Serious Discusssion (Paging ABH, Illionaire, NostrandAve, Ben Baller):The State of Hip Hop Music

[seymore cake]

Wow... Great thread and salute to everyone in here dropping thier 2 cents in a respectable manner. I typed out a long $%% response last night and my phonefroze I took that as a sign I was supposed to play the sidelines on this specific thread

Continue on.

 

[blazinjkid]

Like Cage said, this is WAY larger than just hip-hop.

From a business aspect:

The music industry needs to completely change it's focal point. The turnaround for things nowadays is ridiculously fast. People's attention spans areshorter than ever. You're hot one minute, you're nobody the next. That's just one of many reasons why physical copies of music are all but dead atthis point. If an artist has a hot song, you need to be able to get their product out ASAP. The days of dropping a single 2 months before the album drops isdead. Just think of what the internet has done. A song leaks on the internet and it's everywhere within a few days, before it even hits radio most of thetime. The music industry is playing catch up to technology and society. Digital format has all but overtaken the physical CD, but radio will always be around.I definitely expect those 2 aspects to merge within the next few years (i.e. have the ability to download a song from the radio after it's done playing).Websites like Pandora will definitely play a large role as well.

As far as Hip-Hop as an artform:

The problem with hip-hop? nothing at all
It's an artform that ranges and it changes and evolves
It's not always for the better, but be patient with it y'all
for our time will come and the wicked will fall

 

[rocyaice]

Originally Posted by Tom Jooks

Why don't you guys just shut the #++! up and get into the music industry and make moves instead of talking about. (I'm sure some of you are already in the industry) You gain absolutely nothing by having these debates on the INTERNET. At the end of the day both parties will still hold strongly to their opinion and nothing will be changed.

God forbid dudes actually come up with thoughtful topics and have healthy debates on a MESSAGE BOARD. What were we thinking.

Like Cage said, this is WAY larger than just hip-hop.

From a business aspect:

The music industry needs to completely change it's focal point. The turnaround for things nowadays is ridiculously fast. People's attention spans are shorter than ever. You're hot one minute, you're nobody the next. That's just one of many reasons why physical copies of music are all but dead at this point. If an artist has a hot song, you need to be able to get their product out ASAP. The days of dropping a single 2 months before the album drops is dead. Just think of what the internet has done. A song leaks on the internet and it's everywhere within a few days, before it even hits radio most of the time. The music industry is playing catch up to technology and society. Digital format has all but overtaken the physical CD, but radio will always be around. I definitely expect those 2 aspects to merge within the next few years (i.e. have the ability to download a song from the radio after it's done playing). Websites like Pandora will definitely play a large role as well.
I Think the further we get away from physical cd's though the worse the album sells will get.

 

[illphillip]

Originally Posted by Tom Jooks

Why don't you guys just shut the #++! up and get into the music industry and make moves instead of talking about. (I'm sure some of you are already in the industry) You gain absolutely nothing by having these debates on the INTERNET. At the end of the day both parties will still hold strongly to their opinion and nothing will be changed.

What a dumb #!!*$%!+!$$% like you don't get is that the discussion doesn't need to lead to change, or even an answer. Food for thought can be just asvaluable.

rocyaice, your last post was on point. Glad to see the consumer looking themselves in the mirror as part of the problem as opposed to just throwing the blameon everyone else.

You guys made every rapper act like a tough guy because that's what you wanted. You wanted The Terminator, but on record. The consumer has ALL the power.They decide what they do and don't want to buy.

 

[blackmagnus514]

I <3 the discussion in here. I'm actually @ Def Jam now...so I'll chime in when i get some time....

 

[lesfamilia]

Illphillip, do you think the influx of urban programming on cable and elsewhere is doing anything to improve the current status of hip-hop? I cringe whenmy little sister and others talk about all these 'Flavor of...' shows, but they're creating jobs, right?

 

[barack 0drama]

Co-Sign @ This being a good discussion.

This is the most thoughtful and mature I've seen any of us carry ourselves on here...

It's good to see.

I still have to read through the rest of the responses since last night.

 

[send one]

I dont even want to get started on a rant (cause I cant type that fast), but I'll say it is the consumers fault. We've all heard it 100 times beforeand I'll say it again, rap fans are the most fickle and have a short attention span. Not to mention were the most unloyal fans of probably any genre.Labels mostly react to what the public wants (or what the think they want) and at the end of the day it's a business like any other, they want to make asmuch profit with the least amount of overhead.

And at the same time blame some of the rappers for not being so proactive in their own careers. I've heard rappers complain about labels not doing enoughfor them but that same rapper wont book himself for an interview or whatever.

