Why Are There So Many Murders in Chicago?

[sreggie101]

in any demographic, background, religion, whatever...IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD CHILDREN, DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN.. its as simple as that. If you are working at a long hour job but aren't making a decent salary than you cannot afford the time and money to dedicate to raising a kid. going against this rule results in what we see today.

Simply asking people to make this logical and rational choice doesn't result in it becoming the norm. 70% of black children are raised in a home without a father. People aren't simply going to stop having relations. What we have seen in NYC as a result of increased availability of birth control may be what we need to see more of in Chicago schools.


Teen Pregnancy down 27% in New York City over the last decade | Health Commissioner Tom Farley credits the new results to contraceptives and teens delaying sexual activity.

NYC schools giving out tens of thousands of doses of the 'morning-after pill' | NYPost

yes you are right, and im going to go ahead on cosign all of this. (at least you saw it as logical and rational ) . i think the increase in availability to contraception combined with support from the chicago education system can stem unwanted pregnancies, which in turn reduce, unwanted births/abandoned kids. im guessing that out of the 70% of black kids who grow up without a father, more than 50% end up on the wrong path in some form or another...?

thank you. i always laugh. yup, keef is to blame.

As others have said, it's not a matter of blaming anyone. It's a matter of acknowledging Chief Keef and other rappers like him are an embodiment of that violent culture of lifestyle. It's a mainstream portrayal of that culture and as such serves to legitimize it on a minor level. How? Mainly for the younger kids, who see these rappers as successful because they're rich powerful celebrities that can do whatever they want. And with black children being raised by single parents in about 70% of black households, many are looking for guidance and role models.

Listen to Lupe here. He chooses his words carefully.




EDIT: Just want to thank NT for making this a really successful thread so far. Very respectful debate/discussion on a heated topic. Lets keep it rolling.

thread is appreciated. interesting topic that i feel doesn't get enough attention. also my workload is stupid low so im bored as **** at the office now.

as for the lupe video i like how he describes it as incubation. it really is the best way to picture the rinse and repeat life of ignorance and violence that gets past on from generation to generation within these communities.

Why doesn't the NAACP come in and do something worthwhile aside from being a scapegoat?  Like it's been said by a couple posters above me, people on the streets have no respect for authority- so why does it matter if there's 1 or 10 cop cars on the block?  It's gonna be a never ending cycle for our population if the root cause isn't addressed!  We need supervision in the family.  Don't blame the schools, the cops, the system.  Our president is black- that shows that anything is possible today.  The world is yours, and unfortunately people are never gonna get out of the hood, the violence, the drugs if the problem isn't fixed at home.  Is it the cops job to make sure our kids get the homework done?  Is the teacher responsible for what his or her students do 6 hours after the final bell rings?  

I hate to say it, but I really think the Bill Cosby mentality is the only way to fix problems like this.  We need to stop pointing fingers and be held accountable for our actions!

my man


repped and cosigned. i have been preaching this from the start. if it starts with the kids than the solution starts at home. PERIOD. anything else would be a big help but wouldn't solve the problem fully, you need to start at the source. the same way children aren't born racist, the same way they aren't born violent and rachet. this non snitching, violent, gang life is taught, plain and simple. if you have a kid, you be responsible for that kid. (with that said, if you can't be responsible for a kid, use a ******g condom ) make sure that kid knows that the keef way isn't poppin and that it will only land you in jail or in the earth.

Lets be clear, im talking about black folks. Yes, black. Im lying or sugarcoating if i put it any other way. most of the killing is within the black community. and at damn near 50 in 4 weeks into 2013, thats a lotta ******g blacks killing/being killed. the no snitching clause in this mess is just the cherry on top. Now if i sound racist than so be it. I'm black and it pains me to say all this, but wtf am i supposed to say? Give reasons as to why its not black folks fault? Hardships aside, most of these killings aren't survival (food, shelter, etc) related. Its on some ********. And there is no gov't body, law, or social institution to blame more than the people themselves.

If kids are brought up right, then they in turn will instill in their kids the same level of responsibility and desire to make something of themselves in life.and succeed. But if they are brought up with lack of responsible parenting, then it will continue to be a rinse and repeat process and **** will never change.


for reference http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/01/02/us/chicago-killings.html

the thing is it is bigger than that, too many make the assumption that people aren't being accountable but what about the accountability society has to its people? the world we currently live in makes it harder to get by for a whole lot of people, one of the biggest things coming up for a lot of black & latino youth is how early we are introduced/get accustomed to criminalization, and up not getting second chances & opportunities to make good on them if they are given. society seems to have decided this is ok, there definitely something that need to addressed in the culture of impoverished hoods, but to say that it boils down to accountability is naive; how is it my fault that i don't make enough bread to comfortable take care of my family? that i may have to work multiple jobs/long hours that keeps me out touch with what may or may not be going on in my household? education/justice system/globalization/technology/war on drugs has disproportionally affected urban blacks & latinos, all these things are factors; definitely not impossible to overcome but the deck is HEAVILY stacked against you if you are an urban minority and the exceptions make it seem to be easier/more possible than it maybe is. as more people's skills be made obsolete/less valuable by the pace of change maybe people will come around to discussing how we need to proceed together & actually engage in some thoughtfulness on how we balance capitalism/competition with actually caring about what happens to actual people...

strong rebuttal, but challenge accepted. yes society does share some responsibility to the welfare of its people. times are changing. the cost of living has rapidly gone up at a greater rate than the avg salary. this trend is especially hard for those who make at or below min wage and work long hours. their costs are going up but their ability to pay gets harder...i get that. this reason alone it can be hard for parents to do their job as parents, but this isn't to say that even if they had the time, they'd do a good job because they could just as well be as ignorant as the kids running the streets. but why does everyone make it seem like a parent saying "hey i want my kid to get outta this area, outta this life, to do better than what we have now" is impossible? you don't make enough bread because you're at a job that doesn't pay, and in this case its more likely because its a menial job that doesn't require extensive education. so its only logical to conclude that education will generally allow for acquiring higher paying jobs.

assuming many black and latino youth come up in rough areas, early exposure to crime and that street life is an issue def. these rappers who are out there glorifiying it to these same youth are just making the problem worse far worse than it needs to be, but as was stated to me before, keef (example i used) although adding to the problem, isn't the source. he is a product of the environment that incubates this type of mentality.
BUT THAT isn't to say that a kid coming up in this environment can't walk down the right path. To contrast the parent who works long hours, there are many parents who work an eternity but still make sure they do whatever it takes to get their kid to college on a path to success. WORD to Sonya Sotomayor, supreme court justice from the south bx.

job markets are changing, and the demand for more science/medicine related education is skyrocketing. kids need to adjust to the needs to society so they can find a place in it. the resulting effect will allow for more jobs and a stronger economy. engineering professors, and famous scientific minds have been saying this for years.

You could go to the roughest school...doesn't matter. If you succeed in school, you can go to college and its happened many times. America is hard for a minority. But not impossible. But a kid to succeed needs to be pushed to do so. that is the only way. only then will the trend that incubates the violent hood life break. you can't rely solely on social institutions to be 100% responsible for the kid. won't work, word to dookey from the wire.


and last point, how do address ignorance? lotta people in the hood stupid and ignorant as ****, abusing the system to buy **** they can't afford and/or absolutely don't need.

 

[jchambers]

in any demographic, background, religion, whatever...IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD CHILDREN, DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN.. its as simple as that. If you are working at a long hour job but aren't making a decent salary than you cannot afford the time and money to dedicate to raising a kid. going against this rule results in what we see today.

Simply asking people to make this logical and rational choice doesn't result in it becoming the norm. 70% of black children are raised in a home without a father. People aren't simply going to stop having relations. What we have seen in NYC as a result of increased availability of birth control may be what we need to see more of in Chicago schools.


Teen Pregnancy down 27% in New York City over the last decade | Health Commissioner Tom Farley credits the new results to contraceptives and teens delaying sexual activity.

