teaching discipline WITHOUT causing harm vol. Put that switch down, ma'am

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Something I said in another thread (the kid getting publicly embarrassed & hit for stealing) prompted me to make THIS thread.

I said something to the effect that CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IS DUE TO LAZY PARENTING (since it's obviously very easy for a grown man/woman to inflict harm on a small child) OR LIMITED KNOWLEDGE ON WHAT THE HELL ELSE CAN BE DONE.

You do NOT have to hit/smack/PHYSICALLY HARM a kid to teach him/her to act right. You don't. YOU JUST DON'T.

Now... a common argument against my way of thinking is "Oh, you must have been a good kid, never had your !$@ kicked. You don't know 'bad'."
FALSE. I was severely abused. I'm not going to go into details, for 2 reasons:
#1- the details are irrelevant. Just know that I went through some very traumatic things. Read 'The Lost Boy' and 'A Child Called It' and know that I can relate to a majority of what Dave chronicles in those 2 books.
#2- you wouldn't believe half of what I'd tell you.

So yes, I definitely know what an !$@ whooping is, and I definitely know bad.

But the pattern of violence that lead to me wanting to fight every-damn-body hit me hardest in my late 20s, when I started realizing that eventually, me and my wife (now ex-wife) are going to have a kid someday, and I'm going to teach him the same violence I was taught.

So it was in my late 20s that I really started putting MYSELF through anger management, and making my OWN observations about non-physical parenting.

FAST FORWARD TO NOW.

Now I have a son, 4 years old in September, and I get complimented ALL THE TIME on how well-behaved he is, how helpful he is to other kids at day care, how obedient he is... blah, blah, blah... and that obviously makes dear ol' dad mighty proud. What makes me even MORE proud is this: HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE PUNISHED THROUGH SPANKING, HITTING, GRABBING, and he HARDLY even knows what it's like to have me or his mom raise our voice to him.

You think timeouts don't work? That's your opinion, and it's an incorrect one.

You think it doesn't work when you're in the store and you start putting 'his' stuff back on shelves? You're wrong.

In the 4 years of his life, were there times when it would have been easier for me to just grab him up and smack his butt a few times? Hell yeah! Were there times when he was being mouthy and it would have been easier to just smack his lips and tell him 'Don't talk to me like that!"? Of course... but before he was born, I observed from OTHER parents that those painful tactics are both unnecessary and lazy.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A KID, OR IF YOU HAVE A YOUNG KID... AND YOU THINK THAT GETTING PHYSICAL W/ A KID IS JUST PART OF RAISING HIM/HER... if you read nothing else, read this:
- from the time your kid is born, MAINTAIN your authority. YOU make the decisions, YOU call the shots, YOU decide where y'all are going, what you're buying, what y'all are eating, etc. My son knows DAMN well that he is NOT going to act a fool today and then we go to the pool. HEEEELLLLLL nah. And once we're at the pool, if he's not listening, if he's acting a fool, we will march our happy tails right on back home. He throws a fit? He WILL sit on timeout till Christ returns, and that doesn't mean with all his toys and with a movie on.

- make the punishment fit the crime. He don't want to eat his dinner? Simple; no dessert. Duh. And I tell him before dinner "You eat your chicken and green beans, and we'll have ice cream after." Now he's all excited for ice cream... and fully aware that it won't happen without those green beans disappearing. He won't clean up his toys when it's time to clean up? I'll start cleaning them up... starting by throwing a few of them in the trash (this is what I use the free toys he gets in stuff like happy meals and cereal boxes; I'm not throwing my money in the trash
).

- think in advance. I always let him go to bed with 1 or 2 of his toys. Why? Because after cleanup & brushing teeth, if he throws a fit about bedtime, now he can go to bed without a toy.