 

[air kalo]

Originally Posted by lnMyMind

Originally Posted by illphillip

Originally Posted by ThunderChunk69

Originally Posted by illphillip

Fab been making chick records forever. Same with G Unit. Good records, but chick records nonetheless. Are they sellouts? Or do they just like girls? You don't like girls?

There's money to be made with targeting women, yes.

this isn't an argument against feminine/softer tracks but I think your mentality is wrong;

I don't go around looking for respect of women, don't see why rappers with skill should.
there are VERY few women in my world, just a lot of GIRLS

Sounds like a bit of a double standard.

That's exactly what it is and I've always wondered why dudes felt this way.

I mean...I don't know too many guys who DON'T like to appeal to women.

Exactly. And it's easy to tell the difference between an artist targeting specifically women for record sales vs. a more well-rounded artist that made a"chick record"

For example: Plies (All of the lead singles to his albums have been chick records) vs. The Clipse (who released three singles before "Ma I Don't LoveHer" in '02-'03 and ZERO chick records for HHNF)

 

[rocyaice]

Originally Posted by LESfamilia


Illphillip, do you think the influx of urban programming on cable and elsewhere is doing anything to improve the current status of hip-hop? I cringe when my little sister and others talk about all these 'Flavor of...' shows, but they're creating jobs, right?

What does the Flavor of...shows have to do with the current status of hip hop? Not being a a-hole i'm being serious. I don't see theconnection other than one of them contained a hypeman from a hip hop group. I think reality programming in general is hurting television but hip hop? Not sureI see what you're getting at.

rocyaice, your last post was on point. Glad to see the consumer looking themselves in the mirror as part of the problem as opposed to just throwing the blame on everyone else.

You guys made every rapper act like a tough guy because that's what you wanted. You wanted The Terminator, but on record. The consumer has ALL the power. They decide what they do and don't want to buy.
Co-sign. This isn't just hip hop. I'm in television and its the same thing here. People complain about reality shows but the fact is,people are tuning in. I compare reality shows to these ringtone artists. Their cheap to produce and they're profitable. Now there's nothing you can doabout people tuning in to reality shows or supporting ringtone rappers. I think that should be made clear. And why do something about it? If there's aaudience for it I say produce it. It may not be my cup of tea but its someone else's. But what consumers can do who are fed up with reality programming orringtone rappers is go out and actually promote what you do like. If backpack rap is your thing go out and purchase it. That's how you're heard. Butsitting on the computer all day and downloading your favorite artists album then complaining hip hop is dead is not gonna cut it.

I have no problem with the current state of hip hop. I actually love it. But if you do feel there's a problem as far as what's being marketed itwon't change until you realize your the problem not the labels.

 

[lesfamilia]

Originally Posted by rocyaice

Originally Posted by LESfamilia


Illphillip, do you think the influx of urban programming on cable and elsewhere is doing anything to improve the current status of hip-hop? I cringe when my little sister and others talk about all these 'Flavor of...' shows, but they're creating jobs, right?

What does the Flavor of...shows have to do with the current status of hip hop? Not being a a-hole i'm being serious. I don't see the connection other than one of them contained a hypeman from a hip hop group. I think reality programming in general is hurting television but hip hop? Not sure I see what you're getting at.

rocyaice, your last post was on point. Glad to see the consumer looking themselves in the mirror as part of the problem as opposed to just throwing the blame on everyone else.

You guys made every rapper act like a tough guy because that's what you wanted. You wanted The Terminator, but on record. The consumer has ALL the power. They decide what they do and don't want to buy.

Co-sign. This isn't just hip hop. I'm in television and its the same thing here. People complain about reality shows but the fact is, people are tuning in. I compare reality shows to these ringtone artists. Their cheap to produce and they're profitable. Now there's nothing you can do about people tuning in to reality shows or supporting ringtone rappers. I think that should be made clear. And why do something about it? If there's a audience for it I say produce it. It may not be my cup of tea but its someone else's. But what consumers can do who are fed up with reality programming or ringtone rappers is go out and actually promote what you do like. If backpack rap is your thing go out and purchase it. That's how you're heard. But sitting on the computer all day and downloading your favorite artists album then complaining hip hop is dead is not gonna cut it.

I have no problem with the current state of hip hop. I actually love it. But if you do feel there's a problem as far as what's being marketed it won't change until you realize your the problem not the labels.

I believe they have a great deal to do with the current state of hip-hop, if nothing else because the casual viewer or listener takes one look atthem and thinks they symbolize the culture as a whole.

