Serious Discusssion (Paging ABH, Illionaire, NostrandAve, Ben Baller):The State of Hip Hop Music

[ill legal operation]

Originally Posted by Barack 0drama


I want to be the first artist to market myself in that same fashion. Do something creative and interesting to get people involved and excited.

"What you've been doing there, I see it."

 

[tmukg21]

i got that figure out some rap mag, i can't figure out which though, its Jay interview and they where talking money and album artists budgets

peep this please
http://www.ascap.com/jam/...f/Music%20and%20Money.pdf

 

[youngjordan23]

illphillip wrote:

Even the TI, Waynes, Nas, Outkast etc. were at their peak making female friendly Pop records that crossed over.

You've also got a gang of dudes in here talking business and music. When the female is the core consumer on a large scale. That is a startling reality as an artist when you need to monetize your music. Hip Hop has clearly moved in that direction.

Just as a fan, from a cultural standpoint, I don't see timelessness in current Hip Hop music. I'm not sure what that record that cats will be listening to in 20 years is. Is it Lollipop? Is it Whatever You Like? I could maybe see "Live Your Life". Did the Diplomats make a timeless record? Did 50? Maybe In The Club? Did Boosie?

I see where your coming from with the thought but at this point of the game not even the girls could save u. Look At hiphop right now and u could only nameabout 5 dudes who can go platinum and only about 2-3 are a guarentee. Say an artist like plies who is directly marketed to females he's still topping outat 300k max and that's with all the video play and Famous R&B features. I Agree that the label will make a bit of money off him now but he will becompletely useless in 1-2 years. Record labels can't survive off ringtone money and digital sales.

I feel like the labels are shooting themselves in the foot by pushing these"flavor of the week rappers" because they are losing out on theoppurtunity to make a star. Look at people like Jay, 50, EM, Dre, Kanye, T.I etc the one thing they all have in common is they were given time to develop andalthough the benifits weren't reaped early think how much money they have made there labels now. These are guys who are always gonna draw interest becausethey have a giant fanbase that was built from the ground up.

P.S Rappers should start promoting mixtapes like albums

In the past few years we've saw the addition of the "street" Single for a lot of rap acts and i feel like labels should capitalize on that.Instead of artist spitting all over other cats beats go out and find some unknown producers and release the mixtape in retail before the actual album. Then letthat build anticipation for the actual album.

Im thinking sort of what amalgam did with Joe Budden, but on a larger Scale. By doing this prelude to the album it gives people an opportunity to understandthe artist before the real album comes

 

[0cks]

Originally Posted by NO ESCAPIN THIS


^ Cuz A&R`s aren't the same anymore . A&R`s used to be real industry heads that were actually involved in the culture and music . Nowadays you have some random college grad that doesn't know anything about the music and it`s history, controlling your career . This game has pushed away alot of the trendsetters and basically made it into a crap shoot (hot or not after ONE song) . Grass root movements are gone , college radio is no longer a barometer . The DJ is controlled by big business aswell-you HAVE to saturate the airwaves with the same songs over and over because your programming director and radio station is being fed cash by these labels .

Most young kids don't look up to the breakdancer , graffiti artist , beat boxer , writers, authors , photographers , the true pioneers anymore ... this was all esssential into forming cats style and respecting the artform . Then you have the newer generation of artists and fans that suffer from a lack of orginality and creativity . They are sold on facades , dictate their entire style by what is "cool" on the internet (look on NT...everyone looks the same , tries to speak the same , jock eachothers steez). People stopped living , kids stopped playing on their blocks , expericing things for themselves . Individualism is no longer admired , people rather pay attention to all these Blog sites that have further turned things into soap operas and controversy , so they can get clicks and recieve that advertising money . Hip Hop used to speak to the people , it was an instrument of struggle , poverty , expression , a voice of the inner city . It used to question the fakeness around us , now it is the fakness that is us. The question remains though , when will people stop buying into these gimmicks ?. There used to be a line where once it was crossed , you were gone . Now it`s accepted to sell your soul , all these younger people need to stop buying into the hype . This ALL has affected the music , people keep waiting for it to turn around BUT Vinyl is dying , graf is corporate , Freestyling is done , MPC`s are forgein objects , Record diggin is dead , Scratching , mixing , and blends ? What are those ...