- COMMIT to doing things this way. I know that the second I decide to start getting physical w/ my son, all that's left for him to learn is how to get past the pain, and once he learns that, then I've got nothing. If he's 16, 17 years old and lived a life of timeouts, taking toys away, no ice cream, not going on class field trips, no phone, no PS7 (
), no daddy taking him to concerts, then I'll still have tools in my belt to make sure he keeps some 'ackright'. But if he's 16, 17 years old, starting to get stronger than me, what the hell am I gonna have in my belt if all I've done his whole life is spank him and smack his mouth? I'll be damn near 50 by that time, and if he's wilin' out, acting a fool, what am I gonna do? I could spank him when he was 5, 6, 7 years old. But now what? He gets suspended from school, and I'm gonna grab a belt?
Nah, if he were suspended from school... ever... he's staying home with me and we're doing chores and schoolwork, for that whole suspension. And if he EVER got expelled, we would have the cleanest house on the block, believe that.


- explain yourself after consequences sometime. This is often confused with 'answering' to your kid. "Psh, I'm not answering to my freaking 6 year old." You're not answering to them; you're EXPLAINING to them why you did what you did, so that they know that the reason you did is definitely more than just "Cuz I can. Deal with it."

I know this was way too much for most of you ADD having fools to digest, but... yeah... just wanted to drop this on the table, see where it goes.
 
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So in essence, from day one you must be the pack leader. 


You don't see Cesar Millan beating the crap out of the dogs he trains, he uses psychological tricks to get them to do what he wants. I'm not trying to oversimplify things by comparing children to canines but you catch my drift.
 

i.e.

 
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Absolutely!

And the same goes where I work. I work in a juvenile treatment center, where kids are court ordered to be there until we decide they're ready to go back home. For some kids, they get charged with something, sent to us, and get their acts right fairly quickly, meaning they go him in 5-6 months. Others? I had one kid that just left 2 months ago... after walking through our doors in September 2009.


And the kids at work know that I have high expectations for them, and they obviously also know that I'm not going to hit them, cuss them out, raise my voice... none of that. No need. They want to refuse chores, throw hands, slam doors? Cool; no outdoor rec time, no movies, and no off-campus activities for x amount of time. Nothing for me to get all worked up over, yelling and cussing and all that.
 
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GREAT post, Ska....

I was spanked as a kid, but I don't think I'll do it to my own children. You can definitely get your point across without a spanking. It starts early, IMO. Your kids HAVE To know their boundaries.

- from the time your kid is born, MAINTAIN your authority.


When out and about, I see this all the time where the kid is in control...parents GIVING IN and letting their children get away w. murder just to stop a tantrum.
 
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your opinion is noted. HEAVILY influenced on your past, but still noted.
everybody, not just kids, is wired differently.
I have 2 kids. My oldest is 8, youngest is 3.
they are night and day.
at age 3, my oldest was a damn good kid. he listened.
my youngest, at 3, is a bastard.
different personalities respond to different methods. I'm a little tougher on the younger one than I was on the older, because that's what he responds to.
now do I believe in the "belt" or "getting a switch"? hell. no. that's abuse.
but I have no problem with the occasional hand slap.

-J-
 
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ska - im not a parent myself, but god willing will be in the near future.

now i know this sounds crazy, but what if your child is kinduva yogi bear type of kid (smarter than your average bear)? my wife tells me stories about the relationship between her boss and her youngest son. i havent met the kid myself, but from the stories i've heard, it sounds like his awareness/intelligence is on another level. how do you combat a super-kid like that with simple mind games?

for example:

wont clean up his toys? mom and dad says if you dont clean it up, then i will clean them up for you by throwing them in the trash!
kid says, ok mommy i dont like my toys anyways, ill help. calls his parents bluff and throws their money/his toys in the trash himself.

the next morning moms is getting ready to leave the house to go to work but cant find her keys anywhere. she is frantically looking to no avail. lil man (he just turned 5) asks "hey mommy what are you doing?" she says, have you seen mommys keys? he says "yup" she asks, well where did you see them? i need to go to work. he says "i hid them". uhhhhh what? GIVE ME THE KEYS. he replies "ill give you your keys back if you promise to buy me new toys to replace the ones you threw away last night". Moms gotta go to work, she cant sit there and play chicken with her kid all morning, nor can she promise him something then go back on her word (doesnt want to reinforce lying). So what is she to do? Timeout? OK, he didnt want to go to school anyways.
 
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Great post, very well worded and put for the setting, too. read the entire thing. Timeout--isolationism in general--is the most tried and true method of discipline/punishment of all time.
 