NYC schools giving out tens of thousands of doses of the 'morning-after pill' | NYPost

yes you are right, and im going to go ahead on cosign all of this. (at least you saw it as logical and rational ) . i think the increase in availability to contraception combined with support from the chicago education system can stem unwanted pregnancies, which in turn reduce, unwanted births/abandoned kids. im guessing that out of the 70% of black kids who grow up without a father, more than 50% end up on the wrong path in some form or another...?

thank you. i always laugh. yup, keef is to blame.

As others have said, it's not a matter of blaming anyone. It's a matter of acknowledging Chief Keef and other rappers like him are an embodiment of that violent culture of lifestyle. It's a mainstream portrayal of that culture and as such serves to legitimize it on a minor level. How? Mainly for the younger kids, who see these rappers as successful because they're rich powerful celebrities that can do whatever they want. And with black children being raised by single parents in about 70% of black households, many are looking for guidance and role models.

Listen to Lupe here. He chooses his words carefully.




EDIT: Just want to thank NT for making this a really successful thread so far. Very respectful debate/discussion on a heated topic. Lets keep it rolling.

thread is appreciated. interesting topic that i feel doesn't get enough attention. also my workload is stupid low so im bored as **** at the office now.

as for the lupe video i like how he describes it as incubation. it really is the best way to picture the rinse and repeat life of ignorance and violence that gets past on from generation to generation within these communities.

Why doesn't the NAACP come in and do something worthwhile aside from being a scapegoat?  Like it's been said by a couple posters above me, people on the streets have no respect for authority- so why does it matter if there's 1 or 10 cop cars on the block?  It's gonna be a never ending cycle for our population if the root cause isn't addressed!  We need supervision in the family.  Don't blame the schools, the cops, the system.  Our president is black- that shows that anything is possible today.  The world is yours, and unfortunately people are never gonna get out of the hood, the violence, the drugs if the problem isn't fixed at home.  Is it the cops job to make sure our kids get the homework done?  Is the teacher responsible for what his or her students do 6 hours after the final bell rings?  

I hate to say it, but I really think the Bill Cosby mentality is the only way to fix problems like this.  We need to stop pointing fingers and be held accountable for our actions!

my man


repped and cosigned. i have been preaching this from the start. if it starts with the kids than the solution starts at home. PERIOD. anything else would be a big help but wouldn't solve the problem fully, you need to start at the source. the same way children aren't born racist, the same way they aren't born violent and rachet. this non snitching, violent, gang life is taught, plain and simple. if you have a kid, you be responsible for that kid. (with that said, if you can't be responsible for a kid, use a ******g condom ) make sure that kid knows that the keef way isn't poppin and that it will only land you in jail or in the earth.

Lets be clear, im talking about black folks. Yes, black. Im lying or sugarcoating if i put it any other way. most of the killing is within the black community. and at damn near 50 in 4 weeks into 2013, thats a lotta ******g blacks killing/being killed. the no snitching clause in this mess is just the cherry on top. Now if i sound racist than so be it. I'm black and it pains me to say all this, but wtf am i supposed to say? Give reasons as to why its not black folks fault? Hardships aside, most of these killings aren't survival (food, shelter, etc) related. Its on some ********. And there is no gov't body, law, or social institution to blame more than the people themselves.

If kids are brought up right, then they in turn will instill in their kids the same level of responsibility and desire to make something of themselves in life.and succeed. But if they are brought up with lack of responsible parenting, then it will continue to be a rinse and repeat process and **** will never change.


for reference http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/01/02/us/chicago-killings.html

the thing is it is bigger than that, too many make the assumption that people aren't being accountable but what about the accountability society has to its people? the world we currently live in makes it harder to get by for a whole lot of people, one of the biggest things coming up for a lot of black & latino youth is how early we are introduced/get accustomed to criminalization, and up not getting second chances & opportunities to make good on them if they are given. society seems to have decided this is ok, there definitely something that need to addressed in the culture of impoverished hoods, but to say that it boils down to accountability is naive; how is it my fault that i don't make enough bread to comfortable take care of my family? that i may have to work multiple jobs/long hours that keeps me out touch with what may or may not be going on in my household? education/justice system/globalization/technology/war on drugs has disproportionally affected urban blacks & latinos, all these things are factors; definitely not impossible to overcome but the deck is HEAVILY stacked against you if you are an urban minority and the exceptions make it seem to be easier/more possible than it maybe is. as more people's skills be made obsolete/less valuable by the pace of change maybe people will come around to discussing how we need to proceed together & actually engage in some thoughtfulness on how we balance capitalism/competition with actually caring about what happens to actual people...

strong rebuttal, but challenge accepted. yes society does share some responsibility to the welfare of its people. times are changing. the cost of living has rapidly gone up at a greater rate than the avg salary. this trend is especially hard for those who make at or below min wage and work long hours. their costs are going up but their ability to pay gets harder...i get that. this reason alone it can be hard for parents to do their job as parents, but this isn't to say that even if they had the time, they'd do a good job because they could just as well be as ignorant as the kids running the streets. but why does everyone make it seem like a parent saying "hey i want my kid to get outta this area, outta this life, to do better than what we have now" is impossible? you don't make enough bread because you're at a job that doesn't pay, and in this case its more likely because its a menial job that doesn't require extensive education. so its only logical to conclude that education will generally allow for acquiring higher paying jobs.

assuming many black and latino youth come up in rough areas, early exposure to crime and that street life is an issue def. these rappers who are out there glorifiying it to these same youth are just making the problem worse far worse than it needs to be, but as was stated to me before, keef (example i used) although adding to the problem, isn't the source. he is a product of the environment that incubates this type of mentality.
BUT THAT isn't to say that a kid coming up in this environment can't walk down the right path. To contrast the parent who works long hours, there are many parents who work an eternity but still make sure they do whatever it takes to get their kid to college on a path to success. WORD to Sonya Sotomayor, supreme court justice from the south bx.

job markets are changing, and the demand for more science/medicine related education is skyrocketing. kids need to adjust to the needs to society so they can find a place in it. the resulting effect will allow for more jobs and a stronger economy. engineering professors, and famous scientific minds have been saying this for years.

You could go to the roughest school...doesn't matter. If you succeed in school, you can go to college and its happened many times. America is hard for a minority. But not impossible. But a kid to succeed needs to be pushed to do so. that is the only way. only then will the trend that incubates the violent hood life break. you can't rely solely on social institutions to be 100% responsible for the kid. won't work, word to dookey from the wire.


and last point, how do address ignorance? lotta people in the hood stupid and ignorant as ****, abusing the system to buy **** they can't afford and/or absolutely don't need.

The children aren't being pushed tho. They are being abandoned, or told "Nah, son, this system won't let you rise up, it's not your fault. They are keeping you oppressed. Let's wait for the government to shoot us some more dough." Just the fact that that belief exists, causes many children ,who could've been something, to give up.What these kids need is more motivation and support from their communities. They need to believe that they can succeed in the American system. It is time to assimilate, as I said before, the system can only be changed from within, not from without. Seems like its always a crab in a bucket mentality, where someone makes it out, and doesn't help the others left struggling. I applaud someone like Red, who stated that he works with troubled youths in Chicago. We need more people willing to give up their time to address this situation. But it needs to be addressed directly, with personal situations, and not constant ramblings about how the system is oppressive, life ain't fair, etc.

 

[sreggie101]

in any demographic, background, religion, whatever...IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD CHILDREN, DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN.. its as simple as that. If you are working at a long hour job but aren't making a decent salary than you cannot afford the time and money to dedicate to raising a kid. going against this rule results in what we see today.

Simply asking people to make this logical and rational choice doesn't result in it becoming the norm. 70% of black children are raised in a home without a father. People aren't simply going to stop having relations. What we have seen in NYC as a result of increased availability of birth control may be what we need to see more of in Chicago schools.


Teen Pregnancy down 27% in New York City over the last decade | Health Commissioner Tom Farley credits the new results to contraceptives and teens delaying sexual activity.

