RIP New York Hip-Hop? (Need Some Feedback)

[billieve15]

I only have an outsider's perspective and you locals would be far better informed than me. That said, all hip-hop fans have some stake in this discussion and New York is hip-hop's birthplace and epicentre for much of its history.

It seems to me that the drill stuff coming out of Chicago nowadays (Keef, Durk, Herb, Bibby, Louie) is the spiritual successor to the hardcore NYC of the '90s. Similar subject matter, slow BPMs, dark and foreboding feel. Obviously the social conditions of the cities in their respective eras play a huge role and the loss of venues like the Tunnel might have hurt the NYC scene?

 

[trill nimley]

The only people who worry about the state of NY Hip Hop are people outside NY. As an older cat, i dont even care. What has been established is enough for me survive without new material. The ones that repped the city the hardest made timeless music.

The first part is false. Plain and simple. I was in the X chillin yesterday and there's a clear void and we were discussing just that. That feeling that existed since hip-hop's inception is gone, NY doesn't have a presence or appearance in hip-hop. As someone who's been a fan since the late 80s we're in a space this past 8 years that not only NYC hasn't experienced but the entire culture. Imagine country music with no artists from the south. Have we become that comfortable with our culture being erased in the western world that we shouldn't worry about it happening in hip-hop? That's absurd. And that feeling is addressed in "Mortal Man" when Pac says after 30 America beats a black man down to the point he won't fight back.

As for the 2nd part, so you're telling me today, October 1 2015 you will be able to survive without ever getting an elite level of music out of the east coast? Are you serious? As good as the music has been, that's absurd, because the south ain't satisfied. The west ain't satisfied. The midwest isn't satisfied. They have great legacies as well, but they are building on that. NYC is good with its legacy and now we're free to kick back and hang our collective hat on a 25 year legacy in a art that may last the rest of our lives? You're buggin. I want the east to be around just as much as I want the art to be around. If hip-hop ended today would I be satisfied with the 30 or so years we've had, yea I love it but I want it to keep goin, and those that don't are just as bad for the culture as those that exploit us. Because that shows a lack of concern for the culture, and it's preservation, and survival. So if the entire culture took on this, "I'm to old to worry" hip-hop would be gone in 10 years. We'd be disco, and this is us talkin. TRUE fans of the culture, not executives that exploit it, we are hip-hop and we bout to just lay down cause we experienced GREATNESS?

So I'm sure we're all sports fans, would anybody be satisfied with their team NEVER winning another chip? To just be like, "the 4 Super Bowls the Giants have is enough, I don't care if they ever win again". Would a true fan say that? So would a true fan and supporter of art say they can live off of past years greatness? Could you live without there ever being a great gangster movie cause The Godfather, Goodfellas, etc. People get better, bigger, faster, stronger. Life's about progression. NY not progressing and now people that are supposed to be OG are OK with it, so why should someone born in the 90s even want to respect an aspect of a culture that it's gate keepers have more or less given up on?

The last elite class of MCs NY had was the class of 98. So you're saying from Melle Mel, Kurtis Blow & Caz in the late 70s/80s to 98 that 20 year period is enough for you? We've been mediocre almost as long as we were ELITE (and there was times during that 18 years where NY played second fiddle to the west), in 5 years if this continues we will be a region that was wack for a longer period of time then it was good. Not a legacy I want. And let's not act as if the majority of the 80s there was an equal playing field for all regions, there wasn't, hip-hop was NY centric. For a time it was just the Uptown/Bronx foreal. If my memory serves me correct Kane was the first GREAT MC to emerge from Brooklyn, I mean that via status, skill, ability, musical output etc. this is what 87/88? Queens had RunDMC early 80s. Wu put Staten on to the masses in 93.

When you look at NY legacy it's a lot of GREATNESS in a short period of time. In my opinion the playing field in hip-hop became even in 1998, is it a coincidence that NY has not had an ELITE class of artists since cats from all regions started to get somewhat equal opportunities? As a lifelong hip-hop fan, contributor, journalist, etc it concerns me, and I genuinely question anyone from anywhere that isn't bothered. I don't think the forefathers would want that. People died for this, Ns got electrocuted plugging in sound systems to light poles. We just gonna forget about them? The martyrs of this, the brothers that died in gang warfare that was the catalyst for the arts inception? Did Reemo die in vein? Ns been run over by trains in REAL life, closed caskets for this culture. To say you can live with what's been done and be fine is irresponsible to me.