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DoubleJs07:[hr][/hr]
- from the time your kid is born, MAINTAIN your authority.
When out and about, I see this all the time where the kid is in control...parents GIVING IN and letting their children get away w. murder just to stop a tantrum.
I'M SAYING!!! And the reason is because the kid is USED to getting their way eventually, USED to running the show.

- parent: "I said put that down and get back here!"
- kid: "NO!"
- parent: "Put it down and get back here... or I'll put every one of these toys back."
- kid: *stomping feet, crying loud as hell* "NOOOO!!!!" *throws down whatever they had to begin with*
- parent marches over, grabs the child, says a few words about the toys being gone
- kid still crying and throwing a fit

Fast forward to the checkout lane... and there are all the toys right there with the groceries, along with the ice cream the kid picked... and me standing back, with the feel of my son's hand grabbing hold of my shirt cause he knows DAMN well I don't roll like that. But for that parent? The kid is the head of that household, and that's sad.


I left a park like 15 minutes after we had just paid admission because my son was throwing a fit about me telling him he needs to stay with me. I don't care about the wasted money, because the lesson he learned was worth the cost to me. I don't want him growing up thinking "Oh, we just paid admission, so daddy's not about to walk outta here." Like hell we won't.

But these kids you're talking about, it's like parents are afraid to take things away... candy, movies, activities, whatever. They want to continue to give them this, that, and the third, thinking that hitting them is the only punishment at their disposal.

Nah, man.
 
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i don't have a kid but from just general observations here's my two cents--

-it's all a power struggle. a lot of the time the parents keep giving in, and the kids keep taking more, and one day the parent looks up and wonders what the #$%^& happened. they no longer have the power to discipline, so they "up the ante" and that's where abuse comes into play. it's a method to regain the power which has awful effects down the line. you teach the child that violence is the way to secure power and control.
 
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Mojodmonky1:[hr][/hr]now i know this sounds crazy, but what if your child is kinduva yogi bear type of kid (smarter than your average bear)? my wife tells me stories about the relationship between her boss and her youngest son. i havent met the kid myself, but from the stories i've heard, it sounds like his awareness/intelligence is on another level. how do you combat a super-kid like that with simple mind games?

for example:

wont clean up his toys? mom and dad says if you dont clean it up, then i will clean them up for you by throwing them in the trash!
kid says, ok mommy i dont like my toys anyways, ill help. calls his parents bluff and throws their money/his toys in the trash himself.

the next morning moms is getting ready to leave the house to go to work but cant find her keys anywhere. she is frantically looking to no avail. lil man (he just turned 5) asks "hey mommy what are you doing?" she says, have you seen mommys keys? he says "yup" she asks, well where did you see them? i need to go to work. he says "i hid them". uhhhhh what? GIVE ME THE KEYS. he replies "ill give you your keys back if you promise to buy me new toys to replace the ones you threw away last night". Moms gotta go to work, she cant sit there and play chicken with her kid all morning, nor can she promise him something then go back on her word (doesnt want to reinforce lying). So what is she to do? Timeout? OK, he didnt want to go to school anyways.
For the way I personally do things, these two are too easy.

1st scenario: the kid DEFINITELY has toys he cares about. Start throwing THEM joints away. So you throw away a yo-yo. Whoop-dee-freaking-dooo.
Unplug that XBOX and watch what happens. "Wait, you're throwing THAT away?
" "Nah, probably sell it. No point in throwing it away. But you ain't getting it, I know that." Let that bad boy sit in your closet for a couple weeks then bring it back out. If you give it back and get some kind of smartass response like "
I knew you had it and you'd give it back anyways," then really follow through with selling it to someone... and make sure he knows that it really is GONE. Follow through with the tv... and the stereo... and shoes; he'll make the connection that his smartass mouth is costing him.

