QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson

[100027]

Yes.

Luck is, was, and always has been better. But Russell has been in the better org the whole time.

My dude, when they put you in the grave, hopefully long decades from now, that gravestone is going to say "This man never once admitted he was wrong."

 

[IATT]

Man cp ready to die on his mahomes stance.. and y’all think he going give up on that russ vs luck battle

Hell, has he changed his views on the gronk vs jimmy battle?

 

[junglejim]

Man cp ready to die on his mahomes stance.. and y’all think he going give up on that russ vs luck battle

Hell, has he changed his views on the gronk vs jimmy battle?

What’s the Mahomes take?

 

[IATT]

What’s the Mahomes take?

Hard to go back and find the original take on the chiefs were ok or better off with Alex smith and not trading up for dude

but this is the most recent one:

I wasn't big on Mahomes either, and I damn sure didn't agree with the Chiefs trading multiple picks to acquire him while they were in a window of winning even with Alex. They burned a year with Mahomes on the bench, not having those picks, then last year didn't work out either, and now they've lost Hunt. (they may be alright with D-Will and Shady, but Hunt was in his prime and amazing in his tenure with them)

If Mahomes can get it done this year, then ok, but if he gets to that "200+" million people are speculating, that's going to wipe out the KC roster. Then what?

And didn't the Bears trade from 3 to 2 for Mitch? Were the 9ers going to take Mitch or something? Was someone else tryin to jump the Bears? That trade DEF doesn't make any damn sense.

 

[CP1708]

My dude, when they put you in the grave, hopefully long decades from now, that gravestone is going to say "This man never once admitted he was wrong."

I appreciate the sentiment, but it’s not about right or wrong. For instance, I find it interesting that there are those that believe Russ is better because he has survived and lasted longer than Luck, but those same folks will then tell me Gronk is better than Jimmy, even tho…….



Russ is CLEARLY a better QB today than he was 6-7 years ago, but he’s still given credit for all that was done back then, like he was THIS Russ. When it is stone cold proven fact that was NOT the case. So I do not, and will not subscribe to that line of thinking.



Maybe it is me. Maybe it’s my fault for thinking too deep into how players/teams/titles/legacies work. Peyton has always been my case study. From jump, long long long ago, I developed some of my first theories on Peyton v Brady. I was on the Brady side. Peyton was the computer numbers QB, the one that everyone hyped and adored and believed to be a “machine” of a QB. And Brady just kept winning while Peyton went one and done every year. I battled many, many, many people on this very board.



Peyton finally did win a SB. During the worst playoff run of his career, when his defense finally stepped up. All those elite years, he was beaten in the postseason year after year.

Then he won his 2nd SB…….when he couldn’t even throw a spiral. Legit, he could not throw the ball straight anymore. The Bronco defense was unreal and he finally tied his brother for SB rings. No one (except me) will remember that while playing Pittsburgh he threw what would have been the game ending interception right into the defenders hands, only that guy dropped it and Denver advanced. (He catches that, Peyton is one and done once again)



I look at Russ this year, and everyone is now praising him as the MVP as he “brings his team back” from what was going to be a 28-9 game in Cleveland only Baker forces a pick in the end zone, and the refs are complete trash all day, but hey, Russ “saved the day”. Like when he threw 4 picks vs Aaron Rodgers and won. Or when Blair Walsh missed a 4 yard field goal. (it might have been more than 4 yards, like 6 or somethin) Or when he threw the Fail Mary and was somehow given a win for that. Or when he beat Drew freakin Brees with 9 completions the whole game. Or when Goff drove the Rams down the field a few weeks ago, and Greg Zeurlein somehow misses yet another chip shot FG. It’s damn uncanny. The man is similar to Brady, he has a horseshoe wedged so far up his *** it always works out.



Then I look at Matt Ryan. The “not” MVP. 1-5 QB. 350+, 80%, 4 TD’s, loses to a rookie QB. Same Matt Ryan that lost the super bowl to Tom Brady when his DB dropped an interception into Julian Edelman’s hands and when he had driven them into field goal position to win and his head coach completely wet the bed.



Brady himself, somehow (and I will never understand how) threw for 505 yards and 3 TD’s with no INT’s, and that’s a SB he LOST. Not to even mention the Helmet Catch.

But last year he won because one of Mahomes lineman wears a size 14 cleat instead of a size 13 cleat. Otherwise, Brady is picked, and we get Rams-Chiefs. Or, well, Saints-Chiefs, but…….



So I’m sorry to everyone, but Andrew Luck is thee standard for measuring Quarterbacks to draft over the past 15+ years. Elway, Peyton, Luck. Those are three forever brought up. Every GM-Scout in the league wanted Luck. They adore Russ, no question, you’re all lying if you say you would take Russ over Luck if given the choice. The point being, Luck you could build thru, using him to make others better than what they are. Russ has been in the better org (NE West) with the better coaching staff, and better talent around him since the day he was drafted. If you guys disagree with me, that’s fine. I don’t need validation. Never have. Majority of you all believe everything revolves around the QB and you all know I don’t subscribe to that theory either.