 

[Master Zik]

To the thread title pretty much when it comes to mainstream representation. It's part of why I barely have a presence in the music forum anymore (since this place is largely the hip hop forum and I said like 7 years ago this forum's quality will always reflect the quality of mainstream hip hop music).

Not that NYC's prominence is directly tied to it but a lot of this plays a part in the sorry state Hip Hop is in overall. Ppl can say other regions won but my subjective view of the music that dominates the mainstream audience is 95% trash.

I won't say though that NYC rap is dead forever. There's always the chance that a group can come on the scene and run **** like Wu or a truly exceptional artist can get recognition like a Nas or gain that crossover appeal like Big.


Strong OP Nay, a lot of what you said was on point as far as documenting this downfall. Don't know when you did but glad to have you back even though it's dead as **** around here

 

[billieve15]

You guys had Chinx, Max and Stack in the last decade though. The sort of cult artists who will be remembered in years to come.

 

[trill nimley]

And lets not airbrush history.

NY started that not liking someone because of where there from. Thinking everything from Queens is wack cause you're from Bronx. Or showing favoritism to Brooklyn cause that's where you from.

No one in Cleveland is gonna say I don't like Boosie cause he from Baton Rouge and not N.O. People in DC aren't saying I don't like UGK cause they from Port Arthur and not Houston. NYC started that. You were NEVER supposed to care where someone was from as to if you would like/respect them it's supposed to be because of the perspective they provided. The South Bronx wasn't a place you wanted to be unless you absolutely needed to, hip-hop became our way to shed light on a situation the general public wasn't aware of. Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan being in the South Bronx was the first time 98% of the world could see what was going on there, hip-hop is what exposed those realities with honesty, passion, love, knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

Even with ageism within hip-hop. KRS told Melle Mel he was essentially too old, mind you Mel isn't even 30 at this time. Kool Moe Dee pulled a similar card on Busy Bee.

The reason why there's poppin artists from all over is because people wanna hear their perspective as well. Just because you're not from a major city doesn't make your story any less important but for years NY told us that. Part of the main reason LA wasn't seeing eye to eye with us in the 90s is because of this attitude. I think people still care very much where you're from and that's why artist today remind us with the regularity that has ALWAYS existed. I know about Fayetteville because of Cole. I know about Meridian, Mississippi because of KRIT. Same way I knew about QB because of Mobb & NaS. That's what this art represents, our communication as a people. Where you're from is important, but it doesn't make you any better or worse.

But when you have albums named 'Crenshaw', '2014 Forest Hills Drive', 'Harlem World', all the way to 'Straight Outta Compton' where you're from in hip-hop is important, but your talent is what should be the deciding factor, and for years that wasn't the case in large part because of NY fans.

 

[Master Zik]

I dunno. I don't completely agree about the lack of talent stuff.

NYC rappers are taking that southern sound for a reason. It makes no sense if the next Tribe comes along and doesn't get the support of NYC fans. The mainstream sound has shifted. There's no guarantee coming with a NYC sound updated to match what's going on now with dope charismatic lyrics would bring support from the radio or elsewhere. You need a NYC rapper to get a grassroots movement like Wiz did to see if things could change from that stand point.

I think there's plenty talent around but they're not getting shown the same amount of love cuz they aint doing the same type of popular music. Has nothing to do with work ethic cuz there's dozens of rappers grinding in NYC.

Pretty much unless an undeniable great(s) comes along with a movement things won't change from the current status quo. That may be a NYC problem when it comes to our mentality of expecting greatness and what we vibe with.

I see a lot of ppl not from here constantly blaming the fact that we never allied and united together. That was cuz we never really needed to. Everybody was good to great and doing their own thing. Nobody was THAT much better for constantly collaborating. That was just dope **** for tours and concerts. Plus we thrived off beef just as much as a remix with top 5 best rappers on a track.