2nd scenario: Like I said, think in advance. Something THAT important, I'm ready. I honestly and truly am not lying when I tell you that I have a spare set of house/car keys hidden, JUST for this occasion. I swear.
Hasn't happened, but if it did...
- me: "Have you seen my keys?"
- him: "Yep. I hid them."
- me: "Funny. Go get them. I've got to take you to school and get to work."
- him: "Can we get the new Halo on the way home? Say yes and I'll give you the keys."
- me: "No, I've got a better idea."
*walks to my hiding spot*
"How about I take you to school and I go to work, and now you'll have allllll day at school to think about what's going to happen when I pick you up from school. I'll give you a hint: it WON'T be 'Get the new Halo'."
- him: "Fuuuuuuuuuuuuu" (and it BETTER be in his mind)

Now for the situation you said, if I didn't have a spare set hidden, still too easy.
- me: "Have you seen my keys?"
- him: "Yep. I hid them."
- me: "Funny. Go get them. I've got to take you to school and get to work."
- him: "Can we get the new Halo on the way home? Say yes and I'll give you the keys."
- me: "No, I've got a better idea."
*picks up the phone to call work and let them know I'll be late... then starts calling whoever I can to get a ride* (c'mon, SOMEONE will be available... and if not, get a taxi, or take the bus)
"Now then... how about I take you to school and I go to work, and now you'll have allllll day at school to think about what's going to happen when I pick you up from school. I'll give you a hint: it WON'T be 'Get the new Halo'."
- him: "Fuuuuuuuuuuuuu" (and it BETTER be in his mind)
 
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my parents beat my *%% when i got out of line, and i turned out fine. I will do the same with my kids when i have them.

sometimes, kids need to get popped in the mouth to get the point.

the reason why kids act wild like that is because the parents are soft and lets them get away with everything.
 
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SonOfTony:[hr][/hr]my parents beat my *%% when i got out of line, and i turned out fine. I will do the same with my kids when i have them.

sometimes, kids need to get popped in the mouth to get the point.

the reason why kids act wild like that is because the parents are soft and lets them get away with everything.
Nope. Just... simply not true. They 'need' to be kept in line, but popping them in the mouth isn't the only way to go about it. It's the easiest way, sure, but that's lazy parenting, like I said.
 

wr

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you're supposed to pop ur kids if they get out of line. But taking out your frustrations and constantly beating on someone who depends on you for moral, financial, and life support can be life shattering. Especially to a young and much smaller child. The unfairness of the world sets in early.
 
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do work son:[hr][/hr]i don't have a kid but from just general observations here's my two cents--

-it's all a power struggle. a lot of the time the parents keep giving in, and the kids keep taking more, and one day the parent looks up and wonders what the #$%^& happened. they no longer have the power to discipline, so they "up the ante" and that's where abuse comes into play. it's a method to regain the power which has awful effects down the line. you teach the child that violence is the way to secure power and control.
Dammit, something I forgot to say in the beginning is that the explanation of WHY is crucial to the kid learning that it's really not a power struggle. Explaining to my son now at a young age why I exact certain consequences will lower the odds that he'll grow up to be a smartass trying to power struggle with me. The odds are raised that when he gets old enough to start connecting dots, he'll see that I was just doing what I was doing to keep him in line, not 'win', and the reason he'll most likely see that is because he'll be able to look back on literally HUNDREDS of explanations I gave him along with the things I did, as opposed to just being able to look back on the things I did with no explanation. THAT most definitely CAN lead to power struggles.
 
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my nephew's older brother(refuse to claim him as my nephew too) is the definition of a wild child, but his mother is just like you. she doesn't beat him, never has. she puts him on timeouts, sometimes for HOURS. she takes away toys, snacks, etc. when he misbehaves. she never gives in to his tantrums, neither does my brother. he's 4 and he's the complete opposite of your child. the only time he relaxes is when my brother raises his voice or threatens a 'spanking'. what's his problem and what do you suppose they do instead?
 
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ehhh, depends

your experiences early in life influenced your belief.

i have a 3 yr old daughter. I've occasionally slapped her hand (<3 times). The way I see it, it's like anything else there are different ways to get to the same result. For you personally, if that works, great.

Physical punishment should never harm a child, btw.
 
