The MMA Thread: DON'T ASK 4 STREAMS & NO GIFS- Islam vs Dustin on TONIGHT

[Vincent Van Goat]

He beat Maia on 10 days notice and then proceeded to destroy Munoz in a way nobody ever had

 

[bware113]

VVH you thought the knee Anderson landed on Bisping was illegal? Why?

Anderson losing his god-like reflexes is truly the biggest part of his demise, along with a much softer chin. He's getting tagged way more often now, and it's because he relies on head movement heavily. A fraction of a second is the difference. Not to mention shots he'd normally eat are causing him to blackout for quick second before coming back to life.

Weidman definitely wasn't hype. It's almost like he's lost the ability to control distance which he did exceptionally well against Anderson, Machida, Vitor and did decently against Luke. He did such a good job making everyone fight his fight. His 3 KO losses are sorta perplexing, due to how well he seems to do in the first rnd. Adjustment issues?

 

[blackcease]

I won't say Weidman was "hype", but he's a very big middleweight (huge middleweight before the IV rule started) that had elite skills on paper (the grappling in particular, and seemed to have big power in his strikes), BUT who also ran through a series of older and smaller fighters all the way up until his first loss against Rockhold. The three fights he's had in the UFC against top fighters who could match his size and weren't on the downswing in their careers have been Ls (Rockhold, Romero, Moussasi).

He's wasn't hype because he definitely has skills, and even in his losses he was competitive in every bout up until getting stopped. But he's just not the monster some people thought he was. I think that early run just had some folks thinking he was unstoppable.

I mean there was a point where folks were talking like he could go up to 205 and be a serious challenge for Jon Jones, all that talk is dead now.

Weidman definitely wasn't hype. It's almost like he's lost the ability to control distance which he did exceptionally well against Anderson, Machida, Vitor and did decently against Luke. He did such a good job making everyone fight his fight. His 3 KO losses are sorta perplexing, due to how well he seems to do in the first rnd. Adjustment issues?

He didn't control the distance against Vitor. He got blitzed and his size and chin allowed him to withstand long enough to get the takedown, and it was done deal from there. And he did well early against Machida but late in that fight Lyoto was winning the stand-up and again Weidman's size and chin were the big thing keeping him up in some of the crazier exchanges, not any type of solid defense or distance control. He always had those holes but he just didn't run into anybody with the attributes to exploit them, but now he has, three times in a row.

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

My fault. Anderson's knee was LEGAL against Bisping

For some reason I thought it came after the buzzer but Bisping literally stopped fighting due to his mouth piece falling out. Got the two mixed up

Bisping isn't anything special IMO. I like the guy but he will get beat by Rockhold 9/10 times, give credit to Bisping for winning for sure. He is more than capable of putting anyone away who isn't taking the fight as serious as they should be

Still a hell of a fighter and solid, durable as hell

 

[bware113]

He didn't control the distance against Vitor. He got blitzed and his size and chin allowed him to withstand long enough to get the takedown, and it was done deal from there. And he did well early against Machida but late in that fight Lyoto was winning the stand-up and again Weidman's size and chin were the big thing keeping him up in some of the crazier exchanges, not any type of solid defense or distance control. He always had those holes but he just didn't run into anybody with the attributes to exploit them, but now he has, three times in a row.

I hadn't seen the Vitor fight in quite sometime so I need to go rewatch. But even in the Machida fight, up until the latter portion of the 4th and most of the 5th, Weidman was doing a great job of making Machida fight his fight. Kept good distance and walked him down to the cage. It was one of the things that stood out to me especially in that fight. He was nullifying Machida. He did the same thing to Silva and was having some success doing it to Luke.

I for one never saw him being a challenge to JJ at all. Scoffed at that talk from day 1. At best he would have been an equal caliber wrestler with less striking tools and offensive weapons matched up with Jones when he had all that confidence going into the Rockhold fight. Not to mention a ~7in reach adv.

