***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[RustyShackleford]

well i think if she posted this in The Lancet i wouldn't say anything about it.

academics should write whatever they think is true.
that's different than writing for a general audience.

if she really doesn't care about teachers sure ignore me.
but if I cared about teachers I think the what she wrote is unhelpful.


and yes, there are yimby people with non normie unpopular ideas.
"ban cars" is something that YIMBY people should definitely shut up about, or be very careful how when they talk about it.

So academics are only allowed to say certain stuff in academic journals?

That is a ridiculous standard to adhere to

You are basically demanding every academic think of themselves as a political agent for the Democratic party that makes sure their words don't trigger a bad reactionary from the marginal voters or make sure it doesn't upset the bad faith actors at Fox News.

Otherwise, they are "not helping"

So you are cool with speech codes, and policing speech, just certain kinds

 

[RustyShackleford]

Dude sounds like he is scared of the right-wing propaganda machine.

We know what is and what isn't, and when push comes to shove, the worst thing to do is to shut up and accept the right's spin on issues.

Actually, if you followed out the previous discussion on the matter he doesn't just think people should shut up in the face of the right-wing propaganda machine

He thinks it is wise for democrats politicians should agree with the right-wing points

Progressive should shut up, and centrist should **** on progressives

 

[gry60]

*Academics focus on articles and papers to be published in specialty journals*
--> The ivory tower dwellers are disconnected from the general public.
*Academics write about their work in publications read by the general public*
--> Academics should focus on the concerns of a minority of misinformed individuals and go along with ideas that run contrary to the consensus in their community

Doesn't sound too far from Galileo should shut up and agree with the position of the Catholic Church on the shape of Earth and its position in the solar system relative to the Sun.

 

[Wargames]

In some good news….

 

[RustyShackleford]

I don't believe that curriculum choices are always narrow technical question that can't be questioned by regular people.
and like I said if she trusts them that's cool, but framing it the way she framed it I don't think helps teachers.
hence why I said even if you believe it, id keep it to myself.



I don't think I'm ****ting on anyone's qualifications,
but I'm against credentialism and the inflation of experts


maybe im reading it differently from you but I did not get that impression.
She makes an exception for like the most extreme teacher behavior that causes "emotional harm",

but beyond that says that parental concerns over curriculum should be ignored
and teachers and curriculum should be insulated from parental influence.

What parental influence do you think people should have that they currently don't?

Because the power parents are demanding is for them to throw out anything they don't like. With thousands of parents, who could such a policy even work.

Like you are kinda painting teachers as unreasonable, but what is the reasonable compromise they are ignoring?

The author thinks teachers should build the curriculum, and schools boards should back them. That exposes the fact that teachers don't currently operate with impunity. Parents have power, school board meetings happen, parent-teacher conferences happen. I taught at the K-12 and university level, parents have input. Teachers' decisions are called into question at they oftentimes don't get their way. They certainly don't where I live, which has one of the worse school districts in America. Or the many conservative areas where they pretty much try to indoctrinate kids with conservative BS. Or in much of the country where parents **** up school systems in all sorts of ways with funding

Like I agree with this argument in a narrow sense, but parents are not completely helpless. Especially not white suburban ones

It is not about giving parents a voice or giving them some power. This issue seems more like giving certain groups that have a disproportionate about of political power their way

There are thousands upon of households with kids in K-12 schools, there is not really about addressing a strong consensus among parents more that it is about appeasing a certain group

i was using that example as response to general "trust the experts" attitude
again maybe im crazy, but I reard it as.
other than extreme cases of emotional harm caused by teachers, parents complaints about curriculum should be mostly ignored.

Really, this is where you posted it the first time...

I went to all white schools, my parents had to come in their on more than one occasion
and scream at my principle over racist / discriminatory teacher behavior.

im pretty happy the principle didn't respond with " you don't have the right to control teaching and learning "

You were not quoting anyone, so I assume you were referring to the article, but you didn't mention she addressed racist behavior directly in here article.

Seems like a bad faith way to deploy that example from your life. Because given what was said in the article, the author would agree with your mother's actions.

You clearly made it seem like it was the opposite.

like i said, I don't think it's manufactured moral panic,
I think CRT is being used as a catch all term to capture some real and imagined anxieties and resentments people have with schools.

