like I said OTM 5.56 will penetrate less than any shotgun load that will prove fatal to an attacker. I do agree if on a budget though you can't beat a stock pump 12ga.
Now I'm not bagging on the AR...it has its purpose. I love them myself, heck I dropped close to 5k in one sitting for my Mk12 with Leupold Mark IV scope and 1000 rounds of Mk.262 Mod 1 77 grain 5.56 ammo. But I know that ultimately there is no best gun...there is a gun that suits specific situations better than others.

Also lets not act like pistols aren't very capable. The whole adage of a pistol only being good enough to until you can get your rifle is merely a overly romanticized phrase that gets thrown around. Make no mistake...a pistol while not having as much muzzle velocity/energy of a rifle is still a weapon that fires a projectile with enough force to hurt, maim, kill an individual...especially at the range normally seen in home defense. The internet is abuzz of stories of the crazed PCP guy that absorbed seven rounds from a Desert Eagle .50 and still managed to stay on his feet and they run with those stories. They bring up the FBI massacre in Miami...the bank robbery in North Hollywood, but very rarely do they talk about stories of handguns as small a caliber of the 9mm effectively incapacitating individuals. Put it this way...if someone were to invade my premises and all I had at my immediate disposal was my handgun, then I am going to use it to incapacitate the individual if the individual doesn't take me out first. It's kinda like saying you know your handgun isn't going ot be effective so your mind is already in retreat mode until you can get to your rifle. Not exactly the fighting mindset you want to have. A combat mindset will have you focused on taking out the individual with whatever is at your disposal at the time, and if by chance that's not enough then you escalate force. I'm not pulling this out my @$#, this was drilled into us before deploying by our instructor who a member of the Navy SEALS...a whole lesson on combat mindset. Some interesting stuff.
 Fact of the matter is most people shot by a handgun live. If I have the option, I'm not going to limit my self to the ballistics of a handgun when a rifle if right there. The handgun was born of convenience and the need for concealment. It is not an offensive weapon nor should it be used as one. I understand if that's all you have at the time but if you have a choice, a pistol should be last. That is why I'm stating that for HD it goes rifle>shotgun>pistol.

At least no one recommended bird shot for HD which proves there is hope yet.

 

[kmn2008]

Originally Posted by Simba King

[color= rgb(255, 0, 0)]My current 3 guns at the moment, all are 40. cal Sig Sauer's.....P226, P239, and P238....But want to get rid of the P226 and replace with another concealed size, but dont know the best route to go in selling it [/color]

do you carry that p226? I was thinking about copping one for CC but ive heard they are not the "optimal" choice

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

 Fact of the matter is most people shot by a handgun live. If I have the option, I'm not going to limit my self to the ballistics of a handgun when a rifle if right there. The handgun was born of convenience and the need for concealment. It is not an offensive weapon nor should it be used as one. I understand if that's all you have at the time but if you have a choice, a pistol should be last. That is why I'm stating that for ME HD it goes rifle>shotgun>pistol.

At least no one recommended bird shot for HD which proves there is hope yet.


I don't even know how to respectfully respond to the statement of most people living after being shot with a handgun. Your bias is obvious, so I'll just chalk it up to that. I have learned that there is often a gap between gun talk and gun skills. Because a man skilled in small arms would be effective in a home defense scenario with a handgun, rifle, or shotgun regardless of personal preference. It cracks me up how people really think they can dictate the parameters of a home invasion (hold up bad guy...my rifle is in my room...let me take a few potshots at you with my pistol until I can make it back to my long gun). You better be able to use whatever is at your IMMEDIATE disposal effectively. Of course you could mitigate that problem by having your AR slung across your body while cooking, bathing, sleeping, having sex, or the many other household activities that normal people do while not thinking about being invaded by an armed and dangerous intruder.

 

[0cks]

Isn't just hearing the pump action getting cocked enough to make em run? (pause)

 

[richiecotite]

^ no such thing as one "optimal" choice for CCW. Optimal is a combination of your abilities/comfortablity, retention, concealability.

My 1911 was easily the most concealable pistol i ever carried. But i wouldn't carry it with one in the pipe and the hammer back w/thumb safety off, because i was paranoid the safety would disengage.