Damn, that's real

 

[thunderchunk69]

Originally Posted by NO ESCAPIN THIS

There used to be a line where once it was crossed , you were gone . Now it`s accepted to sell your soul

For the paper chase;
sacrifice your talent, lose all your sense of taste, now you're off balance.
fallin from your pedestal, the principal, the rhythm and worth
you went from selling crack to blacks to selling yourself on wax then back to square 1 after tax.


The quicker you sellout and become an entrepreneur, the quicker you're a rolemodel, no matter if your start up money came from drugs or artistexploitation.

 

[jefffort5]

damn..this is a good discussion..but i gotta go back and read everybody's responses..

 

[untitled]

Originally Posted by true 3 blue

Artist development is dead. Labels want their artists to already be pre-packaged and ready to be released so they only have to do 50% of the work and make almost 100% of the profit. You have to have a built-in buzz, fanbase, a healthy catalog of material, and potential hit singles already on stash before they'll even look at you.

That's a bad look my dude, so let me ask you this.

Why bother with rap though? I mean, I know you (and basically all rappers for that matter) love rap but when you see the business side of things why bother getting involved? Especially as a new artist.
not to sound passé but anyone pursuing a career in something so unstable as music would have to be for the love

especially now.

 

[nikeflightposite]

answer to all the questions posed in this thread

 

[harlem on the rise]

The game done changed SOOO much, I'm sure most of us are in our mid-late 20s/Early 30s so we've seen A LOT change within hip hop culture, businessaside. I remember growing up, before I knew I was an MC I tried DJing

, breakdancing, Graf also, it wasn't because it was profitable it was just theallure of hip hop culture was THAT strong, I'm sure we've all tried 1 or 2. So where it was in the early 90s where EVERYone wanted to become part ofthe "culture", now in 09 the hip hop culture is 2nd nature, its something you can't escape. But now the same way we all wanted to implement EVERYelement of hip hop in our lives, these NEW Ns (to the industry I'm prolly one of them) all want a piece of the BUSINESS, and whatever effect that has onthe "culture" weather it be good or bad now takes the backseat to a dollar amount.

It starts with US, right here, right now. Hip hop heads have been questioning the direction of the game for over a decade now, but now we're at a pointwhere the OLD mold HAS to be broken in order for us to move on and have a form of purity in hip hop culture in 10/15 years from now. Hip hop went from OURvoice, to THE voice . . . But in the process REAL Ns got leftt behind, and those voices are now being controlled by higher powers.

As Jewels was saying, the marketing scheme is where your success will lie. You could make the absolute BEST music, but if only 10 people have access it doesyou know good. Through the internet its up to us to use this tool to make my MIC as loud as 50 Cent, TI or Lil Wayne and by that Is how do I as an unknownartist get my music on the same level as these cats, what forum?? The people who listen to their +%%+ are no different from those that legally obtain their favrock/country album.

How does Country music break new artists?? How often?? Where did Taylor Swift come from?? Hip hop culture has helped sell EVERYthing from football &basketball jerseys, jeans, sneakers, but now we can't even sell the music that molds the image that is envied by damn near all . . . What the @$*! is thedeal??

 

[yungmatt]

Good Post

 

[lesfamilia]

Everyone's made some great points. If nothing else though, I agree with Jewels in saying the old label establishment needs to be gone and we needsomething new and different. Viral marketing is where it is at. And like Tone said, whether acts like Drake and Wale do well or not will very well determinehow similar acts are handled in the future. I remember reading a comment someone posted on here last year in reference to Wale: "Oh, everyone onlineloves him, but when I go tell the dudes around the way about him, they're like 'Who?'" It's funny, but kind of true in a sad way. If Iwent to a barbershop downtown right now I really can't count on people talking about Wale...