I mean the right has a propaganda machine and the left doesn't,
so naturally left wing people have to be more sensitive to what the propaganda machine will do.

First, it is funny how you take such issue with the imprecision of "Defund the Police", openly mocking it, but you say with about how the term CRT is being deployed.

I think the frustration with school is much more narrow than the current CRT debate is actually about

It certainly doesn't require conservative state legislatures passing those stupid anti-crt laws, banning even more books, misrepresenting what CRT actually is to include basic stuff about civil rights, and all the right-wing nonsense going on.

There are a lot of other frustrations with public schools that go well beyond the curriculum that the CRT debate doesn't cover.

So yeah, I think it is a manufactured moral panic because of the clear lies, the clear propaganda campaign fueling it, the actions being taken to stop the "threat", and how many other issues with schools it ignores.

The more narrow reasonable objection people have to some of the additions of material from a few progressive sources should not equate to the type of backlash we are seeing now.

America has a history of this.

If you are on the left, you are by definition farther left that the average person
and I think you need to convince people, I think this article is extremely unconvincing unless you already agree.
the cherry on top is that it makes great propaganda.

Since you like to bring up Obama as having great insights into communicating to the marginal voter, maybe you should listen consider his words on stuff like this

That you can't expect a politician to sound like certain people (activist, academic, etc.)

And vice versa

Not every person has to or can live their life calculating everything they say to make sure they don't piss off the reactionary tendencies of the marginal voter. I will take it further with you, and say you can't expect everyone to be on high alert about not pissing off Tucker Carlson.

So many of your arguments operation the assumption that any and everyone on the left must see themselves as a representative of the Democratic Party, and de facto member of the DNC.

it is a unreasonable demand IMO.

Teachers are public employees, so if you want to support teachers,
doing it in a way that pisses off the electorate is unhelpful.

until we have government sponsored comedians, i think the comparison is a stretch.

Cops are public employees, their actions piss off members of the electorate

People support them in ways that piss off parts of the electorate

And you seem perfectly fine with this

And of course, you are because it is not about some principled concern about the electorate generally

It is about the feeling of the marginal white voter.

I don't think my comparisons were a stretch. You make these constant complaints about progressive speech codes and the effect they have on society. The comedian thing was another example of that. You have also done it in regards to newsrooms, workplaces, and universities

But here you are trying to enforce your own speech codes because you think it would be more helpful, you are pro-self-censoring and the defense of this is public vs. private.

Which is the very libertarian defense for conflicting positions.

But I guess do you

 

[gry60]

Actually, if you followed out the previous discussion on the matter he doesn't just think people should shut up in the face of the right-wing propaganda machine

He thinks it is wise for democrats politicians should agree with the right-wing points

Progressive should shut up, and centrist should **** on progressives

I followed it, and that position is and will always be ludicrous, if not downright dangerous.

What we're talking about goes beyond winning elections. We're talking about denying what is verifiable because a very loud number of people have decided not to believe in it. That's wrong.

Republican politicians have been abusing the trust of their base by using semantic sleights of hand like naming bills the opposite of what they accomplish and straight up lying about voting for bills that address the general well-being of their constituents when their voting record shows the opposite. They have had to make appeals about the seriousness of COVID because their main messaging outlet has been telling people that the pandemic was nothing to be worried about, which has never been true. As a result, republicans are more distrustful of the vaccination efforts. You can look at the low level of trust in elections among the same demographic and link it to the propagation of lies about the results of 2020 and the wild assertions Trump made since 2016.

Throughout the five years of the Trump era, the media stayed silent or tried to sugarcoat the gaslighting, until the propaganda machine turned on them. Even then, it took Jan 6th to get people to realize that **** can really hit the fan when nothing is done to correct the record.

And we're supposed to rerun the same play to appease some "concerned parents?"

They can ride a cactus for all I care.

 

[RustyShackleford]

It is really wild to me that most white suburban parents can **** up the public school system for so many other students with their NIMBYism, the instance of a certain tax system, funding structures, school district size, and school board elections

But then turn around and can't like they are being ignored because they don't have all the power

Like so much energy is spent criticizing a few progressive for their short cited and sometimes goofy solutions to structural problems. And we completely ignore how these problems formed in the first place.

Like I sympathize with a parent that is upset they are changing the math curriculum in a clumsy way in an effort to accommodate other minority students. When it comes to school, even the most well-intentioned parents are naturally rent-seeking for their children.

