***Official Political Discussion Thread***

RustyShackleford

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To make things clear. I agree that M4A on paper is by far the best health insurance proposal on the table in America. It is just America's politicial and economic systems make it unworkable right now.

But I do wish that our healthcare debate included other topics. Like how to lower the cost of healthcare beyond the market power argument that comes with M4A.
 

Belgium

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The payment question is can't be dodged. Trump is gonna ****ing lie his *** off about a great Healthcare plan and the media is gonna fall for it. I really don't think that Warren or Sanders are skilled enough to sell the American people on a middle class tax increase, while the other side is promising cuts.
On this point specifically, do you think it is possible for anyone to successfully sell a middle class tax increase to the American people when the other side promises cutting taxes?
 

RustyShackleford

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On this point specifically, do you think it is possible for anyone to successfully sell a middle class tax increase to the American people when the other side promises cutting taxes?
Sure, but it would take the right conditions.

A major problem is that the media in America is so trash on this subject. The American public doesn't realize tax cuts cost money, and the benefits that are promised with a tax increase never get covered.
 
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Sure, but it would take the right conditions.

A major problem is that the media in America is so trash on this subject. The American public doesn't realize tax cuts cost money, and the benefits that are promised with a tax increase never get covered.
I think another problem with this besides the media is just general education. A high school civics course should be enough to let people know that tax cuts can't possibly pay for themselves and trickle down economics never made any sense.

We also don't teach our kids about other governments. American exceptionalism holds back real discussion in this country about what we can learn from others. America is the successfullest bestest government out there and no one else's works as well and as wonderfully as ours.
 
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My apologies, it's not entirely comparable with the M4A matter. Specifically because in this example, the non-public price is something you don't want your customer to know. In the M4A case, the next best option is something you can disclose.

I'll simplify the point I wanted to make:
I do not believe there is a mutual exclusivity between fighting for the best possible ideal and keeping your options open in case that best option is unobtainable.
In general, of course I agree with you. I'm just talking about the particularities of the discussion about healthcare taking place within the context of a primary campaign. Hell, I'm sure Bernie understands M4A may not happen even if he's elected president, and when the rubber meets the road in the process of actual policymaking, negotiating and compromises may be necessary.

But let's sell hard on M4A and build the public demand for it now. While acknowledging many of the practical hurdles to passage and implementation that Rusty outlined last night, you will never know what's possible or not if you don't fight for it. I don't think that M4A gets passed a year from now, and it may never happen. But by pushing the issue, we at least have a shot to make it happen, whether it's one year, five years, or ten years from now by keeping the ball in play and building the base of support around the issue.
 
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Things are getting spicy between Bernie and Lizzy's campaigns. :lol: :lol:
i need liz to get spicy with some of the dumb shhh she gotta deal with just because she's a she (yes i know it wont happen because people would then jump to other conclusions because she's a she)

like asking her about her beauty routine like someone aint gone and found out what we need to avoid not to end up like this:

1578940326930.png

1578940354074.png
 

kdawg

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Completely unrelated but by the way, Belgium is now already up to 232 days without a functioning federal government since the election in May.

We're still far away from beating the current Guinness World Record of 541 days.
That record is currently held by
Belgium
Wait functioning government? Surely the US has the record at 1088 days?

BRB - calling Guiness world records.
 

Belgium

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Wait functioning government? Surely the US has the record at 1088 days?

BRB - calling Guiness world records.
:lol:

On a more serious note, Guinness clarified the "functioning" distinction in late 2018. Ireland went way past 541 days without a formal government but Guinness rejected their claim to the record. It was denied on the basis that Ireland could still pass laws during that time, whereas we couldn't.

I remember there were ironic celebrations in various parts of the country when we passed the previous record holder, which was Iraq.

https://www.france24.com/en/20110217-belgium-world-record-longest-period-without-government-iraq-election
Day of celebration and shame as Belgium’s deadlock breaks record
Belgium broke a world record Thursday - and beat Iraq in the process – for having gone the longest period of time without a formal government, at 249 days. The government of the country has been in deadlock since the June 13th elections last year.

AP - Many would see it as a humiliation, but for Belgium it's an excuse for a party: the country's citizens are marking 249 days without a government Thursday, a figure that they are treating as a world record.

Day to day the crisis pits the leaders of 6 million Dutch-speaking Flemings against those of 4.5 million French speakers, but people from across the country are putting aside their differences to celebrate the occasion.




 
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RustyShackleford

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Just finished listening to Booker's interview on the Erza Klein show. I was very insightful. Klein really called Booked out on how he sends mix messages, bad assumptions, and challenges him to be specific. Cory Booker is an outstanding person, he demands a lot from himself, but he lets people off the hook a lot. Dude is the best when he just presses the issue instead of trying to be lovable. Dude seems to acknowledge confrontation is essential for change of second, yet acts like it I not necessary the next.

It just leaves me think that he is just bad at the politicial triangulation need to win the Presidency. He refuses to pick a lane so it appear he is swerving all over the place. Just like Harris.

While it is completely impossible I am convinced that if every voter had a chance to interview candidates, Booker would win.

Also mans politics is way more radical that most of the field (except maybe Castro) because he doesn't run from the race issue, and others.

The fact that Castro and Booker gained no traction exposes something America, Democratic voters, and even progressives.