 

[Peep Game]

Love all the responses in here. A lot are very on point. Always thought a major part of NY's downfall in hip hop was while they were hating on one another along with hating on outsiders, everybody else showed love to each other. One of the biggest perpetrators of that was 50 Cent. Sure, he was pushing G-Unit, but you can't antagonize artists in your own city for years and think there's no consequence. Dude can basically only collab with G-Unit and has to hitch his ride to Kidd Kidd. Meanwhile, (with a couple exceptions) Game spent most of his career building relationships, which still extends to today, as a lot of his albums look like compilations. People actually like working with him, and it seems like fans anticipate his stuff more than 50, something I wouldn't have thought years ago.

 

[illscan]

And lets not airbrush history.

NY started that not liking someone because of where there from. Thinking everything from Queens is wack cause you're from Bronx. Or showing favoritism to Brooklyn cause that's where you from.

No one in Cleveland is gonna say I don't like Boosie cause he from Baton Rouge and not N.O. People in DC aren't saying I don't like UGK cause they from Port Arthur and not Houston. NYC started that. You were NEVER supposed to care where someone was from as to if you would like/respect them it's supposed to be because of the perspective they provided.

At the risk of sounding bitter, you're never going to catch me shedding a tear over NYC getting kicked while they're down for this exact reason. Yall dudes behave that way habitually & you garner no sympathy from me. As much as I'm not a fan of Southern type rap music............ I kind of admire the way they rightfully pulled a cultural mutiny. Yall dudes were never, ever going to give them any air to breath with this hip hop thing so they stopped asking & just took it.
NYC hip hop from its inception to around 97-98 is undeniable, but you can't behave in such an obnoxious, provincial manner & have the nerve to not produce quality material.

 

[flatbushfiyah23]

This has always perplexed me as well.

Yeah man its perplexing but when that is questioned especially on NT, nobody wants to discuss it.

 

[trill nimley]

Yeah man its perplexing but when that is questioned especially on NT, nobody wants to discuss it.

In actuality, in the past 20 years in hip-hop how much of that time was NY the TOP selling region? Less than maybe 7 years, that's being generous. I don't think that's the defying factor of influence. That was the west coast's issue with NY Ice Cube first 4 albums sold much more than KRS, Rakim, Kane, or LL's but the NY influence still existed in hip-hop. Even when NaS, Wu and BIG brought the coast back, West coast was outselling the east back then but no one would have said they owned the culture.

The #s will be what they will be. Juvenile, Master P was selling more than Pun, Nore, X and them back then

 

[Magic33]

And lets not airbrush history.

NY started that not liking someone because of where there from. Thinking everything from Queens is wack cause you're from Bronx. Or showing favoritism to Brooklyn cause that's where you from.

No one in Cleveland is gonna say I don't like Boosie cause he from Baton Rouge and not N.O. People in DC aren't saying I don't like UGK cause they from Port Arthur and not Houston. NYC started that. You were NEVER supposed to care where someone was from as to if you would like/respect them it's supposed to be because of the perspective they provided. The South Bronx wasn't a place you wanted to be unless you absolutely needed to, hip-hop became our way to shed light on a situation the general public wasn't aware of. Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan being in the South Bronx was the first time 98% of the world could see what was going on there, hip-hop is what exposed those realities with honesty, passion, love, knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

Even with ageism within hip-hop. KRS told Melle Mel he was essentially too old, mind you Mel isn't even 30 at this time. Kool Moe Dee pulled a similar card on Busy Bee.

The reason why there's poppin artists from all over is because people wanna hear their perspective as well. Just because you're not from a major city doesn't make your story any less important but for years NY told us that. Part of the main reason LA wasn't seeing eye to eye with us in the 90s is because of this attitude. I think people still care very much where you're from and that's why artist today remind us with the regularity that has ALWAYS existed. I know about Fayetteville because of Cole. I know about Meridian, Mississippi because of KRIT. Same way I knew about QB because of Mobb & NaS. That's what this art represents, our communication as a people. Where you're from is important, but it doesn't make you any better or worse.

But when you have albums named 'Crenshaw', '2014 Forest Hills Drive', 'Harlem World', all the way to 'Straight Outta Compton' where you're from in hip-hop is important, but your talent is what should be the deciding factor, and for years that wasn't the case in large part because of NY fans.

You're generalizing a little.

I listened to west coast rap. A lot of people in New York listened to West Coast rap.