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

The only thing I'll mention about Weidman being the "bigger guy" in his wins and the "nobody could expose his striking"

I mean Machida and Vitor aren't that much smaller than Weidman, are they? Both men have fought in higher weight classes

Both Machida and Vitor were and are still considered strikers first and foremost. I mean, I'm not gonna take anything away from Chris for those wins

What it comes down to is that Rockhold, Yoel and Mousasi are beasts. Just like Machida, Vitor and Anderson were when Chris beat them

 

[blackcease]

Weidman had height weight and reach on both Lyoto and Victor, in addition to the youth advantage.

As far as them being strikers, yeah, both of them showed he was very hittable but they also showed he had a chin, in both those fights he got tee'd off on at points and survived because of his chin.

And Machida, Vitor and Anderson were not at their peaks when Weidman beat them. It's not "taking away" from Weidman, it just is what it is, it's the truth. He fought bigger dudes that were fighting at their peaks and could handle his wrestling, and also had striking credentials of their own, and he happened to lose all three of those fights. Again not taking away from his wins, I'm just stating the facts.

 

[illphillip]

When was Anderson's "peak" then?

Dude was on a 16 fight win streak. How does one determine exactly where his "peak" began or ended amidst that?

Anderson not being at his peak is not a fact. That is most certainly an unverifiable opinion.

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

You can go through most fighters, the great fighters of today and list off facts that make it seem like you poking holes in their resumes

What it comes down to is how good one thought Weidman was or still is

If someone was proclaiming Weidman as P4P or one of the greatest fighters, ok, I could understand being ultra critical of his resume. Other than that, he's beat many fighters, who may not have been in their absolute primes but were still elite fighters. Chris' only defeats have been to elite fighters. It is what it is. I still think Chris has an outside chance of coming back from this, he has shown to be below the elite tier for now

 

[Cashflow]

Welp

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

When was Anderson's "peak" then?

Dude was on a 16 fight win streak. How does one determine exactly where his "peak" began or ended amidst that?

Anderson not being at his peak is not a fact. That is most certainly an unverifiable opinion.

Chris fought Anderson in 2013, I could see the argument for saying Anderson's absolute peak was 2008-2009 when he beat Hendo and LHW's

Either way, in no way shape or form was Anderson in that big of a decline when Chris beat him. He was still considered the GOAT and going strong

 

[shogun]

anderson still looked good in their first fight. I thought he won the first round and made weidman's striking look slow when he showboated like he usually did.

 

[blackcease]

When was Anderson's "peak" then?

Dude was on a 16 fight win streak. How does one determine exactly where his "peak" began or ended amidst that?

Anderson not being at his peak is not a fact. That is most certainly an unverifiable opinion.

I mean of course it's not an exact thing, you gain knowledge as you age but you lose athleticism, and the grind wears on your body. It's hard to say where the exact peak is but I don't think it's unfair to assume you're probably not at your peak at 37 years of age. I think early UFC Anderson was his best version though.

You can go through most fighters, the great fighters of today and list off facts that make it seem like you poking holes in their resumes

What it comes down to is how good one thought Weidman was or still is

If someone was proclaiming Weidman as P4P or one of the greatest fighters, ok, I could understand being ultra critical of his resume. Other than that, he's beat many fighters, who may not have been in their absolute primes but were still elite fighters. Chris' only defeats have been to elite fighters. It is what it is. I still think Chris has an outside chance of coming back from this, he has shown to be below the elite tier for now

I don't really think we're disagreeing on these points, except for the fact that you think me talking about the early matchups is "poking holes". I think I'm just looking for trends to figure out just how good or bad the guy is. I think I was pretty fair in my assessment but enh, agree to disagree I suppose.

 

[illphillip]

When was Anderson's "peak" then?

Dude was on a 16 fight win streak. How does one determine exactly where his "peak" began or ended amidst that?

