What would a player have to do to be considered greater than Jordan?

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Be able to appeal to the media and the business world (underlined for emphasis). Endorsements = exposure and you'll be recognized to a greater extent if you can reach as many people as possible.

Oh yeah, and be able to play some decent ball as well.
 
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Stats, longevity, heightened level of play in the postseason, clutch scoring, championships. Do those things better than Jordan and you have your answer.
 
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Originally Posted by bijald0331

7 finals MVP's.
this.

and dominate both ends of the floor.

but in all honesty there is so much that goes into jordan's legacy that i doubt could be re-duplicated.

-endless game winning shots.  (can be done)
-3 titles in succession to a team with no previous championships.(can be done..)
-retiring and his team struggling without him. only to then come back and win 3 more rings in succesion. (can be done)
-scoring titles. (can be done)
-creating the "air jordan" brand and globalizing the game.
-ending his career as a bull with a game winner to seal his 6th championship.(can be done)
-win a championship with bill wennington as your starting center (can't be done)
 
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Here's the resume that would need to be topped for me to personally call someone greater than Jordan:

- 6 Finals appearance, 6 Finals wins, 6 Finals MVPs
- Defensive Player of the Year
- 10 scoring titles
- 5 MVPs
- 2 gold medals
- average more points in the playoffs than the regular season

I'm not saying someone would need to best ALL of those things, getting 7 Finals MVPs in 7 Finals and never losing one, getting 2 DPOYs, 11 scoring titles, 6 MVPs, 3 gold medals, and doubling their playoff performance over the reg. season... but they would need to have a resume that is better than that body of work.

And that is one HELL of a resume... and there is still so much more I left out. Those are just the first things that came to mind real quick, so I guess I'm most impressed by all of those together. I mean, I think he was the All NBA 1st Teamer for his position and an All Star ever full season he played from '85 - '98. Rookie of the Year. So much, man.
 

MVP

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Well according to NT, no one wil ever be able to. But in terms of accomplishments, right now it's looking like only Bron (b/c of age) will be able to reach it with MVPs, scoring, etc. But he has to start winning titles and soon. KD could be a dark horse, he's probably gonna be leading the league in scoring for the next 10 years.
 
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Hes the blueprint to everything, from his game to the marketing aspect.
So many intangibles and the first at many things

This could be a never ending argument
 
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It doesn't matter what era you're in; if you're dominant to the tune of 6-for-6 in the Finals w/ 6 Finals MVPs, 10 (I think) all defense 1st teams, 2 gold medals, 5 MVPs, 10 scoring titles, DPOY, and you averaged more points in the playoffs than in the regular season, it doesn't matter what era you're in, you're on Jordan's level.

All you can do is play against your peers, and if you play against your peers and grab like 8 Finals MVPs and championships and a couple DPOYs and 8 or 9 scoring titles and a gold medal, you're on Jordan's level. Period. I would definitely have no problem looking at the rest of your body of work to maybe argue that you're better than Jordan.

But right NOW, no one is anywhere CLOSE to playing against their peers and building a resume that sniffs the resume Jordan built against his, and the less complicated version of that statement is simply that right NOW no one is anywhere CLOSE to Jordan.

No, Kobe fans. No. 4-2 in the Finals w/ 1 Finals MVP, 2 scoring titles, 12 All Stars, 1 regular MVP... that is nowhere CLOSE to the resume I listed above. Is it closer than anyone else playing today? Yes, in my opinion... but Duncan (ROTY, 12 ASGs, 4-0 in the Finals w/ 3 Finals MVPs, 2 reg. MVPs, 8 All Defense 1st Teams) and Shaq (ROTY, 15 ASGs, 4-2 in the Finals w/ 3 Finals MVPs, 1 reg. MVP) might disagree with me.
 

big j 33

Supporter
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Basically as Ska said, either match or beat his accomplishments and stats.
 