 

[metrokid26]

I think rappers/managers should start making "Singles" a representation of their character

Singles weren't always about getting money/girls and all that. Singles used to be the representation of the artist

for example, ODB had that single "brooklyn zoo" for his album, that wasn't him talking about getting money, in fact he was talking pure nonsence

Its one thing if an artist wants to present themselves as that kinda artist, but I want some people to make their singles about something other than that

 

[lnmymind]

Originally Posted by Air Kalo

Originally Posted by lnMyMind

Originally Posted by illphillip

Originally Posted by ThunderChunk69

Originally Posted by illphillip

Fab been making chick records forever. Same with G Unit. Good records, but chick records nonetheless. Are they sellouts? Or do they just like girls? You don't like girls?

There's money to be made with targeting women, yes.

this isn't an argument against feminine/softer tracks but I think your mentality is wrong;

I don't go around looking for respect of women, don't see why rappers with skill should.
there are VERY few women in my world, just a lot of GIRLS

Sounds like a bit of a double standard.

That's exactly what it is and I've always wondered why dudes felt this way.

I mean...I don't know too many guys who DON'T like to appeal to women.

and ZERO chick records for HHNF

"Dirty Money" not a typical R&B influenced chick record but they were talking to females on the record

 

[thunderchunk69]

Im on a sidekick, but as far as respect, im talking about lyrical prowess.

Some rappers need to be more concerned with impressing people lyrically than making a hook for females.
I've met plenty of girls that say Jay and Jada are their fav rappers yet can't explain any of their lines.

 

[blackmagnus514]

Originally Posted by Tom Jooks

Why don't you guys just shut the #++! up and get into the music industry and make moves instead of talking about. (I'm sure some of you are already in the industry) You gain absolutely nothing by having these debates on the INTERNET. At the end of the day both parties will still hold strongly to their opinion and nothing will be changed.

please take the negativity out of here. If you have nothing constructive to say, dont say anything @ all.

 

[jefffort5]

http://realtalkny.uproxx....ke-millions-from-touring/

 

[75 partly cloudy]

I just really think a new way of SELLING music has to be established.

itunes/downloading is a short term solution.

I think people should build on what Prince did and have tours/shows with the price of a CD built into the cost. When the person leaves the arena they get aalbum. And it still counts for soundscan/billboard etc.

When I signed up for BMI i learned that manufacturers of blank cd's and dvd's have to pay a fee to the record industry which is suppose to be sharedequally to all artist who are represented by BMI or ASCAP or through a personal lawyer. Which basically means that the companies know there product is beingsold to help aid the illegal downloading of music and so does the recording industry. And if you don't read whats in your contract, like most artist, andsign for it you won't get your cut of the money.

It's deeper than rap. -Ross

 

[haiti5]

It's deeper than rap. -Ross
and it always has been in my opinion. the rick rubins and russell simmons' of the world have done this. and to me its evolution. ppl arescared of the evolution of hip hop..and more importantly music. the technological "manifest destiny" is going on and on.. and ppl just have to learnto move with it and stake their land. the gold rush hasnt happened yet.but eventually it will. I wouldnt be surprised if it gets to the point where artists aresigning digital deals and the big companies will market you through the net and use payola for blogs ala radio. But i think artists who recognize this willhave a leg up on others. As someone else stated local artists are gonna get some much more attention and love, but the days of being a worldwide superstar aregoing to slowly fade. The state of hip hop is fine and its great. Everyone has acess to an artist that speaks for them rather it be the Cool Kids or The Knuxor Nipsey Hussle or GLC..like this is a golden era for hip hop music and its fans. Unfortunately, acess to these artists means less money in the artistpockets..but hey thats where us artists have to get creative and learn to market ourselves a brand.

with the whole myspace and blog thing poppin ..EVERYBODY is a rapper. I think HipHop is the only genre where an enitre block/neighborhood has more people who "rap"then not.
i see what u sayin and i disagree..everybody BEEN a rapper..before the myspace music page jumped off..everybody had a soundclick ,tell me imwrong folk!

..even before that growing up in chicago everybody rapped. i mean all u need is your voice , you dont need an instrument or a vocoder (left jabat kanye), its inexpensive and you can do it while u in school, at lunch, in class, on break at work, on the block, in the trap woo woo woo..and thats thebeautiful thing about rap and hip hop. everyone has a voice weather u suck or not..and its soo subjective cuz there is no concrete rules ..u can rhyme..u donthave to..but i dun wanna go off into tangentville i jus wanted to make the point that there are voices for everyones struggles , ups , downs , whatever andwith the internet its soo much easier to find that

 

[lesfamilia]

Y'all are dropping gems in here...