 

[kmn2008]

Originally Posted by richiecotite

^ no such thing as one "optimal" choice for CCW. Optimal is a combination of your abilities/comfortablity, retention, concealability.

My 1911 was easily the most concealable pistol i ever carried. But i wouldn't carry it with one in the pipe and the hammer back w/thumb safety off, because i was paranoid the safety would disengage.

Yeah, "optimal" probably was not the best word to use. I was more interested on his take on the size and weight of the sig compared to a compact firearm. What is your current CCW richie? What made you switch from your 1911?

 

[mplsdunk]

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct1067.aspx

found what i want.

 

[dathbgboy]

Originally Posted by AR Guy

Originally Posted by Dathbgboy

^^^^ I'd like to piggyback on this topic if yall don't mind.


I feel like from an economical standpoint, handguns and shotguns are better for home defense. They're aren't as expensive as rifles (unless u want a .22LR AR style) However, when taking into account the ppl that will potentially use the weapon in the midst of an intrusion.

I thought about purchasing a shotgun to accompany my .45acp for home defense. However, taking into account the recoil and the possibility of my wife having to use it also, I feel an AR would be better.

If on a budget I would go the shotgun route. What makes an AR such a good platform is the 5.56 round so getting one in .22LR would be a bad idea. But look into the AR for HD, they're going to be lighter and have less recoil than a shotgun.

Yea, that's the point I was trying to make but richiecotite made a valid point as well as far as getting the mrs to train/learn how to use the AR. Just spoke to my wife and she's indecisive.  Doesn't want to learn how to use the AR but doesn't want the recoil of the shotgun.smh

 

[kiendienn]

Found this on reddit.

Uhh, never in a million years did I think I'd see this here. The round was from a semi-auto AK-47. It came from about a quarter mile away. Some drunk rednecks "didn't know" there were houses behind the tree line they were shooting into. Oh ya, I'm her neighbor btw. I remember having to stay inside in the basement while police searched for the source of the round.

http://
[h2]...[/h2]

http://
[h2]This is where she was standing...[/h2]

http://
[h2]It went through the fridge...[/h2]

http://
[h2]Through a frozen water bottle..[/h2]

http://
[h2]Through the back of the fridge...[/h2]

http://
[h2]Out the other side into the next wall...[/h2]

http://
[h2]Out of the wall...[/h2]

http://
[h2]across the hall...[/h2]

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[h2]Through the next wall, and into the bathroom[/h2]

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[h2]and embeded into the back of the mirror in the bathroom...[/h2]

http://
[h2]...[/h2]

http://
[h2]...[/h2]
http://i.imgur.com/kW5Pa.jpg

http://imgur.com/download/kW5Pa/...

 

[ar guy]

Originally Posted by ElderWatsonDiggs

 Fact of the matter is most people shot by a handgun live. If I have the option, I'm not going to limit my self to the ballistics of a handgun when a rifle if right there. The handgun was born of convenience and the need for concealment. It is not an offensive weapon nor should it be used as one. I understand if that's all you have at the time but if you have a choice, a pistol should be last. That is why I'm stating that for ME HD it goes rifle>shotgun>pistol.

At least no one recommended bird shot for HD which proves there is hope yet.


I don't even know how to respectfully respond to the statement of most people living after being shot with a handgun. Your bias is obvious, so I'll just chalk it up to that. I have learned that there is often a gap between gun talk and gun skills. Because a man skilled in small arms would be effective in a home defense scenario with a handgun, rifle, or shotgun regardless of personal preference. It cracks me up how people really think they can dictate the parameters of a home invasion (hold up bad guy...my rifle is in my room...let me take a few potshots at you with my pistol until I can make it back to my long gun). You better be able to use whatever is at your IMMEDIATE disposal effectively. Of course you could mitigate that problem by having your AR slung across your body while cooking, bathing, sleeping, having sex, or the many other household activities that normal people do while not thinking about being invaded by an armed and dangerous intruder.