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Originally Posted by SonOfTony

my parents beat my *%% when i got out of line, and i turned out fine. I will do the same with my kids when i have them.

sometimes, kids need to get popped in the mouth to get the point.

the reason why kids act wild like that is because the parents are soft and lets them get away with everything.
to be honest... i kinda felt (and still feel) the same way.

me and my pops used to have some wars.  pops cracked enough sticks across my calves, butt, hands, and back to build a damn shed.  Me and my dad have a great relationship now, but I think part of it was due to a big turning point from a few years back.  My dad asked me to come by the house one day and he sat down and apologized to me man to man for being a bad father.  He acknowleged that he was wrong for resorting to physical violence (some of that stuff went beyond punishment, it was bordering on straight up assault).  Now that my wife and I are thinking bout starting our own family soon, my dad continues to harp on both me AND my wife to NEVER raise a hand to our future children.  He gets annoyed and sad when I jokingly tell him "why not?  you beat me, and i turned out fine, so ima beat my kid too".  I know it really took a lot for my pop to apologize to me like that (he's an old school strict Asian father from the old country, and old Asian men never humble themselves to their children), and so its definitely something I need to take into consideration when I'm a parent.

@ska - GREAT tips (especially on the part bout setting yourself up with a spare set of keys)  
 

MVP

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I don't think it's "lazy parenting" as you put it, just a different method to get the same result. Some kids are really just bad as hell and whooping them is the only way they'll get a point. I've seen too many kids just run over their parents and are like "I don't spank my child" he/she goes into timeout and it just boggles my mind because that's not how I was raised or pretty much anyone around me.

Cultural/ethnic differences I believe are a factor in this as well.
 
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Kids need different forms of punishment, I havent had to use physical punishment with my 2 yr old daughter thank god.
 
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jawnyquest:[hr][/hr]my nephew's older brother(refuse to claim him as my nephew too) is the definition of a wild child, but his mother is just like you. she doesn't beat him, never has. she puts him on timeouts, sometimes for HOURS. she takes away toys, snacks, etc. when he misbehaves. she never gives in to his tantrums, neither does my brother. he's 4 and he's the complete opposite of your child. the only time he relaxes is when my brother raises his voice or threatens a 'spanking'. what's his problem and what do you suppose they do instead?

First off, putting him on timeout for hours is a waste of everyone's time; the kid's natural attention span won't allow him to even remember what he did wrong by the time he's allowed to get up.


As far as managing his behavior is concerned, I guarantee he's getting away with things. Mom might be giving it her best to teach him right without getting physical, but he's picked up from somewhere that he's going to get away with his behaviors; the reason he's learned that is because... he's getting away with his behaviors.

- make his life less fun the more the behaviors continue. Like I said, take things away; candy, activities, toys... anything. If he knows he can kick the cat across the room and still be allowed to go play basketball w/... whoever... then of course he's gonna boot the damn cat into oblivion. When she tells him to stop throwing food at the dinner table, and he knows that life will go on the same way whether he stops or not, what incentive is there for him to stop?
- make him earn tv time or video game time by doing thing like chores and doing good on homework. If he knows that he doesn't HAVE to take out the trash in order to play XBOX, then why the hell is he going to take out the trash?


A wild kid... no, no... a wild FOUR YEAR OLD kid should have next to nothing as far as 'fun' is concerned, and the positive consequences of making his life miserable according to his behaviors won't take long at all.
 
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Excellent posts Ska.
With simple talking, reasoning, patience and explanation you could go a long long way with children.
 
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JBug88:[hr][/hr]I have no problem with the occasional hand slap.
Me neither.
richiecotite:[hr][/hr]ehhh, depends

your experiences early in life influenced your belief.

i have a 3 yr old daughter. I've occasionally slapped her hand (<3 times). The way I see it, it's like anything else there are different ways to get to the same result. For you personally, if that works, great.

Physical punishment should never harm a child, btw.
I have no problem agreeing that physical punishment is acceptable under THAT condition, and this one: last resort. When your first thought is physical, you're doing it wrong.
That should be LAST, not FIRST.

Sure, sometime instinct causes us to smack our kids' hand when they're reaching for the crystal vase at a fancy store; I'm not talking about those instances, obviously.
Me personally, I've grabbed my son's hand in those kinds of situations instead of smacking it, but... same thing, imo.
 
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I bet a lot of the same people who hit their children to discipline them would look down on someone who does the same thing to their pets. This world, man. Neither one is right, in case you were thinking I meant those who hit their kids should be okay with people hitting their pets.
 
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