***Official Political Discussion Thread***

gry60 gry60

Yeah, people attacked me on here when I said both sides are trash but what are they doing about any of this?

Other countries have riots, overthrow their government, impeach them, throw the corrupt in jail.

What do we get? “Let’s wait he won’t be president forever.”
 
Wow, what an awful and disappointing day it has been for me.

No conspiracy, no collusion, no crime, no cover-up. Just an innocent by-the-book regular guy. SUPER WEAK.

I voted in 2016 for a REAL MAN who would ignore the law, take no prisoners, do whatever the hell he wants kind of guy. Instead we got Obummer 2.0. Boring, lame, and not guilty of high crimes.

He still has a couple years to do something super-cool and illegal like push a reporter into a train or sell weapons to terrorists in exchange for prostitutes, but I'm starting to lose hope.
 
RustyShackleford RustyShackleford

The stuff that is in that report is what we have been discussing here for years. Most of the facts and events are now on paper, with the stamp of a federal investigator on it. Some theories have been confirmed and others have been disproven, but the main question, which is "does this president has the well-being of All Americans as the main purpose of his term?" has been answered, and the answer is negative.

The way I see it, political calculus is not a strong enough justification for not impeaching Trump. Fine, it's not old timers who don't wanna rock the boat; I still stand by my point regarding concerns about the political future of Democrats in Congress. If your district is purple, you should leave DC and not come back until you have garnered the support of your constituents to get rid of this man. If your district leans red, **** them. Impeach. This is bigger than your career.

The situation is urgent. I have said it before, and I will not stop saying this until we reform the way American politicians are elected: in any other country, we would be a full blown dictatorship by now. Does any of you knows what that looks like? I mean cancelled elections, jailed journalists, daily curfews, military patrolling our streets and arresting/shooting anyone found outside during curfew hours, extrajudicial killings, food/gas being rationed, can't be vocal against the authorities in public, etc... It doesn't take the support of the majority to implement any of this: a strong minority support for the dictator, a complacent voting population, and a weak opposition are all that is needed, and we already have two of those elements in the United States (a consistent 30% of people support Trump, and there are more non-voters than there are voters). And we haven't even taken into account the geographic distribution of that support.

We can't just hope that time will save us from this outcome, and we can't be naive about the reality that American institutions are being crippled from within; and the more time the Trump circle spends in the White House, the more partisans they can place in positions of power to undermine any attempt at fixing what allowed Trump to rise.

The blue wave of 2018 slowed down the authoritarian right, but it didn't stop them. In light of pastors calling for the execution of Obama and Clinton, open and rising racism and xenophobia, and public right-wing figures being more vocal about ditching democracy, the last thing we need is an opposition party that goes "can't do anything about our wannabe Emperor Bokassa (google him; his story is funny as ****)."

Furthermore, the Left can't just run in 2020 on promises; the people need to believe in them, and the American people believe in those who take action (good and bad). In light of everything that is transpiring, people demand action. Patience will look more like complacency for the Democratic base, which will frustrate many and give more credence to the both-sides-are-the-same argument; in addition, it will be portrayed as hesitation by the pro-Trump media (I can already hear Limbaugh scream "if the evidence is clear that Trump is unfit to lead, why are Democrats hesitating to impeach? Because it's a witch hunt; they don't actually have anything of substance").
 
gry60 said:
RustyShackleford RustyShackleford

The stuff that is in that report is what we have been discussing here for years. Most of the facts and events are now on paper, with the stamp of a federal investigator on it. Some theories have been confirmed and others have been disproven, but the main question, which is "does this president has the well-being of All Americans as the main purpose of his term?" has been answered, and the answer is negative.

The way I see it, political calculus is not a strong enough justification for not impeaching Trump. Fine, it's not old timers who don't wanna rock the boat; I still stand by my point regarding concerns about the political future of Democrats in Congress. If your district is purple, you should leave DC and not come back until you have garnered the support of your constituents to get rid of this man. If your district leans red, **** them. Impeach. This is bigger than your career.