 

[alchemiss]

People are tired of the bull. They want artists they can relate to, no matter what the content.. There's a movement thats been goin on in NY.. and peopleJUST catching up now.. I don't feel like typing all but please check this blog:

http://melo-x.blogspot.co...n-pt-hiphop-hipsters.html

 

[True Blues]

The convenience, affordability and expansiveness of the Internet has increased consumer accessibility in all spheres. Essentially all forms of media (print,film, art, music) can be accessed instantaneously via the Internet at relative cost, and all it takes is the click of a button. As a rational consumer, this isthe ideal medium. After all, what rational being would choose to pay to satisfy their demands, when they can do so for free? None. In a rational economicworld, we would not be having this discussion-- the entertainment industry in the traditional sense would simply cease to exist.

But we don't. We are not all rational consumers, and we do not obey all economic theory. As such, we place value in certain items and feel such goods andservices warrant compensation.

Case in point: Radiohead's 2007 release "In Rainbows" which was released digitally at a price of the customers choosing. A rational consumerwould simply select $0, and download the album for free. Interestingly, however, not all consumers did. In fact, prices varied quite considerably (The mostanyone I know personally paid was $25.00). [Aside: According to WSJ estimates, the album was downloaded 1.2 million times in the first two days. If that werephysical copies, "In Rainbows" would have gone Platinum in two friggin' days!]

So why did people choose to pay for the album when they could simply download it for free? Because they value Radiohead's music, and feel the band shouldbe justly compensated for their work. This is true for all industries. Why are you willing to pay for a premium for Nike shoes or designer jeans? Because, inyour eyes, these items are worth more. This is done through marketing, companies appealing to targets, blah, blah blah. This is all obvious. What isinteresting about the Radiohead case, however, is that by putting the album online they avoided any label affiliation and thus, did not promote "InRainbows" to the masses through a large-scale marketing campaign. And yet, consumers were still willing to pay for their product.

What does this say about entertainment, and music, specifically? In order to sell copies, and generate revenue, the consumer must value the artist's work.They must be so connected to the artist that they are willing to shell out $10.00-$15.00 for a plastic disc which they could otherwise download digitally forfree. They must value the artist's work more than any other purchase at that moment. This is why you see so many music reality television shows: theyconnect the consumer personally to the artist, efffectively marketing the personality-- not the music-- to the artist.

The problem with hip-hop, however, is that the target demographic does not value music in comparison to other items. I hate to speak in generalities (and Iknow I'll probably get flamed), but hip-hop is targeted at predominatly lower-income, black consumers. I mean, let's be real: in this economy, thisdemographic does not possess a great deal of disposable income. When given the option of $15.00 for a Jadakiss album that could be downloaded for free, or$15.00 towards food or rent, which would you choose? I hope not the CD. This is why Nickelback, Taylor Swift, and Carrie Underwood do 1 million copies, becausetheir target market has more disposable income and is willing to throw $15.00 at their new CD. This is also why every hip-hop album to go Platinum in the lastdecade or so has done so on the backs of white, suburban teenagers. 50, 2Pac, Jay-Z, Kanye, Lil' Wayne-- all appeal to suburbia and thus, have sold well.

The effect is systemic throughout the industry. From a supply side, I cannot blame A&R's for signing some of these one-hit-wonder hip-hop acts. Givenlow album sales across the industry (hip-hop especially), artists are more apt to generate revenue from ringtone or single sales, than a solid album. I'msure many A&R's want to sign genuinely talented artists, but it is a gamble. Think about Kanye: he was passed on by A&R's for years until Damefinally decided to sign him-- and even that took convincing. Look at him now. I would agree, with talented artists you can build a core fanbase, and generateconsistent sales over the length of career, but in an industry that is defined by return and results, is it really worth the gamble? The music business is verymuch comparable to the stock market in that sense as everything is speculative. Think of artists as invesments: you have long-term investments with consistent,but low-rates of return; short-term plays with high rate of return, high rate of failure; and some anomalies. As an investment banker, I have to choosebetween these different plays. The same could be said for an A&R. Unfortunately, more often than not, A&R's, like bankers, choose those plays withthe greatest potential yields even if they aren't the most sound investments.