Illphillip, I've always respected your opinion on the music business, even back in my wilder phase. Is it too idealist for me to think I can succeed bydoing everything the 'right' way, and not cheating people and stealing people's work like I've heard so many times before? I've done somuch research and seen people do other people dirty firsthand... Can I do this the 'right' way?

 

[blackmagnus514]

but the days of being a worldwide superstar are going to slowly fade.
negative. The internet has brought the world together. If anything, cats can develop more of a cult following overseas. Hell some artists from theUS exclusively release overseas because of the big markets which exist over there. Picture cats like The Wu Tang Clan and then factor in the marketingcapabilities of the internet and exposure.

Is it too idealist for me to think I can succeed by doing everything the 'right' way, and not cheating people and stealing people's work like I've heard so many times before?
Be true to the game and it will be true to you. I've seen people blackballed, their name %@$ on behind their back....not trying to make itsound like I'm a OG in the game...but this is a game for smart, conniving and cerebral cats who can/will make %@$ happen. The best in the game either justhad "it" (Jay-z, Dame, Russell, K. Liles) or learned from someone who had it (Shakir Stewart RIP, Diddy)...it's a dirty game...but human naturein general will respect cats who are upright but got the sense to know a hustle and guard against it.

Honestly, you're only as good as a hustler as you let yourself become. Look @ the L.O.X. Sure it was dumb foul for Puff to do them like that, but theydidnt thoroughly look through their paperwork for 'Kiss to have to pay Puff a 300K advance before he made his solo albums and for Puff to be DINING offtheir publishing.

but as far as respect, im talking about lyrical prowess.

Some rappers need to be more concerned with impressing people lyrically than making a hook for females.
I've met plenty of girls that say Jay and Jada are their fav rappers yet can't explain any of their lines.
Exactly. Its like the business aspect of the game forces artists to make joints that aint their style. How many talented lyricists went left cuzof label pressureand then faded. Business wise, it makes sense to appeal to females as they have the most buying power in most markets...but when a cat likePlies tops @ 300K. It's like the respect now has gone to the cat who's sold the most regardless of talent. It's not even to the NICEST cat no more.Like rmemeber when you and your friends used to all freestyle and there was always one cat who shut it down....

I just really think a new way of SELLING music has to be established.

itunes/downloading is a short term solution.

I think people should build on what Prince did and have tours/shows with the price of a CD built into the cost. When the person leaves the arena they get a album. And it still counts for soundscan/billboard etc.

that would work for established artists. If i never heard a cat before, why would i wanna buy his CD.

But what consumers can do who are fed up with reality programming or ringtone rappers is go out and actually promote what you do like. If backpack rap is your thing go out and purchase it. That's how you're heard. But sitting on the computer all day and downloading your favorite artists album then complaining hip hop is dead is not gonna cut it.
true...

but I'll say it is the consumers fault. We've all heard it 100 times before and I'll say it again, rap fans are the most fickle and have a short attention span. Not to mention were the most unloyal fans of probably any genre.
But dont we as fans have the right to choose and be discriminate. I wholeheartedly agree that hip hop consumers are some of the most fickle...butthat's characteristic of human nature. We're constantly looking for "the next best thing". If labels knew how to build brand loyalty.....

 

[ilovehiphop43]

the thing is that there IS no artist development anymore...the people whp run the label dont care bout anything but hits...i had to ask myself is that what iwanted when i signed...i got alot of subject matter on my album..BUT ... could i make it like Mixtape Abouit Nothin...hell na....thats why i got a couplelighter records like chillin and pretty girls and !%% like that....i love them records but if u not em or jay or nas..then ur not going to really be able toconvey a "different" messgae ur first album...so we play the game...not sellin out tho..because everybody loves to party and dance or what have u..but makin singles "about stuff" aint where its at ...believe me ..i fought that fight with them..lol

 

[dub 253]

Damn, this is the most respectful I've seen the MusicForum be to each other probably ever...

It's a little late in the game to get too in depth with my opinion so I'mma just watch and take it all in. (pause)

This next decade gonna be crazy tho. It really is our time and I know all of us would be damned if we let some old industry *@%%# keepus from progressing... If we want it bad enough we can have a piece of the billions just waiting be taken.

I mean, not everyone is built to be signed to a Major, but that sure as hell doesn't mean you can't make a company and become a contender yourself.

And personally, that seems much more satisfying imo. Being your own boss and having control over yourself and your art while at the same timemaking money; instead of being under the thumb of a faceless person in an office making all the profit while you do all the work.

Oh ya...

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler [+]

Spoiler

 

[DYNAMICS]

I still have to go through this properly before doing my response.