But most of these parents complaining (demographically) will also undermine all the other efforts to solve the structural issues that cause black students to fall behind in Math as well.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Everyone needs to read that Gawker piece on John WcHorter

The criticism of him not only apply to him but many other that take constant issue with seemingly any and everything progressive do

 

[RustyShackleford]

Just to remind everyone too

In our lifetime the Supreme Court is probably gonna force states to give parents hundreds of thousands in tax subsidies to opt their kids out of public school and send them to private institutions

Where they will be able to more closely hoard resources, and have control over a completely biased curriculum

So if we are worried about the excesses of the left when it comes to schools, don't worry, the right is just getting started.

Fun times ahead

 

[osh kosh bosh]

What parental influence do you think people should have that they currently don't?

Because the power parents are demanding is for them to throw out anything they don't like. With thousands of parents, who could such a policy even work.

Like you are kinda painting teachers as unreasonable, but what is the reasonable compromise they are ignoring?

yes some parents are making unreasonable demands,
but I think ultimately I think the article as not really reasonable either

it's public school, and it's totally reasonable for people to want schools to reflect the broad values of the public that funds it.
this idea that barring harm teachers should be parents should be ignored and teachers insulated from parental controls
isn't reasonable response imo.

The author thinks teachers should build the curriculum, and schools boards should back them. That exposes the fact that teachers don't currently operate with impunity. Parents have power, school board meetings happen, parent-teacher conferences happen. I taught at the K-12 and university level, parents have input. Teachers' decisions are called into question at they oftentimes don't get their way. They certainly don't where I live, which has one of the worse school districts in America. Or the many conservative areas where they pretty much try to indoctrinate kids with conservative BS. Or in much of the country where parents **** up school systems in all sorts of ways with funding

Like I agree with this argument in a narrow sense, but parents are not completely helpless. Especially not white suburban ones

It is not about giving parents a voice or giving them some power. This issue seems more like giving certain groups that have a disproportionate about of political power their way

There are thousands upon of households with kids in K-12 schools, there is not really about addressing a strong consensus among parents more that it is about appeasing a certain group

I didn't say that parents don't have input or that most teachers behave this way.
I said the attitude expressed in the article is counter productive. but I don't actually think most teachers think that way.

Really, this is where you posted it the first time...



You were not quoting anyone, so I assume you were referring to the article, but you didn't mention she addressed racist behavior directly in here article.

Seems like a bad faith way to deploy that example from your life. Because given what was said in the article, the author would agree with your mother's actions.

You clearly made it seem like it was the opposite.

it was an add on to my response to washed kings post, i forgot to quote it twice my bad.

First, it is funny how you take such issue with the imprecision of "Defund the Police", openly mocking it, but you say with about how the term CRT is being deployed.

Good slogans are imprecise by definition. Defund the police is a pretty good slogan.
my issues is that it's electoral poison and it's in service of a dumb idea.

CRT seems to be working for the GOP. as imprecise as and bad faith as it is.

I think the frustration with school is much more narrow than the current CRT debate is actually about

It certainly doesn't require conservative state legislatures passing those stupid anti-crt laws, banning even more books, misrepresenting what CRT actually is to include basic stuff about civil rights, and all the right-wing nonsense going on.

There are a lot of other frustrations with public schools that go well beyond the curriculum that the CRT debate doesn't cover.

So yeah, I think it is a manufactured moral panic because of the clear lies, the clear propaganda campaign fueling it, the actions being taken to stop the "threat", and how many other issues with schools it ignores.

The more narrow reasonable objection people have to some of the additions of material from a few progressive sources should not equate to the type of backlash we are seeing now.

America has a history of this.

I think it is somewhat narrow, but I think its more the pandemic has super charged it,
in a regular environment where schools weren't closed for long periods of time i don't think the CRT stuff would be nearly as potent.

Since you like to bring up Obama as having great insights into communicating to the marginal voter, maybe you should listen consider his words on stuff like this

That you can't expect a politician to sound like certain people (activist, academic, etc.)

And vice versa

Not every person has to or can live their life calculating everything they say to make sure they don't piss off the reactionary tendencies of the marginal voter. I will take it further with you, and say you can't expect everyone to be on high alert about not pissing off Tucker Carlson.