 

[IATT]

I mean we have to value russ back then, because we are well aware of the impact a running QB can have on a running game

plus has dude ever had a good oline?

plus some questionable coaching on the offensive side of the ball, whether position or the OCs

 

[SneakerProSr.]

I've reached the point in life where I ain't arguing with people over the same stuff over and over when they aren't budging on the possibility of them being wrong.

At work, on the internet, I just ain't doing it.

I just hit people with a "you make a good point man" and keep it pushing.

I'd recommend yall do the same.

 

[elpablo21]

This notion that Luck is someone you could build through and Russ you couldn't because of the franchise who took him was built better has plot holes.

Arguing based off a hypothetical that nobody will be able to prove because Russ wasn't put in the same dog **** situation as Luck is a fallacy in itself

 

[CP1708]

This notion that Luck is someone you could build through and Russ you couldn't because of the franchise who took him was built better has plot holes.

Arguing based off a hypothetical that nobody will be able to prove because Russ wasn't put in the same dog **** situation as Luck is a fallacy in itself

And that's perfectly fine for you to believe. Completely understand.

It's not what I believe.

 

[junglejim]

Andrew luck was the gold standard prospect, but there isn’t a single argument to be made that luck had a better career. Not in terms of winning, statistics, intangibles. Russ has/had the better career when luck retired even if Russ retired today

 

[elpablo21]

Just now seeing some of Kyler's throws from last Sunday

 

[CP1708]

Andrew luck was the gold standard prospect, but there isn’t a single argument to be made that luck had a better career. Not in terms of winning, statistics, intangibles. Russ has/had the better career when luck retired even if Russ retired today

Which is the same as Brady has had the better career, but is he a better QB than Rodgers? No, right? Rodgers is the better overall QB but Brady has had the better career, agree or disagree?

 

[junglejim]

Which is the same as Brady has had the better career, but is he a better QB than Rodgers? No, right? Rodgers is the better overall QB but Brady has had the better career, agree or disagree?

Having more arm talent does not equate to being a better QB over a career

I’ll be the first to say I’m blinded by Rodgers hate so my opinion on that isn’t going to be objective

It’s ridiculous to put luck in the same category as Peyton Manning with the career both had

 

[dland24]

I think what people forget about when evaluating quarterbacks is what the quarterbacks are asked to do. For Luck's entire career, he was asked to do exponentially more than Russell Wilson was. For the first few years of Russell's career, he was able to Alex Smith his way to wins (granted he would do that with 1 or 2 splash plays a game that Alex wouldnt have). But the point remains. He wasnt carrying his team. He wasnt even carrying the offense.

Luck was never afforded the opportunity his entire career to play the way Wilson did early in his career. He had no running game to rely on. He always had in the back of his mind that if the offense didnt score a large amount of points, the team had no chance of winning. He wasnt able to play game manager like Wilson was. And IMO, every decently talented QB in the league can play game manager. That isnt as difficult as having to carry an offense.

But fast forward to recent times, Russell Wilson has taken a huge leap (or two) and has become a top tier QB now. He IS carrying the offense. But what is kind of funny/interesting is that as Russell has ascended, the Seahawks have descended. In no way am I saying that Russ is the reason for that, but it is kind of interesting that the better Russ is getting, the worse the team is.

 

[junglejim]

I think what people forget about when evaluating quarterbacks is what the quarterbacks are asked to do. For Luck's entire career, he was asked to do exponentially more than Russell Wilson was. For the first few years of Russell's career, he was able to Alex Smith his way to wins (granted he would do that with 1 or 2 splash plays a game that Alex wouldnt have). But the point remains. He wasnt carrying his team. He wasnt even carrying the offense.

Luck was never afforded the opportunity his entire career to play the way Wilson did early in his career. He had no running game to rely on. He always had in the back of his mind that if the offense didnt score a large amount of points, the team had no chance of winning. He wasnt able to play game manager like Wilson was. And IMO, every decently talented QB in the league can play game manager. That isnt as difficult as having to carry an offense.

But fast forward to recent times, Russell Wilson has taken a huge leap (or two) and has become a top tier QB now. He IS carrying the offense. But what is kind of funny/interesting is that as Russell has ascended, the Seahawks have descended. In no way am I saying that Russ is the reason for that, but it is kind of interesting that the better Russ is getting, the worse the team is.

Seattle is 5-1 and Russ is probably 1a for MVP candidate

 

[dland24]

Seattle is 5-1 and Russ is probably 1a for MVP candidate

Did you miss the part where I acknowledged that Russ has become a top tier QB? Did you miss the entire premise of my post where I was talking about Russ prior to making this leap?

Really odd response to my post Jim. Almost as if you didnt even read what I said.