 

[illphillip]

Originally Posted by LESfamilia


Y'all are dropping gems in here...

Illphillip, I've always respected your opinion on the music business, even back in my wilder phase. Is it too idealist for me to think I can succeed by doing everything the 'right' way, and not cheating people and stealing people's work like I've heard so many times before? I've done so much research and seen people do other people dirty firsthand... Can I do this the 'right' way?

Appreciate the kind words. Dog, I've been in the business for 10 years, and I'm not sure I even have an answer to your question. And the funny thingis, I'm just now trying to figure this out. And talking to my boys about how exactly we're supposed to move to succeed, especially if I leave a companyto do my own thing. If you have your own company, you don't get a check every 2 weeks. What you make is what you HUSTLE.

I consider myself a man of honor. I'm no shady %++% and I'm honest to a fault. And I've done OK in the music business. I've obviously survivedit so far. Some people appreciate how I roll.

But when I look around at the dudes that are REALLY doing it, they operate differently. They talk a lot of +$@#. Make a lot of noise. Talk about themselves ALLthe time. What they do. What they don't. Most times very exagerated. And don't care about getting over.

So as I'm getting older, thinking wife and kids and supporting all that, I'm like "what am I supposed to do?". I've done OK so far buthow do I take it to the next level?

Example. In promo, you have a lot of artists come to you for help at radio. And those artists come with money. One example recently was Jerry Rice looking forpromo peeps to work his daughters record. Obviously, there is PAPER there. So I got a call about that.

Now I don't really do a LOT of indie work. Trying to avoid the conflict of interest, and I could probably lose my job over that.

Now, for the record, I never even heard Jerry's daughters record. I'm just using him as an example of a dude with money. So if he came in to see me,I'd tell him what I REALLY thought of the record and the chances of it getting played at radio.

Most other promo dudes they go see would tell them how much of a SMASH the record was, how they know this guy and that guy at this and that station. How theycan get them this and that.

And IF the record is hot, that might happen. But if it's really not, they say it anyway, get the CHECK, and NOTHING happens. "Oh well, I tried,it's not reacting etc." and keep it moving.

Fact is, I could make more money being full of +$@# than I could being honest. Another startling reality of the music biz that I am dealing with.

I try to point out that it happens all the time. I'm sure Dame has done his dirt. I try to point out to y'all sometimes that Jay Z's track recordisn't exactly flawless.

So basically, you can do it the right way, and make a decent living, and maybe have some +$@# that blows large and cash out. But the real money dudes in thebiz, for the most part, are ruthless. I said earlier that the music dudes are being replaced by corporate dudes. And those dudes by nature are more RUTHLESS.

On an unrelated note, one of the more interesting phenomenon I've seen from younger cats is their interest in Soundscan. I didn't even see Soundscanuntil like my 2nd year IN the business. I mean WORKING in it, not even interning which I did before that. I was just a fan. A MUSIC guy up to that point. Idon't get the interest in those numbers from young dudes. Why would it matter to a "fan"?

It's like y'all are getting too caught up in the BUSINESS at too young an age. That +$@# shouldn't even matter. So again, do young dudes reallycare about the MUSIC? Or are they now more infatuated with the BUSINESS? And think about what effect that would have on the love and quality of the MUSIC.

 

[zsong]

Originally Posted by illphillip

On an unrelated note, one of the more interesting phenomenon I've seen from younger cats is their interest in Soundscan. I didn't even see Soundscan until like my 2nd year IN the business. I mean WORKING in it, not even interning which I did before that. I was just a fan. A MUSIC guy up to that point. I don't get the interest in those numbers from young dudes. Why would it matter to a "fan"?

It's like y'all are getting too caught up in the BUSINESS at too young an age. That +$@# shouldn't even matter. So again, do young dudes really care about the MUSIC? Or are they now more infatuated with the BUSINESS? And think about what effect that would have on the love and quality of the MUSIC.

In their defense,
I think these younger folk who you're referring to [alot of message board folks] have been conditioned to view success this way.
As general music fans, it's one thing.
The problem is when such-minded folk get music industry jobs, and basically continue the traditional trend of making moves solely based on the $$ andcompletely disregarding artistic integrity and expression.

I heard Brian McKnight say he wishes that music would just be heard through radio streams, so that people won't judge an artist based on looks/appearance
and while his intentions are good
I disagree...I think there's a great POSITIVE effect of an artist having a certain look and image, as long as it truly represents him/her, nothing fake andpre-packaged
but many times a person's unique background story and physical appearance helps music audiences connect on a personal level to the music

_