So many of your arguments operation the assumption that any and everyone on the left must see themselves as a representative of the Democratic Party, and de facto member of the DNC.

it is a unreasonable demand IMO.

they def don't have to,
it be nice tho.

Cops are public employees, their actions piss off members of the electorate

People support them in ways that piss off parts of the electorate

And you seem perfectly fine with this

am I? I don't understand what you're getting at.
I don't see how saying defund the police is stupid, means that im supportive of all the ways people support police.
there are plenty of counter productive ways to do that.

And of course, you are because it is not about some principled concern about the electorate generally

It is about the feeling of the marginal white voter.

fixed, the marginal voter. white or black, they are to the right of you and me.
yes i try whenever possible to put myself in there headspace, since they have a pretty big impact on outcomes.

I don't think my comparisons were a stretch. You make these constant complaints about progressive speech codes and the effect they have on society. The comedian thing was another example of that. You have also done it in regards to newsrooms, workplaces, and universities

But here you are trying to enforce your own speech codes because you think it would be more helpful, you are pro-self-censoring and the defense of this is public vs. private.

Which is the very libertarian defense for conflicting positions.

But I guess do you

it's a super stretch.

Im not trying to enforce anything.
I'm not saying anyone should be fired or cancelled. I'm just commenting that I think it's counter productive.

criticism of the culture, of newsrooms, universities, corporations, is not the enforcement of a speech code.

that like saying if i think a scene in a movie is ineffective and they should have cut it
well then im in favour of censorship.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I think Conservatives trying to protect their children from Beloved are pretty stupid.
and while it may energizes their base now

I think once the pandemic dies down
I think that's going to prove to be a pretty un popular and counter productive idea for their side as well.

 

[boris]

it applies to every profession,
expertise is relevant to technical questions with objective answers
but it doesn't mean you defer to the "experts" on questions that don't have that technical dimension
or involve weighing cost benefits / values ect

I may have some technical expertise on film and television production.
but it doesn't mean you need to defer to my expertise on whether or not your children should watch Dune. (they should )

Back to my example that I mentioned in the rest of my post, we rely on physics professors to design physics classes. We don't just let random people make those decisions. We don't let random people decide which classes must be taken to fulfill degree requirements.

It's not like teachers are making arbitrary decisions when they decide what should be taught in schools. They are educated in teaching. My girlfriend teaches and she doesn't go to random people to figure out how to design curricula. She uses her expertise in her field to figure out what people should be taught to accomplish different goals.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Damn, mans succinctly summarized Greenwald's scam in a single tweet.

 

[IATT]

 

[dinyc3st]

There’s a video out. Y’all can look that up yourselves.

this **** isn’t it, for real.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Whenever I hear people suggest the Democratic Party roll back the clock to before these new-age progressive gain influence and roll back the clock of the racial politics.

Let us remember that in the 90s and 80s the Democratic Party was accused of not being right enough too...

Joe Klein wrote an article suggesting one of the dumbest ideas around...


Let us see what he was up to in the 90s.....






People falling for the same scam over and over

 

[RustyShackleford]

And remember Bill Clinton dog whistled, did all kinds of bull**** in office that hurt all kinds of marginalized groups

And......

And it didn't stop the white voters the centrist pundits were trying to keep in the party from rejecting the Democratic Party anyway because they were "too PC" and sympathetic to unreasonable minorities

 

[osh kosh bosh]

how about roll it back to 08 obama?

 

[RustyShackleford]

how about roll it back to 08 obama?

No consideration to the fact Obama himself says it is not that simple and probably won't ensure the same results?

 

[RustyShackleford]

Funny no one remembers that the Democratic Party actually ran ahead of Obama in 2008

By like 3 points

If that where to happen again, the Dems have zero chance at winning the White House

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[gry60]

 

[AEA18]

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!

 

[gry60]

 

[gry60]

Everyone needs to read that Gawker piece on John WcHorter

The criticism of him not only apply to him but many other that take constant issue with seemingly any and everything progressive do

Also read the linked pieces that the author mentions in the article for added context.

One reason these anti-racist/diversity awareness initiatives exist in schools in the first place has to do with school administrations being responsive to minority students' complaints about racist comments from their classmates. That's where the "CRT makes white kids feel bad" nonsense comes from. Some of these parents are not being completely honest about how their children are behaving around minority kids while in school. It would be helpful if that was also part of the conversation.