NYC schools giving out tens of thousands of doses of the 'morning-after pill' | NYPost

yes you are right, and im going to go ahead on cosign all of this. (at least you saw it as logical and rational ) . i think the increase in availability to contraception combined with support from the chicago education system can stem unwanted pregnancies, which in turn reduce, unwanted births/abandoned kids. im guessing that out of the 70% of black kids who grow up without a father, more than 50% end up on the wrong path in some form or another...?

thank you. i always laugh. yup, keef is to blame.

As others have said, it's not a matter of blaming anyone. It's a matter of acknowledging Chief Keef and other rappers like him are an embodiment of that violent culture of lifestyle. It's a mainstream portrayal of that culture and as such serves to legitimize it on a minor level. How? Mainly for the younger kids, who see these rappers as successful because they're rich powerful celebrities that can do whatever they want. And with black children being raised by single parents in about 70% of black households, many are looking for guidance and role models.

Listen to Lupe here. He chooses his words carefully.




EDIT: Just want to thank NT for making this a really successful thread so far. Very respectful debate/discussion on a heated topic. Lets keep it rolling.

thread is appreciated. interesting topic that i feel doesn't get enough attention. also my workload is stupid low so im bored as **** at the office now.

as for the lupe video i like how he describes it as incubation. it really is the best way to picture the rinse and repeat life of ignorance and violence that gets past on from generation to generation within these communities.

Why doesn't the NAACP come in and do something worthwhile aside from being a scapegoat?  Like it's been said by a couple posters above me, people on the streets have no respect for authority- so why does it matter if there's 1 or 10 cop cars on the block?  It's gonna be a never ending cycle for our population if the root cause isn't addressed!  We need supervision in the family.  Don't blame the schools, the cops, the system.  Our president is black- that shows that anything is possible today.  The world is yours, and unfortunately people are never gonna get out of the hood, the violence, the drugs if the problem isn't fixed at home.  Is it the cops job to make sure our kids get the homework done?  Is the teacher responsible for what his or her students do 6 hours after the final bell rings?  

I hate to say it, but I really think the Bill Cosby mentality is the only way to fix problems like this.  We need to stop pointing fingers and be held accountable for our actions!

my man


repped and cosigned. i have been preaching this from the start. if it starts with the kids than the solution starts at home. PERIOD. anything else would be a big help but wouldn't solve the problem fully, you need to start at the source. the same way children aren't born racist, the same way they aren't born violent and rachet. this non snitching, violent, gang life is taught, plain and simple. if you have a kid, you be responsible for that kid. (with that said, if you can't be responsible for a kid, use a ******g condom ) make sure that kid knows that the keef way isn't poppin and that it will only land you in jail or in the earth.

Lets be clear, im talking about black folks. Yes, black. Im lying or sugarcoating if i put it any other way. most of the killing is within the black community. and at damn near 50 in 4 weeks into 2013, thats a lotta ******g blacks killing/being killed. the no snitching clause in this mess is just the cherry on top. Now if i sound racist than so be it. I'm black and it pains me to say all this, but wtf am i supposed to say? Give reasons as to why its not black folks fault? Hardships aside, most of these killings aren't survival (food, shelter, etc) related. Its on some ********. And there is no gov't body, law, or social institution to blame more than the people themselves.

If kids are brought up right, then they in turn will instill in their kids the same level of responsibility and desire to make something of themselves in life.and succeed. But if they are brought up with lack of responsible parenting, then it will continue to be a rinse and repeat process and **** will never change.


for reference http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/01/02/us/chicago-killings.html

the thing is it is bigger than that, too many make the assumption that people aren't being accountable but what about the accountability society has to its people? the world we currently live in makes it harder to get by for a whole lot of people, one of the biggest things coming up for a lot of black & latino youth is how early we are introduced/get accustomed to criminalization, and up not getting second chances & opportunities to make good on them if they are given. society seems to have decided this is ok, there definitely something that need to addressed in the culture of impoverished hoods, but to say that it boils down to accountability is naive; how is it my fault that i don't make enough bread to comfortable take care of my family? that i may have to work multiple jobs/long hours that keeps me out touch with what may or may not be going on in my household? education/justice system/globalization/technology/war on drugs has disproportionally affected urban blacks & latinos, all these things are factors; definitely not impossible to overcome but the deck is HEAVILY stacked against you if you are an urban minority and the exceptions make it seem to be easier/more possible than it maybe is. as more people's skills be made obsolete/less valuable by the pace of change maybe people will come around to discussing how we need to proceed together & actually engage in some thoughtfulness on how we balance capitalism/competition with actually caring about what happens to actual people...

strong rebuttal, but challenge accepted. yes society does share some responsibility to the welfare of its people. times are changing. the cost of living has rapidly gone up at a greater rate than the avg salary. this trend is especially hard for those who make at or below min wage and work long hours. their costs are going up but their ability to pay gets harder...i get that. this reason alone it can be hard for parents to do their job as parents, but this isn't to say that even if they had the time, they'd do a good job because they could just as well be as ignorant as the kids running the streets. but why does everyone make it seem like a parent saying "hey i want my kid to get outta this area, outta this life, to do better than what we have now" is impossible? you don't make enough bread because you're at a job that doesn't pay, and in this case its more likely because its a menial job that doesn't require extensive education. so its only logical to conclude that education will generally allow for acquiring higher paying jobs.

assuming many black and latino youth come up in rough areas, early exposure to crime and that street life is an issue def. these rappers who are out there glorifiying it to these same youth are just making the problem worse far worse than it needs to be, but as was stated to me before, keef (example i used) although adding to the problem, isn't the source. he is a product of the environment that incubates this type of mentality.
BUT THAT isn't to say that a kid coming up in this environment can't walk down the right path. To contrast the parent who works long hours, there are many parents who work an eternity but still make sure they do whatever it takes to get their kid to college on a path to success. WORD to Sonya Sotomayor, supreme court justice from the south bx.

job markets are changing, and the demand for more science/medicine related education is skyrocketing. kids need to adjust to the needs to society so they can find a place in it. the resulting effect will allow for more jobs and a stronger economy. engineering professors, and famous scientific minds have been saying this for years.

You could go to the roughest school...doesn't matter. If you succeed in school, you can go to college and its happened many times. America is hard for a minority. But not impossible. But a kid to succeed needs to be pushed to do so. that is the only way. only then will the trend that incubates the violent hood life break. you can't rely solely on social institutions to be 100% responsible for the kid. won't work, word to dookey from the wire.


and last point, how do address ignorance? lotta people in the hood stupid and ignorant as ****, abusing the system to buy **** they can't afford and/or absolutely don't need.

The children aren't being pushed tho. They are being abandoned, or told "Nah, son, this system won't let you rise up, it's not your fault. They are keeping you oppressed. Let's wait for the government to shoot us some more dough." Just the fact that that belief exists, causes many children ,who could've been something, to give up.What these kids need is more motivation and support from their communities. They need to believe that they can succeed in the American system. It is time to assimilate, as I said before, the system can only be changed from within, not from without. Seems like its always a crab in a bucket mentality, where someone makes it out, and doesn't help the others left struggling. I applaud someone like Red, who stated that he works with troubled youths in Chicago. We need more people willing to give up their time to address this situation. But it needs to be addressed directly, with personal situations, and not constant ramblings about how the system is oppressive, life ain't fair, etc.

right. so thats what im saying, they need the means and opportunities to make a difference in their lives, but increasing the after school programs and community centers, although would greatly help, will ultimately be meaningless if there isn't a parental figure saying stop ******g around, keep you *** off da streets and in those books, and i ain't playin witcha...

 

[jchambers]

in any demographic, background, religion, whatever...IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD CHILDREN, DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN.. its as simple as that. If you are working at a long hour job but aren't making a decent salary than you cannot afford the time and money to dedicate to raising a kid. going against this rule results in what we see today.

Simply asking people to make this logical and rational choice doesn't result in it becoming the norm. 70% of black children are raised in a home without a father. People aren't simply going to stop having relations. What we have seen in NYC as a result of increased availability of birth control may be what we need to see more of in Chicago schools.


Teen Pregnancy down 27% in New York City over the last decade | Health Commissioner Tom Farley credits the new results to contraceptives and teens delaying sexual activity.