And the whole Busy Bee/Kool Moe Dee/KRS...you have to take in to consideration hip hops age. It was new and was for the youth. Hip hop prior to the 90's, you basically had a 5 year shelf life before you were too old. And hip hop was based around competition. What's the first insult I hear up here? Age

To put things in perspective, Run DMC were done by their mid 20's. I don't think they were even 30 when Down With The King Came out that gave them some more life. Now, nearly ever major rapper is over 30.

So you have to take in to account how new rap was. It was done by kids. So it had a adolescent mindset. You weren't that welcomed in BK from other boroughs, so why would you be accepting of the artist from another? You're 14 or 15.

 

[Magic33]

I dunno. I don't completely agree about the lack of talent stuff.

NYC rappers are taking that southern sound for a reason. It makes no sense if the next Tribe comes along and doesn't get the support of NYC fans. The mainstream sound has shifted. There's no guarantee coming with a NYC sound updated to match what's going on now with dope charismatic lyrics would bring support from the radio or elsewhere. You need a NYC rapper to get a grassroots movement like Wiz did to see if things could change from that stand point.

I think there's plenty talent around but they're not getting shown the same amount of love cuz they aint doing the same type of popular music. Has nothing to do with work ethic cuz there's dozens of rappers grinding in NYC.

Pretty much unless an undeniable great(s) comes along with a movement things won't change from the current status quo. That may be a NYC problem when it comes to our mentality of expecting greatness and what we vibe with.

I see a lot of ppl not from here constantly blaming the fact that we never allied and united together. That was cuz we never really needed to. Everybody was good to great and doing their own thing. Nobody was THAT much better for constantly collaborating. That was just dope **** for tours and concerts. Plus we thrived off beef just as much as a remix with top 5 best rappers on a track.

Sounding like Joey Badass isn't going to get you *******, local acclaim or a bentley. Compare the quality of women at a Bronson show versus Future.

On top of that, being like Future takes less talent. That's why you have people like Fetty Wap saying they just started making music a year or two ago.

You listen to Future and think I can do that. That doesn't happen when you listen to Nas.

 

[trill nimley]

You're one person tho. The majority of NY hip-hop fans wasn't bumpin west coast ****, especially not after the east coast's reemergence in the mid 90s. I remember quite vividly. Ns was not bumpin E 40, Rappin 4 Tay, Mac Mall, South Central Cartel, Young Murder Squad (one of my favs growing up), stop it. The average NY hip-hop fan did not listen to west coast **** until they had no other choice. They played Snoop, Dre and the guys about 6-8 years older than me were BIG on Ice Cube.

First they hated on the west for what was later called gangsta rap, and then the east vs west. Ice Cube was pretty vocal about this in the 90s, about having hit records throughout the country then be in NY and they simply wouldn't play the records.

KRIT got booed in NY for doin "Country ****" just a few years ago.

 

[trill nimley]

Joey Badass is just doing something that was done 20 years ago. I don't want to hear you making New York hallway rap in 2015. I lived that already and those that did it made AMAZING music.

He needs to make 2015 Brooklyn music. When I hear Dave Ea$t it sounds like NYC today. I feel like Rowdy Rebel was gonna be someone special for gettin a spotlight back on the city because he makes a brand of music that people everywhere are already listenin to, but their whole swag is Flatbush. When I walk out my building that's what I see.

There's a gang war goin on in Flatbush, Crown Heights and there's no voice for it. If you not out here or involved in the street you prolly wouldn't know. Where as in Chicago the same thing is going on and you have about 50 different guys under 21 narrating it. The new Lil Herb project is AMAZING. He sounds like the young boys in my neighborhood, he's telling their story. Troy Ave is still regurgitating that early 90s drug dealer swag, that's coo but that's yesteryear and it's ALREADY been done much better by others.

 

[Peep Game]

KRIT got booed in NY for doin "Country ****" just a few years ago.

Which clearly showed they never listened to any of his other music before. I can understand then booing OJ Da Juiceman, but KRIT? Nah. That's why they've been cursed with the Knicks.