His point about Baby Bonds not getting traction but UBI and $15 minimum wage doing so was very insightful. America focuses too much on income inequality and not enough on wealth inequality. Booker had a line that was like "a paycheck is what helps you get by, wealth is what helps you get ahead". So from that frame, maybe $15 minimum wage and UBI are more appealing to people, including many on the left, because we are fine with helping black people and other minorities getting by, but we are not that committed to helping them get ahead.
 
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Belgium

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Lying about matters that could lead to war is always a good sign.

After trying out a bunch of different contradictory stories, now Trump says the legal justification doesn't really matter anyway.

If you question the Supreme Leader, you might as well be a terrorist
 
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Belgium

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George Nader pleads guilty to his additional child porn and sex trafficking charges. Nader was an informal adviser to the Trump campaign and cooperated in the Mueller investigation.
He is also charged with illegally funneling several million dollars to the Hillary campaign and affiliated PACs, on behalf of an unspecified country.
The foreign donation conspiracy also included a $1m donation to the Trump Inaugural Committee, made by Nader's co-conspirator in the scheme.
Nader was acting as a UAE emissary at that time but he was known to also have a good relationship with Saudi Arabia's MBS as well. Presumably the "Foreign Country A" in that indictment was the UAE. Nader hasn't pleaded guilty to those charges so far.


The prosecutors also filed a motion to seal part of the statements of fact in the plea, which means Nader remains involved in another ongoing investigation.
 
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kdawg

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:lol:

On a more serious note, Guinness clarified the "functioning" distinction in late 2018. Ireland went way past 541 days without a formal government but Guinness rejected their claim to the record. It was denied on the basis that Ireland could still pass laws during that time, whereas we couldn't.

I remember there were ironic celebrations in various parts of the country when we passed the previous record holder, which was Iraq.

https://www.france24.com/en/20110217-belgium-world-record-longest-period-without-government-iraq-election
Day of celebration and shame as Belgium’s deadlock breaks record
Belgium broke a world record Thursday - and beat Iraq in the process – for having gone the longest period of time without a formal government, at 249 days. The government of the country has been in deadlock since the June 13th elections last year.

AP - Many would see it as a humiliation, but for Belgium it's an excuse for a party: the country's citizens are marking 249 days without a government Thursday, a figure that they are treating as a world record.

Day to day the crisis pits the leaders of 6 million Dutch-speaking Flemings against those of 4.5 million French speakers, but people from across the country are putting aside their differences to celebrate the occasion.




I get what you mean - Northern Ireland has had similar issues for the last few years - just resolved this month. While they are part of the UK they also have a devolved government with certain powers but due to disagreements between the 2 largest parties they were suspended for 3 years.

Interestingly they actually got some stuff done - the civil servants just kept doing what they were doing and I heard from a few people that it was easier because they could just do sensible things and not have to discuss it with the politicians.
 
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Just finished listening to Booker's interview on the Erza Klein show. I was very insightful. Klein really called Booked out on how he sends mix messages, bad assumptions, and challenges him to be specific. Cory Booker is an outstanding person, he demands a lot from himself, but he lets people off the hook a lot. Dude is the best when he just presses the issue instead of trying to be lovable. Dude seems to acknowledge confrontation is essential for change of second, yet acts like it I not necessary the next.

It just leaves me think that he is just bad at the politicial triangulation need to win the Presidency. He refuses to pick a lane so it appear he is swerving all over the place. Just like Harris.

While it is completely impossible I am convinced that if every voter had a chance to interview candidates, Booker would win.

Also mans politics is way more radical that most of the field (except maybe Castro) because he doesn't run from the race issue, and others.

The fact that Castro and Booker gained no traction exposes something America, Democratic voters, and even progressives.

His point Baby Bonds not getting traction but UBI and $15 minimum wage doing so was very insightful. America focus too much on income inequality and not enough on wealth inequality. Booker had a line that was like "a paycheck is what helps you get by, wealth is what helps you get ahead". So from that frame, maybe $15 minimum wage and UBI are more appealing to people, including many on the left, because we are find with helping black people and other minorities getting by, but we are not that committed to helping them get ahead.
I agree that Booker was the most likable candidate in the Democratic field and that he's probably the "best person" of the bunch, so to speak. I was saying this to my people over the holidays and they were looking at me like they didn't recognize me :lol:

I don't think the policy comparisons are that straightforward, though. The $15 minimum wage has been an ascendant policy priority among Democrats nationwide in recent years—certainly before this election cycle—largely owing to major grassroots organizing campaigns around the issue (as well as soaring cost of living in many blue cities and states). This is one of the most recognizable and straightforward issues on the political left at large and is obviously rooted in a universally recognizable existing policy paradigm. To my knowledge, there has been no comparable public groundswell for Baby Bonds nor does it fit neatly into an existing box like minimum wage.

On the other hand, I don't know how much traction the UBI has really gotten. Yang has been the only candidate pushing it, and he has basically no public support. I could see UBI being more widely recognized and possibly even more widely supported than Baby Bonds, though, since UBI is basically the only thing Yang is selling and he seems insistent on staying in the race just to push it. Yang's version of UBI is ****ing trash, so to the extent that may be true, it's definitely disheartening.

I do like the Baby Bonds idea, though, and I agree that policies that address wealth inequality directly need much more attention. You made a strong case for that yourself. I hope Baby Bonds or a similar policy gets greater traction going forward.
 
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What are Biden's actual policy proposals because all I've heard from the debates is Obama name drops and trying to push the lie of bipartisanship.
 
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