The situation is urgent. I have said it before, and I will not stop saying this until we reform the way American politicians are elected: in any other country, we would be a full blown dictatorship by now. Does any of you knows what that looks like? I mean cancelled elections, jailed journalists, daily curfews, military patrolling our streets and arresting/shooting anyone found outside during curfew hours, extrajudicial killings, food/gas being rationed, can't be vocal against the authorities in public, etc... It doesn't take the support of the majority to implement any of this: a strong minority support for the dictator, a complacent voting population, and a weak opposition are all that is needed, and we already have two of those elements in the United States (a consistent 30% of people support Trump, and there are more non-voters than there are voters). And we haven't even taken into account the geographic distribution of that support.

We can't just hope that time will save us from this outcome, and we can't be naive about the reality that American institutions are being crippled from within; and the more time the Trump circle spends in the White House, the more partisans they can place in positions of power to undermine any attempt at fixing what allowed Trump to rise.

The blue wave of 2018 slowed down the authoritarian right, but it didn't stop them. In light of pastors calling for the execution of Obama and Clinton, open and rising racism and xenophobia, and public right-wing figures being more vocal about ditching democracy, the last thing we need is an opposition party that goes "can't do anything about our wannabe Emperor Bokassa (google him; his story is funny as ****)."

Furthermore, the Left can't just run in 2020 on promises; the people need to believe in them, and the American people believe in those who take action (good and bad). In light of everything that is transpiring, people demand action. Patience will look more like complacency for the Democratic base, which will frustrate many and give more credence to the both-sides-are-the-same argument; in addition, it will be portrayed as hesitation by the pro-Trump media (I can already hear Limbaugh scream "if the evidence is clear that Trump is unfit to lead, why are Democrats hesitating to impeach? Because it's a witch hunt; they don't actually have anything of substance").
Click to expand...
Dude I agree with you, That mother****er clearly obstructed, he should have been gone, the Dems should roll the dice and say **** the blowback.

I want them to impeach him, I am just pointing out that if the real issue is in the House it changes the dynamics of the situation. If the Senate kills it so what, opinion gets drawn on partisan lines. If Trump wins a House vote, then due process has run its course on obstruction, and Trump in a way is exonerated even though he is clearly guilty as ****. That is the political reality. After that, most of the nation will want to move on from it and Trump will run on that W, and it will benefit him.

The Dem base gets deflated by the lost. They also get agree and push the "both sides are the same" argument because they could not even impeach Trump. The minority of Dems that sabotage the play now represent the party instead of the majority that would vote to impeach. Independent swing voters get pissed at the Dems and buy into this was all the political attack and Trump's base gets energized.

If there is a House vote, most of the Dems will probably vote for impeach, none of the GOP will, and some Dems might vote not impeach for BS reason. If the House was not gerrymandered and the Dems had 25 extra seats it wouldn't matter there would be the votes, if there was not a cap on reps and the Dems advantage would be over a 100 it would be the votes, if we didn't have first past the poll elections we would have the votes, or no electoral college to worry about, and voters could get to the polls easily it would not matter because there would be the votes. But none of that is reality, our ****ty electoral system protects the cowardice of moderates that won't impeach.

I am not excusing the cowardice of the Reps that don't want to impeach. I am saying that Dem leadership calculation changes if it is really they can't get the votes in the House.

Of course situation is urgent, but like I try to tell so many people that the problem with the Dems is often not the stance the median Democrat Congressman, but the cowardice of the moderate ones. And so many party decision are based around managing that cowardice.
 
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Could you imagine being Bill Clinton right now though.

You lie to cover up an affair and as a result an investigator your AG appointed to investigate on you and a completely different matter (that you were cleared on) makes it his mission to disgrace you and get you impeached. The GOP makes it seems you completely ruined the office of the president, tries to impeach you, and it puts your millions in the hole.

Then Trump comes along and he gets to skate on worst just because his AG said he was paranoid when he was breaking the law.

Bruh, I would be next level livid. It gotta be on sight if he ever sees Barr in public.
 
RustyShackleford said:
Could you imagine being Bill Clinton right now though.

You lie to cover up an affair and as a result an investigator your AG appointed to investigate on you and a completely different matter (that you were cleared on) makes it his mission to disgrace you and get you impeached. The GOP makes it seems you completely ruined the office of the president, tries to impeach you, and it puts your millions in the hole.

Then Trump comes along and he gets to skate on worst just because his AG said he was paranoid when he was breaking the law.

Bruh, I would be next level livid. It gotta be on sight if he ever sees Barr in public.
Click to expand...