NYC schools giving out tens of thousands of doses of the 'morning-after pill' | NYPost

yes you are right, and im going to go ahead on cosign all of this. (at least you saw it as logical and rational ) . i think the increase in availability to contraception combined with support from the chicago education system can stem unwanted pregnancies, which in turn reduce, unwanted births/abandoned kids. im guessing that out of the 70% of black kids who grow up without a father, more than 50% end up on the wrong path in some form or another...?

thank you. i always laugh. yup, keef is to blame.

As others have said, it's not a matter of blaming anyone. It's a matter of acknowledging Chief Keef and other rappers like him are an embodiment of that violent culture of lifestyle. It's a mainstream portrayal of that culture and as such serves to legitimize it on a minor level. How? Mainly for the younger kids, who see these rappers as successful because they're rich powerful celebrities that can do whatever they want. And with black children being raised by single parents in about 70% of black households, many are looking for guidance and role models.

Listen to Lupe here. He chooses his words carefully.




EDIT: Just want to thank NT for making this a really successful thread so far. Very respectful debate/discussion on a heated topic. Lets keep it rolling.

thread is appreciated. interesting topic that i feel doesn't get enough attention. also my workload is stupid low so im bored as **** at the office now.

as for the lupe video i like how he describes it as incubation. it really is the best way to picture the rinse and repeat life of ignorance and violence that gets past on from generation to generation within these communities.

Why doesn't the NAACP come in and do something worthwhile aside from being a scapegoat?  Like it's been said by a couple posters above me, people on the streets have no respect for authority- so why does it matter if there's 1 or 10 cop cars on the block?  It's gonna be a never ending cycle for our population if the root cause isn't addressed!  We need supervision in the family.  Don't blame the schools, the cops, the system.  Our president is black- that shows that anything is possible today.  The world is yours, and unfortunately people are never gonna get out of the hood, the violence, the drugs if the problem isn't fixed at home.  Is it the cops job to make sure our kids get the homework done?  Is the teacher responsible for what his or her students do 6 hours after the final bell rings?  

I hate to say it, but I really think the Bill Cosby mentality is the only way to fix problems like this.  We need to stop pointing fingers and be held accountable for our actions!

my man


repped and cosigned. i have been preaching this from the start. if it starts with the kids than the solution starts at home. PERIOD. anything else would be a big help but wouldn't solve the problem fully, you need to start at the source. the same way children aren't born racist, the same way they aren't born violent and rachet. this non snitching, violent, gang life is taught, plain and simple. if you have a kid, you be responsible for that kid. (with that said, if you can't be responsible for a kid, use a ******g condom ) make sure that kid knows that the keef way isn't poppin and that it will only land you in jail or in the earth.

Lets be clear, im talking about black folks. Yes, black. Im lying or sugarcoating if i put it any other way. most of the killing is within the black community. and at damn near 50 in 4 weeks into 2013, thats a lotta ******g blacks killing/being killed. the no snitching clause in this mess is just the cherry on top. Now if i sound racist than so be it. I'm black and it pains me to say all this, but wtf am i supposed to say? Give reasons as to why its not black folks fault? Hardships aside, most of these killings aren't survival (food, shelter, etc) related. Its on some ********. And there is no gov't body, law, or social institution to blame more than the people themselves.

If kids are brought up right, then they in turn will instill in their kids the same level of responsibility and desire to make something of themselves in life.and succeed. But if they are brought up with lack of responsible parenting, then it will continue to be a rinse and repeat process and **** will never change.


for reference http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/01/02/us/chicago-killings.html

the thing is it is bigger than that, too many make the assumption that people aren't being accountable but what about the accountability society has to its people? the world we currently live in makes it harder to get by for a whole lot of people, one of the biggest things coming up for a lot of black & latino youth is how early we are introduced/get accustomed to criminalization, and up not getting second chances & opportunities to make good on them if they are given. society seems to have decided this is ok, there definitely something that need to addressed in the culture of impoverished hoods, but to say that it boils down to accountability is naive; how is it my fault that i don't make enough bread to comfortable take care of my family? that i may have to work multiple jobs/long hours that keeps me out touch with what may or may not be going on in my household? education/justice system/globalization/technology/war on drugs has disproportionally affected urban blacks & latinos, all these things are factors; definitely not impossible to overcome but the deck is HEAVILY stacked against you if you are an urban minority and the exceptions make it seem to be easier/more possible than it maybe is. as more people's skills be made obsolete/less valuable by the pace of change maybe people will come around to discussing how we need to proceed together & actually engage in some thoughtfulness on how we balance capitalism/competition with actually caring about what happens to actual people...

strong rebuttal, but challenge accepted. yes society does share some responsibility to the welfare of its people. times are changing. the cost of living has rapidly gone up at a greater rate than the avg salary. this trend is especially hard for those who make at or below min wage and work long hours. their costs are going up but their ability to pay gets harder...i get that. this reason alone it can be hard for parents to do their job as parents, but this isn't to say that even if they had the time, they'd do a good job because they could just as well be as ignorant as the kids running the streets. but why does everyone make it seem like a parent saying "hey i want my kid to get outta this area, outta this life, to do better than what we have now" is impossible? you don't make enough bread because you're at a job that doesn't pay, and in this case its more likely because its a menial job that doesn't require extensive education. so its only logical to conclude that education will generally allow for acquiring higher paying jobs.

assuming many black and latino youth come up in rough areas, early exposure to crime and that street life is an issue def. these rappers who are out there glorifiying it to these same youth are just making the problem worse far worse than it needs to be, but as was stated to me before, keef (example i used) although adding to the problem, isn't the source. he is a product of the environment that incubates this type of mentality.
BUT THAT isn't to say that a kid coming up in this environment can't walk down the right path. To contrast the parent who works long hours, there are many parents who work an eternity but still make sure they do whatever it takes to get their kid to college on a path to success. WORD to Sonya Sotomayor, supreme court justice from the south bx.

job markets are changing, and the demand for more science/medicine related education is skyrocketing. kids need to adjust to the needs to society so they can find a place in it. the resulting effect will allow for more jobs and a stronger economy. engineering professors, and famous scientific minds have been saying this for years.

You could go to the roughest school...doesn't matter. If you succeed in school, you can go to college and its happened many times. America is hard for a minority. But not impossible. But a kid to succeed needs to be pushed to do so. that is the only way. only then will the trend that incubates the violent hood life break. you can't rely solely on social institutions to be 100% responsible for the kid. won't work, word to dookey from the wire.


and last point, how do address ignorance? lotta people in the hood stupid and ignorant as ****, abusing the system to buy **** they can't afford and/or absolutely don't need.

The children aren't being pushed tho. They are being abandoned, or told "Nah, son, this system won't let you rise up, it's not your fault. They are keeping you oppressed. Let's wait for the government to shoot us some more dough." Just the fact that that belief exists, causes many children ,who could've been something, to give up.What these kids need is more motivation and support from their communities. They need to believe that they can succeed in the American system. It is time to assimilate, as I said before, the system can only be changed from within, not from without. Seems like its always a crab in a bucket mentality, where someone makes it out, and doesn't help the others left struggling. I applaud someone like Red, who stated that he works with troubled youths in Chicago. We need more people willing to give up their time to address this situation. But it needs to be addressed directly, with personal situations, and not constant ramblings about how the system is oppressive, life ain't fair, etc.

right. so thats what im saying, they need the means and opportunities to make a difference in their lives, but increasing the after school programs and community centers, although would greatly help, will ultimately be meaningless if there isn't a parental figure saying stop ******g around, keep you *** off da streets and in those books, and i ain't playin witcha...

I agree, that's why I said that throwing money at the issue won't help. Community leaders and parents need to get involved. After school programs and community centers do help, but without the right people there pushing these kids in the right direction, no positive progress can be made. The focus needs to be on changing the mentality that allows these kids to think that murder is ok and that there is no way out of their situation.

 

[kaygee6]

Chicago should maybe look to model NYC with the broken windows theory. For those that do not know what is: The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime. Therefore, start locking people up for little crimes before they escalate into something more serious. I believe that this would be a good start to a city that has endured so much.