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Originally Posted by 23ska909red02

No, Kobe fans. No. 4-2 in the Finals w/ 1 Finals MVP, 2 scoring titles, 12 All Stars, 1 regular MVP... that is nowhere CLOSE to the resume I listed above. Is it closer than anyone else playing today? Yes, in my opinion... but Duncan (ROTY, 12 ASGs, 4-0 in the Finals w/ 3 Finals MVPs, 2 reg. MVPs, 8 All Defense 1st Teams) and Shaq (ROTY, 15 ASGs, 4-2 in the Finals w/ 3 Finals MVPs, 1 reg. MVP) might disagree with me.
come on ska, nobody had even mentioned Kobe until you brought him up. not only that, Lebron's (who is 0-1 in the Finals) name had been mentioned or referred to three times and you said nothing about him. you went straight at "Kobe fans"...


anyways, for me it will take:

1) becoming the top scorer in NBA history (PPG). Jordan is #1 all-time on that list at 30.12ppg, even higher than Wilt. PPG is the first stat you can point to if you want to define dominance as a basketball player. if you are not #1 on that list or at least very close, you're not the GOAT to me. James is at 27.78 ppg.. he will need a couple 30+ ppg seasons if he wants to get up there.

2) Multiple league MVPs.

2) 6+ championships, 6+ finals MVPs. nothing less is acceptable.

if anybody comes along and satisfies those three requirements, then we'll talk.
 
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DOWNTOWN43:[hr][/hr]
23ska909red02:[hr][/hr]No, Kobe fans. No. 4-2 in the Finals w/ 1 Finals MVP, 2 scoring titles, 12 All Stars, 1 regular MVP... that is nowhere CLOSE to the resume I listed above. Is it closer than anyone else playing today? Yes, in my opinion... but Duncan (ROTY, 12 ASGs, 4-0 in the Finals w/ 3 Finals MVPs, 2 reg. MVPs, 8 All Defense 1st Teams) and Shaq (ROTY, 15 ASGs, 4-2 in the Finals w/ 3 Finals MVPs, 1 reg. MVP) might disagree with me.
come on ska, nobody had even mentioned Kobe until you brought him up. not only that, Lebron's (who is 0-1 in the Finals) name had been mentioned or referred to three times and you said nothing about him. you went straight at "Kobe fans"...
I wasn't 'going at' Kobe fans; I was responding to fans of the one I feel like is closer than anyone else. I don't care if LeBron had been mentioned a billion times; I didn't address him being mentioned because in my opinion (and it was my reply), he's MUCH farther away than Kobe is right now. It's laughable to say that LeBron's body of work... RIGHT NOW... is even comparable to Jordan's. It's not even CLOSE in my opinion, so there's no need for me to even waste my time addressing that.
 
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SKA says it best.

The 6 for 6 in the finals speaks the loudest for me. Kobe and LeBron have already blown that, so in my opinion, the body of work is going to take alot to catch Jordan. What's amazing is that he did so much, in so little time. (84-85 through 97-98, injured in 85-86, with 93-94 off completely and 94-95 in half, we won't even talk about the Wizards days
) In reality, only 11 full seasons.

Dude was the ultimate competitor, the ultimate winner. You look at LeBron, and you can tell, sometimes dude just takes nights off. And I don't think I'll ever be able to look at Kobe the same after he let Boston beat them by THIRTY to win the title.

Like Ska said, his resume' is so solid, passing him in one or two achievements isn't even gonna get you in line to the club, much less in the door.
 
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market, commercial or brand name appeal should not be a requirement.  I think its about the stats and wins which some of you already gone over.
 
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I started to write a longass response on quick reply, accidentally hit back button.

So anyways...
1) Have a fantastic, well-rounded game. Consistently improve your game every year. Continue to polish your game, while still being at the top of your game OUT OF THE GATES. Kevin Durant is doing his best impression of that, and before that it was LeBron James. Doing work every off-season to improve what you need. Defend, score, create for others, etc. One of the best ways to represent a player? How many All-NBA/All-Defense awards do you have? All-Star games are nice, but I don't hold as much validity in them.