That said, labels are not off the hook entirely. Yes, music is a business, but what happened to artistic integrity? What happened to genuine, GOOD music? Ishare the sentiments of many of you in that I'm a firm believer that the cream rises to top. Those artists who have talent, and genuine ability willconnect with the audience, and will be successful. I think it's time record labels began to recognize this, and began to sign those rappers who are indeedtalented, and create beautiful music-- not just the flavour of the week who can make a quick buck. Music-- first and foremost-- is what the industry was builton, and is what it should continue to built on.

 

[illphillip]

I like what's poppin' in here so had to come back. I'll try to touch on a few things. First off No Escapin This said a lot of brilliant %+%*.I've been saying this for years now.

As the industry has deteriorated, and the struggle to make money has become more prevelant, the MUSIC dudes are being replaced by CORPORATE dudes. When labelswere living fat off the physical CD, they could invest in artistry. They just don't have the time to do that anymore.

How can you sustain a company for 10 years waiting for Wayne to break HUGE. Or TI. You have to do SOMETHING to keep the company alive, even amidst thatdevelopment.

Some of you are very idealistic. I have no problem with that. I am as well. Which is probably why I'm not as successful as the sharks. But I walk my ownroad.

Even then, you got kids trying to be slick, acting like they know it all. Cats questioning me putting MIMS on a record. That record was a success. Hate away.Funny because when the guys at Koch heard I was putting MIMS on a record, they were like "WHAT?!?!?! He's ice cold". Dog, for the most part, theartists you sign are ICE COLD. They happen to have a fan base that Koch taps into. Who was I supposed to get? Talib Kweli? El P? Currency? What would that dofor my record or my company? I'd make a cool record that 100 people liked.

Should I get TI? Jay Z? %*#! you think they cost to get on a record? I picked MIMS because he was on the heels of a huge single. That I'm sure everyone onhere hated (myself included). But it was still HUGE.

And look now. MIMS again has a hot record out. Getting played. Selling. And cats still want to hate. But the haters are always looking up from the bottom. Ifyou're doing your thing, building your lane, you don't have time to hate. It's the armchair quarterbacks of the music business that always havesomething to say. From the sidelines. I let 'em yap. Settin' it on every cat with an opinion gets exhausting. Which is why I'm on here less andless.

The problem with talking about things on NT is that NT can be very unrealistic. No girl is hot enough for anyone here. No artist is cool enough. Papoose washot once. Where is he now? Where Jae Millz?

How many of NT's favorites even put out albums? A lot of the things in here sound great. But I just don't see them as realistic right now. Maybe thatwill change.

youngjordan23, you say not even the girls can save you. I don't believe that. Like I said, Wayne is a megastar now, but it still took a record likeLollipop. I don't know a single dude who likes "Love Lockdown". But every chick I know does. "Whatever You Like"? Chick anthem. Theyare still an enormous part of the equation if you're talking about large scale success.

Granted, those artists put in a lot of work before those records, but their biggest records are still crossover. To Females.

If you want to make records for Niketalk, for the dudes, again, all good. I love those. But you need to accept that you're going to sell 30k in albums. Not1 Mil. And build your business model accordingly. Then hope it pops big.

Blackmagus, the difference between majors and indies is quite simply.....overhead. Even as we feel they are falling apart, they are still spending money.Chasing everything. Those mailings you do for artists that go nowhere are a LOSS. Where I am, we took the major label model and just scaled it back. We use ournetwork to figure out what's worth chasing first, before we invest.

The thing I love about being at an indie is that I've become well rounded. I came up in Radio Promotion. I still do that. I am a professional debater. Iargue for a living. If you couldn't tell by my posts on here. But being at a small label, I've had to go to MTV. To Fuse. I know the dudes at AOL,Yahoo. Myspace. Imeem etc.

Here's a great example of major vs. indie based on a talk I had yesterday. Pertaining to radio. There is a new Pop station in SF (part of that CBS flip Italked about). So before they officially flipped, they were starting to play Pop records. And someone at a major said "I'm not calling them. Theyaren't a pop station". Because they didn't "report" as a Pop station. They weren't a part of the Pop chart that these labels work.