 

[jchambers]

And there we have an actual proposed solution to the problem, rather than a debate on causes or the nature of the system. These are the avenues of discussion that need to be opened on this issue,if any practical solution is to be reached.


"The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime.

The theory was introduced in a 1982 article by social scientists James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling. Since then it has been subject to great debate both within the social sciences and in the public sphere. The theory has been used as a motivation for several reforms in criminal policy.

The broken windows theory has received support from several empirical studies. At the same time it has also been the subject of a large body of criticism."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

 

[dipsetgeneral]

It's not particularly Chicago, it's an African American mindset. Territorial hostility over a place you haven't even built your damn self. Jus' pure stupidity, I can't even explain it fellas.

 

[25thhour]

It's not particularly Chicago, it's an African American mindset. Territorial hostility over a place you haven't even built your damn self. Jus' pure stupidity, I can't even explain it fellas.

Please shut up.

 

[kaygee6]

JChambers- Also the SARA model would be another good way of analyzing this problem. For those that dont know the SARA model is an acronym for Scanning Analysis response and Assestment. I did my thesis on reducing robberies in the District of Columbia and I am sure this can work if implemented correctly in Chicago. Shoot let me go there and I will show them how it is done.

 

[-Red-]

Chicago should maybe look to model NYC with the broken windows theory. For those that do not know what is: The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime. Therefore, start locking people up for little crimes before they escalate into something more serious. I believe that this would be a good start to a city that has endured so much.

And there we have an actual proposed solution to the problem, rather than a debate on causes or the nature of the system. These are the avenues of discussion that need to be opened on this issue,if any practical solution is to be reached.


"The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime.

The theory was introduced in a 1982 article by social scientists James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling. Since then it has been subject to great debate both within the social sciences and in the public sphere. The theory has been used as a motivation for several reforms in criminal policy.

The broken windows theory has received support from several empirical studies. At the same time it has also been the subject of a large body of criticism."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

Broken windows policing has been thoroughly exposed as ineffective within criminology...

In fact, various approaches to law enforcement as a whole have very little demonstrable effect on crime rates or levels of violence in general...

 

[-Red-]

Excellent post. One of the issues that has changed the dynamics within the Black community since the Civil Rights Movement is that the Black middle and upper classes have been able to take advantage of the gains won in the movement and some of the concessions forced by the subsequent Black Power movement while the impoverished Black masses have been locked out from these same opportunities and resources. Thus, the Black community is less monolithic now (in the sense that the issues and priorities facing different strata of the community are different) than it ever has been...

I view it as a situation where concessions were given in order to appease or oblige an increasingly hostile crowd. It wasn't at all an attempt to rectify any problems or shortcomings, or to create equality. Whites continued to climb the ladder of success while blacks were now allowed to climb up out of the hole they were put in. I say that to say this, of course the masses were shut out, left behind. People forget the playing field was never leveled while they're worried about welfare states and affirmative action.

The black community is less monolithic because american society is individualistic. The successful don't become successful through civic mindedness. It's just a flood of selfishness and materialism in this country. Our culture and institutions just churn out competitors in the name of progress and national world dominance. In a very simplistic sense, our neglect for the people in our community and just people in general is a byproduct of capitalism running efficiently. This goes back to your comments about needing a systematic change. But i don't know man, seems like we need more than change, more like a reset button. Even then, you still have a certain mindset or instinct ingrained in those already living on this planet that is adverse to the change we are talking about.

It's so far gone at this point it's not even about poverty or lack of opportunity or having a dead end life. It's cultural. While these kids may not be rich or even well of by any means a significant amount of violence is being caused by kids who have a home to go to. Kids that are not even in the realm of starving. In the most impoverished of areas, the absolute worst of the worst, a kid may be forced to join a gang or face becoming a victim on a daily basis if he is not affiliated. A victim of others in the same environment that may literally be starving or at least severely lacking in basic necessities. Perhaps you can have a few crumbs if half the people in our neighborhood got your back and the other half know it's not just you they're messing with. Let's not forget that's how this type of violence all began and how poverty relates to it in a historical sense. You still have those desperate situations these days, the extremely poor. But you also have celebrities with millions of dollars talking that gang nonsense. And every little wanna be cultural competitor inbetween getting caught in the middle of the glamorous and the real "bout that life" ****. It's the whole life imitating art or art imitating life cycle, and regardless of what came first it's done nothing but enhance the scope of it all, with real life, often fatal consequences.

Someone in here previously stated that after slavery, African Americans got together and started their own economies and were very successful. What happened after that is the welfare state and the belief that nobody is responsible for their own actions and that it is the government's responsibility to take care of everybody.

No bro, thats not what happened. You're really gonna come in here and make things up off the top of your head about a subject you know nothing about just to try to justify your narrow world view? What you are doing now is just regurgitating what you have heard others say, which resonated with you because our entire way of life depends on us all having full confidence that the land of opportunity and equality fulfills individual goals in accordance with an individuals hard work. When really it's just propaganda to make sure everyone works hard, and in turn make sure capitalism works. Individualistic, boot-strap mentality is a key motivation for our economic system. It's unamerican to think otherwise, it's borderline communist, america is the greatest country on earth because of the way our system of democracy/capitaism operates. Such strong conceptual propaganda is why there is such a gap between rich and poor and why you will probably dismiss what I am trying to say in this post.

I agree. Like I stated in my other post, the current situation is a direct product of our capitalist system and our value of profits over people. This individualism and materialism, as you alluded to, have become ingrained in us to the point that these "values" color all of our human relationships with one another at all levels. That is why it is this system that must be fundamentally changed in order to effect change in our communities and in our society. And without a doubt this is no easy undertaking as this is the foundation of a system that will, naturally, do whatever it can to perpetuate itself. But ultimately it must be done or as a nation we will crumble under the weight of our own greed and possessions...

 

[-Red-]

Double...

 

[-Red-]

in reading all this, i didn't see a solution. just criticism. so i ask you, how do you see this problem ending? (not trying to be a ****, just want to know what you think the answer is to all this, sincerely)

i underlined ur first point because its a strong argument. to be clear the solution does start at home. if the parents were able to dedicated a normal amount of hours to their kids, and if they have the right mindset, then the repeated stagnant problem we see today would start to dissipate. i also agree that in turn, parents who can't afford the time to raise their children because they are working so much will ultimately have kids who grow up via outside influences...aka the streets. and there are def social/economical/historical reasons as to the current status of the black/latino community. but if this isn't the parents fault than where do you fix the problem?

in any demographic, background, religion, whatever...IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD CHILDREN, DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN.. its as simple as that. If you are working at a long hour job but aren't making a decent salary than you cannot afford the time and money to dedicate to raising a kid. going against this rule results in what we see today.

Why should having children be a luxury that only the rich should be able to afford? In the wealthiest country in the world no less? Why should such wealth be concentrated in the hands of so few people while other people in this very country are literally homeless and hungry and others can barely afford food, clothing, and shelter? We're talking about millions of people here. Why is there a ghetto or barrio in the first place, the existence of which can influence children?

These are the questions we need to be asking and ultimately addressing if we want real solutions to the issues endemic in our society the way it is currently structured...