You would hope the democrats would learn from the shh the GOP pulls, but even now I doubt it and fully expect dumb shh and bending over to appease and apologize for dumb sh and getting caught up in small petty mess
 
mplsdunk said:
I don’t think most people really think both sides are they same but they have just checked out of all of it.
Click to expand...

Overexposure. 24 hour news cycles, yelling *** panel "debates" and social media have worn ppl out. Especially stupid **** like Town Halls with every damn candidate 9 months before the first primary.

People are tired of hearing about Trump and the football team of Democrats running in 2020
 
I know it's been a slow news day but this changes everything:



giphy (7).gif


OMG WHAT. Buttigieg is DONE.
 
malikdagoat said:
Overexposure. 24 hour news cycles, yelling *** panel "debates" and social media have worn ppl out. Especially stupid **** like Town Halls with every damn candidate 9 months before the first primary.

People are tired of hearing about Trump and the football team of Democrats running in 2020
Click to expand...

Exactly, and I’m sick and tired of hearing people argue over it and using the same catch phrases over and over that they hear on social media.

“Lowest black unemployment rate” **** let me know when wages rise.

Plus people are too open about politics now. Random contractors at work I don’t even know just trying to talk politics. Like bro you don’t know me.
 
whywesteppin said:
I know it's been a slow news day but this changes everything:



giphy (7).gif


OMG WHAT. Buttigieg is DONE.
Click to expand...


It would have been nice if a gay man would have been able to win the presidency.. but dude had some things that irked me

Like the whole all lives matter thing, granted he's he apologized for it now that he's running for president.. but gotta wonder if that just a PR thing.. then he empowered the over policing of certain areas which allowed the success of certain goals

Kinda like Kamala with some of her baggage.. I think it would be good for a woman to win, especially a non-white woman.. but she got shh that bothers me

I'd take anyone or thing over trump.. but I'd rather other people out of the options
 
Methodical Management said:
You're either willfully distorting the definition of "exoneration" or you slept through your introductory lecture on prosecutorial discretion and Blackstone's ratio.

It took nearly forty years for terrorists who committed the infamous Sixteenth Street Baptist Church bombing to face justice.

After a twenty month investigation, the FBI's Birmingham field office requested permission from J. Edgar Hoover to brief the local U.S. attorney and state prosecutor. Their requests were denied.

(Their investigation included information supplied by active informants in the KKK. As a relevant side note: Gary Thomas Rowe, a longtime informant, admittedly murdered a Black man during a 1963 riot, beat a photographer covering the Freedom Riders, was involved in the murder of Viola Liuzzo, participated in the bombing of Dr. King's room at the Gaston Motel, and was never charged for any of these crimes. Witch hunt?)

By the FBI's own account, "By 1965, we had serious suspects—namely, Robert E. Chambliss, Bobby Frank Cherry, Herman Frank Cash, and Thomas E. Blanton, Jr., all KKK members—but witnesses were reluctant to talk and physical evidence was lacking. Also, at that time, information from our surveillances was not admissible in court. As a result, no federal charges were filed in the ‘60s."

According to your logic, in 1965 the FBI thus exonerated "Dynamite Bob" Chambliss, Bobby Cherry, Herman Cash, and Thomas Blanton, Jr.



I refuse to believe that you're this ignorant when it comes to the law. As such, I’m of the opinion that you're being deliberately obtuse to antagonize other users.

I will remind you - again - that such behavior is considered "trolling" by any meaningful definition.

This is the precipice. You have been fairly warned. Proceed over the edge at your own peril.
Click to expand...
Great post, and some of what I was trying to get at in my initial response to dwalk. The notion that investigators coming to the determination that they don't have sufficient evidence to bring charges against someone necessarily entails "exoneration" is preposterous. Moreover, that's not even what the report is saying. The report clearly indicates that Mueller didn't even believe he could bring charges against Trump given his acceptance of the OLC's determination that criminal charges can't be brought against a sitting president, so that wasn't going to happen no matter what the investigation found. Because of this, the report is putting the onus on Congress to take things from here in terms of impeachment proceedings and potential subsequent criminal charges.

To circle back to exoneration, the report literally says "while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him." Deliberately obtuse is perhaps being a little generous here :lol:
 
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