 

[Magic33]

Love all the responses in here. A lot are very on point. Always thought a major part of NY's downfall in hip hop was while they were hating on one another along with hating on outsiders, everybody else showed love to each other. One of the biggest perpetrators of that was 50 Cent. Sure, he was pushing G-Unit, but you can't antagonize artists in your own city for years and think there's no consequence. Dude can basically only collab with G-Unit and has to hitch his ride to Kidd Kidd. Meanwhile, (with a couple exceptions) Game spent most of his career building relationships, which still extends to today, as a lot of his albums look like compilations. People actually like working with him, and it seems like fans anticipate his stuff more than 50, something I wouldn't have thought years ago.

He stunted Banks career, because Banks was friends with other dudes. Same with Buck. G-Unit would have had more longevity if it wasn't for 50. He was a gift and a curse. It was funny how he did the Jeezy song and was all of a sudden like I don't know why we didn't do it sooner. Same with Fab. You know exactly why. Now that you're cold you want to work with other people.

Game, Fat Joe, Busta and Nore are the kings of relationships. I think it will also pay off for Wayne, because he worked with any and everyone despite how large he was. And he didn't do it like Drake to make sure he stays hot and talked about.

You're one person tho. The majority of NY hip-hop fans wasn't bumpin west coast ****, especially not after the east coast's reemergence in the mid 90s. I remember quite vividly. Ns was not bumpin E 40, Rappin 4 Tay, Mac Mall, South Central Cartel, Young Murder Squad (one of my favs growing up), stop it. The average NY hip-hop fan did not listen to west coast **** until they had no other choice. They played Snoop, Dre and the guys about 6-8 years older than me were BIG on Ice Cube.

First they hated on the west for what was later called gangsta rap, and then the east vs west. Ice Cube was pretty vocal about this in the 90s, about having hit records throughout the country then be in NY and they simply wouldn't play the records.

KRIT got booed in NY for doin "Country ****" just a few years ago.

I didn't listen to them, because I didn't think they were good.

But artist I liked, Spice 1, King Tee, Quik, Eitht/CMW, Souls Of Mischief/Hiero

It wasn't just about coast, Biggie liked Outkast. He thought E-40 was wack.

I liked Common, I didn't like Twista or Crucial Conflict

Cube was full of it, and Tupac even touched on that. For someone to proclaim how against people were of him, why did he go The Bomb Squad. And why did Das work with him. New York radio wasn't playing New York rap like that outside of after 8pm.

 

[Magic33]

Which clearly showed they never listened to any of his other music before. I can understand then booing OJ Da Juiceman, but KRIT? Nah. That's why they've been cursed with the Knicks.

Why can't people just not like you because they don't like the music or it wasn't the right audience for that music?

I don't like Krit or Currency like a lot of you.

 

[trill nimley]

South Central Cartel was DOPE tho.

He went to Bomb Squad in like 1990 tho. Worked with Das on 'The Predator' that was late 92.

Bow Down came out in 1996. That's a lifetime in hip-hop.


Plus.
Hip hop STARTED in the west..

 

[SoleByThePound]

Cube was full of it, and Tupac even touched on that. For someone to proclaim how against people were of him, why did he go The Bomb Squad. And why did Das work with him. New York radio wasn't playing New York rap like that outside of after 8pm.

Cube was not full of it for his claims though. He reached his observation the years following his debut album, which the Bomb Squad produced and his collaboration with Das on The Predator album. Cube had love for NY, but he felt the same love wasn't being shown back by the DJ's in NY. If you remember he didn't start vocalizing his frustration until 1996 when Bow Down dropped.

 

[Maximus Meridius]

One of the biggest perpetrators of that was 50 Cent. Sure, he was pushing G-Unit, but you can't antagonize artists in your own city for years and think there's no consequence. Dude can basically only collab with G-Unit and has to hitch his ride to Kidd Kidd. Meanwhile, (with a couple exceptions) Game spent most of his career building relationships, which still extends to today, as a lot of his albums look like compilations. People actually like working with him, and it seems like fans anticipate his stuff more than 50, something I wouldn't have thought years ago.

50 came through like hurricanes do - Hov

50's wanted to **** on everybody. At that time he could do that cuz he was on top and G-Unit was the hottest thing going but you can't stay at the top forever. His kill everything attitude helped him in short term but it hurt him in the long term as far as his music. There was no reason for him to take shots at the Lox and Nas.