 

[-Red-]

strong rebuttal, but challenge accepted. yes society does share some responsibility to the welfare of its people. times are changing. the cost of living has rapidly gone up at a greater rate than the avg salary. this trend is especially hard for those who make at or below min wage and work long hours. their costs are going up but their ability to pay gets harder...i get that. this reason alone it can be hard for parents to do their job as parents, but this isn't to say that even if they had the time, they'd do a good job because they could just as well be as ignorant as the kids running the streets. but why does everyone make it seem like a parent saying "hey i want my kid to get outta this area, outta this life, to do better than what we have now" is impossible? you don't make enough bread because you're at a job that doesn't pay, and in this case its more likely because its a menial job that doesn't require extensive education. so its only logical to conclude that education will generally allow for acquiring higher paying jobs.

assuming many black and latino youth come up in rough areas, early exposure to crime and that street life is an issue def. these rappers who are out there glorifiying it to these same youth are just making the problem worse far worse than it needs to be, but as was stated to me before, keef (example i used) although adding to the problem, isn't the source. he is a product of the environment that incubates this type of mentality.
BUT THAT isn't to say that a kid coming up in this environment can't walk down the right path. To contrast the parent who works long hours, there are many parents who work an eternity but still make sure they do whatever it takes to get their kid to college on a path to success. WORD to Sonya Sotomayor, supreme court justice from the south bx.

job markets are changing, and the demand for more science/medicine related education is skyrocketing. kids need to adjust to the needs to society so they can find a place in it. the resulting effect will allow for more jobs and a stronger economy. engineering professors, and famous scientific minds have been saying this for years.

You could go to the roughest school...doesn't matter. If you succeed in school, you can go to college and its happened many times. America is hard for a minority. But not impossible. But a kid to succeed needs to be pushed to do so. that is the only way. only then will the trend that incubates the violent hood life break. you can't rely solely on social institutions to be 100% responsible for the kid. won't work, word to dookey from the wire.


and last point, how do address ignorance? lotta people in the hood stupid and ignorant as ****, abusing the system to buy **** they can't afford and/or absolutely don't need.

The children aren't being pushed tho. They are being abandoned, or told "Nah, son, this system won't let you rise up, it's not your fault. They are keeping you oppressed. Let's wait for the government to shoot us some more dough." Just the fact that that belief exists, causes many children ,who could've been something, to give up.What these kids need is more motivation and support from their communities. They need to believe that they can succeed in the American system. It is time to assimilate, as I said before, the system can only be changed from within, not from without. Seems like its always a crab in a bucket mentality, where someone makes it out, and doesn't help the others left struggling. I applaud someone like Red, who stated that he works with troubled youths in Chicago. We need more people willing to give up their time to address this situation. But it needs to be addressed directly, with personal situations, and not constant ramblings about how the system is oppressive, life ain't fair, etc.

Why does the "hood" have to exist though? Why are we cool with millions of children being born with the deck stacked entirely against their success? Why do our solutions do nothing to fundamentally change those circumstances?

I agree that the situation does need to be addressed directly, that is, through direct action by the people in these communities to fundamentally alter the power dynamics in this country...

 

[jordan23dotcom]

^^ there's the problem. The "hood" was created by the people living in it.

 

[-Red-]

^^ there's the problem. The "hood" was created by the people living in it.

PLEASE tell me you don't believe that...

 

[jordan23dotcom]

^ I've lived in it and from my experience YES I believe that. I've seen people broke as you can believe selling food stamps for Jordan's. I've known grown men refusing to work at McDonalds because its "***** work" yet don't have a penny to their name. I've know grown women have kids with whoever just to gain extra child support and government help.


Can I speak for everyone? No, but IMO, which I'm entitled to, YES.

I respect your opinion and the others that have posted in here, but I'm speaking from my prospective. Maybe I'm harder on the people because I grew up along side of them and have never thought like what's being assumed all of these people do. There is no excuse for ignorance.

 

[tokes99]

forgive me for the walls of texts, there was so much that i wanted to respond to:

strong rebuttal, but challenge accepted. yes society does share some responsibility to the welfare of its people. times are changing. the cost of living has rapidly gone up at a greater rate than the avg salary. this trend is especially hard for those who make at or below min wage and work long hours. their costs are going up but their ability to pay gets harder...i get that. this reason alone it can be hard for parents to do their job as parents, but this isn't to say that even if they had the time, they'd do a good job because they could just as well be as ignorant as the kids running the streets. but why does everyone make it seem like a parent saying "hey i want my kid to get outta this area, outta this life, to do better than what we have now" is impossible? you don't make enough bread because you're at a job that doesn't pay, and in this case its more likely because its a menial job that doesn't require extensive education. so its only logical to conclude that education will generally allow for acquiring higher paying jobs.

assuming many black and latino youth come up in rough areas, early exposure to crime and that street life is an issue def. these rappers who are out there glorifiying it to these same youth are just making the problem worse far worse than it needs to be, but as was stated to me before, keef (example i used) although adding to the problem, isn't the source. he is a product of the environment that incubates this type of mentality.
BUT THAT isn't to say that a kid coming up in this environment can't walk down the right path. To contrast the parent who works long hours, there are many parents who work an eternity but still make sure they do whatever it takes to get their kid to college on a path to success. WORD to Sonya Sotomayor, supreme court justice from the south bx.

exception does not disprove the norm...and it isn't just the exposure/seeing criminal activity around, it is ACTUALLY BEING MADE criminals through going through metal detectors, random stop & frisks, anti-loitering laws, security & police being ever present regardless of whether it is actually necessary (yet never being around when YOU need help) you are almost assumed guilty and have to prove your innocence, not the other way around; coming up like that might make you BELIEVE that is what you are...

job markets are changing, and the demand for more science/medicine related education is skyrocketing. kids need to adjust to the needs to society so they can find a place in it. the resulting effect will allow for more jobs and a stronger economy. engineering professors, and famous scientific minds have been saying this for years.

very true, that why i brought up this:

i heard something recently in a discussion about culture/race that was pretty interesting, it would seem that many of the blacks & latinos from less privileged backgrounds (it was unclear if the same was true of those from more privileged backgrounds) go into fields that aren't as high paying/'valuable' like education, social studies, etc. while asians generally tend to pursue things in the STEM fields which pay more and are seen as more valuable. it just got thinking why that would be true...

i think many people from the hood who 'make out' who could be doing some otherwise more lucrative 'new economy' things end up coming back to these under served communities as social workers, educator, and the like; maybe in effort to try to give back?

You could go to the roughest school...doesn't matter. If you succeed in school, you can go to college and its happened many times. America is hard for a minority. But not impossible. But a kid to succeed needs to be pushed to do so. that is the only way. only then will the trend that incubates the violent hood life break. you can't rely solely on social institutions to be 100% responsible for the kid. won't work, word to dookey from the wire.


and last point, how do address ignorance? lotta people in the hood stupid and ignorant as ****, abusing the system to buy **** they can't afford and/or absolutely don't need.

The children aren't being pushed tho. They are being abandoned, or told "Nah, son, this system won't let you rise up, it's not your fault. They are keeping you oppressed. Let's wait for the government to shoot us some more dough." Just the fact that that belief exists, causes many children ,who could've been something, to give up.What these kids need is more motivation and support from their communities. They need to believe that they can succeed in the American system. It is time to assimilate, as I said before, the system can only be changed from within, not from without. Seems like its always a crab in a bucket mentality, where someone makes it out, and doesn't help the others left struggling. I applaud someone like Red, who stated that he works with troubled youths in Chicago. We need more people willing to give up their time to address this situation. But it needs to be addressed directly, with personal situations, and not constant ramblings about how the system is oppressive, life ain't fair, etc.

right. so thats what im saying, they need the means and opportunities to make a difference in their lives, but increasing the after school programs and community centers, although would greatly help, will ultimately be meaningless if there isn't a parental figure saying stop ******g around, keep you *** off da streets and in those books, and i ain't playin witcha...

I agree, that's why I said that throwing money at the issue won't help. Community leaders and parents need to get involved. After school programs and community centers do help, but without the right people there pushing these kids in the right direction, no positive progress can be made. The focus needs to be on changing the mentality that allows these kids to think that murder is ok and that there is no way out of their situation.