 

[junglejim]

But fast forward to recent But what is kind of funny/interesting is that as Russell has ascended, the Seahawks have descended. In no way am I saying that Russ is the reason for that, but it is kind of interesting that the better Russ is getting, the worse the team is.

Maybe I should have quoted what you said. Is Seattle Super Bowl bound this year? Who the hell knows. But you can’t say Seattle took this huge step back when they are 5-1

 

[va757va]

I was always Luck >> Russ crowd... only one QB could have had that NFC championship game performance and still win.... He was being carried in every sense of the word....

With the breaking up of the LOB and beast mode retiring I thought Seattle was done tbh...

Russ has gotten better and elevated his game in response... his numbers are even more impressive when you take into account the deficiencies he’s had offensively... bad playcalling, weak olines, middling skill guys...

Add in Russ might be the best off schedule QB I’ve ever seen...

Russ lapped Luck a minute ago... he won the debate...

 

[elpablo21]

But fast forward to recent times, Russell Wilson has taken a huge leap (or two) and has become a top tier QB now. He IS carrying the offense. But what is kind of funny/interesting is that as Russell has ascended, the Seahawks have descended. In no way am I saying that Russ is the reason for that, but it is kind of interesting that the better Russ is getting, the worse the team is.

Team isn't far off overall of what they used to be imo with Russ' progress to cover more flaws than before, I feel like the past couple years show that.

The main factor is obviously the defense isn't what it used to be. You lose HOFers/Depth across the board and have top picks end up in ATV crashes you're bound to take a hit . Pete/John aren't hitting on picks at the ridiculous high rate they used to and Pete has an odd refusal to adjust on what his personnel is capable of

 

[CP1708]

I guess it comes down to what you believe.

Marino is the better QB, Montana had the better career.
Manning is the better QB, Brady had the better career.
Rodgers is the better QB, Brady had the better career.
Luck is the better QB, Russ had the better career.

If you disagree with those, to each their own. No one is going to change anyone's mind. It's how we each analyze what goes into a team/offense/org/winning.

I mean, right now, Russ lost his last playoff game to Dak Prescott.
He missed the playoffs the year before that.

He's a better QB in 2017-18 than he was in 2012-13, but the winning seems to have stopped.......

He's 5-1 this year, with Zeurlein missing a FG, and the Browns getting in their own way, otherwise he's 3-3. But hey, MVP. *shrugs*

 

[junglejim]

Let me ask this. If Russ winning early in his career and being on a good team is being used against him, why aren’t the colts this year being used against Luck. Surely the Colts should have seen some sort of drop off losing a QB the same caliber as Peyton Manning? Seems like they haven’t missed a beat unless we are saying Jacoby Brissett is as good as Andrew Luck

Also, when did the winning ever come with a Andrew Luck? He made the playoffs what, two whole times in his career in one of the worst divisions of the last decade?

So if the Seahawks make the playoffs this year then Russ basically made the playoffs the same amount over the last two years as Luck did in his entire career

 

[CP1708]

Let me ask this. If Russ winning early in his career and being on a good team is being used against him, why aren’t the colts this year being used against Luck. Surely the Colts should have seen some sort of drop off losing a QB the same caliber as Peyton Manning? Seems like they haven’t missed a beat unless we are saying Jacoby Brissett is as good as Andrew Luck

Also, when did the winning ever come with a Andrew Luck? He made the playoffs what, two whole times in his career in one of the worst divisions of the last decade?

So if the Seahawks make the playoffs this year then Russ basically made the playoffs the same amount over the last two years as Luck did in his entire career

Luck made the playoffs twice only? Ok.

 

[junglejim]

Also, what’s the logic that Luck is the better QB? That he was taller and was the better college prospect?

Did he have a better arm? Debatable. Russ never had to have his backup come in on Hail Marys
Did he make better decisions? No. Luck constantly tried to force throws into coverage
Does he create plays better? No. Russ is all time at creating plays when everything else has broken down.
Is he more accurate? Statistics say no
Was he more durable? Absolutely not


I’m sure Wilson would have been taken much sooner in the draft if the NFL wasn’t stuck in the stone age looking for a 6’5” pocket statue instead of a 5’10” mobile QB.

Was Jamarcus Russell a better QB than Tom Brady? He was the better prospect

 

[DeadsetAce]

if you just dumb it down and judge QBs based on arm talent, combine numbers, prototype profile, shoulda/woulda/coulda, etc (which allows for a level playing field to judge a guy)....you're going to have Luck, Fraud, and Manning high atop your list IMO. and that's totally fine. plenty of people share that POV. and who is to say it's the wrong way to look at things.

for me, having generational talent is great. having talent and putting it together with the other side of what makes QBs great is even better

no one is going to take Manning, Luck, or Fraudgers if they had to go out and win one game. you'd be crazy IMO. but to each his own.

 

[elpablo21]

Let's talk about Gardner Mineshew or something