Anderson not being at his peak is not a fact. That is most certainly an unverifiable opinion.

I mean of course it's not an exact thing, you gain knowledge as you age but you lose athleticism, and the grind wears on your body. It's hard to say where the exact peak is but I don't think it's unfair to assume you're probably not at your peak at 37 years of age. I think early UFC Anderson was his best version though.

I'm not going to use age as an arbitrary factor. Great athletes defy convention when it comes to age all of the time.

If you're trying to judge a "peak" I'd assume it'd be based on performance.

Otherwise, I don't know how you can gauge his peak in his fight against Bonnar (the one before Weidman) vs. his fight with Leben. Silva was KNIFING through dudes at both points.

DC was 36 when he beat Rumble and Gus a few months apart.

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

Yeah, like I said, it's a circular discussion when in reality we should just state our bottom line opinion of him during his reign and now that he's on a 3 fight losing streak

IMO he was definitely the elite of the elite until the losing streak. It had absolutely nothing to do with "hype" which is where this discussion originated. He beat all the top contenders during the time. If Mousasi would have got the W over Machida, Chris would have fought him then

Yoel was still on his way up

Rockhold and Souza were really the only two Chris hadn't fought yet during his reign

 

[QU!K]

While I don't think Weidman was all hype he certainly got a lot of push when he was champ on some 'MERICA great white hope type ish

 

[blackcease]

Yeah, like I said, it's a circular discussion when in reality we should just state our bottom line opinion of him during his reign and now that he's on a 3 fight losing streak

IMO he was definitely the elite of the elite until the losing streak. It had absolutely nothing to do with "hype" which is where this discussion originated. He beat all the top contenders during the time. If Mousasi would have got the W over Machida, Chris would have fought him then

Yoel was still on his way up


Rockhold and Souza were really the only two Chris hadn't fought yet during his reign

Well see my point is that he wasn't elite of the elite until the losing streak, he's the same dude now that he's always been. The only difference is the people he's been matched up against and their particular attributes. And maybe his confidence if anything. He's not a bum now, he just is what he is, and has always been.

I'm not going to use age as an arbitrary factor. Great athletes defy convention when it comes to age all of the time.

If you're trying to judge a "peak" I'd assume it'd be based on performance.

Otherwise, I don't know how you can gauge his peak in his fight against Bonnar (the one before Weidman) vs. his fight with Leben. Silva was KNIFING through dudes at both points.

DC was 36 when he beat Rumble and Gus a few months apart.

I still think Anderson was at his best in the early UFC days.


As far as the Cormier argument, he didn't start MMA until late. 2009 was his first fight and he was already 30 years old, so it's reasonable to think that he might be hitting his own peak late because it'd still take him a couple years to develop his subs and striking enough to get to the elite level. Kinda like Sergio in boxing, he hit his personal peak late because he started late. Anderson on the other hand had his first pro fight in 97 at 22 years old so I don't think they're comparable in fight years. I don't think the Weidman fight was his peak

And also just because you're older doesn't mean you can't perform well, even if it's not your peak. B-Hop beat Pascal at 46 years old to win a title. I don't think you would argue that that's the best version of Hopkins, but it was good enough to beat the champ that night.

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

If Chris is who he always was then were all his opponents just not good? Leads into a whole other discussion

I've already said Chris hasn't evolved enough, that's a fair statement

Anywho, tired of discussing Chris at this point lol. He's not captivating enough to talk about in length. I tried looking back through the thread before he fought Rockhold to see what we were saying but I gave up lol

 

[blackcease]

I'm pretty sure I was saying the same things about the size and chin in the past in between calling him a douchebag . And nah the opponents were good he was just a rough matchup for them. But yeah, I'm off the Weidman talk for now

 

[frank mucus]

Post USADA weidman also looked much smaller

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

DC said straight out he's not going to HW...