[/QUOTE]

you said yourself it IS hard for minorities (but even HARDER if you don't have $$$, & much less harder if you do have access to to $$$), see response to the sotamayor comment, i'm not all that worried about the exceptional (i think it is very telling that the 1st black president is of mixed heritage, that his father was african & not black may have given him a different perspective), most are not exceptional, most of us are completely & utterly average (and to reframe the discussion, most black & brown folk are doing ok, but could be doing better; i.e more inline with what on average their white counterparts are making/worth) ignorance & people buying things they don't need is not just a minority thing it is an AMERICAN THING, that is how we got into the financial crisis...

to say that MOST people in these places are actively encouraging the children to be lazy or not to want better is a just a wild characterization of people. no doubt some people will try to take advantage of the system, but i just don't think that number is all that large and those cases stand out because they are easy to gossip about; vast majority of people who need and depend on these programs are inconspicuous, their stories go untold. there may need to be a mentality change, but the mentality didn't come from no where; it was a response to things that have been/are going on in these communities. if i'm asking you to put thread through a needle, but at the same time i'm throwing punches at you, it won't matter how much you focus, it's going to be REALLY difficult for you to succeed as long as i'm throwing different punches at you.

the fact of the matter is the system IS stacked against anyone who doesn't have money, it just so happens that a lot of black & brown people lack money. as far as discipline goes, we all know the stereotypes there, comedians base whole routines on black parents being more strict than others!!! i recall coming up, as a person of color you sometimes get the indirect message (sometimes it is point blankly stated to you) from family, friends, teachers, coaches, that you will have to work twice as hard to get anything because of your skin color to prove yourself while maybe not being as valued as your white counterpart; or don't mess up because you reflect poorly on 'us.' and lets say you do make it to higher education, a lot of black & brown students may come from schools that have ill prepared them for college courses & university life and thus find themselves back at start with large debt but not really anything to show for it. when you combine this w/the FACT that today's educational system was built on a manufacturing, dictating & memorization model, not an analytical & creative one that encourages skepticism, exploration, discussion & analysis, you can see how this may not bode well for people from these areas having difficulty adjusting to the shift of the need of the new economy.

you definitely cannot 'just throw money' at this problem but those after school & community center programs do play a vital role for many youth by just giving kids places to be where there is positive supervision & off the streets (in the not too recent past there was like a midnight hoops league that included gang members & police officers in chicago that was credited with improving relations between the all parties involved). we are ultimately products of our environments, and it is easier to get caught up if the life if you youngin' hanging out on the west/south side of the chi than if you live out in burbs, but if you make a mistake in the burbs you are much more likely to recover from it; and that inequity is part of the problem...

the whole personal accountability/responsibility schtick sounds real nice, it fits the narrative that we WANT to tell ourselves, and it isn't untrue, it just isn't nearly as true as it is made out to be; to make an extreme example, the potus' daughters will likely have EVERY opportunity to be successful in this world, while children born to day laborers in the slums of calcutta are going to have, on orders of magnitude, much less opportunity just by virtue of who their parents are & where there are born/live. this isn't to say that a child from calcutta couldn't make a way to find success, but opportunities will be far fewer, if at all; as well as maybe need some fall just right. that is apart of what is at issue here, opportunity, and as the economy continues to leave people in urban communities fewer opportunities to provide for themselves these communities will continue to degrade, and if the land they occupy becomes of value then eventually gentrification will further push them out of view...

Chicago should maybe look to model NYC with the broken windows theory. For those that do not know what is: The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime. Therefore, start locking people up for little crimes before they escalate into something more serious. I believe that this would be a good start to a city that has endured so much.

And there we have an actual proposed solution to the problem, rather than a debate on causes or the nature of the system. These are the avenues of discussion that need to be opened on this issue,if any practical solution is to be reached.


"The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm-setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that maintaining and monitoring urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime.

The theory was introduced in a 1982 article by social scientists James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling. Since then it has been subject to great debate both within the social sciences and in the public sphere. The theory has been used as a motivation for several reforms in criminal policy.

The broken windows theory has received support from several empirical studies. At the same time it has also been the subject of a large body of criticism."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

Broken windows policing has been thoroughly exposed as ineffective within criminology...

In fact, various approaches to law enforcement as a whole have very little demonstrable effect on crime rates or levels of violence in general...

too true, while i am not wholly familiar with the theory, i have heard of it and it only really address the superficial and does little to address the economics of of living in the ghetto. so many tactics are based on the #s of getting easy conviction & easy targets that is crazy, once you start to see the hows & whys of these policies you begin to see why things are the way they are

Excellent post. One of the issues that has changed the dynamics within the Black community since the Civil Rights Movement is that the Black middle and upper classes have been able to take advantage of the gains won in the movement and some of the concessions forced by the subsequent Black Power movement while the impoverished Black masses have been locked out from these same opportunities and resources. Thus, the Black community is less monolithic now (in the sense that the issues and priorities facing different strata of the community are different) than it ever has been...

I view it as a situation where concessions were given in order to appease or oblige an increasingly hostile crowd. It wasn't at all an attempt to rectify any problems or shortcomings, or to create equality. Whites continued to climb the ladder of success while blacks were now allowed to climb up out of the hole they were put in. I say that to say this, of course the masses were shut out, left behind. People forget the playing field was never leveled while they're worried about welfare states and affirmative action.

The black community is less monolithic because american society is individualistic. The successful don't become successful through civic mindedness. It's just a flood of selfishness and materialism in this country. Our culture and institutions just churn out competitors in the name of progress and national world dominance. In a very simplistic sense, our neglect for the people in our community and just people in general is a byproduct of capitalism running efficiently. This goes back to your comments about needing a systematic change. But i don't know man, seems like we need more than change, more like a reset button. Even then, you still have a certain mindset or instinct ingrained in those already living on this planet that is adverse to the change we are talking about.

It's so far gone at this point it's not even about poverty or lack of opportunity or having a dead end life. It's cultural. While these kids may not be rich or even well of by any means a significant amount of violence is being caused by kids who have a home to go to. Kids that are not even in the realm of starving. In the most impoverished of areas, the absolute worst of the worst, a kid may be forced to join a gang or face becoming a victim on a daily basis if he is not affiliated. A victim of others in the same environment that may literally be starving or at least severely lacking in basic necessities. Perhaps you can have a few crumbs if half the people in our neighborhood got your back and the other half know it's not just you they're messing with. Let's not forget that's how this type of violence all began and how poverty relates to it in a historical sense. You still have those desperate situations these days, the extremely poor. But you also have celebrities with millions of dollars talking that gang nonsense. And every little wanna be cultural competitor inbetween getting caught in the middle of the glamorous and the real "bout that life" ****. It's the whole life imitating art or art imitating life cycle, and regardless of what came first it's done nothing but enhance the scope of it all, with real life, often fatal consequences.

Someone in here previously stated that after slavery, African Americans got together and started their own economies and were very successful. What happened after that is the welfare state and the belief that nobody is responsible for their own actions and that it is the government's responsibility to take care of everybody.

No bro, thats not what happened. You're really gonna come in here and make things up off the top of your head about a subject you know nothing about just to try to justify your narrow world view? What you are doing now is just regurgitating what you have heard others say, which resonated with you because our entire way of life depends on us all having full confidence that the land of opportunity and equality fulfills individual goals in accordance with an individuals hard work. When really it's just propaganda to make sure everyone works hard, and in turn make sure capitalism works. Individualistic, boot-strap mentality is a key motivation for our economic system. It's unamerican to think otherwise, it's borderline communist, america is the greatest country on earth because of the way our system of democracy/capitaism operates. Such strong conceptual propaganda is why there is such a gap between rich and poor and why you will probably dismiss what I am trying to say in this post.

I agree. Like I stated in my other post, the current situation is a direct product of our capitalist system and our value of profits over people. This individualism and materialism, as you alluded to, have become ingrained in us to the point that these "values" color all of our human relationships with one another at all levels. That is why it is this system that must be fundamentally changed in order to effect change in our communities and in our society. And without a doubt this is no easy undertaking as this is the foundation of a system that will, naturally, do whatever it can to perpetuate itself. But ultimately it must be done or as a nation we will crumble under the weight of our own greed and possessions...

exactly, while i don't believe that true communism or socialism can really work (though not sure it couldn't work if given a chance?) there has be a balance between the t'eo(2). that was a REALLY bad pun, but just like man'ti's made up girlfriend, as the world becomes increasingly digital/virtual/less tangible studies have shown that we treat people less like humans & aren't as thoughtful or caring about REAL consequences of our actions when the thing you are dealing with is 'not a real thing.' there are so many examples of economic success/or at least sufficiency when communities come together and work towards being somewhat self-efficient, black wall street, harlem renaissance, chinatowns IN JUST ABOUT EVERY MAJOR CITY! there is a model out there, but for whatever reason it hasn't really worked in too many black & brown urban neighborhoods (outside of ATL?- not really am urban example though)

^ I've lived in it and from my experience YES I believe that. I've seen people broke as you can believe selling food stamps for Jordan's. I've known grown men refusing to work at McDonalds because its "***** work" yet don't have a penny to their name. I've know grown women have kids with whoever just to gain extra child support and government help.