 

[Magic33]

Cube was not full of it for his claims though. He reached his observation the years following his debut album, which the Bomb Squad produced and his collaboration with Das on The Predator album. Cube had love for NY, but he felt the same love wasn't being shown back by the DJ's in NY. If you remember he didn't start vocalizing his frustration until 1996 when Bow Down dropped.

No, Cube tried to piggy back off that for relevancy, because he was cold musically.

Tupac spoke on that.

Tupac had a problem with individuals.

Cube tried to piggy back off some coast problem. If you have a problem with the radio, you need to speak on the radio. Not a coast, when you were embraced probably more so than any other artist from another region.

And Cube's actions show in how his relationships with Kam, Da Lench Mob, WC and Mack 10 turned out.

 

[pretty tony]

Interesting thread. Agree and disagree with many points.

Most ridiculous thing in here tho is yg and mustard not sounding west coast tho lol.

 

[SoleByThePound]

No, Cube tried to piggy back off that for relevancy, because he was cold musically.

Tupac spoke on that.

Tupac had a problem with individuals.

Cube tried to piggy back off some coast problem. If you have a problem with the radio, you need to speak on the radio. Not a coast, when you were embraced probably more so than any other artist from another region.

And Cube's actions show in how his relationships with Kam, Da Lench Mob, WC and Mack 10 turned out.

I agree that Cube was cold musically when he formed the WSC. That doesn't diminish his claims though, we all know Cube was never shy about voicing his opinion either. After all, that's why everyone gravitated towards him for all of those years during N.W.A and after he left them. I wasn't a fan of his WSC approach though, because like his beef with N.W.A he alienated Hip Hop fans. His claim regarding NY DJ's not playing West Coast artist had merit, the way he took it upon himself of announcing it wasn't the best method. You have to admit though, it clearly worked for him, WC & Mack 10.

As for how his relationships turned out with past crew members and friends, you nor I know the real story behind that. Unless you personally know those grown men, your view on it is skewed.

 

[onetrust]

You're one person tho. The majority of NY hip-hop fans wasn't bumpin west coast ****, especially not after the east coast's reemergence in the mid 90s. I remember quite vividly. Ns was not bumpin E 40, Rappin 4 Tay, Mac Mall, South Central Cartel, Young Murder Squad (one of my favs growing up), stop it. The average NY hip-hop fan did not listen to west coast **** until they had no other choice. They played Snoop, Dre and the guys about 6-8 years older than me were BIG on Ice Cube.

First they hated on the west for what was later called gangsta rap, and then the east vs west. Ice Cube was pretty vocal about this in the 90s, about having hit records throughout the country then be in NY and they simply wouldn't play the records.

KRIT got booed in NY for doin "Country ****" just a few years ago.

YO! You are OFFICIALLY THAT dude for knowing these two groups and you from the East Coast.

"East side, west side, ____ better recognize, it's the nationwide young murda squad!"

And the SCC were my dudes, no homo. The original Prodigy and Havoc for me. No diss to Mobb Deep.

 

[trill nimley]

No, Cube tried to piggy back off that for relevancy, because he was cold musically.

Tupac spoke on that.

Tupac had a problem with individuals.

Cube tried to piggy back off some coast problem. If you have a problem with the radio, you need to speak on the radio. Not a coast, when you were embraced probably more so than any other artist from another region.

And Cube's actions show in how his relationships with Kam, Da Lench Mob, WC and Mack 10 turned out.

Lethal Injection wasn't as well received as Doggystyle or The Chronic but it did good #s, and he was coming off 3 consecutive classics. He also had Friday and it's soundtrack were hits. So to say HE was "cold" is a bit harsh. Did you hear '14 Shots To The Dome'? That's the definition of someone being cold. Every early coast artist from Cubes class was pretty much done by 93. KRS being the exception, and later LL & G Rap reinvented themselves to an extent to fit the mid 90s. It was definitely a time of transition. A new class was moving in and they had an established sound, Cube had to reinvent himself or become a dinosaur like Rakim, Kane, Shan and about 95% of the east did.

WestSide Connection was a hit album without a doubt. And other than movies he had Mack 10 as his artist. What east coast rapper from Cubes era had a label and a artist that actually carved out a career?

But you know Cube. He always has an agenda and he'll create a chip on his shoulder if it doesn't exist. But in this case, his gripe was totally legitimate.