I would have loved to see that. LHW is boring tbh

I'd like to see DC vs Jones II and then see one or both of them go to HW lol

 

[illphillip]

I'm not going to use age as an arbitrary factor. Great athletes defy convention when it comes to age all of the time.

If you're trying to judge a "peak" I'd assume it'd be based on performance.

Otherwise, I don't know how you can gauge his peak in his fight against Bonnar (the one before Weidman) vs. his fight with Leben. Silva was KNIFING through dudes at both points.

DC was 36 when he beat Rumble and Gus a few months apart.

I still think Anderson was at his best in the early UFC days.


As far as the Cormier argument, he didn't start MMA until late. 2009 was his first fight and he was already 30 years old, so it's reasonable to think that he might be hitting his own peak late because it'd still take him a couple years to develop his subs and striking enough to get to the elite level. Kinda like Sergio in boxing, he hit his personal peak late because he started late. Anderson on the other hand had his first pro fight in 97 at 22 years old so I don't think they're comparable in fight years. I don't think the Weidman fight was his peak

And also just because you're older doesn't mean you can't perform well, even if it's not your peak. B-Hop beat Pascal at 46 years old to win a title. I don't think you would argue that that's the best version of Hopkins, but it was good enough to beat the champ that night.

So the age alone is not the sole determining factor is what you're saying? There are other factors involved?

Exactly.

I'm not even going to bother with a 46 year old Bernard Hopkins Maybe his peak was at 36-37 when, after 40 pro fights, he beat Trinidad, Joppy, De La Hoya etc.

I have no reason to believe the Anderson that beat Bonnar, Okami, Chael, Maia and humiliated Griffin wasn't as good as the one that beat Leben, Franklin, Lutter, Marquardt etc.

There is nothing about his in ring performance that would suggest such a thing. So, as I stated, that's just a matter of opinion.

And I'm not just going to say that's the case because Weidman beat him next. Maybe Weidman was just better.

That's the point here. I'm not going to create false narratives about guys for the sake of debate.

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

Depending on how Jacare or Whittaker looks tomorrow, at this point they should make an interim title for MW with Yoel being one half of the equation. Yes, I know another interim is lame but this GSP B.S. is holding things up

They can either put Mousasi or the winner of Jacare/Whittaker vs Yoel

Have the loser of Jacare/Whittaker fight Rockhold or Weidman

I really don't want to see Mousasi vs Weidman again, just chalk it up as an unfortunate circumstance but the division needs to keep moving forward 

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

Just saw Rashad saying he will be training with Mark Henry for his next fight

 

[SORIANOTRON]

Ive already had this discussion in here many pages back but...

chris is great dont get me wrong, but he was no destroyer, dominant champion the ufc was marketing him out to be.....

LOL @ munoz dood was like 37 when they fought and mark aint never been a contender man....

Lyoto fight was probably his best win, he gutted that **** out and outlasted machida and turned it up in the championship rounds to win...that was his most impressive win to me

but then when you see what luke and romero did to that same lyoto....ehhhhh

beating vitor aint no big deal

Who said the Luke fight was close??? Dude he got finished TWICE in that fight

and its not like Chris goes out and puts on these amazing performances or electrifying finishes...he just a big tough wrestler with decent striking...

I always thought at 185 the ELITE were Jacare, Luke, Romero, Moose and then everyone else....

still feel that way, Chris would loose to jacare as well so...I mean you cant really call him elite at this point, the UFC wouldn't even book that fight now

he might have been elite before, but he wasn't fighting elite dudes until he fought luke.

and by the time he fought anderson...dood was mentally checked out man...16 fight win streak???? beat literally everyone I can imagine it can get booring at the top...it was bound to happen...and all that showboating was the MAIN reason he lost, its not like chris went in there and destroyed him. He caught him as he was showboating.

I think until we see luke fight romero and jacare we will have the clear picture...

romero and jacare are neck and neck...to me Moose is right behind them, I believe moose would beat luke as well