2) Score. People remember you if you score. I'm sorry to say but people say name great scorers, they'll come up with a lot more names than if you asked someone for great defenders. You'll have names like Bernard King, Iceman, Allen Iverson thrown out there. People LOVE seeing players score that basketball. The best NBA players normally score the ball a ton, and no hate to guys like Hakeem the Dream, but people won't recognize him as much for a scorer, which IMO takes away from his resume, even though he's quite frankly the most polished player ever to lace 'em up who wasn't a Guard. Scoring titles never hurt anybody.

3) WIN. What else do people love? Winners. Wrack up those MVPs, Finals MVPs, and most importantly the rings. The first measure of an NBA player? How many rings you got. Jordan, Kareem, Bill Russell, they're REMEMBERED for being WINNERS. You'll have your Tracy McGradys, your Allen Iversons, and even your Gilbert Arenas' who perform at a VERY high level for a season or two, but they don't win in the post-season, or they don't keep it up over their career. That's what separates them. Not just NBA titles either, NCAA titles too.

4) This is somewhat trivial, but for whatever reason, a lot of people like players who have won Olympic Gold. The media just eats it up. Personally? I don't really care for it, the US is so dominant. I see why people eat it up, they like that players represent their country, I just personally ain't a fan.

So when you take those into context, you can't tell me the greatest NBA players of all time DON'T fill that criteria.

Jordan. Wilt. Kareem. Magic. Bird. Russell. Big O. Kobe. Shaq. Hakeem. Duncan. (This is by NO means a definitive list, these are just names that came to as THE BEST EVER).

Jordan- 5x MVP. 6x NBA Champion. 6x Finals MVP. 11x All-NBA. 9x All-Defense. 1x DPOY. 1x NCAA Champion. 2x Gold Medal. 10x Scoring titles.
Wilt- 4x MVP. 2x NBA Champion. 1x Finals MVP. 10x All-NBA. 2x All-Defense. 7 Scoring titles.
Kareem- 6x MVP. 6x NBA Champion. 2x Finals MVP. 15 All-NBA. 11 All-Defense. 3x NCAA Champion. 2 Scoring titles.
Magic- 3x MVP. 5x NBA Champion. 3x Finals MVP. 10x All-NBA. 1 Gold Medal.
Bird- 3x MVP. 3x NBA Champion. 2x Finals MVP. 10x All-NBA. 3x All-Defense. 1 Gold Medal.
Russell- 5x MVP. 11x NBA Champion. 11x All-NBA. 1x All-Defense. 1x Gold Medal.
Big O- 1x NBA MVP. 1x NBA Champion. 11x All-NBA. 1 Gold Medal.
Shaq- 3x MVP. 4x NBA Champion. 14x All-NBA. 3x All-Defense. 2x Scoring titles. 2x Gold Medal. 15x NBA wives slept with.
Kobe- 1x MVP. 4x NBA Champion. 11 All-NBA. 9x All-Defense. 2x Scoring titles. 1 Gold Medal.
Hakeem- 1x MVP. 2x NBA Champion. 2x Finals MVP. 12x All-NBA. 9x All-defense. 2 DPOY. 1 Gold Medal.
Duncan- 2x MVP. 4x NBA Champion. 3x Finals MVP. 12x All-NBA. 12x All-Defense.

Note: Russell and Wilt a bit hindered because All-Defense team and Finals MVP weren't implemented until late in their careers, and Russell never won a Finals MVP because it wasn't introduced until after he retired. Big O I mentioned because although he doesn't have as many MVPs or Championships, he was a VERY-well rounded player.

Interesting fact: Tim Duncan has been an All-Defense/All-NBA for every year of his career.

Lastly I want to say I really don't like the idea of having a BEST PLAYER of all-time. For their position? That's fine, but I was never comfortable with the idea of having to share that title for a big-man and a great guard. Hakeem and Kareem were FABULOUS big-men, but they really don't have the same kind of comparison as far as NBA-game goes. Michael Jordan is one of the most flashy NBA players ever, and comparing him to those guys, it's not really fair.






Can someone do it? TOP Jordan? It'll be interesting to see. But we would have never guessed Kobe would be one of the best, nor Duncan. We just have to appreciate it once they do come around.

Personally? It's going to be hard to rack up multiple MVPs, Championships these days.

I hadn't written an essay in a while, so I felt like I owed yall one.
 
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