Where does Gary Payton rank among the all time great point guards?

As my favorite player in my entire NBA viewing life, he's top 10, arguably top 5.

The lists is usually
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Kidd, GP, Cousy, Frazier, anybody could make a case for these HOFers at 5.

As for the discussion between Kidd and GP,

The better PG - Jason Kidd

The better overall player - Gary Payton
 
Originally Posted by MJsaver

like 7 or 8...

GP > kidd IMO...

Kidd was an GREAT passer but thats the ONLY thing he has on GP.

I know primarily a points job is to pass but thats not where it ends..

There wasnt anything GP couldnt do on the court..Post up, Lock up, pass, shoot etc....

Kidds Passing skills cant make up for his inability to shoot, WHEN TALKING ALL TIME GREATS.


*not from the bay*
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i agree. GP was a beast. would talk %!%+ to any player and back it up on the court. great defender and never backed down from the competition. you willprobably never see a pg get defender of the year for a long time. especially back to back
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u cant forget as great as kidd's court vision and passing is/was, gp was right there. when u are a below average shooter and scorer like kidd, of course urgonna excel at setting up your teammates with that kind of vision. GP was an elite scorer, he'd give his man buckets any which way he wanted. one of thebest postup guards in his time, dont forget. even still GP was right there with Kidd dropping dimes and running his team


gp>kidd
easy top 10
 
One of the few players from the 90s that I think is overrated. His defense was great, but it's annoying how it reached these mythic proportions and peoplecall him the best defensive PG ever, "easily". He absolutely ROBBED Scottie Pippen of that DPOY in 95-96, and what makes it more annoying is thatPip, the greatest perimeter defender ever ended his career without a single DPOY. Also, Mookie Blaylock's and Sidney Moncrief's D > Payton's.

u cant forget as great as kidd's court vision and passing is/was, gp was right there. when u are a below average shooter and scorer like kidd, of course ur gonna excel at setting up your teammates with that kind of vision. GP was an elite scorer, he'd give his man buckets any which way he wanted. one of the best postup guards in his time, dont forget. even still GP was right there with Kidd dropping dimes and running his team


Not really. Payton ain't seein Kidd's passing game. If you want to put that much of a positive spin on Payton's passing game and that much of anegative spin on Kidd's scoring, then I might as well say that Kidd was "right there" next to Payton in terms of scoring, he averaged 20 ppg inthe playoffs the two years he led the Nets to the finals. Also, what about rebounding, something that Payton had very little off and Kidd being a top 3rebounding PG of all time.. Kidd > Payton.. Another player who should rank higher than Payton is Kevin Johnson. Chris Paul will rank higher in a couple ofseasons as well.
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Xtapolapacetl wrote:
u cant forget as great as kidd's court vision and passing is/was, gp was right there. when u are a below average shooter and scorer like kidd, of course ur gonna excel at setting up your teammates with that kind of vision. GP was an elite scorer, he'd give his man buckets any which way he wanted. one of the best postup guards in his time, dont forget. even still GP was right there with Kidd dropping dimes and running his team


Not really. Payton ain't seein Kidd's passing game. If you want to put that much of a positive spin on Payton's passing game and that much of a negative spin on Kidd's scoring, then I might as well say that Kidd was "right there" next to Payton in terms of scoring, he averaged 20 ppg in the playoffs the two years he led the Nets to the finals. Also, what about rebounding, something that Payton had very little off and Kidd being a top 3 rebounding PG of all time.. Kidd > Payton.. Another player who should rank higher than Payton is Kevin Johnson. Chris Paul will rank higher in a couple of seasons as well.
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gary grabbed just under 5 boards a game for 9 or 10years, (while avg 20+, 8+ assists)

as far as rebounding goes, that puts him 4th all time (pg's) behind oscar, magic, and kidd


and KJ... Wow
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Originally Posted by Super T1ght


Xtapolapacetl wrote:


u cant forget as great as kidd's court vision and passing is/was, gp was right there. when u are a below average shooter and scorer like kidd, of course ur gonna excel at setting up your teammates with that kind of vision. GP was an elite scorer, he'd give his man buckets any which way he wanted. one of the best postup guards in his time, dont forget. even still GP was right there with Kidd dropping dimes and running his team
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Not really. Payton ain't seein Kidd's passing game. If you want to put that much of a positive spin on Payton's passing game and that much of a negative spin on Kidd's scoring, then I might as well say that Kidd was "right there" next to Payton in terms of scoring, he averaged 20 ppg in the playoffs the two years he led the Nets to the finals. Also, what about rebounding, something that Payton had very little off and Kidd being a top 3 rebounding PG of all time.. Kidd > Payton.. Another player who should rank higher than Payton is Kevin Johnson. Chris Paul will rank higher in a couple of seasons as well.
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gary grabbed just under 5 boards a game for 9 or 10 years, (while avg 20+, 8+ assists)

as far as rebounding goes, that puts him 4th all time (pg's) behind oscar, magic, and kidd


and KJ... Wow
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Oooh.. Wow, how impressive for a 6'4 guy to grab 4 point something boards for some seasons.. Even Muggsy Bogues had a 4.1 rpg season. If Kidd was able toaverage 8+ over a season and 7+ several other seasons, he should've been able to grab more.. And so what if he's 4th all-time in PG rebounding?It's cause he played so many games. Am I to believe that John Stockton was a better rebounder than Steve Francis as well? Anyway, the reason why I broughthis rebounding up was because the guy who was comparing him to Kidd didn't mention it, and Kidd was easily a much superior rebounder.
 
DEF got a point about KIDDS rebounding as a plus on his side.