Can I speak for everyone? No, but IMO, which I'm entitled to, YES.

I respect your opinion and the others that have posted in here, but I'm speaking from my prospective. Maybe I'm harder on the people because I grew up along side of them and have never thought like what's being assumed all of these people do. There is no excuse for ignorance.

no one can discount those experiences, there are & ALWAYS WILL BE people who 'game' the system no matter what the system is, but those anecdotal occurrences (which are always are the strongest, especially when negative) should NOT dictate what the system is. to say that the hood was created by the people in it is, shows a lack of understanding of not only history, but also what is actually going on in the world today; don''t let the biases totally obscure the big picture...one of the things about the welfare system is that in some ways it encourages taking advantage of it because of the way it is structured. as an example, it may reward a single parent household because having both parents there may in fact disqualify aid or significantly lower it. please understand that, that is a response to a system not, an inherent flaw of the people that are caught up in it

perhaps the one cultural criticism i do feel is pretty valid in terms of black folk, is that we don't really trust one another, for all the posturing of black solidarity, it just ain't real. maybe that is the sign of progress, that we have been able to assimilate enough to become diverse in our priorities...this is very anecdotal but i remember listening to an interview w/the author of this book Our Black Year: One Family's Quest to Buy Black in America's Racially Divided Economy talk about the difficulty of trying to support black owned business in chicago, in one case a business (i think it was a grocery/produce store) that once she let people know it was black owned --- did worse when people in the neighborhood found out...

 

[victor page]

Wow. 45 murders in January alone. 

This year is on pace to be even worse than last year.

 

[25thhour]

^^ there's the problem. The "hood" was created by the people living in it.

LOL

 

[victor page]

 

[-Red-]

JChambers- Also the SARA model would be another good way of analyzing this problem. For those that dont know the SARA model is an acronym for Scanning Analysis response and Assestment. I did my thesis on reducing robberies in the District of Columbia and I am sure this can work if implemented correctly in Chicago. Shoot let me go there and I will show them how it is done.

See this is a big part of my problem with law enforcement "solutions" to crime and violence...

When crime and violence decrease, the police take credit for it citing whatever they're currently doing at the time as the reason for the drop. But when crime and violence increase, the police blame it on an number of other factors, typically gangs, firearms, broken families, drugs, gang or drug "culture," "no snitching," etc. What they fail to realize is that you can't have it both ways...

 

[-Red-]

^ I've lived in it and from my experience YES I believe that. I've seen people broke as you can believe selling food stamps for Jordan's. I've known grown men refusing to work at McDonalds because its "***** work" yet don't have a penny to their name. I've know grown women have kids with whoever just to gain extra child support and government help.


Can I speak for everyone? No, but IMO, which I'm entitled to, YES.

I respect your opinion and the others that have posted in here, but I'm speaking from my prospective. Maybe I'm harder on the people because I grew up along side of them and have never thought like what's being assumed all of these people do. There is no excuse for ignorance.

Bro, no disrespect intended but we're not talking about your favorite music artist or what you think is the best movie of all time. Those are matters of opinion. Making statements about social inequality should be rooted in a thorough examination of history and sociology. This information will ultimately require some interpretation (informed opinion), but opinion based on anecdotes from personal experience with no consideration of history or broader social analysis fails to scratch the surface of the issue...

In this way an "opinion" that the people living in the hood are responsible for its creation ignores important sociohistorical factors shaping the creation and perpetuation of Black urban ghettos, including but not limited to: Black exclusion from labor unions, redlining, racially restrictive covenants, white flight, racial terrorism used by whites to keep Blacks "in their place" in both the South and the North, absentee landlords that allowed their building to deteriorate into slums... often caused by the landlords "cutting up" housing units to profit from the housing shortages in Black communities due to the fact that Black folks could only live in these specific areas, shifts in the national economy that have made the blue collar working class (particularly Black urban males) obsolete, the flight of the Black middle and working classes to formerly all-white areas following the gains of the Civil Rights Movement, landlord arson motivated by insurance payoffs in some cases of which people were killed in their homes, state sponsored terrorism of Black leaders, etc. There are dozens of other factors that could be cited, as well...

I grew up alongside poverty too. The majority of the people and families in these circumstances are not selling food stamps for Jordans and have extra children for meager increases in child support or government assistance. Of course when you see these situations they're going to stay in your mind because the vast majority of poor people just go about their business and you will probably never even know that they're on food stamps...

 

[Velle47]

Well, I think it stems from the family and the government. I'm an African American male,but i'm not the typical African American male based soley on how I was raised. The single parent thing is complete B.S. I say that because my dad has been in prison ever since I was 3 years old. My mom didn't let me use that as an excuse and I appreciate her for that. My mom instilled fear in me as a kid lol I was scared to do anything for fear of what she would do to me. I was raised in the hood if you want to call it that. Every male that's related to me has been to prison or involved in some type of criminal activity. You know about my dad,but my uncle my mom's brother was in prison when I was first born,but he got out and didn't change. Over the years he exposed me to drugs, fist/gun fights, and having no respect for authority(he was running from the police and told me to slam the door.) He also was driving with me in the car while smoking weed. We came to a road block and he did not want to stop so he hit the gas. We ended up crashing and fled on foot. He got caught and went to jail. I was like 4 years old at the time so I went to the ER and was examined. I flew thru the windshield,but I came away with only and busted lip. Am I proud that I went thru this at such a young age? No I'm not but it inspired me to be nothing like my dad or uncle. Being raised in a single parent household is possible, but that single parent has to be strong minded. My mom wasn't as strict with my younger brother and I think yall know how he turned out. Might I add the whole music influences people I agree with that because nowadays these whole rappers rap about being real taking about being bout that life and s*** like that. I used to ask my self why music is censored but movies aren't and I came up with a hypothesis when a child watches a movie he knows the person playing the role is an ACTOR, but when a musican raps about something he says it's his life he lived it. So when a child hears that they're going to assume that rapper actually has done what he raps about. We know that isn't true just look at Rick Ross. Parent's need to make sure they're child knows that the rapper is an ENTERTAINER so don't take what they say to heart. I'm not bashing rap music by any means I only listen to rap and not nerd rap or what's playing on the radio nowadays. I listen to everything from N.W.A. to Project Pat to Ganksta N.I.P. , but I know they are only entertainers.

I say the government is responsible for the conditions of African Americans. America sets minorities up to fail. Look at the cost of tuition to go to college. $6,000 for tuition alone, doesnt include meal plan, living expenses,etc. By making college almost impossible for low income people to attend that is a major handicap to this system alone. I would be in favor of raising taxes in order to allow everyone to attend college for free atleast tuition. Many other countries do this so why can't the "Best Country In The World."Government assistance is another handicap to people. The system should be changed. Stop giving people supplies because the supplies runs out eventually. Instead help people find jobs. I didn't think about this until I took a sociology class, but the workplace finds a way to discriminate against minorities even if they haven't seen the candidate. By looking at the name for instance, if you see an application that says Jamaal Brown it is safe to assume that candidate is an African American male. Many employers will throw the application away based on the name,address,or zip code. We have demographics for a reason. It's not just minorities affected by actions like this, but women as well. That's why a woman can make less than a man who has the same title of her.

So the minorities are at fault for the crime, but the government is also as well. Minorites need to stop taking pride in being ignorant and start taking pride in getting an education. The government needs to stop being biased based on a person's ethnic background.

 

[Nike Jordan]

Too many Chief Keefs and not enough Commons.