But it's still a POP station. You get your record played, you sell. That's what we're in the business of. I couldn't believe my ears. It'ssuch a dated way of thinking. So yes, they are still stuck in the past. New age promo people shouldn't work charts. Shouldn't work "spins".They should work any medium with an AUDIENCE. So they do still suffer from a dated way of thinking.

Y'all act like the game is suddenly a mess. It been a mess. Talk all you want about selling out and this and that. That's been a problem since like 90.Were NWA real G's? Are the dudes in Mobb Deep as hard as they talk? It's been a front for years. Rick Ross. Suddenly everyone had to be a tough guy tosell. But so many of you seem to accept that no problem.

Fab been making chick records forever. Same with G Unit. Good records, but chick records nonetheless. Are they sellouts? Or do they just like girls? Youdon't like girls?

You guys have to realize that your idealism is still very much the minority. And has been for a long time now. I have the utmost respect for cats like El P andSlug. Doing their music their way.

Ultimately, you're never going to make everyone happy. There's always a critic. You talk about it. I live it. And that's real.

Fact is, even pro athletes play less and less for the love of the game, then they do for the business. That's why there are contract holdouts. Dudes sitfor a season. Boxers won't fight each other if they money don't breakdown right. Look at what Randy Couture did for you MMA fans. It's business.The idea that they just do it for the love is a bit far fetched. They do it to LIVE now.

 

[lnmymind]

I gotta give it to some of you $%%%@@...pause. Above all of the ridiculous %$++ that goes on this forum alot of you are pretty smart, knowledgeable dudes. Iwish my wannabe rapping cousin could read some of this %$++.

 

[thunderchunk69]

Originally Posted by illphillip

Fab been making chick records forever. Same with G Unit. Good records, but chick records nonetheless. Are they sellouts? Or do they just like girls? You don't like girls?

There's money to be made with targeting women, yes.

this isn't an argument against feminine/softer tracks but I think your mentality is wrong;

I don't go around looking for respect of women, don't see why rappers with skill should.
there are VERY few women in my world, just a lot of GIRLS

 

[ThaxbyChamblis]

Originally Posted by ILLIONAIRE

p.s. It still boggles my mind as to where Lil Wayne came from. i mean, wasn't he just another member of the Hot Boys at one point?

I always knew Wayne was goning to blow up. Maybe not to the level he's @ now, but I knew he would make a name for himself.

That boy is a star as was so since day 1.

 

[illphillip]

Originally Posted by ThunderChunk69

Originally Posted by illphillip

Fab been making chick records forever. Same with G Unit. Good records, but chick records nonetheless. Are they sellouts? Or do they just like girls? You don't like girls?

There's money to be made with targeting women, yes.

this isn't an argument against feminine/softer tracks but I think your mentality is wrong;

I don't go around looking for respect of women, don't see why rappers with skill should.
there are VERY few women in my world, just a lot of GIRLS

So this is about "respect" for you? So again, why all the love for fake rappers? Pseudo tough guys? Where is the respect in that? You respect themdudes? You think they respect you?

Maybe you don't go around looking for respect of women.......but you do want to APPEAL to them, no? When you hit the club, are you on some bum #+*#? No.Because you want to get laid. And you need to maybe wear some #+*# you wouldn't wear EVERY day to do that. Right? Throw on some cologne. Get fresh.

Sounds like a bit of a double standard.

I'll take my wrong mentality and run with it.

 

[lnmymind]

Originally Posted by illphillip

Originally Posted by ThunderChunk69

Originally Posted by illphillip

Fab been making chick records forever. Same with G Unit. Good records, but chick records nonetheless. Are they sellouts? Or do they just like girls? You don't like girls?

There's money to be made with targeting women, yes.

this isn't an argument against feminine/softer tracks but I think your mentality is wrong;

I don't go around looking for respect of women, don't see why rappers with skill should.
there are VERY few women in my world, just a lot of GIRLS

Sounds like a bit of a double standard.

That's exactly what it is and I've always wondered why dudes felt this way.

I mean...I don't know too many guys who DON'T like to appeal to women.