Not enough of a plus to put him ahead of GP in my BOOK..its not like GP's light years ahead..

For me J. Kidd is the only GREAT point, that wasnt a threat from the primeter...

Look at him right now, IF HE COULD CONSISTENLY SHOOT HE'D BE SO MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE..

Thats why most of the greats were STILL effective PAST THEIR PRIME BECAUSE THEY COULD SHOOT..

I guess it says MORE about KIDDS passing ability than anything, that he was ABLE to reach ALL-TIME status

despite having that flaw in is game....Yes i like KIDD, thats just how i look at it.
 
You guys shouldn't laugh too hard at KJ.

If KJ played in this era with the no hand checking, he gets 30 a night with 12 assists a lot like CP3 doin right now.

NOBODY could keep KJ out the paint without pushing and fouling him all the way up the court back then. KJ better then Steve Nash ever wished he was.

Can't beleive I'm in here helpin Xtapo.
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Mookie Blaylock's and Sidney Moncrief's D > Payton's.
**** with that nonsense, no doubt both played great D, but Mookie played the passing lanes like no other. GP was straight suffocating opposingpoint guards in his prime.

He absolutely ROBBED Scottie Pippen of that DPOY in 95-96
He didn't rob Pippen of %**%, GP earned that award with his play that season, quit lying to yourself.Pippen should have won that award in 94-95 when Mutombo robbed him.

Another player who should rank higher than Payton is Kevin Johnson
This the same Kevin Johnson that got strangled by GP in the 93 WCF?

Oooh.. Wow, how impressive for a 6'4 guy to grab 4 point something boards for some seasons.
GP avg. over 4 rebounds a game for 9 straights seasons, which is pretty damn good considering he played in a big man era for the better part ofthe 90's.

Not really. Payton ain't seein Kidd's passing game. If you want to put that much of a positive spin on Payton's passing game and that much of a negative spin on Kidd's scoring, then I might as well say that Kidd was "right there" next to Payton in terms of scoring, he averaged 20 ppg in the playoffs the two years he led the Nets to the finals. Also, what about rebounding, something that Payton had very little off and Kidd being a top 3 rebounding PG of all time.. Kidd > Payton..

No doubt, Kidd was the better passer and rebounder than Payton but as far as scoring and defense goes, GP gets the advantage. Kidd's abilityto put the ball in the basket is laughable from 15 feet out. And don't talk about his finals appearances as if it was some accomplishment because you knowdamn well those NBA finals were already determined by the winner of the WCF and somebody had to represent that god awful eastern conference. Payton's onefinal appearance during his prime in 96 >> Kidd's 2 finals appearance. Atleast the Sonics put up a fight, and Payton held MJ to his lowest FG% in allhis finals appearances.

03 should have been the nets year it went to game 7
Spurs won that series 4-2, Nets won their two games by 1 and 2 pts. They could have easily been swept.
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Originally Posted by yAyToNyO

Mookie Blaylock's and Sidney Moncrief's D > Payton's.
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**** with that nonsense, no doubt both played great D, but Mookie played the passing lanes like no other. GP was straight suffocating opposing point guards in his prime.

He absolutely ROBBED Scottie Pippen of that DPOY in 95-96
He didn't rob Pippen of $+%*, GP earned that award with his play that season, quit lying to yourself. Pippen should have won that award in 94-95 when Mutombo robbed him.

Another player who should rank higher than Payton is Kevin Johnson
This the same Kevin Johnson that got strangled by GP in the 93 WCF?

Oooh.. Wow, how impressive for a 6'4 guy to grab 4 point something boards for some seasons.
GP avg. over 4 rebounds a game for 9 straights seasons, which is pretty damn good considering he played in a big man era for the better part of the 90's.

Not really. Payton ain't seein Kidd's passing game. If you want to put that much of a positive spin on Payton's passing game and that much of a negative spin on Kidd's scoring, then I might as well say that Kidd was "right there" next to Payton in terms of scoring, he averaged 20 ppg in the playoffs the two years he led the Nets to the finals. Also, what about rebounding, something that Payton had very little off and Kidd being a top 3 rebounding PG of all time.. Kidd > Payton..

No doubt, Kidd was the better passer and rebounder than Payton but as far as scoring and defense goes, GP gets the advantage. Kidd's ability to put the ball in the basket is laughable from 15 feet out. And don't talk about his finals appearances as if it was some accomplishment because you know damn well those NBA finals were already determined by the winner of the WCF and somebody had to represent that god awful eastern conference. Payton's one final appearance during his prime in 96 >> Kidd's 2 finals appearance. Atleast the Sonics put up a fight, and Payton held MJ to his lowest FG% in all his finals appearances.

03 should have been the nets year it went to game 7
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Originally Posted by CP1708

You guys shouldn't laugh too hard at KJ.

If KJ played in this era with the no hand checking, he gets 30 a night with 12 assists a lot like CP3 doin right now.

NOBODY could keep KJ out the paint without pushing and fouling him all the way up the court back then. KJ better then Steve Nash ever wished he was.

Can't beleive I'm in here helpin Xtapo.
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If KJ played in an era with no illegal defense and more complicated zone screens he would be forced into taking jumpers all day.

I'm not buying this no hand check defense is a million times better than defense now.
 
1.Magic
2.Oscar
3.Zeke
4.Walt Frazier
5.Stockton
6.Cousy
7.Kidd
8.Payton
9.Mo Cheeks
10.Lenny Wilkens
 
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Yall must not have seen Kevin Johnson play. He could play. He had the athleticism, and the outside touch. A problem every night.
 
How on earth is Zeke better than Stockton? Like really.

I feel we give him a lot of credit because he was short.
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