It's a true statement regarding people shot once. Pistols rounds do not create as much trauma and rely on hitting the CNS or a vital organ to incapacitate. On the other hand, rifles and shotguns inflect massive trauma so they are much more forgiving on shot placement. I don't doubt a truly skilled individual could kill a man with a spork, but that doesn't make it an ideal HD weapon. I'm just saying that a pistol is a defensive weapon and if that is all I have I'm gonna fight like hell with it but if I have the option to fight with somethings better than why limit myself? And you make a good point that you cannot dictate what happens in a home invasion, so what happens when they're wearing the soft armor they stole out of that cop car last week? Like I said pistols have their place but like you said at the end of the day use what you have the most trigger time with. Also I have no bias at all, I love all guns 

. 
Off topic, I want to Block II SOPMOD my AR so bad. 

 

[elderwatsondiggs]

Originally Posted by AR Guy

Originally Posted by ElderWatsonDiggs

At least no one recommended bird shot for HD which proves there is hope yet.

I don't even know how to respectfully respond to the statement of most people living after being shot with a handgun. Your bias is obvious, so I'll just chalk it up to that. I have learned that there is often a gap between gun talk and gun skills. Because a man skilled in small arms would be effective in a home defense scenario with a handgun, rifle, or shotgun regardless of personal preference. It cracks me up how people really think they can dictate the parameters of a home invasion (hold up bad guy...my rifle is in my room...let me take a few potshots at you with my pistol until I can make it back to my long gun). You better be able to use whatever is at your IMMEDIATE disposal effectively. Of course you could mitigate that problem by having your AR slung across your body while cooking, bathing, sleeping, having sex, or the many other household activities that normal people do while not thinking about being invaded by an armed and dangerous intruder.

It's a true statement regarding people shot once. Pistols rounds do not create as much trauma and rely on hitting the CNS or a vital organ to incapacitate. On the other hand, rifles and shotguns inflect massive trauma so they are much more forgiving on shot placement. I don't doubt a truly skilled individual could kill a man with a spork, but that doesn't make it an ideal HD weapon. I'm just saying that a pistol is a defensive weapon and if that is all I have I'm gonna fight like hell with it but if I have the option to fight with somethings better than why limit myself? And you make a good point that you cannot dictate what happens in a home invasion, so what happens when they're wearing the soft armor they stole out of that cop car last week? Like I said pistols have their place but like you said at the end of the day use what you have the most trigger time with. Also I have no bias at all, I love all guns 

. 
Off topic, I want to Block II SOPMOD my AR so bad. 

Man this is why I think it would be great if a few of us could hang out...I know we could have passionate discussion about weapons while on our way to the range or something. It's not a necessity that I agree with everything with the people I hang out with.

 

[ar guy]

^Man, that would be so awesome. 

 

[richiecotite]

Originally Posted by kmn2008

Originally Posted by richiecotite

^ no such thing as one "optimal" choice for CCW. Optimal is a combination of your abilities/comfortablity, retention, concealability.

My 1911 was easily the most concealable pistol i ever carried. But i wouldn't carry it with one in the pipe and the hammer back w/thumb safety off, because i was paranoid the safety would disengage.

Yeah, "optimal" probably was not the best word to use. I was more interested on his take on the size and weight of the sig compared to a compact firearm. What is your current CCW richie? What made you switch from your 1911?

   Right now I'm rocking with a FNP-9 in a horsehide theiss IWB (http://theisholsters.com/).

I really liked the 1911, like i said it was very concealable, but because in order to activate the slide safety the hammer has to up, and i was scared of getting 'glock leg', so i never carried with one in the pipe. Same thing when i used to carry my G22 (.40 glock), to shook to keep one in the pipe. Personally, i need a manual safety, and i strongly prefer hammer fired vs. striker fired.


I know there's at least a couple of MD cats that frequent this thread. We need to get this range meetup going.

 

[baby dill]

Very interesting discussions going on with two different topics (home defense & concealed carry safety).

I've been curious about the shotgun v. assault rifle debate for quite some time so appreciate all of the discussion. There is no right answer, but it is bringing up points I had not necessarily considered. The idea of an AR15 for HD is interesting. I had never even really considered it, but with some proper training, could definitely see the benefit of it.

The concealed carry topic is also interesting...I'd be curious to know of the guys who do carry frequently, are you keeping one in the chamber? Do you have a safety on your gun? Again, I think this comes down to preference and your comfort level with your weapon but have talked with some local guys at my shop down the road about this. I had always been taught not to keep one in the chamber -- "locked and loaded" so to speak. But learned that people definitely do this frequently.

Thanks again for all the discussion. It's nice to see a full page of new reading after work.