 

[youngjordan23]

youngjordan23, you say not even the girls can save you. I don't believe that. Like I said, Wayne is a megastar now, but it still took a record like Lollipop. I don't know a single dude who likes "Love Lockdown". But every chick I know does. "Whatever You Like"? Chick anthem. They are still an enormous part of the equation if you're talking about large scale success.

Granted, those artists put in a lot of work before those records, but their biggest records are still crossover. To Females.

If you want to make records for Niketalk, for the dudes, again, all good. I love those. But you need to accept that you're going to sell 30k in albumOs. Not 1 Mil. And build your business model accordingly. Then hope it pops big.
Oh no don't get me wrong i have no problem with an artist making a record that appeals to the ladies because in all honesty it has a much larger success rate than an rapper trying to appeal to the "Streets". This isn't the problem at all, the problem is that A&R's are making artist do terrible songs.

Take a guy like papoose(I always felt he was trash but he had a huge buzz at one point). They sign him and have him do a whole bunch of girl tracks and pop rap and that got him no where. It created no buzz because they weren't good catchy songs unlike Whatever u like, Love Lockdown, Lollipop. His commercial attempts were horrid, so not only did they fail to hit the demographic they wanted, but it loses the minor buzz and following he once had. And that's how u wind up with bitter rapper vol 101. Everybody can't make good "Pop" records, and labels act as if that's the only way to market an artist.

 

[zsong]

.


Be a DJ for a club or a large house party
See what types of records gets love (house parties are usually better harsh critics...they will boo.... while a club setting will, at their worst, just moveoff the dance floor)
Old vs New

Just to get a better perspective on music and audience reception, not necessarily to mold the music you would make


Bloggers usually get cited as the reason for the music industry's downfall
but it's my suggestion that those bloggers who are the type of music fans who thoroughly read liner notes and learn everything they can about anartist/producer/writer/song/album should be the ones getting jobs at record labels as A&R, marketing, advertising, strategy, executive-producing, etc


.

 

[King of Trash Style]

Its really the MAJOR labels fault but the fans didn't help either. I mean I don't even listen to the radio anymore becuz I'm tired of that damnStank Legg song

But at the same time the real artist are neverheard by the mainstream cuz the not"marketable" or the like NY Mixtape artists and give away all the good material 4 free(Papoose/Jae Millz). I'mproud of Wayne and Kanye 4 their sales but they're still lacking.

But in the end it won't get better until the labels/artists realize that the compact disc is dead and begin to take advantage of the net.

 

[youngjordan23]

Posted by NT'r� mynamesarnold

Joe seems to want part of the convo lol

 

[rocyaice]

First off, the state of hip hop is fine. IMO anyway. There's something out there for everyone. But there's a reason why label's go out to promoteartists like Soulja Boy. Because he attracts a demographic that actually goes out and buy's records. Why is a label gonna put up millions of dollars tomarket a artist that people aren't going to purchase? Hip Hop has more fans than any genre of music and its not even close. Yet, we don't have thehighest record sales. Its because of the type of fanbase we are. We're not loyal like other genres like Pop or Country Music. We'll be there when itcomes to you droppin' a ringtone or when you have a show coming to our town but when you have a album out its getting downloaded. Internet piracy has hurthip hop more than any other genre. Access to albums have become just a click away.

Labels don't care about what the music is they're promoting. They don't even care about how much money they get from that music. Just as long asthey make profit and don't go in the red. WE as fans can dictate what labels give us. What artists are signed and what's promoted. But our only voiceis the music we purchase. Pop fans are going to purchase the hip hop records that are hits on the charts. So that's going to get promoted by the labelbecause they can make profit or potentially anyway. But pop fans won't go out and purchase Blu's album or Little Brother's album because that'snot what's on the charts and it never will be. And we as "hip hop fans" won't purchase it either so what exactly does that do for guys likeLittle Brother and Blu?

 

[tom jooks]

Why don't you guys just shut the #++! up and get into the music industry and make moves instead of talking about. (I'm sure some of you are already inthe industry) You gain absolutely nothing by having these debates on the INTERNET. At the end of the day both parties will still hold strongly to their opinionand nothing will be changed.